Best greataxe assassin build

[Spacehamster]

So my level 6 champion fighter is at a desicive crossroads and I want to take him in the direction of a great axe assassin. Initial build idea were 16 fighter 3 assassin 1 knowledge cleric(for bless and 2skills/expertise), but now I am pondering if 12 fighter 5 hunter ranger(hunters mark and horde breaker) and 3 assassin.

So what I wonder I guess is how would you experienced folk build an assassin that uses "brute force weapons" instead of fiddly finesse weapons?

He is half Orc with 20/18/18/16/16/14 stats and alert and GWM feat.

[Specter]

I wouldn't, because Sneak Attack requires finesse or ranged weapons to work.

But if you have convinced your DM to let you use SA with an axe, what you absolutely need is Stealth and Perception expertised, and the Alert feat (Assassinate requires winning initiative). The True Assassin Handbook (google it) helps you further.

[Spacehamster]

I wouldn't, because Sneak Attack requires finesse or ranged weapons to work.

But if you have convinced your DM to let you use SA with an axe, what you absolutely need is Stealth and Perception expertised, and the Alert feat (Assassinate requires winning initiative). The True Assassin Handbook (google it) helps you further.

Well 4d6 sneak attack on a crit is like a fart in the wind compared to 3d12 + 5 + 10(gwm), on a nova with triggered horde breaker on a surprise round you get 8 attacks that totals 24d12 + 40 + 80(gwm). I would take that over a small amount of sneak attack die on just 1 attack and a smaller weapon die on all other attacks any day. :)

And yeah remember reading the true assassin guide before but if I recall correctly that were very paladin heavy and that does not fit my concept, I want a char that does not run out of steam after smiting a couple of times. ^.^

At level 9 when you get assassinate with my build you get with no nova without using gwm on a surprise round 9d12 + 15 which is pretty neat using no resources, also +9 initiative will get me advantage on attacks the first round of combat from assassin lvl 3. So even without surprise it is a nice boon to first turn damage.

[Draken]

Hmm... Quick warning. Horde Breaker is once per turn (on your turn only, so not useable on Attacks of Opportunity either). It looks like you are trying to use it on every attack.

[smcmike]

Hmm... Quick warning. Horde Breaker is once per turn (on your turn only, so not useable on Attacks of Opportunity either). It looks like you are trying to use it on every attack.

No, he's only using it once:

Action: attack x 3 + HB = 4 attacks.
Action surge: another 3 attacks
GWM bonus action: 1 attack.

Total of 8 x 3d12 = 24d12 + (15x8)

[Naanomi]

I like a simple Half-Orc Barbarian 1/Rogue 3/Barbarian +16
Totem barbarian: elk/wolf/tiger
Expertise with Stealth (and whatever)

Point buy as 17/15/16/8/8/8
ASI: +1 Str/Dex, +2 Str, Great Weapon Mastery, Alert
Auto-Crit for 6d12+19, three attacks, add poison if available

[Corran]

So my level 6 champion fighter is at a desicive crossroads and I want to take him in the direction of a great axe assassin. Initial build idea were 16 fighter 3 assassin 1 knowledge cleric(for bless and 2skills/expertise), but now I am pondering if 12 fighter 5 hunter ranger(hunters mark and horde breaker) and 3 assassin.

So what I wonder I guess is how would you experienced folk build an assassin that uses "brute force weapons" instead of fiddly finesse weapons?

He is half Orc with 20/18/18/16/16/14 stats and alert and GWM feat.
Those are some nice rolls! That said, let's start:

First and foremost you will need to take 3 levels in rogue asap, so that you can bring your assassinate online at the earliest level possible (ie level 9). It goes without mention that if you are not already proficient in stealth, you should use your new skill proficiency gained by multiclassing into rogue to train yourself in stealth. Also, expertise in stealth. So far, so good, all relatively straightforward and simple.

Let's have a look at the rest of the rogue features you gain. You can use the second expertise in one of perception/deception/athletics, depending on what approach you want your character to take when approaching enemies. Given that you lack options such as invisibility, spider climb and teleportations, I would probably expertise athletics, and have my character assassinate commando-style. But all other options are good, even some I didnt mention, such as intimidate. It depends on your playstyle, you get the picture. You also gain some tool proficiencies, and let me make a special note on the poisoner's kit. Assassinate relies more on damage dice rather than flat damage (not that flat damage is bad), so any amount of extra dice you can add to the mix, it is definitely a step in the right direction. So make sure you are always packing some poison so that you can add some extra damage dice which will get doubled when assassinating. Even it is only basic poison, and hence just a d4, do it, you need all the extra damage you can get.

Now let me talk about the next most important thing you need to opt for, after taking these 3 levels in rogue. It concerns feats. You should take both alert and lucky with your next two ASIs. All assassins need these two feats. Alert improves drastically your initiative among other things, which is what keys off your assassinating in the first place (bad initiative, no assassinating for you), and lucky, well, lucky is just amazing for assassins. You roll poorly at initiative? Reroll. You roll poorly on one of those surprise round attacks? Reroll. You roll poorly for stealth when approaching a target you want to surprise? Reroll. Plus you are a GWMaster. You need all the rerolls you can get. Plus all the other benefits. Bad save? Reroll. You get the picture. Plus your stats are already great, so there is no dire need to boost them. Use your next two ASIs to grab these two feats. (Edit: Oh, you already have the alert feat, that's good.)

