Best Gestalt For Two Classes

[Bartmanhomer]

What's the best gestalt or multiclass for two classes?

[AvatarVecna]

Please specify what you mean. Are you asking about "best gestalt combo", "best multiclass combo", or "best gestalt/multiclass combo"? Also, what do you mean by "best"?

[Waker]

Best is somewhat subjective in this case. It really comes down to what you are trying to accomplish and what resources you have at your disposal. A Wizard//Factotum or Psion//Factotum would be quite powerful because of full casting progression, Int synergy, action economy, and so on.

[Bartmanhomer]

Please specify what you mean. Are you asking about "best gestalt combo", "best multiclass combo", or "best gestalt/multiclass combo"? Also, what do you mean by "best"?
Best gestalt/multiclass combo. What I mean by best is very powerful and unbeatable.

[Jack_Simth]

What's the best gestalt or multiclass for two classes?
Best is "whatever you will have the most fun with that does not interfere with another's fun". Character power does not trump player or DM fun. It's hard to stress that enough.

However, if you want mechanical advice, and here's some general guidelines; this particular one was slanted towards Pathfinder, but most of the same stuff applies in 3.5 or pretty much any closely-related system



1) Avoid MAD, look for SAD. Sure, that Paladin//Wizard looks great on paper... but to play him as a Paladin and a Wizard, you need Str (melee), Dex (AC, as you can't use armor), Con (HP), Int (Spells), Wis (Spells again), and Cha (Various Paladin class features). The Paladin//Oracle, on the other hand, is no more MAD than a normal Paladin (Str for melee, Con for HP, charisma for spells and Paladin class features, maybe a touch of Wis for Paladin spells - no need for Dex, as you've got heavy armor proficiency).

2) Watch the Action Economy, look for passive/active combinations. Sure, that Sorcerer//Oracle looks good on paper (ALL THE SPELLS ALL THE TIME), but it doesn't work out that way generally - both classes are competing for the same set of actions, so you're not really significantly better than a normal Oracle or a normal Sorcerer. Something like a Rogue//Druid, on the other hand, is passively adding sneak attack dice to the multiple natural attacks + Pounce that the Druid gets through Wildshape; as a combat druid, it's all using the same set of actions at once. An Oracle//Paladin gets a lot of nice passive benefits from the Paladin side (Divine grace, swift-action self healing, heavy armor proficiency, full BAB, d10 HD), and can do some very active stuff with the Oracle side (spells and/or long-term buffs to wade into melee).

3) Avoid class features that interfere with each other. Sure, that Sorcerer//Paladin looks pretty good... but it's hard to cast Arcane spells in heavy armor, so you need to either give up much of the Sorcerer casting, or you need to give up much of the cheap AC that comes from heavy armor that the Paladin side lets you use. If you use a Divine caster instead of an Arcane one, however, there's no problems casting in armor.

4) Make sure to end up with a nice chassis. Yes, that Wizard//Sorcerer ends up with ultimate arcane might... but it's a d6 hit die, one good save, and poor BAB. You want at least two good saves (and can usually get three), a d8 hit die (although d10 is better), and at least medium BAB. That Druid//Rogue gets a d8 HD, all good saves, and medium BAB. That Paladin//Oracle gets d10 HD, two good saves, and full BAB.

5) The game still rewards specialization. Unless you're short party members, don't try to be a Jack of all trades, as you're likely to end up a master of none. You've only got one set of feats, one allocation of wealth, and so on. A Paladin//oracle and an Oracle//paladin look very similar if that's all you know about them, but they're actually quite different. The first uses Oracle buffs to supplement the Paladin abilities and wade into melee, and picks up feats and items primarily related to melee (so Power Attack, cleave, a nice sword, good armor, and so on). The second uses Paladin benefits to be able to slack off on a few things the Oracle would otherwise need while the Oracle zaps away with spells (so metamagic, extra revelation, Charisma boosters, metamagic rods, and so on). They play quite differently. If you try to be a full Oracle//Paladin, however, your feats and wealth are going to be stretched quite thin, and you'll be less useful at either role.

