Fun ways to (ab)use Wind Walk

[stenver]

So help me figure out all the fun stuff that you can do with wind walk. + points for pissing off DM(joke).


Wind Walk

Transmutation

Level: 6
Casting time: 1 Minute
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (fire and holy water)
Duration: 8 hours
You and up to ten willing creatures you can see within range assume a gaseous form for the duration, appearing as wisps of cloud.
While in this cloud form, a creature has a flying speed of 300 feet and has resistance to damage from nonmagical weapons. The only actions a creature can take in this form are the Dash action or to revert to its normal form.
Reverting takes 1 minute, during which time a creature is incapacitated and can’t move. Until the spell ends, a creature can revert to cloud form, which also requires the 1-minute transformation.

If a creature is in cloud form and flying when the effect ends, the creature descends 60 feet per round for 1 minute until it lands, which it does safely. If it can’t land after 1 minute, the creature falls the remaining distance.



Other than the usual overland travel, some ideas:


Completely scout a dungeon before entering it. Unless you are dispelled by magic, no monster can catch you at 600 feet per round
Cast spirit guardians and fly through the dungeon with 600 feet per round, damaging enemies as you pass and hiding somewhere at the end of your turn
Cast Detect magic and scout through the entire area finding all the magical stuff
Terrorise a town into thinking it's full of ghosts, by scaring the villagers with clouds flying everywhere and then offering protection for money
Skip all the horrors of the underdark and just fly through the entire dungeon where you need to
Cast Detect evil and good and scout through the entire city/garrison/etc in minutes and spot anybody who is evil
Fly in circles around a creature with 600 feet per round, most probably blinding him, maybe stopping his ranged attacks.(Coupled with Expeditious retreat, it would be 900 FPR)
Couple with Find The Path and you get to everywhere in no time

[Slipperychicken]

Cast spirit guardians and fly through the dungeon with 600 feet per round, damaging enemies as you pass and hiding somewhere at the end of your turn


Spirit guardians doesn't work like that. Moving the space over an enemy doesn't count as them entering the space. Sage advice confirmed that's not how it's supposed to be.

[MrStabby]

So now I am thinking of "The Empire Strikes Back" type manoeuvre. Whizz round with a line and tie up the legs of everyone in the dungeon.

[Tanarii]

Completely scout a dungeon before entering it. Unless you are dispelled by magic, no monster can catch you at 600 feet per roundBut all of them can attack you for 1/2 damage, and you can't fight back. Gonna need some healing if you survive.

[ClintACK]

A couple of weaknesses to keep in mind:
1) You're still vulnerable to all kinds of damage. Even nonmagical weapons just do half damage.
2) You're not invisible, just fast.
3) Spirit Guardians doesn't do damage as you pass -- it only does damage on the enemy's turn, so you'd have to stop, visible and within 15' of the enemy, to let them take the damage. And you'd have no other way to damage them -- though no problem running away.
4) This is the big one: You have no way to open a door, or to pass through a closed one.
5) If an enemy closes a door behind you, trapping you, you have no way to escape without reverting to solid form -- which requires a minute of "incapacitated". Potentially ten rounds of damage from the enemy before you can do anything but run around the room really fast. Even at half damage from nonmagical weapons, that's a killer. Literally.


But, okay. Ways to (ab)use the spell:

1) Combine with Locate Creature -- usually a 1000 foot range. You can cover a whole lot of territory in the 1 hour concentration time flying above tree level at 600'/round (using dash). (7 rounds to cover a 3000 foot range, 20 rounds to cover a 5000 foot range, 38 rounds to cover a 7000 foot range... and just keep spiraling outward. In an hour's search (before Locate Creature wears off) you can cover a 5 mile radius with a simple spiral search. And then you've got seven hours left on Wind Walk, if you need it.

[TheFlyingCleric]

An important consideration is whether you can take bonus actions or not. Bonus actions mean a lot of stupid strange stuff becomes possible

RAW states that an effect that prevents you from taking actions also prevents you from taking bonus actions. But wind walk doesn't quite fit into this; you can still take actions, just they're restricted to a choice of Dash and reverting.
So if you have the Charger Feat, you can Dash, move 300 feet, make a melee weapon attack or shove an enemy, and then move 300 feet away.

Let me be the first to say it; that's completely stupid. But apart from the making no damn sense, it is rules-legal.

[R.Shackleford]

Your best bet is to have an ally drop invisibility or greater invisibility.

Then you are an invisible cloud.

A happy invisible cloud.