At this point, let me make some additional notes. You AC will inevitably lessen, as you will have to drop your heavy armor (presumably you were wearing a full plate), and instead don a breastplate or a studded leather (with your 18 in dex it is essentially the same thing). Choose one out of these two, the one that most appeals to you stylewise. I am sure you dont want to have disadvantage on stealth checks. And yes, medium armor master is not that bad of a feat, but alert and lucky have priority as I pointed out above. That sets your AC at 16.
Might I also suggest that you retrain your fighting style from GWF to mariner, if UA is allowed and if you are permitted to retrain that small aspect of your character. You are no longer going for a pure fighter build and you wont get (or will delay significantly) any extra attacks, so the value of attack minded fighting styles becomes of a lesser value. And the +1 to AC will come in very handy with what I will propose later on this post. It also mitigates the cost of you changing to a lighter type of armor, and the additional benefits regarding swimming and climbing speed, are not only very thematic to your whole concept and to your race, but they will also be quite helpful in many an occassion.
One last note regards assassintaing itself. Sure, with a greataxe you wont be able to profit from the 2d6 (doubled when assassinating) sneak attack damage, but GWM does have some nice synergy with assassinating, meaning that when you hit on a surprise round, exactly because that hit is treated as a crit, you can use your bonus action for a third attack. So there is that at least, and it is a very good boost to your assassination damage. Probably you know that already, just wanted to make sure you were aware of it.

So, we stand at fighter (champion) 6/ rogue (assassin) 3. Where to now? Well, there are many routes. Sure, you could add a couple of ranger levels for horde breaker and hunter's mark, or a level in cleric for bless and other first level spells. Not that either of these are bad options, but I wouldnt do any of it. Horde breaker, while great when used with GWM, needs to target a creature next to the one you hit, so it wont always apply to your assassination. Good enough for normal encounters, where it will see more use, but you can do better imo. And bless and hunter's mark are both good spells regarding your concentration, the first one for normal encounters and the second for extra damage when you are assassinating, but again, you can do better. More levels in rogue perhaps? Sure, to gain one of the much needed feats at level 10 would be great, and uncanny dodge is very tempting, so are the two additional uses of expertise at rogue 6. And you could use your ever increasing sneak attack damage whenever you have to use your longbow, with a dex of 18 you can switch from melee to range and vice versa as often as you like. Increasing the potency of your back up strategy is not that bad, surely. But again, you can still do better, much much better.

What about continuing with your fighter progression? You could do that immediately after grabbing those 3 levels in rogue, but imo you should delay it. Why? It is rather simple. If you just continue with your fighter progression after taking 3 levels in rogue, you would just be like any other normal fighter, who is 3 levels behind the power curve in order to get the perk of assassinating. Why do that, if you can still get this perk, all while you keep on par with what singleclass fighters of your total character level can achieve? You need to add something to the mix, that will both add to your assassinating skills, and to your skills as a frontline fighter. I want to make sure I emphasize this enough. You will want your character to stay relevant to as if you were a singleclass frontline champion, all while he can pull off assassinations like a pro. Both aspects are equally important, and you shouldnt trade one for another, nor be mediocre in both. You need to be equally good in both.

How to do that? After you hit level 9 (fighter6/rogue3), take 3 levels in warlock.
If you cannot imagine your character taking warlock levels, or if you cannot or dont want to make it work for some rp reason, then fair enough, it is your perogative, it is your character, and it is your decision ofc. But warlocks do come with some inherent good roleplaying, especially if you decide to multiclass in this class, as it is something that can spark a whole lot of things in the campaign, even a new story arc. Generally it is very interesting to work with the DM and decide on how your character made his pact. Anyway, whatever the case may be regarding your wants, I will still go ahead and list how a 3-level dip in warlock helps you enormously, if not for anything else, just to tempt you to the dark side of multiclassing.

First and foremost, you get hex. Hex is better than hunter's mark, especially when you consider how it can influence your assassination. Before I make the comparison between hex and hunter's mark, let me just say, that you could really use a concentration spell that adds some extra damage in the form of damage dice, as your assassination needs some help. With GWM generating a 3rd attack during surprise rounds, you will add the d6 from hex to 3 attacks, thus adding a total of 6d6 damage to your assassinating. (Edit: Forgot you have action surge, make that 5 attacks at this level, thus hex adding a total of 10d6). Quite a decent amount I would say. You need a spell like that, exactly for that reason. As to why hex is superior to hunter's mark regarding assassinating, hex inflicts a penalty on a chosen ability check of your opponent, so if you wisely choose his dex checks, hex will result in lowering the enemy's initiative, and as I said previously, assassinating relies very heavily on initiative. Hex is a very effective spell for assassins.
Secondly, invisibility. You know which assassins lack invisibility from their arsenal? Only the bad ones! And by bad, I dont mean it alignment-wise. You play in a world where magic presumably is a tool. Use it. You need it. Even if your world is a low-magic one, you get the chance for your character to be special, set apart, shine. Invisibility is just too useful to pass up. No matter how good your stealth is.
Thirdly, darkness and devil's sight. As I mentioned previously, you need some trick to catch up with what you would have been should you not have choose to multiclass. You need a neat little trick to get you back in the game, regarding how well your character performs under normal encounter conditions. You are a GWMaster. You have no maneuvres to help you mitigate the -5 penalty, and although bless would be a good enough way to help you offensively, it will not do much defensively, despite the boost it grants to saves. Besides, getting a level in cleric mainly for this spell, is not worth it, when you can just do the same job and in a more efficient way, all while you get to add tons of other important features and abilities that will benefit you. And I am sure you have heard all sorts of complaints about how cheesy this combo is, but let me tell you from personal experience gained through actual gameplay, that this combo is neither overpowered, nor does it create problems regarding to how smoothly and fast the encounters run. I use it quite a lot with my assassin, and despite my whole group was hesitant at first, I sat them down, I explained how simply it worked (something I actually learned in this forum), and the game runs fast and all is well. I can even point you to a small summary I've made regarding how this tactic changes things in the encounter, if you indeed decide to act on my advice. Anyway, this combo will grant you advantage on attacks, and enemies will attack you with disadvantage. That helps with your GWMastering, and with how your AC was reduced. This is the reason why I advised you earlier in the post to grab mariner for the +1 AC, as the value of that +1 is increased if you factor in the disadvantage on the incoming attacks against you. So now you are harder to hit than a 12th level fighter, and you may have one attack less, but you attack with advantage, which makes up for it. It also restricts several effects from targeting you, like most spells that target saves, as most of them require the caster to actually see the target, as specified in their respective descriptions. So it competes, if not outshines, bless, in that respect too. All in all, you are about as potent as a singleclass fighter of your level would be, once you hit level 12 (that is just one level of being behind the power curve -ie level 11). And if you really want to avoid tanking attacks with disadvantage for some reason, you can always use your bonus action to select to hide (cunning action), thus making yourself practically untargetable (beware of area effects though).
Other potential benefits:
Take pact of the blade for a weapon that counts as magical against creatures with immunities to non magical weapons, but mostly so that you can sneak in your massive greataxe anywhere without even causing the slightest of suspicion. Handy trick for an assassin, hey? Just to show you how important I consider this trick to be, my characer who is an assassin without this neat little trick, and has sorcerer levels instead, spent one of my precious known spells on creation (5th level spell!!!), and one metamagic on subtle, for exactly that reason. To create a weapon when I cannot afford to be seen carrying one.
Also, mask of many faces. Sure you have proficinecy in disguise it from going assassin, and sure you have a good int score and a good deception hopefully, that will help you employ social stealth. But this invocation is a nice addition to your social skills. And it can be used quite nicely along with the cantrips friends. Afterall, there will be times when you need to obtain information in a discrete way, and avoiding the spotlight that the cantrip friends can put you into, via mask of many faces, is important.
You also gain one extra spell apart from the three I already mentioned (hex, invisibility, darkness), pick one you like. myself I like misty step, but there are other good options too, perhaps charm person, though if you take friends and mask of many faces you dont need it. Make a pact with the entity that best fits your character's theme and the story, to gain an extra nice little perk, I would recommend fiend if you were to pick up more than 3 levels in this class, as it has some nice features that play well with assassins (especially dark one's own luck, which can affect initiative among other things), or just go with the great old one if you stick with just 3 levels, for telepathy, if you like these sort of things. And a few cantrips to complement your skills and abilities.