Edit: Oh yes, and you may have problems obeying all of these completely. That's actually OK. You'll usually end up not using at least some class features - for instance, that Oracle//paladin isn't going to be getting much use out of that full BAB, due to how easy it is to land (ranged) touch spells. It's still a strong combination. All else being equal, the more of these you can follow, and the better you can follow them, the stronger overall the character. However: Character power does not trump player or DM fun. It's hard to stress that enough. You're playing a game with no real stakes. The only true definition of winning is "Did everyone have consequence-free fun?" If the answer is yes, then you won. If the answer is no, then you lost. In the end, your character doesn't really matter: You do, and your friends do. If everyone has fun playing a party of bards that get TPK'd every other session? That's a win. If everyone has fun playing a party of optimized characters that roll over CR+10 encounters? That's a win too. If someone at the table is perpetually bored with the uber-characters, that's a loss. If something in-game breaks a real-life friendship, that's a loss too. Know your actual priorities.
Edit:
Best gestalt/multiclass combo. What I mean by best is very powerful and unbeatable.
Taking the statement at face value: No such beast at a gaming table that's more than theoretical. You can get some pretty strong combinations, but everything that a DM will let fly is going to be at least slightly situational (and the DM controls circumstances). Besides: Rolling over everything gets boring after a little while.

[Seppo87]

Pun-pun is unbeatable at lv3 without gestalt.

Please set an optimization ceiling, because the top is much higher than what you think/want

[AvatarVecna]

Best gestalt/multiclass combo. What I mean by best is very powerful and unbeatable.

Pun-Pun is a TO build that has literally infinite everything, has every ability in the game, and can even make up completely new abilities, like "I Win (Ex): You win", and that's it.

[Jack_Simth]

Pun-pun is unbeatable at lv3 without gestalt.They actually got him down to level 1... an Old Human Paladin on point-buy within average starting wealth making the DC listed in Fiendish Codex I to know enough about Pazuzu to call him, kick off a short Wish loop, and initiate the pun-pun setup that way.

This is why I added the clause "at a gaming table that's more than theoretical" to my statement about "no such beast".

[martixy]

Pun-Pun is a TO build that has literally infinite everything, has every ability in the game, and can even make up completely new abilities, like "I Win (Ex): You win", and that's it.

You do realize that is literally the only valid answer to the question as posed.

A rather more contextually-appropriate response is for someone to explain to OP that the game doesn't really work that way. Like Jack is trying.

[daremetoidareyo]

monk 20//knight 20

you can force your opponent to fight you! Then you stun fist them and pwn the game!

[AvatarVecna]

You do realize that is literally the only valid answer to the question as posed.

A rather more contextually-appropriate response is for someone to explain to OP that the game doesn't really work that way. Like Jack is trying.

It being the only valid answer to the question is the reason I gave that answer. And me pointing out the relative stupidity of the question is pointless: if the OP doesn't really care about the thread beyond making posts, me telling them about how their question has no good answer due to poor phrasing is a waste of my time; if they do care, Jack is already doing a much better job of explaining why that question is terrible than I ever could, and the OP will likely rephrase their question in a way that can actually allow for discussion beyond "Pun-Pun [/thread]".

The alternative is for me to go into exhaustive detail on every decent combo I can think of, which would take a lot of time and would turn out to be nothing but a rehash of basically every generic gestalt thread every created.

[martixy]

I think I tried to respond to a different post, hence the tone of my previous reply.

In any case, a somewhat less of a infinite everything, I personally am a fan of the psionic action economy abuse shenanigans.
Technically it can be countered by more of the same, but IMO it's more fun to do than having a passive I Win ability.

[AvatarVecna]

I think I tried to respond to a different post, hence the tone of my previous reply.

In any case, a somewhat less of a infinite everything, I personally am a fan of the psionic action economy abuse shenanigans.
Technically it can be countered by more of the same, but IMO it's more fun to do than having a passive I Win ability.

Ah. My apologies as well for being a bit overly caustic.

In any case, while it's not exactly limited to gestalt, I like H.I.V.E. builds that abuse the cross-edition confusion on swarm rules, as far as super-powerful builds go: with a big enough start up, you've got a caster with essentially infinite CL, casting stat, feats, skill points, and actions per round (which also ends up giving you effectively infinite HP if you took the Int for HP feat, and effectively infinite saves if you took the Cha to Saves feat, and effectively infinite AC if you dip to get Int or Cha to AC). A similar build can give it a run for its money, but most anything lesser will get obliterated.