[JumboWheat01]

Your best bet is to have an ally drop invisibility or greater invisibility.

Then you are an invisible cloud.

A happy invisible cloud.

So you are an invisible gaseous cloud. But are you silent?

Silent, but deadly.

[Shining Wrath]

An important consideration is whether you can take bonus actions or not. Bonus actions mean a lot of stupid strange stuff becomes possible

RAW states that an effect that prevents you from taking actions also prevents you from taking bonus actions. But wind walk doesn't quite fit into this; you can still take actions, just they're restricted to a choice of Dash and reverting.
So if you have the Charger Feat, you can Dash, move 300 feet, make a melee weapon attack or shove an enemy, and then move 300 feet away.

Let me be the first to say it; that's completely stupid. But apart from the making no damn sense, it is rules-legal.


Your best bet is to have an ally drop invisibility or greater invisibility.

Then you are an invisible cloud.

A happy invisible cloud.

I'm going to have to say that as a DM I'd rule that a gaseous cloud can't make shove or melee weapon attacks because you are a cloud of gas. However, there's a list of spells that can be cast as a bonus action, and it could be interesting to see what you could do casting those with your bonus action. The clear RAI is that you can't cast spells while under the influence of Wind Walk, though.

[Tanarii]

So if you have the Charger Feat, you can Dash, move 300 feet, make a melee weapon attack or shove an enemy, and then move 300 feet away.How does this work? Your actions, including any bonus actions, are restricted to the Dash action.

If you get a bonus action that can be a Dash action (ie Cunning Action) then you can use it. But not bonus actions that aren't the Dash action.

[Easy_Lee]

I don't see anything that says you can't be grappled. By an ally. Could turn yourself into a weapons platform full of archers and blasters, moving at half speed, if your strength was high enough.

[Belac93]

Be an assassin rogue and get someone else to cast this on you, dash action and disengage bonus action, fly right above a powerful enemy, spend a minute reverting, drop and with 2 shortswords and attack for 1d6 damage with each shortsword, an extra 1d6 each from sneak attack, plus 12d6 damage from assassin and sneak attack, assuming 20 dex, an average of 61 damage in a single surprise round. With reliable talent and expertise in stealth, you have a +13 bonus to stealth, giving you a minimum stealth check of 23, enough to surprise pretty much anything. Or you could get someone to cast invisibility.

If you choose a single enemy, you can then turn back to a cloud. Nothing stopping you from repeating this tactic a couple times.

[R.Shackleford]

How does this work? Your actions, including any bonus actions, are restricted to the Dash action.

If you get a bonus action that can be a Dash action (ie Cunning Action) then you can use it. But not bonus actions that aren't the Dash action.

Your actions are restricted but your bonus actions are not.

You haven't lost the ability to use actions, just that you can only use specific ones. Therefore, by raw, you can use any bonus actions you want.

Charger gives you a bonus action attack/shove when you use the Dash Action. While in gas form you use the Dash Action.

As to how a gas can hurt you... The air is a gas and when it picks up speed it can do a lot of damage. Ramming someone with gaseous cloud is no different, well a bit weaker, than Gust of Wind.

Greater Invisibility (just in case people say you can see the gas) + Move + Dash + Charger is great

[Tanarii]

dash action and disengage bonus actionHow are you taking the disengage action when you're limited to Dash actions?


fly right above a powerful enemy, spend a minute revertingAn enemy you were just in combat with (ie tried to Disengage) standing still for an entire minute standing in the same place? :smallyuk:

[Tanarii]

Your actions are restricted but your bonus actions are not.

You haven't lost the ability to use actions, just that you can only use specific ones. Therefore, by raw, you can use any bonus actions you want.Bonus actions are actions. The only action you can use is the Dash action. It doesn't matter if it's a bonus action or normal action, it's still the only action you can use. Be it as Action, Bonus Action, Reaction, or even object interaction (which basically means you can't do those last ones).

[R.Shackleford]

Bonus actions are actions. The only action you can use is the Dash action. It doesn't matter if it's a bonus action or normal action, it's still the only action you can use. Be it as Action, Bonus Action, Reaction, or even object interaction (which basically means you can't do those last ones).

No.

Actions and Bonus Actions aren't the same thing. If you have a spell that requires a bonus action you can not cast it was an action.

If you have an action you can't use a bonus action to perform that ability unless you have a feature that specifically let's you use that action as a bonus action.

You can't cast fireball as a bonus action and you can't cast spiritual weapon as an action.

Wind Walk doesn't stop you from taking Actions, it stops you from taking specific types of actions.

