Old School Type Saves

[R.Shackleford]

Warning: I know a little about 2e and earlier D&D but not a lot.

In another thread the idea of 2e style saves, where ability scores are divorced from them, was brought up.

At first I thought it was completely silly like I have in the past.

But then the idea of saves being based off race, background, and class could show connection to ability scores via rolepkaying more so than a direct mechanical effect.

If your background is merchant, you may not be the smartest, wisest, or most charismatic person, but you know when someone is trying to swindle you and mentally influence your mood or decision.

So taking from 2e and 4e the system would be to roll a d20. A roll of 1-9 is a failure and a roll of 10 - 20 is a success.

If you are proficient with a save you have advantage.

Race: 1 Prof
Background: 1 Prof
Class: 2 Prof

Some monsters will have features that impose disadvantage on a save. This will only apply for the first save you make and not any additional saves.

Class features may also do this, doubt it though. Perhaps use your inspiration to impose disadvantage.

My Question!

What should the saving throw be in 5e if you were to adapt this system in.

I would say to keep AC as 5e has it instead of making it a reflex save.

So far I have...

Combat (shove, trip, special)

Restraint (grapple, stun, etc)

Paralyzation (paralyzation)

Poison (poison)

Explosion (fireball, burning hands)

Influence (Dominate, plane shift, posession, enchantments)

Deception (illusions, enchantments)

Polymorph (polymorph, petrification)


Should any of these be combined?

Suffocation and Death would be based off con, I wouldn't want that to be part of the above system. I don't know too many things that straight up kills you anymore so I don't think we need a Death Save.

Whatcha all think?

(special thanks to Tanarii)

[mgshamster]

Would your saves always be roughly 50/50, or would they improve as you level up, like they did in 2e?

For example, a warrior class started a spell saving throw around 17 (needed a 17+ on the d20), and by level 20 needed a 3.

[R.Shackleford]

Would your saves always be roughly 50/50, or would they improve as you level up, like they did in 2e?

For example, a warrior class started a spell saving throw around 17 (needed a 17+ on the d20), and by level 20 needed a 3.

I would keep saves roughly 50/50 in a single die roll but as you level up your ability to get advantage and to stack advantage (maximum 3 dices) will be increased.

Instead of having specific numbers show your growth, have gaining advantage show your growth.

Dire Bear goes to grapple Kayla the Level 7 Warlock. Due to it being a Dire Bear it has a feature that imposes disadvantage on the initial save of maneuvers.

Kayla has advantage on maneuver saves due to being a human (and being able to pick 1 Save prof). So she would roll just 1d20, however she really really doesn't want to hug this bear so she uses her inspiration to give herself advantage in the roll. She can use inspiration this way because she is level 7.

At level 14 Kayla is immune to disadvantage on saving throws that target her proficient saves.

So while the target number stays the same your ability to meet that number increases.

At least that's the initial idea.

[DanyBallon]

Why not keep saving throw the way they work right now (d20 vs DC) but changing the ST type like you proposed. Class would give you proficiency (this will make you better as you gain experience) and race and back grounds would give you a static bonus (+1 or +2). Static wouldn't be problematic in this case, because you removed the tie to Ability score.

This way, you keep a similar mechanic used through out the game, you don't need to rework any DC inbed into race/class/monster abilities.

What do you think?

[R.Shackleford]

Why not keep saving throw the way they work right now (d20 vs DC) but changing the ST type like you proposed. Class would give you proficiency (this will make you better as you gain experience) and race and back grounds would give you a static bonus (+1 or +2). Static wouldn't be problematic in this case, because you removed the tie to Ability score.

This way, you keep a similar mechanic used through out the game, you don't need to rework any DC inbed into race/class/monster abilities.

What do you think?

5e doesn't work off +1's and +2's, this goes against its very core More So than many other things. The UA feat +1's can go jump off a bridge for all I care.

The current saving throw system is stacked in such a way that if you don't have proficiency, focus on that score, or a source of advantage then you lose. Depending on your level you will need two of those items. The only difference is the names are changed.

Keeping the DC the same but improving your ability to make said DC works better as you no longer have to deal with "well, the barbarian is hit by hold person, he's out". I've seen this happen in play where the barbarian had a 15 Wis and still couldn't beat that 14 DC. The DM then always shyed away from targeting the barbarian with mental saves until he took Resilient (Wis) which was a few levels away. Anytime another player got hit by a Wis save they would give the barbarian a knowing look.