All in all a great 3 level dip in your case. If you are not opposed to it from a roleplaying standpoint, I would highly recommend getting 3 warlock levels after you hit fighter6/assassin3. Thus putting you at fighter6/assassin3/warlock3.


After that, well, we can discuss this when that time comes. I would normally suggest taking the remaining levels in warlock, as I quite favour the additional spell support on assassins (such as scrying and etherealness), but with that many levels in fighter, you woud miss on the big prize, which is etherealness, and which imo is the perfect capstone for an assassin build. Perhaps aim for fighter 11 instead, to get that extra attack at level 17, or perhaps take one more level in warlock and one in rogue, so by 14 level you will have both alert and lucky, and then aim for fighter 11 for the 3rd attack. But my sugggestion is to aim for fighter 6/assassin3/warlock3, and to plan for alert and lucky after that.

Hope this helped.


ps: As to how I would create an assassin that would use a heavy weapon instead of a finesse one, and I was allowed to build him from scratch, here is how I would do it.
We aim for

fighter (battlemaster) 3/ bladelock 5/ rogue (assassin) 3


In the first case, your best bet is to take the remaining levels as a warlock, or at least go up to warlock 13 and take a 4th level in rogue or fighter for a feat, though I think warlock 14 has more valuee in it. I like feylock for gr invisibility as an alternative to darkness, but fiendlock is arguably the better choice (extra points for how dark one's own luck works with assassinate regarding the enemy's initiative). Final build, fighter3 (BM)/ Fiendlock (blade) 14/ rogue (assassin) 3.

The problem of this build is that it takes some time to flourish. My personal advice is to aim for rogue 2/ warlock 3 asap, but you have to either start or throw an early fighter level for medium armor proficiency. Thus being fighter1/rogue2/warlock3 at level 6 (edit: Start as fighter for medium armor and con save prof). The you take 2 more warlock levels for extra extra attack and 1 more rogue level for assassinate, the order is completely up to you, and it depends on if you want to improve your assassination or your fighting during normal encounters first, putting you at fighter1/rogue3/warlock5 at level 9. Then you take 2 more fightr levels, so you have finally the majority of the tricks you can hope for, being a fighter3/warlock5/rogue3 at level 11. Then finish up as a warlock.

Feats.
At this point you only have 1 ASI/feat from warlock 4, which you will take according to my suggested progression at characer level 6 or 7. GWM is a must, but so are feats like alert and lucky. Actor is also a very cool feat for an assassin with your talents, though you might just not have enough room for it. Between these feats and more that I didnt mention, and pumping your ability scores, I would suggest starting vhuman for this much all needed feat, rather than halforc for some minor cool racial features. You need that feat man, you need all the feats you can get. And since warlock 2 offsets the biggest drawbacks of humans in regard to being an assassin (lack of darkvision), we are cool. My starting stats would be (with the racial increases): STR 16, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 13 with 2 more points remaining. I would invest those 1 of my two remaining points to pump con to 13 if I pwas planning on taking the resilient feat, alternatively I would put those 2 points in either int or wis, if I planned on taking the actor feat, or most commonly, I would put those 2 points to charisma and be done with it. Yeah, with alert, lucky and GWM, and assuming vhuman, you only have room for one more feat/ASI, it is tough to spend it on a feat like actor in good consciense, however funny that might be. Resilient could be a good choice for a feat taken at hight level, in which case resilient con is what you have to plan for, as it will also raise your hp and help with some other stuff as well. Or just pump your str to 18 as your last feat. Too many feats that are useful, so little room.


The trouble with almost all multiclassed assassin builds, is that contrary to a pure assassin rogue, they stay behind the power curve for a long part of their careers. This build is marginally excluded from this category, though there is an uneven distribution of power level-wise, meaning that there are still those very big levels that you have to hit in order to be good at what you are supposed to do, and those levels come a bit later than expected.

The truth is, that as assassination goes, there are builds with better damage output, and as far as usefulness in things besides assassination goes, there are other assassin builds that are more powerful. What I personaly like about this particular assassin build, in regards to other assassin builds, is that it gets an easy and painless access to the scrying spell, and that funny enough it is the only assassin build that uses a heavy weapon (greatsword), as opposed yo the other dex-oriented assassin builds.

Would I call it a one-trick pony? Probably yes, but the trick would be that it uses GWM very efficiently, especially when darkness is on. There is some worrying lack of synergy and some overlap or rather antithesis in regard to the functionality of this build, but oh well...