You can still use your bonus action however you see fit.

[Tanarii]

No.Yes.


Actions and Bonus Actions aren't the same thing. If you have a spell that requires a bonus action you can not cast it was an action.It doesn't matter. The only action you can take is Dash or restoring your form. It doesn't limit that restriction to Actions only. It applies to any and all action types.


Wind Walk doesn't stop you from taking Actions, it stops you from taking specific types of actions.

You can still use your bonus action however you see fit.It stops you from taking any action that is not the Dash action. It doesn't matter if you take it as an Action or a Bonus Action.

[R.Shackleford]

Yes.

It doesn't matter. The only action you can take is Dash or restoring your form. It doesn't limit that restriction to Actions only. It applies to any and all action types.

It stops you from taking any action that is not the Dash action. It doesn't matter if you take it as an Action or a Bonus Action.

No, please read the rules again and show me where it says Actions and Bonus Actions are the same thing.

If they were the same thing you could use Fireball as a bonus action.

RAI you *might* be correct, however the spell, when you use the rules in the game, allows for bonus actions to be used.


****
Your Turn

On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first. Your speed— sometimes called your walking speed—is noted on your character sheet.

The most common actions you can take are described in the “Actions” section. Many class features and other abilities provide additional options for your action.

You can forgo moving, taking an action, or doing anything at all on your turn. If you can’t decide what to do on your turn, consider taking the Dodge or Ready action.

Bonus Actions

Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action. The Cunning Action feature, for example, allows a rogue to take a bonus action. You can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a bonus action. You otherwise don’t have a bonus action to take.

You can take only one bonus action on your turn, so you must choose which bonus action to use when you have more than one available.

You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.

****

The spell doesn't prevent you from taking actions, just any action that isn't Dash. You still have all your bonus actions at your disposal.

[RickAllison]

Yes.

It doesn't matter. The only action you can take is Dash or restoring your form. It doesn't limit that restriction to Actions only. It applies to any and all action types.

It stops you from taking any action that is not the Dash action. It doesn't matter if you take it as an Action or a Bonus Action.

In a case like this, it is best to consult the text:


You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action

So from my figuring, since Wind Walk removes the ability to take actions aside from Dash, it also removes the ability to take bonus actions other than Dash. So someone with Cunning Action, Expeditious Retreat, or Step of the Wind (appropriately) can still use their third Dash, but not other effects.

[Tanarii]

No, please read the rules again and show me where it says Actions and Bonus Actions are the same thing.This has nothing to do with actions being the same thing. It has to do with the specific action that you are allowed to take.

Dash can be any type of action. It can be an Action. It can be a Bonus Action. Regardless of how it is used, it is the only action allowed.

The RAW is explicit: The only actions a creature can take in this form are the Dash action or to revert to its normal form. Done and done. There is no possible way to read this sentence as allowing an action other than the Dash action or "revert to normal form" just because it is a Bonus Action.

[MaxWilson]

Are you guys seriously arguing over RAW allows a Charger to attack with his bonus action when in Wind Walk form even though he can't attack normally? This is like how RAW on light used to make a guy holding a torch invisible to anyone not illuminated by his torch--it may be RAW, but it was insane, and no sane DM ever ruled it that way.

If you ever meet a DM who cares about the RAW on Wind Walk/Charger interaction, let me know. Meanwhile I'll be playing the game with my players.

[JackPhoenix]

Back to OP:



Completely scout a dungeon before entering it. Unless you are dispelled by magic, no monster can catch you at 600 feet per round
Cast spirit guardians and fly through the dungeon with 600 feet per round, damaging enemies as you pass and hiding somewhere at the end of your turn
Cast Detect magic and scout through the entire area finding all the magical stuff
Terrorise a town into thinking it's full of ghosts, by scaring the villagers with clouds flying everywhere and then offering protection for money
Skip all the horrors of the underdark and just fly through the entire dungeon where you need to
Cast Detect evil and good and scout through the entire city/garrison/etc in minutes and spot anybody who is evil
Fly in circles around a creature with 600 feet per round, most probably blinding him, maybe stopping his ranged attacks.(Coupled with Expeditious retreat, it would be 900 FPR)
Couple with Find The Path and you get to everywhere in no time


1: the scouting will be stopped by first closed door. Creatures can still attack you (including OA) if you get too close. They can grapple you. Some traps can still hit you.

2: Spirit Guardians doesn't work like that

3: You can't cast spells while turned into a cloud. Wind Walk has a casting time of 1 minute, so you can't precast Detect Magic either. Seeing auras with Detect Magic takes an action, which you can't take in cloud form.