This also speeds up play for everyone involved and has the least amount of fiddly.

The DM doesn't have to check what the DCs is for her Death Crab Golem's scald attack. The player doesn't have to check what their DC is for their fireball. You don't have to worry about a new player doing the math wrong (intentionally or not).

Fireball: 8d6 damage, Explosion Save for half damage. Now since this is no longer tied directly to dexterity you can have a barbarian say "I make my save, I just stand there and laugh at the puny flames as they dance across my naked body" and that fits with what the save is. With it being a dexterity save... You have a barbarian dodging the fire instead of being a man/woman about it and ignoring the fire.

[DanyBallon]

5e doesn't work off +1's and +2's, this goes against its very core More So than many other things. The UA feat +1's can go jump off a bridge for all I care.

The current saving throw system is stacked in such a way that if you don't have proficiency, focus on that score, or a source of advantage then you lose. Depending on your level you will need two of those items. The only difference is the names are changed.

Keeping the DC the same but improving your ability to make said DC works better as you no longer have to deal with "well, the barbarian is hit by hold person, he's out". I've seen this happen in play where the barbarian had a 15 Wis and still couldn't beat that 14 DC. The DM then always shyed away from targeting the barbarian with mental saves until he took Resilient (Wis) which was a few levels away. Anytime another player got hit by a Wis save they would give the barbarian a knowing look.

This also speeds up play for everyone involved and has the least amount of fiddly.

The DM doesn't have to check what the DCs is for her Death Crab Golem's scald attack. The player doesn't have to check what their DC is for their fireball. You don't have to worry about a new player doing the math wrong (intentionally or not).

Fireball: 8d6 damage, Explosion Save for half damage. Now since this is no longer tied directly to dexterity you can have a barbarian say "I make my save, I just stand there and laugh at the puny flames as they dance across my naked body" and that fits with what the save is. With it being a dexterity save... You have a barbarian dodging the fire instead of being a man/woman about it and ignoring the fire.

While 5e don't work well with +1's and +2's for regular skill checks, saving throws and attack rolls, but if you disconnect saving throws from ability score that's a +0 to +5 that don't apply to your saving throw. Getting between +0 to +4 from a combination of race and background would give you back mostly the same numbers, but with players always pumping CON because there are 168 ST through out the game, and dump INT because there's only 8.

[R.Shackleford]

While 5e don't work well with +1's and +2's for regular skill checks, saving throws and attack rolls, but if you disconnect saving throws from ability score that's a +0 to +5 that don't apply to your saving throw. Getting between +0 to +4 from a combination of race and background would give you back mostly the same numbers, but with players always pumping CON because there are 168 ST through out the game, and dump INT because there's only 8.

The issue is fiddly-ness when it comes to 1's and 2's , not the math.

5e attempts to stay away from fiddly little bonuses.

The saving throws are still connected to ability scores but in a role-playing way. Of you have a background that gives prof in Explosion saves that could mean you use your Con, Dex, Int, or Wis more effectively than others when it comes to the save. You might be smarter than me on a base level but I will blow you out of the water when it comes to my area of expertise. So your Int may be higher but my saving throw for explosions will be better because I work around explosions due to my background as a grenadier in the royal navy or whatever (in game).

The advantage/disadvantage system is the least fiddly way of showing growth or detriment.

[DanyBallon]

The issue is fiddly-ness when it comes to 1's and 2's , not the math.

5e attempts to stay away from fiddly little bonuses.

The saving throws are still connected to ability scores but in a role-playing way. Of you have a background that gives prof in Explosion saves that could mean you use your Con, Dex, Int, or Wis more effectively than others when it comes to the save. You might be smarter than me on a base level but I will blow you out of the water when it comes to my area of expertise. So your Int may be higher but my saving throw for explosions will be better because I work around explosions due to my background as a grenadier in the royal navy or whatever (in game).

The advantage/disadvantage system is the least fiddly way of showing growth or detriment.

Then I misunderstood, what you were trying to do. I tought that you wanted to completely separate the saving throws from ability score just as how it was in 2e. Back then your class gave you a based for the different saves and they got better as you level up. Races could give you a static bonus increase. i.e. an halfling rogue was more evasive than a human rogue of the same level. But a 10th level human rogue would be more evasive than the 1st level hafling rogue.