[Specter]

Well 4d6 sneak attack on a crit is like a fart in the wind compared to 3d12 + 5 + 10(gwm), on a nova with triggered horde breaker on a surprise round you get 8 attacks that totals 24d12 + 40 + 80(gwm). I would take that over a small amount of sneak attack die on just 1 attack and a smaller weapon die on all other attacks any day. :)

And yeah remember reading the true assassin guide before but if I recall correctly that were very paladin heavy and that does not fit my concept, I want a char that does not run out of steam after smiting a couple of times. ^.^

At level 9 when you get assassinate with my build you get with no nova without using gwm on a surprise round 9d12 + 15 which is pretty neat using no resources, also +9 initiative will get me advantage on attacks the first round of combat from assassin lvl 3. So even without surprise it is a nice boon to first turn damage.

Fair enough, but without using that Sneak Attack damage your main class feature is lost like a fart in the wind, and your first rogue levels are virtually dead levels. And remember that GWM thing reduces -5 off an attack, which should make you miss some (even with advantage).

[Easy_Lee]

You get multiple attacks, so you can open with a dagger or similar as your first, if you so choose. Then just use your object interaction to put the dagger away and two-hand your axe.

Edit: the purpose is to get your one sneak attack / turn. You wouldn't bother pulling it back out for action surge, of course.

[Spacehamster]

Fair enough, but without using that Sneak Attack damage your main class feature is lost like a fart in the wind, and your first rogue levels are virtually dead levels. And remember that GWM thing reduces -5 off an attack, which should make you miss some (even with advantage).

The main feature is not 2d6 sneak attack, it would be a main feature if I went for mainly rogue levels or a ranged character sure, main feature is automatic criticals on surprise which does not need a finesse weapon to trigger.

[Spacehamster]

You get multiple attacks, so you can open with a dagger or similar as your first, if you so choose. Then just use your object interaction to put the dagger away and two-hand your axe.

Edit: the purpose is to get your one sneak attack / turn. You wouldn't bother pulling it back out for action surge, of course.

This is true rule wise but would make me cringe thinking about somebody randomly stabbing a guy, going "excuse me while I switch weapons good sir" and proceeds to drop dagger and pull out great axe in middle of combat so will go unoptimized for sake of making combat feel more realistic. :)

[Spacehamster]

Those are some nice rolls! That said, let's start:

First and foremost you will need to take 3 levels in rogue asap, so that you can bring your assassinate online at the earliest level possible (ie level 9). It goes without mention that if you are not already proficient in stealth, you should use your new skill proficiency gained by multiclassing into rogue to train yourself in stealth. Also, expertise in stealth. So far, so good, all relatively straightforward and simple.

Let's have a look at the rest of the rogue features you gain. You can use the second expertise in one of perception/deception/athletics, depending on what approach you want your character to take when approaching enemies. Given that you lack options such as invisibility, spider climb and teleportations, I would probably expertise athletics, and have my character assassinate commando-style. But all other options are good, even some I didnt mention, such as intimidate. It depends on your playstyle, you get the picture. You also gain some tool proficiencies, and let me make a special note on the poisoner's kit. Assassinate relies more on damage dice rather than flat damage (not that flat damage is bad), so any amount of extra dice you can add to the mix, it is definitely a step in the right direction. So make sure you are always packing some poison so that you can add some extra damage dice which will get doubled when assassinating. Even it is only basic poison, and hence just a d4, do it, you need all the extra damage you can get.

Now let me talk about the next most important thing you need to opt for, after taking these 3 levels in rogue. It concerns feats. You should take both alert and lucky with your next two ASIs. All assassins need these two feats. Alert improves drastically your initiative among other things, which is what keys off your assassinating in the first place (bad initiative, no assassinating for you), and lucky, well, lucky is just amazing for assassins. You roll poorly at initiative? Reroll. You roll poorly on one of those surprise round attacks? Reroll. You roll poorly for stealth when approaching a target you want to surprise? Reroll. Plus you are a GWMaster. You need all the rerolls you can get. Plus all the other benefits. Bad save? Reroll. You get the picture. Plus your stats are already great, so there is no dire need to boost them. Use your next two ASIs to grab these two feats. (Edit: Oh, you already have the alert feat, that's good.)

At this point, let me make some additional notes. You AC will inevitably lessen, as you will have to drop your heavy armor (presumably you were wearing a full plate), and instead don a breastplate or a studded leather (with your 18 in dex it is essentially the same thing). Choose one out of these two, the one that most appeals to you stylewise. I am sure you dont want to have disadvantage on stealth checks. And yes, medium armor master is not that bad of a feat, but alert and lucky have priority as I pointed out above. That sets your AC at 16.
Might I also suggest that you retrain your fighting style from GWF to mariner, if UA is allowed and if you are permitted to retrain that small aspect of your character. You are no longer going for a pure fighter build and you wont get (or will delay significantly) any extra attacks, so the value of attack minded fighting styles becomes of a lesser value. And the +1 to AC will come in very handy with what I will propose later on this post. It also mitigates the cost of you changing to a lighter type of armor, and the additional benefits regarding swimming and climbing speed, are not only very thematic to your whole concept and to your race, but they will also be quite helpful in many an occassion.
One last note regards assassintaing itself. Sure, with a greataxe you wont be able to profit from the 2d6 (doubled when assassinating) sneak attack damage, but GWM does have some nice synergy with assassinating, meaning that when you hit on a surprise round, exactly because that hit is treated as a crit, you can use your bonus action for a third attack. So there is that at least, and it is a very good boost to your assassination damage. Probably you know that already, just wanted to make sure you were aware of it.