4: that may work. Waste of a high-level slot, though, you can do the same with Minor Illusion and Silent Image at level 1

5: You can't cast spells while turned into a cloud. Wind Walk has a casting time of 1 minute, so you can't precast Detect Evil and Good either. Detect Evil and Good doesn't work like that, you can detect presence of undead, fey, elementals celestials or fiends, not anybody's aligment

6: you can provide half cover when you stop between the target creature and someone else. That's it. No stopping ranged weapons, no blinding anyone, and you could be attacked. Expeditious Retreat can't be combined with Wind Walk for the same reasons mentioned in 1 and 5

7: that's the spell working as intended, though for the reasons mentioned in 1, 5 and 6, you can't combine Wind Walk with Find the Path from the same caster.

[R.Shackleford]

This has nothing to do with actions being the same thing. It has to do with the specific action that you are allowed to take.

Dash can be any type of action. It can be an Action. It can be a Bonus Action. Regardless of how it is used, it is the only action allowed.

The RAW is explicit: The only actions a creature can take in this form are the Dash action or to revert to its normal form. Done and done. There is no possible way to read this sentence as allowing an action other than the Dash action or "revert to normal form" just because it is a Bonus Action.

You are still confusing things.

Bonus Actions are not covered by the spell.

Bonus Actions are not actions.

The spell doesn't stop you from taking Actions, it stops you from taking specific actions. RAW states that the only time you are stopped from taking Bonus Actions is If you are stopped from taking Actions.

Hold Person stops you from taking Actions. You can use a bonus action here.

Wind Walk tells you that you can use your action to dash. It may have been an oversight, but the RAW is clear to anyone who isn't trying to rule against the players for the sake of ruling against the players. You still have access to your bonus actions.

RAI may not be the case but RAW certainly is.

Rule of Cool also rules in favor of a Charging Wind, Hellish Rebuke Wind, or whatever else.

You can ignore things all you want and make up ruling or you can read what RAW says and realize that you still have bonus actions.

I go with RoC, I actually don't care about the RAW/RAI on this one. But that doesn't mean I'm going to lie/if ore things for the sake of my opinion.


Note: Not calling anyone else a liar , that is meant to show that I dontnplay favorites and call it as I see it.

[JackPhoenix]

You are still confusing things.

Bonus Actions are not covered by the spell.

Bonus Actions are not actions.

The spell doesn't stop you from taking Actions, it stops you from taking specific actions. RAW states that the only time you are stopped from taking Bonus Actions is If you are stopped from taking Actions.

You know, you should read what you're posting before spewing nonsense:


Bonus Actions

Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action. The Cunning Action feature, for example, allows a rogue to take a bonus action. You can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a bonus action. You otherwise don’t have a bonus action to take.

Emphasis mine. Bonus Action isn't Action, but it's still an action. So is reaction, by the way.

[Easy_Lee]

No one replied to my weapons platform post. Guess that one works as long as cloud form party members can be grappled, or can carry other party members.

I suggest casting this spell on the fighter, then having a warlock ride on his back and Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Spear everything across the countryside.

[R.Shackleford]

You know, you should read what you're posting before spewing nonsense:



Emphasis mine. Bonus Action isn't Action, but it's still an action. So is reaction, by the way.

And you are wrong, you can try and twist basic English all you want but it doesn't change the fact that you are twisiting it.

If you can't take actions you can't take bonus actions.

Why spell it out when they are the same things? Because they ain't the same thing. Wind Walk doesn't stop you from using your Action on your turn it stops you from using you Action for specific things. You still have access to all your Bonus Actions because Wind Walk doesn't stop you from taking Actions.

[Tanarii]

And you are wrong, you can try and twist basic English all you want but it doesn't change the fact that you are twisiting it.The irony of this statement just made the forums explode a little. :smallbiggrin:

[JackPhoenix]

And you are wrong, you can try and twist basic English all you want but it doesn't change the fact that you are twisiting it.

If you can't take actions you can't take bonus actions.

Why spell it out when they are the same things? Because they ain't the same thing. Wind Walk doesn't stop you from using your Action on your turn it stops you from using you Action for specific things. You still have access to all your Bonus Actions because Wind Walk doesn't stop you from taking Actions.

I'm the one twisting basic English? Wow. Isn't there some saying about pots and kettles?