[Pyromancer999]

Not super synergetic to start, but Wizard 10/Geomancer 10//Druid 15/Planar Shepherd 5 would be not too shabby. Just enough Planar Shepherd levels to get you a Planar Bubble, plus the Geomancer levels give you some buffs plus let you key all of your dual 9th-level casting off Int, and you can prepare spell slots from whichever class in any spell slot.

[Necromancy]

Pun-pun is unbeatable at lv3 without gestalt.

Please set an optimization ceiling, because the top is much higher than what you think/want

Why does someone always have to bring up stupid pun-pun. You may as well try to stat the DM. It's never helpful in any form and certainly didn't help here.

As to the OPs question, there is no "most powerful" gestalt. That won't stop these guys from trying though, but we would need to know a lot of info to do it

Books allowed?
Limits on prestige classes?
Limits on total number of classes?
Campaign?

[Seppo87]

Why does someone always have to bring up stupid pun-pun. You may as well try to stat the DM. It's never helpful in any form and certainly didn't help here.

Because he asked for the "most powerful and ubeatable".

Bringing up "stupid pun-pun" is about helping OP to realize he has no clue of how high the optimization ceiling is, and no sensible answer other than pun-pun exists unless he is the one to set limits

You might argue that "obviously pun-pun is too much optimized" and that would be probably true. However, many popular TO would be, depending on the table.
How are we supposed to know at which point it's "too much" for his table, when there are DMs that panic at the idea of a monk with high AC or a twf rogue dealing too much damage? (not to mention Shock Trooper, Dmm persist and any other mid-op element)

Unless he is the one who informs us about it, there is no guarantee our estimation of "fair" power will fall in line with his needs.
Furthermore, his only guidline was pretty specific: "most powerful and unbeatable"
It's just impossible to provide a useful answer, whereas it is possible to provide a certainly correct answer, and that answer is Pun Pun.

It's important that OP realizes how far optimization can go in order for him to provide the guidlines we need to help him

----

@OP

In DnD 3.5 it's entirely possible to break the game completely by using careful building choices, but nobody actually plays that stuff because that would be ridiculous and unfun.

There is no maximum. In this system, maximum = infinite.
From 0 to infinite, pretty much every range is covered.
A Core Fighter (non mounted) will be lucky dealing 200 damage at LV20 on a full attack.
A Frenzied Berserker goes easily above 800-1k (enough to one-shot everything in MM) and he can move before said Full Attack.
The "Ubercharger", a very well-known TO build,deals hundreds of thousands dmg.
An hulking hurler can throw the very planet you're standing on at you.
And then there's infinite damage.

Same goes for every other thing in the game. Ac ranges from negative to infinite. Power points loop, immunities stacking, action eceonomy abuse... Infinite everything is, in fact, possible - and has been done.

Problem is, the line that separates what is "legit" from what is "broken" (aka "cheese" in optimizator's jargon) is subjective.
60 AC at LV 20? You'd be surprised to hear how many people would laugh at this value.

If you really want to open the pandora's box, expect a lot of work on your part, because most build are difficult and articulated unless you have a deep knowledge of the game.
You will have to read and understand a lot of stuff you've never heard before.

Popular TOs (theoretical optimization) can be easily found with Google.

By the time you're finished, you will have an idea of what is an acceptable power level for you to work with.

Have fun.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

What everyone said.

But as a short answer at a very low abuse level: wizard, cleric and druid are probably the best single core classes. For gestalting I'd give a slight edge to cleric because the wizard will always be squishy at early levels without armor and because the druid is already a spellcasting dire bear and you can't really improve that. (Although a wizard-druid would be tempting, if your dm rules natural spell works for wizard spells). Cleric barbarian or something should work pretty well. After roughly 5 to 10 levels start multiclassing into prestige classes for cleric, you can easily stop progress in barbarian if the alternative would stop you from having full spell progression.

Without gestalting a well built wizard (with or without prestige classes) is probably a good bet for strongest class, at least past level 15 or so.

For non core classes: same principle, too many existing classes I don't know about to give better advice than that.