So, we stand at fighter (champion) 6/ rogue (assassin) 3. Where to now? Well, there are many routes. Sure, you could add a couple of ranger levels for horde breaker and hunter's mark, or a level in cleric for bless and other first level spells. Not that either of these are bad options, but I wouldnt do any of it. Horde breaker, while great when used with GWM, needs to target a creature next to the one you hit, so it wont always apply to your assassination. Good enough for normal encounters, where it will see more use, but you can do better imo. And bless and hunter's mark are both good spells regarding your concentration, the first one for normal encounters and the second for extra damage when you are assassinating, but again, you can do better. More levels in rogue perhaps? Sure, to gain one of the much needed feats at level 10 would be great, and uncanny dodge is very tempting, so are the two additional uses of expertise at rogue 6. And you could use your ever increasing sneak attack damage whenever you have to use your longbow, with a dex of 18 you can switch from melee to range and vice versa as often as you like. Increasing the potency of your back up strategy is not that bad, surely. But again, you can still do better, much much better.

What about continuing with your fighter progression? You could do that immediately after grabbing those 3 levels in rogue, but imo you should delay it. Why? It is rather simple. If you just continue with your fighter progression after taking 3 levels in rogue, you would just be like any other normal fighter, who is 3 levels behind the power curve in order to get the perk of assassinating. Why do that, if you can still get this perk, all while you keep on par with what singleclass fighters of your total character level can achieve? You need to add something to the mix, that will both add to your assassinating skills, and to your skills as a frontline fighter. I want to make sure I emphasize this enough. You will want your character to stay relevant to as if you were a singleclass frontline champion, all while he can pull off assassinations like a pro. Both aspects are equally important, and you shouldnt trade one for another, nor be mediocre in both. You need to be equally good in both.

How to do that? After you hit level 9 (fighter6/rogue3), take 3 levels in warlock.
If you cannot imagine your character taking warlock levels, or if you cannot or dont want to make it work for some rp reason, then fair enough, it is your perogative, it is your character, and it is your decision ofc. But warlocks do come with some inherent good roleplaying, especially if you decide to multiclass in this class, as it is something that can spark a whole lot of things in the campaign, even a new story arc. Generally it is very interesting to work with the DM and decide on how your character made his pact. Anyway, whatever the case may be regarding your wants, I will still go ahead and list how a 3-level dip in warlock helps you enormously, if not for anything else, just to tempt you to the dark side of multiclassing.

First and foremost, you get hex. Hex is better than hunter's mark, especially when you consider how it can influence your assassination. Before I make the comparison between hex and hunter's mark, let me just say, that you could really use a concentration spell that adds some extra damage in the form of damage dice, as your assassination needs some help. With GWM generating a 3rd attack during surprise rounds, you will add the d6 from hex to 3 attacks, thus adding a total of 6d6 damage to your assassinating. Quite a decent amount I would say. You need a spell like that, exactly for that reason. As to why hex is superior to hunter's mark regarding assassinating, hex inflicts a penalty on a chosen ability check of your opponent, so if you wisely choose his dex checks, hex will result in lowering the enemy's initiative, and as I said previously, assassinating relies very heavily on initiative. Hex is a very effective spell for assassins.
Secondly, invisibility. You know which assassins lack invisibility from their arsenal? Only the bad ones! And by bad, I dont mean it alignment-wise. You play in a world where magic presumably is a tool. Use it. You need it. Even if your world is a low-magic one, you get the chance for your character to be special, set apart, shine. Invisibility is just too useful to pass up. No matter how good your stealth is.
Thirdly, darkness and devil's sight. As I mentioned previously, you need some trick to catch up with what you would have been should you not have choose to multiclass. You need a neat little trick to get you back in the game, regarding how well your character performs under normal encounter conditions. You are a GWMaster. You have no maneuvres to help you mitigate the -5 penalty, and although bless would be a good enough way to help you offensively, it will not do much defensively, despite the boost it grants to saves. Besides, getting a level in cleric mainly for this spell, is not worth it, when you can just do the same job and in a more efficient way, all while you get to add tons of other important features and abilities that will benefit you. And I am sure you have heard all sorts of complaints about how cheesy this combo is, but let me tell you from personal experience gained through actual gameplay, that this combo is neither overpowered, nor does it create problems regarding to how smoothly and fast the encounters run. I use it quite a lot with my assassin, and despite my whole group was hesitant at first, I sat them down, I explained how simply it worked (something I actually learned in this forum), and the game runs fast and all is well. I can even point you to a small summary I've made regarding how this tactic changes things in the encounter, if you indeed decide to act on my advice. Anyway, this combo will grant you advantage on attacks, and enemies will attack you with disadvantage. That helps with your GWMastering, and with how your AC was reduced. This is the reason why I advised you earlier in the post to grab mariner for the +1 AC, as the value of that +1 is increased if you factor in the disadvantage on the incoming attacks against you. So now you are harder to hit than a 12th level fighter, and you may have one attack less, but you attack with advantage, which makes up for it. It also restricts several effects from targeting you, like most spells that target saves, as most of them require the caster to actually see the target, as specified in their respective descriptions. So it competes, if not outshines, bless, in that respect too. All in all, you are about as potent as a singleclass fighter of your level would be, once you hit level 12 (that is just one level of being behind the power curve -ie level 11). And if you really want to avoid tanking attacks with disadvantage for some reason, you can always use your bonus action to select to hide (cunning action), thus making yourself practically untargetable (beware of area effects though).
Other potential benefits:
Take pact of the blade for a weapon that counts as magical against creatures with immunities to non magical weapons, but mostly so that you can sneak in your massive greataxe anywhere without even causing the slightest of suspicion. Handy trick for an assassin, hey? Just to show you how important I consider this trick to be, my characer who is an assassin without this neat little trick, and has sorcerer levels instead, spent one of my precious known spells on creation (5th level spell!!!), and one metamagic on subtle, for exactly that reason. To create a weapon when I cannot afford to be seen carrying one.
Also, mask of many faces. Sure you have proficinecy in disguise it from going assassin, and sure you have a good int score and a good deception hopefully, that will help you employ social stealth. But this invocation is a nice addition to your social skills. And it can be used quite nicely along with the cantrips friends. Afterall, there will be times when you need to obtain information in a discrete way, and avoiding the spotlight that the cantrip friends can put you into, via mask of many faces, is important.
You also gain one extra spell apart from the three I already mentioned (hex, invisibility, darkness), pick one you like. myself I like misty step, but there are other good options too, perhaps charm person, though if you take friends and mask of many faces you dont need it. Make a pact with the entity that best fits your character's theme and the story, to gain an extra nice little perk, I would recommend fiend if you were to pick up more than 3 levels in this class, as it has some nice features that play well with assassins (especially dark one's own luck, which can affect initiative among other things), or just go with the great old one if you stick with just 3 levels, for telepathy, if you like these sort of things. And a few cantrips to complement your skills and abilities.