It's even in the citation you've posted: bonus action is an additional action you can take when you fulfil its requirements. No, Bonus Action (game term) isn't the same thing as Action (another game term), nobody suggested that (despite your claims), but just like Reaction (third game term), its an action (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/action?s=t) (base English word or game term? Only developers know). You can argue that when Wind Walk talks about actions, it means the game term and not plain English term (here we go with the twisting), but you can't argue that Bonus Action isn't an action (well, you can and knowing you, will, but in that case, you're wrong, read the text in the book or SRD). Unlike your (and mine) posts, the word action isn't capitalized in the rules, so it can use either meaning. The books, however, are presumably written in plain English, not as a series of keywords.

[RickAllison]

No one replied to my weapons platform post. Guess that one works as long as cloud form party members can be grappled, or can carry other party members.

I suggest casting this spell on the fighter, then having a warlock ride on his back and Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Spear everything across the countryside.

If they grapple you, your movement is reduced to 0. Carrying people is on the table, potentially. However size restrictions are still in play, so you are only going to be able to carry two people unless the rest are Small (and you thus qualify as a mount). If you are Enlarged somehow, it does function rather well.

Edit: Also reiterating the fact that the inability to take actions also prevents the ability to take bonus actions, as stated by Shackleford's quote. Thus, the inability to take actions besides Dash translates over to an inability to take bonus actions besides Dash. Thus, the "Charging Wind" may have RoC, but it is against both RaW and RaI.

[coredump]

No one is saying that a 'standard' action and a Bonus Action are interchangeable. No one is saying they are the 'same thing'. That is a strawman argument that no one is making.
But let me highlight in bold the pertinent parts of the rules that you quoted....



****
Your Turn

On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first. Your speed— sometimes called your walking speed—is noted on your character sheet.


Bonus Actions

Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action.
And let me add another:

Reactions

Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction.



The spell doesn't prevent you from taking actions, just any action that isn't Dash. You still have all your bonus actions at your disposal.

The spell says the only action you can take is the Dash Action. The spell does *not* limit that restriction only to the action you get by default on each of your turns. It also applies to the 'additional action' you sometimes get as a bonus, referred to as a Bonus Action. As well as the 'special action' you sometimes get in special situations called a Reaction.

They are all actions, different types of reactions with different rules...but they are all actions, and thus all restricted by the spell.

[MaxWilson]

If they grapple you, your movement is reduced to 0. Carrying people is on the table, potentially. However size restrictions are still in play, so you are only going to be able to carry two people unless the rest are Small (and you thus qualify as a mount). If you are Enlarged somehow, it does function rather well.

This here is the best abuse of Wind Walk. Don't Wind Walk the other PCs--Wind Walk their mounts. Now the PCs get to zip up to enemies at 300' of speed (about 33 mph), hit them, and then Disengage again using the mount's action. Nothing in the spell text says you can't be ridden while in wind form.

And despite the silliness of that suggestion, here's the thing: you can do almost exactly that same thing with Phantom Steed anyway, at 5th level. And it's a ritual so it's not even limited-use.

So while I would put the kibosh on that usage on the grounds of "that's ridiculous", I wouldn't put the kibosh on it on the grounds of "that's overpowered." Monsters need to be able to handle fast-moving PCs.

[stenver]

Back to OP:
1: the scouting will be stopped by first closed door. Creatures can still attack you (including OA) if you get too close. They can grapple you. Some traps can still hit you.


What do you mean, you are a cloud, a wind, you can get through the cracks.



3: You can't cast spells while turned into a cloud. Wind Walk has a casting time of 1 minute, so you can't precast Detect Magic either. Seeing auras with Detect Magic takes an action, which you can't take in cloud form.

5: You can't cast spells while turned into a cloud. Wind Walk has a casting time of 1 minute, so you can't precast Detect Evil and Good either.


Detect magic/evil lasts for 10 min, so no problem there.



6: you can provide half cover when you stop between the target creature and someone else. That's it. No stopping ranged weapons, no blinding anyone, and you could be attacked. Expeditious Retreat can't be combined with Wind Walk for the same reasons mentioned in 1 and 5


I am sure you can convince your DM how that might be confusing for creature.



7: that's the spell working as intended, though for the reasons mentioned in 1, 5 and 6, you can't combine Wind Walk with Find the Path from the same caster.


Yes you can, find the path lasts longer than 1 min.


I don't see anything that says you can't be grappled. By an ally. Could turn yourself into a weapons platform full of archers and blasters, moving at half speed, if your strength was high enough.


This here is the best abuse of Wind Walk. Don't Wind Walk the other PCs--Wind Walk their mounts. Now the PCs get to zip up to enemies at 300' of speed (about 33 mph), hit them, and then Disengage again using the mount's action. Nothing in the spell text says you can't be ridden while in wind form.

That's awesome!

[Coidzor]

The irony of this statement just made the forums explode a little. :smallbiggrin:

Frankly, the tangent as a whole amounts to a bunch of pots calling one another kettles. :smallsigh:

[Zalabim]

What do you mean, you are a cloud, a wind, you can get through the cracks.
The spell doesn't give you any ability to slip through cracks. In order to give you that ability, it has to say so.




Detect magic/evil lasts for 10 min, so no problem there.

Yes you can, find the path lasts longer than 1 min.

Since Wind Walk takes 1 minute to cast, the caster of wind walk can't have any concentration spell up while casting it. Also, the transformation back and forth incapacitates you for a minute, so with the probable exception of the first casting, no caster can have a concentration spell up in the cloud form.

[stenver]

The spell doesn't give you any ability to slip through cracks. In order to give you that ability, it has to say so.


Fair enough



Since Wind Walk takes 1 minute to cast, the caster of wind walk can't have any concentration spell up while casting it. Also, the transformation back and forth incapacitates you for a minute, so with the probable exception of the first casting, no caster can have a concentration spell up in the cloud form.

But you don't cast it. You transform.
i.e.
1. Cast wind walk
2. Transform to human
3. Cast detect X
4. Transform to wind

[JackPhoenix]

But you don't cast it. You transform.
i.e.
1. Cast wind walk
2. Transform to human
3. Cast detect X
4. Transform to wind

Zalabim already mentioned it: you're incapacitated while transforming, being incapacitated breaks concentration


I am sure you can convince your DM how that might be confusing for creature.

I wouldn't go there, by the same logic, you would be severely disoriented yourself, likely worse than any effect it would have on the enemy. Just try to circle around someone/thing at full speed for a while and note how dizzy you'll feel. Now imagine moving 20x as fast. It would be like being on a centrifuge... except park centrifuges go about 70-80 km/h, you'll be moving both faster (600'/6s is over 100 km/s) and in a smaller radius

[Shining Wrath]

Zalabim already mentioned it: you're incapacitated while transforming, being incapacitated breaks concentration



I wouldn't go there, by the same logic, you would be severely disoriented yourself, likely worse than any effect it would have on the enemy. Just try to circle around someone/thing at full speed for a while and note how dizzy you'll feel. Now imagine moving 20x as fast. It would be like being on a centrifuge... except park centrifuges go about 70-80 km/h, you'll be moving both faster (600'/6s is over 100 km/s) and in a smaller radius

Assumes you have an inner ear while in the form of a cloud of gas.

[MrStabby]

Frankly, the tangent as a whole amounts to a bunch of pots calling one another kettles. :smallsigh:

I don't really get the amount of bile in this thread. Sure, some people missed that the word "action" may have different meanings (and others may consider such a linguistic distinction the height of pedantry) and hence a debate about whether a Bonus Action is an Action or an action.

But either right or wrong they seem to be understandable starting readings of rules. Certainly it was sufficiently uncertain to make me go back to the rule book to check; I can't get mad with anyone over that type of confusion.

Personally I think that not being able to use your Action is different from not being able to use your Action except for certain things. I think being able to use your Action to dash counts as being able to use your Action.

The text about losing your Bonus Action if you can't take an action does not have any corresponding text about restricting your bonus action if your action is restricted.

Now I am not saying this was intended. Maybe it was, but probably not. Would I allow windwalk to be used with charger? Probably - someone invests in a feat that gives a combat style based on moving very fast and combined it with a spell that moves them very fast? Seems legitimate, fun and an appropriate investment for the power level.

[RickAllison]

The spell doesn't give you any ability to slip through cracks. In order to give you that ability, it has to say so.





Since Wind Walk takes 1 minute to cast, the caster of wind walk can't have any concentration spell up while casting it. Also, the transformation back and forth incapacitates you for a minute, so with the probable exception of the first casting, no caster can have a concentration spell up in the cloud form.

So we have two likely scenarios for how gassy the Wind Walkers are. They are truly gaseous and so can do all sorts of fun things like going through cracks to bypass obstacles (adding text into the spell that doesn't exist), or still of appropriate form and so prevents that (but which also totally allows mounts to be Wind Walked to gain all the advantages with none of the penalties).

So choose your rules abuse, effectively!