All in all a great 3 level dip in your case. If you are not opposed to it from a roleplaying standpoint, I would highly recommend getting 3 warlock levels after you hit fighter6/assassin3. Thus putting you at fighter6/assassin3/warlock3.


After that, well, we can discuss this when that time comes. I would normally suggest taking the remaining levels in warlock, as I quite favour the additional spell support on assassins (such as scrying and etherealness), but with that many levels in fighter, you woud miss on the big prize, which is etherealness, and which imo is the perfect capstone for an assassin build. Perhaps aim for fighter 11 instead, to get that extra attack at level 17, or perhaps take one more level in warlock and one in rogue, so by 14 level you will have both alert and lucky, and then aim for fighter 11 for the 3rd attack. But my sugggestion is to aim for fighter 6/assassin3/warlock3, and to plan for alert and lucky after that.

Hope this helped.


ps: As to how I would create an assassin that would use a heavy weapon instead of a finesse one, and I was allowed to build him from scratch, here is how I would do it.
We aim for

fighter (battlemaster) 3/ bladelock 5/ rogue (assassin) 3


In the first case, your best bet is to take the remaining levels as a warlock, or at least go up to warlock 13 and take a 4th level in rogue or fighter for a feat, though I think warlock 14 has more valuee in it. I like feylock for gr invisibility as an alternative to darkness, but fiendlock is arguably the better choice (extra points for how dark one's own luck works with assassinate regarding the enemy's initiative). Final build, fighter3 (BM)/ Fiendlock (blade) 14/ rogue (assassin) 3.

The problem of this build is that it takes some time to flourish. My personal advice is to aim for rogue 2/ warlock 3 asap, but you have to either start or throw an early fighter level for medium armor proficiency. Thus being fighter1/rogue2/warlock3 at level 6 (edit: Start as fighter for medium armor and con save prof). The you take 2 more warlock levels for extra extra attack and 1 more rogue level for assassinate, the order is completely up to you, and it depends on if you want to improve your assassination or your fighting during normal encounters first, putting you at fighter1/rogue3/warlock5 at level 9. Then you take 2 more fightr levels, so you have finally the majority of the tricks you can hope for, being a fighter3/warlock5/rogue3 at level 11. Then finish up as a warlock.

Feats.
At this point you only have 1 ASI/feat from warlock 4, which you will take according to my suggested progression at characer level 6 or 7. GWM is a must, but so are feats like alert and lucky. Actor is also a very cool feat for an assassin with your talents, though you might just not have enough room for it. Between these feats and more that I didnt mention, and pumping your ability scores, I would suggest starting vhuman for this much all needed feat, rather than halforc for some minor cool racial features. You need that feat man, you need all the feats you can get. And since warlock 2 offsets the biggest drawbacks of humans in regard to being an assassin (lack of darkvision), we are cool. My starting stats would be (with the racial increases): STR 16, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 13 with 2 more points remaining. I would invest those 1 of my two remaining points to pump con to 13 if I pwas planning on taking the resilient feat, alternatively I would put those 2 points in either int or wis, if I planned on taking the actor feat, or most commonly, I would put those 2 points to charisma and be done with it. Yeah, with alert, lucky and GWM, and assuming vhuman, you only have room for one more feat/ASI, it is tough to spend it on a feat like actor in good consciense, however funny that might be. Resilient could be a good choice for a feat taken at hight level, in which case resilient con is what you have to plan for, as it will also raise your hp and help with some other stuff as well. Or just pump your str to 18 as your last feat. Too many feats that are useful, so little room.


The trouble with almost all multiclassed assassin builds, is that contrary to a pure assassin rogue, they stay behind the power curve for a long part of their careers. This build is marginally excluded from this category, though there is an uneven distribution of power level-wise, meaning that there are still those very big levels that you have to hit in order to be good at what you are supposed to do, and those levels come a bit later than expected.

The truth is, that as assassination goes, there are builds with better damage output, and as far as usefulness in things besides assassination goes, there are other assassin builds that are more powerful. What I personaly like about this particular assassin build, in regards to other assassin builds, is that it gets an easy and painless access to the scrying spell, and that funny enough it is the only assassin build that uses a heavy weapon (greatsword), as opposed yo the other dex-oriented assassin builds.

Would I call it a one-trick pony? Probably yes, but the trick would be that it uses GWM very efficiently, especially when darkness is on. There is some worrying lack of synergy and some overlap or rather antithesis in regard to the functionality of this build, but oh well...

Great ideas, thx! :) 12 champ, 5 warlock and 3 assassin seems tempting and potent for sure. :)
Already got mariner style and going defense style with 2nd style from champion netting me 19 AC with studded leather and 20 AGI which I will prob take after lucky feat.

[Corran]

This is true rule wise but would make me cringe thinking about somebody randomly stabbing a guy, going "excuse me while I switch weapons good sir" and proceeds to drop dagger and pull out great axe in middle of combat so will go unoptimized for sake of making combat feel more realistic. :)
It would look cool if it was done like that (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OP-fyfcxLMU#t=94). I am not sure how the 2d6 additional damage from sneak attack would compare to a single hit by your greataxe, and I am really tired to figure it out right now. Perhaps if you had more rogue levels it would be worth it, now I am just not sure.

[Spacehamster]

It would look cool if it was done like that (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OP-fyfcxLMU#t=94). I am not sure how the 2d6 additional damage from sneak attack would compare to a single hit by your greataxe, and I am really tired to figure it out right now. Perhaps if you had more rogue levels it would be worth it, now I am just not sure.