[Zalabim]

A wind walking mount can move very fast, but it can still only Dash. It can no longer disengage, so melee combat is a bit trickier, and it cannot dodge, so even with resistance, it isn't hard to kill a normal horse. And there's no safe landing clause for when your mount dies or loses wind walking. It would be a heck of a visual effect though, fighting from the back of a horse-shaped cloud zooming around.

[MaxWilson]

Zalabim already mentioned it: you're incapacitated while transforming, being incapacitated breaks concentration

I wouldn't go there, by the same logic, you would be severely disoriented yourself, likely worse than any effect it would have on the enemy. Just try to circle around someone/thing at full speed for a while and note how dizzy you'll feel. Now imagine moving 20x as fast. It would be like being on a centrifuge... except park centrifuges go about 70-80 km/h, you'll be moving both faster (600'/6s is over 100 km/s) and in a smaller radius

I think you mean "over 100 km/h", or about 30% faster than the park centrifuge you mentioned.

It's really not that fast by modern standards--as long as you're moving in a straight line. Moving in circles, yeah, that would be dizzying.

[JackPhoenix]

I think you mean "over 100 km/h", or about 30% faster than the park centrifuge you mentioned.

It's really not that fast by modern standards--as long as you're moving in a straight line. Moving in circles, yeah, that would be dizzying.

Yes, km/s was a typo, but I meant 20 times as fast as moving normal movement speed... I added the centrifuge part later when I looked how fast they go and propably could've worded it better.

[RickAllison]

A wind walking mount can move very fast, but it can still only Dash. It can no longer disengage, so melee combat is a bit trickier, and it cannot dodge, so even with resistance, it isn't hard to kill a normal horse. And there's no safe landing clause for when your mount dies or loses wind walking. It would be a heck of a visual effect though, fighting from the back of a horse-shaped cloud zooming around.

The spell ending does have a safe landing clause built in, but you are right that there is nothing for death. Well, maybe you could wait on top of the corpse for the remainder of the eight hours :smallbiggrin:

Although if you have a party with ranged capabilities and-or polearms, it seems like a pretty decent strategy.

[MaxWilson]

The spell ending does have a safe landing clause built in, but you are right that there is nothing for death. Well, maybe you could wait on top of the corpse for the remainder of the eight hours :smallbiggrin:

Although if you have a party with ranged capabilities and-or polearms, it seems like a pretty decent strategy.

But the thing is, Phantom Steed is a better strategy because that steed can Disengage/Dodge. So can a paladin's mount from Find Steed, and so can a regular horse (or donkey!) bought for 60 gp (or 8 gp for the donkey!).

Mounted combat is very strong in 5E because the mount gets its full actions and the rider gets the full benefit of those actions. And the strength of mounted combat feeds into the strength of ranged combat.

By the time you can Wind Walk, any monster that can't deal with kiting one way or another is already toast. Wind Walking your mount is just yet another implementation of the same old strategy.

[RickAllison]

But the thing is, Phantom Steed is a better strategy because that steed can Disengage/Dodge. So can a paladin's mount from Find Steed, and so can a regular horse (or donkey!) bought for 60 gp (or 8 gp for the donkey!).

Mounted combat is very strong in 5E because the mount gets its full actions and the rider gets the full benefit of those actions. And the strength of mounted combat feeds into the strength of ranged combat.

By the time you can Wind Walk, any monster that can't deal with kiting one way or another is already toast. Wind Walking your mount is just yet another implementation of the same old strategy.

Well yeah, but it's faster!

Ideally, the reason you really want this is for people you don't want fighting in close. This is a great spell for a war zone, for example, because you can have your scouts running around outside of reach, or your skirmishes out of casting range.

[Vogonjeltz]

I don't see anything that says you can't be grappled. By an ally. Could turn yourself into a weapons platform full of archers and blasters, moving at half speed, if your strength was high enough.

You can't move at all if grappled.

Grapple is off the table as there's no plausible way to grab a cloud.

[Saeviomage]

Wind walking party mounts is, of course, far superior to wind walking the party, because it negates the need to take a minute to switch form if you find yourself in combat.

[Socratov]

step 1. you are a cloud, that means people can breathe you
step 2. You go up some enemy's breathing organs.
step 3. (here it gets fun) you revert.
step 4. after 1 minute you burst yourself like Ripley's Alien

rinse and repeat.

[RickAllison]

step 1. you are a cloud, that means people can breathe you
step 2. You go up some enemy's breathing organs.
step 3. (here it gets fun) you revert.
step 4. after 1 minute you burst yourself like Ripley's Alien

rinse and repeat.

And it is points like this why we must be willing to accept that the mounts can be ridden, because the logical extensions of not having a form can have numerous unfortunate consequences!

[Socratov]

And it is points like this why we must be willing to accept that the mounts can be ridden, because the logical extensions of not having a form can have numerous unfortunate consequences!

if not, that, most certainly interesting consequences....

[RickAllison]

if not, that, most certainly interesting consequences....

Oh yes. The spell would certainly become more powerful when used on the party, as it would mean they could bypass any defenses that aren't literally air-tight.

[Socratov]

Oh yes. The spell would certainly become more powerful when used on the party, as it would mean they could bypass any defenses that aren't literally air-tight.

well, that goes without saying. However, there is also the question of catching an adventurer in a bottle of sorts... If the bottle is big enough you can trap them wihtout air and have them suffocate. maybe a nice tatic for the big bad and his team of evil ghostbusters.

[RickAllison]

well, that goes without saying. However, there is also the question of catching an adventurer in a bottle of sorts... If the bottle is big enough you can trap them wihtout air and have them suffocate. maybe a nice tatic for the big bad and his team of evil ghostbusters.

But how would you get them in a bottle? When scientists are trying to collect air in a space, they have to use expensive equipment to force air into the space. Trying to catch someone in a bottle would be nigh-impossible, they would flow over the outside of the bottle.

Essentially, a bottle would have to be both large enough to contain them (not hard since gases are compressible), but also for the Wind Walkers to enter of their own volition without sensing that it is going to be sealed. Oh, and it has to be airtight, which becomes more difficult to do with such size.

[Socratov]

But how would you get them in a bottle? When scientists are trying to collect air in a space, they have to use expensive equipment to force air into the space. Trying to catch someone in a bottle would be nigh-impossible, they would flow over the outside of the bottle.

Essentially, a bottle would have to be both large enough to contain them (not hard since gases are compressible), but also for the Wind Walkers to enter of their own volition without sensing that it is going to be sealed. Oh, and it has to be airtight, which becomes more difficult to do with such size.

well, basically a reverseengineered decanter of endless water, but with air instead of water, and as a hose of sorts that can be put on the opening of a bottle. Also, it seems to have lightning like bolts of magic and a nice switch. 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[Vogonjeltz]

And it is points like this why we must be willing to accept that the mounts can be ridden, because the logical extensions of not having a form can have numerous unfortunate consequences!

There's a form, but it's a gaseous one, which suggests it can't be ridden.

As for inhalation, the spell doesn't seem to allow the characters to undergo deformation anymore than they normally would, so I'd rule it as either impossible or lethal only for the character in gaseous form as having ones body torn asunder tends to be fatal and the spell only grants them resistance to damage, suggesting that any rending of their form is in fact lethal.

[RickAllison]

There's a form, but it's a gaseous one, which suggests it can't be ridden.

As for inhalation, the spell doesn't seem to allow the characters to undergo deformation anymore than they normally would, so I'd rule it as either impossible or lethal only for the character in gaseous form as having ones body torn asunder tends to be fatal and the spell only grants them resistance to damage, suggesting that any rending of their form is in fact lethal.

But here is where there is a logical disconnect. You are saying that because it is a gaseous form, the rider isn't able to remain on it because they pass through. But isn't that being torn asunder as well, and actually being bisected

On the other hand, we can just steal the rules from the Gaseous Form spell to cover this.

[Vogonjeltz]

But here is where there is a logical disconnect. You are saying that because it is a gaseous form, the rider isn't able to remain on it because they pass through. But isn't that being torn asunder as well, and actually being bisected

On the other hand, we can just steal the rules from the Gaseous Form spell to cover this.

I'm drawing from the character only recieving resistance to damage (rather than being immune to damage) to consider that, if a sword passing through the gaseous form harms the character, than surely breathing in half of the form would be like cutting the character in half and be utterly lethal.

I'm inclined to think the form would be incapable of riding, even if that made sense, why wind walk if you're riding? If you wind walk you can be moving way faster. It just seems like a scenario that would never occur.

[JackPhoenix]

I'm inclined to think the form would be incapable of riding, even if that made sense, why wind walk if you're riding? If you wind walk you can be moving way faster. It just seems like a scenario that would never occur.

It's not WW character riding a mount, it's character in normal form riding WW mount for the ability to do whatever and move extremely fast at the same time.

[Vogonjeltz]

It's not WW character riding a mount, it's character in normal form riding WW mount for the ability to do whatever and move extremely fast at the same time.

One can not ride a gaseous cloud, it can't hold up anything.