That's my point really, with only 2d6 sneak attack die it's much better to just use a strong weapon instead at least if you got many attacks. :)

[JackPhoenix]

You also gain some tool proficiencies, and let me make a special note on the poisoner's kit. Assassinate relies more on damage dice rather than flat damage (not that flat damage is bad), so any amount of extra dice you can add to the mix, it is definitely a step in the right direction. So make sure you are always packing some poison so that you can add some extra damage dice which will get doubled when assassinating. Even it is only basic poison, and hence just a d4, do it, you need all the extra damage you can get.

Poison damage depends on saving throw, not attack roll, so you can't crit with it.

[Spacehamster]

Poison damage depends on saving throw, not attack roll, so you can't crit with it.

That plus the fact poison is expensive as hell and only lasts one hit makes it completely useless sadly. :(
It not critting is okay but I think it should last for 10 rounds so you get some use out of it not just one measly hit.

[Jarlhen]

You're building the character around getting 1 critical hit per combat sometimes? That's a lot of investement for a pretty gimmicky gimmick.

[JellyPooga]

So what I wonder I guess is how would you experienced folk build an assassin that uses "brute force weapons" instead of fiddly finesse weapons?

Without using the Rogue Class.

You're springing 3 levels of Rogue for a Class Feature (Assassinate) that gives you an auto-crit during a surprise round. You're straight up ignoring one main feature (Sneak Attack), probably not getting regular use out of another (Cunning Action) because you'll want the extra attack GWM offers and further you're partially duplicating a feature you already have (Improved Critical). You are, in effect, taking three levels largely just to get Expertise and Assassinate; not a great deal.

Further, whilst better than most because of your Race, you aren't exactly rocking the gravy train on critical effects. Rogue, Barbarian and Paladin are the three main Classes that enjoy Crits and you're not even considering using any of their features that make them enjoy Crits.

My advice would be to go down the Ranger route;

Champion Fighter 6/Hunter Ranger 5/Totem Barbarian 9

A little too much overlap for my liking really, but it fits the bill.

Ranger 5 gets you an extra Skill Proficiency, which can be used on Stealth if you don't already have it. It also gets you Pass Without Trace, which is...frankly ridiculous for Stealth builds. Not to mention Hunters Mark (which multiplies on a crit).

Barbarian 9 gives you Rage (extra damage), Reckless Attack (hit more often), Fast Movement (to sneak faster), Feral Instinct (to go first) and Brutal Critical (for truly boss crits). Choose whatever Totems you like at 3rd and 6th; I'd go with Elk at 3rd (even faster!) and either Elk or Tiger at 6th (depending on whether you've already got all the Tiger skill proficiencies or not; skills are good).

[Spacehamster]

You're building the character around getting 1 critical hit per combat sometimes? That's a lot of investement for a pretty gimmicky gimmick.

No around getting advantage first round of combat pretty much each combat and getting 4-7 crits depending on level and if using action surge or not.

[ad_hoc]

The main feature is not 2d6 sneak attack, it would be a main feature if I went for mainly rogue levels or a ranged character sure, main feature is automatic criticals on surprise which does not need a finesse weapon to trigger.

Remember that you also need to win initiative.

How often do you think you will even get surprise in the first place? Then how often will you win initiative?

The automatic critical will come up, what, once every 3 or 4 sessions if you are lucky?

[JellyPooga]

No around getting advantage first round of combat pretty much each combat and getting 4-7 crits depending on level and if using action surge or not.

If it's just about getting Advantage to hit, then Barbarian 2 is quicker, far more reliable and gives you more damage from Rage too. It makes you more vulnerable by giving Advantage to your foes, for sure, but it simultaneously makes you hard as nails with d12 HD and Resistance to damage.

[Spacehamster]

Without using the Rogue Class.

You're springing 3 levels of Rogue for a Class Feature (Assassinate) that gives you an auto-crit during a surprise round. You're straight up ignoring one main feature (Sneak Attack), probably not getting regular use out of another (Cunning Action) because you'll want the extra attack GWM offers and further you're partially duplicating a feature you already have (Improved Critical). You are, in effect, taking three levels largely just to get Expertise and Assassinate; not a great deal.

Further, whilst better than most because of your Race, you aren't exactly rocking the gravy train on critical effects. Rogue, Barbarian and Paladin are the three main Classes that enjoy Crits and you're not even considering using any of their features that make them enjoy Crits.

My advice would be to go down the Ranger route;

Champion Fighter 6/Hunter Ranger 5/Totem Barbarian 9

A little too much overlap for my liking really, but it fits the bill.

Ranger 5 gets you an extra Skill Proficiency, which can be used on Stealth if you don't already have it. It also gets you Pass Without Trace, which is...frankly ridiculous for Stealth builds. Not to mention Hunters Mark (which multiplies on a crit).

Barbarian 9 gives you Rage (extra damage), Reckless Attack (hit more often), Fast Movement (to sneak faster), Feral Instinct (to go first) and Brutal Critical (for truly boss crits). Choose whatever Totems you like at 3rd and 6th; I'd go with Elk at 3rd (even faster!) and either Elk or Tiger at 6th (depending on whether you've already got all the Tiger skill proficiencies or not; skills are good).

So 9d12 + 45 is not enjoying crits, surge and its 15d12 + 75 at level 9. With 3 attacks + bonus attack its 12d12 + 60 and 21d12 + 105 with action surge, improved critical does not duplicate anything it helps greatly when you did not get the surprise but still go first in combat thanks to alert, 19-20 crit with advantage is nothing to sneeze at. As for paladins enjoying crits, sure they do until they run out of their very limited spell slots while my build never runs out of steam. :)

[Spacehamster]

Remember that you also need to win initiative.

How often do you think you will even get surprise in the first place? Then how often will you win initiative?

The automatic critical will come up, what, once every 3 or 4 sessions if you are lucky?

Expertise in stealth says hi. :) 9 initiative bonus(later 13) also says hi. :)

I also tend to be generaly lucky with initiative and stealth rolls so should be fine. :)

[Spacehamster]

If it's just about getting Advantage to hit, then Barbarian 2 is quicker, far more reliable and gives you more damage from Rage too. It makes you more vulnerable by giving Advantage to your foes, for sure, but it simultaneously makes you hard as nails with d12 HD and Resistance to damage.

Barbarian does not give a chance of automatic crits tho + we got two barbarians in the party already. :)
Also curious where you got the "build it around getting one crit" from, assassinate grants as many crits as you hit in the surprise round. :) Its just sneak attack die that can just be applied to one attack.

[ad_hoc]

Expertise in stealth says hi. :) 9 initiative bonus(later 13) also says hi. :)

I also tend to be generaly lucky with initiative and stealth rolls so should be fine. :)

You're in a party of 1?

[JellyPooga]

So 9d12 + 45 is not enjoying crits, surge and its 15d12 + 75 at level 9. With 3 attacks + bonus attack its 12d12 + 60 and 21d12 + 105 with action surge,

I'm not saying you don't have a good build there, just that you're not really getting a lot out of crits that your Race isn't already giving you. You're getting more out of the fact that you have multiple attacks there, so a build that focuses on getting more attacks is more your bag (enter Ranger, stage right).


improved critical does not duplicate anything

Partially duplicates, partially. A feature that gives you a crit on a roll of 19-20 is redundant if the goal is to get an auto-crit.


As for paladins enjoying crits, sure they do until they run out of their very limited spell slots while my build never runs out of steam. :)

And you'll note I only mentioned Paladin in passing; nice of you to have read my post in detail! :smallwink:

As I say; Barbarian and Ranger are your friends. Reckless Attack for Advantage that you choose to use is better than situational Advantage from Stealth. Extra Skill Proficiencies, faster movement, better-than-Expertise Stealth from PWT, Hunters Mark and more attacks (either from Horde Breaker or Frenzy if you go Berserker).

You don't need Assassin Rogue to be an "assassin". Take a look at what you actually get out of taking those three levels and ask yourself the question "would another Class do it better?".

edit: oh, you might want to check who's replying to what, too...I didn't say anything about the build relying on 1 big hit....

[Spacehamster]

You're in a party of 1?

Nope but I am the stealthy one that strikes first. :)
Although I guess that does not matter cause my group have turned so damn lazy lately so we have not got together a session in months so all I can do is sit and figure out builds. ;p

[Spacehamster]

I'm not saying you don't have a good build there, just that you're not really getting a lot out of crits that your Race isn't already giving you. You're getting more out of the fact that you have multiple attacks there, so a build that focuses on getting more attacks is more your bag (enter Ranger, stage right).



Partially duplicates, partially. A feature that gives you a crit on a roll of 19-20 is redundant if the goal is to get an auto-crit.



And you'll note I only mentioned Paladin in passing; nice of you to have read my post in detail! :smallwink:

As I say; Barbarian and Ranger are your friends. Reckless Attack for Advantage that you choose to use is better than situational Advantage from Stealth. Extra Skill Proficiencies, faster movement, better-than-Expertise Stealth from PWT, Hunters Mark and more attacks (either from Horde Breaker or Frenzy if you go Berserker).

You don't need Assassin Rogue to be an "assassin". Take a look at what you actually get out of taking those three levels and ask yourself the question "would another Class do it better?".

edit: oh, you might want to check who's replying to what, too...I didn't say anything about the build relying on 1 big hit....

Ah lol that were the guy above your post sorry about that. :)
I have always had a bit more positive view of abilities that overlap slightly
I see them as complimenting each other, in the context of auto crit on surprise I see the superior critical as such: "Oh dang I did not manage to get surprise off but oh well I rolled a good initiative and gets advantage on my attacks and good use of my 19-20 crits." :)

And in regards to barb/ranger, all valid points and idea were champ 12, ranger 5 and assassin 3 for both expertice and pass without trace, Barb as stated is not an option due to two barbs in the party already. :)

[JellyPooga]

Barb as stated is not an option due to two barbs in the party already. :)

Heh, I see that as more reason to go Barbarian. Hang out with the natives and even a civilised man will tend to start getting a bit...feral. Besides, you can never have enough Barbarian in a party!

[Spacehamster]

Heh, I see that as more reason to go Barbarian. Hang out with the natives and even a civilised man will tend to start getting a bit...feral. Besides, you can never have enough Barbarian in a party!

Well I had a crazed fever dream about being a dualwielder halfling barbarian but that is probably not a good idea. xD

[Safety Sword]

This is true rule wise but would make me cringe thinking about somebody randomly stabbing a guy, going "excuse me while I switch weapons good sir" and proceeds to drop dagger and pull out great axe in middle of combat so will go unoptimized for sake of making combat feel more realistic. :)

It would be more like:
*Stab*
*Let go of weapon*
*Draw Weapon*
*Smack*

[RickAllison]

It would be more like:
*Stab*
*Let go of weapon*
*Draw Weapon*
*Smack*

Technically, I think the only restriction on wielding dual weapons is that the TWF style has specific restrictions. From the rules I've seen, anyone can pick up two longswords and use them to fight, it is just that you don't get the bonus action attack.

Additionally, the restriction on using two hands for a great axe is only when attacking. So he could stroll into battle stabbing with a rapier, then drop it smack with the axe. No need to worry about object interactions!

[Ermac]

Well I had a crazed fever dream about being a dualwielder halfling barbarian but that is probably not a good idea. xD
A friend of mine actually did exactly that in a recent campaign. Maxed dex and con, took the dual wielder feat and never wore armor, and had stupid high ac, and only took half damage when he managed to get hit.

[Spacehamster]

Technically, I think the only restriction on wielding dual weapons is that the TWF style has specific restrictions. From the rules I've seen, anyone can pick up two longswords and use them to fight, it is just that you don't get the bonus action attack.

Additionally, the restriction on using two hands for a great axe is only when attacking. So he could stroll into battle stabbing with a rapier, then drop it smack with the axe. No need to worry about object interactions!

could have a dagger that you have strapped on your gloves so you get like a punching dagger, no need to drop it?
Would look quite cool sneaking up behind the enemy and punch em in the neck with the glove-dagger and proceed to
cleave his buddies in half with his great-axe. :)