Is mind bender a good progression class?

[TheCrowing1432]

So I was looking up beguiler builds and saw the mind bender is recommended for one level dip, looking at the rest of the abilities, they seemed rather cool, though the class had only half (5/10) progression.

If I did something like Beguiler 10/Mind Bender 10, would that be any good? or would I be less effective then the one level dip?

And by "effective" i mean a social manipulator.

[A_S]

So I was looking up beguiler builds and saw the mind bender is recommended for one level dip, looking at the rest of the abilities, they seemed rather cool, though the class had only half (5/10) progression.

If I did something like Beguiler 10/Mind Bender 10, would that be any good? or would I be less effective then the one level dip?

And by "effective" i mean a social manipulator.
Losing 5 levels of spellcasting progression is cripplingly bad for a character whose main ability is spellcasting. On top of that, many of the features you get at higher levels of Mindbender (Eternal Charm, Dominate, the caster level boost from Spell Power) more-or-less just duplicate things that you'd get anyway just by advancing Beguiler (since Charm Monster and Dominate Monster are on the Beguiler list anyway, and the +4 CL to Enchantments doesn't even make up for the 5 levels of actual casting you lose by taking the class).

If your DM makes every single thing you face immune to [mind-affecting], then there may be some cases where the skill bonuses from Mindbender make you better at social manipulation than you would be as a single-classed Beguiler...but overall, you'll be vastly more effective if you drop out of Mindbender early.

[ryu]

And really if your DM is making everything immune to mind effecting making heavy use of stuff that does that as one of its main tricks seems counterproductive. I just don't see a good situation to go all the way with it. One level dip for mindsight is still amazing though.

[Barbarian Horde]

Just take the level 1 dip like everyone else.

[Mystral]

So I was looking up beguiler builds and saw the mind bender is recommended for one level dip, looking at the rest of the abilities, they seemed rather cool, though the class had only half (5/10) progression.

If I did something like Beguiler 10/Mind Bender 10, would that be any good? or would I be less effective then the one level dip?

And by "effective" i mean a social manipulator.

Mindbender is usually seen as only good for a 1 level dip for telepathy, nothing more. You lose a lot and gain next to nothing you couldn't do with spells.

It is by no means unplayable, though. If your campaign allows for enough enchantment, a character like yours is still perfectly servicable, but it would be weaker than a straight beguiler.

[noce]

You also lose advanced learning, a very useful tool to handle your flaws.
If you're concerned about mind-affecting immune enemies, advance beguiler and take Freezing Glance with advanced learning.

EDIT: the tier system for PrCs places Mindbender at a -2 (except for 1 level dips).
This basically means that a Beguiler with 10 mindbender levels drops from T3 to T5.
I know how flawed the tier system can be and how little it matters, but it's still useful to give you an idea on how bad the PrC is.

[eggynack]

On top of all the other issues, the mindbender's abilities just aren't that good. Sure, you get a bunch of cool charm/dominate stuff, but it's not like it seriously overpowers the stuff of that type that you have native access to by virtue of your status as a beguiler. What is making these effects permanent really doing for you? Charm person can already be made to last for an entire day, and dominate person lasts for full fledged days, so you're just gaining the ability to not have to cast these spells periodically, and only in these particular circumstances. Decent, but not amazing. The other abilities are, again, fine, but they're not special. All in all, the whole pile of stuff could plausibly be worth it if you were getting full advancement, though it wouldn't be anywhere near the best you could be doing. Without advancement, it's full fledged awful.

[TheCrowing1432]

You also lose advanced learning, a very useful tool to handle your flaws.
If you're concerned about mind-affecting immune enemies, advance beguiler and take Freezing Glance with advanced learning.

EDIT: the tier system for PrCs places Mindbender at a -2 (except for 1 level dips).
This basically means that a Beguiler with 10 mindbender levels drops from T3 to T5.
I know how flawed the tier system can be and how little it matters, but it's still useful to give you an idea on how bad the PrC is.

Geeze, I didnt know it dropped that much. Ok, thanks for telling me

[eggynack]

Geeze, I didnt know it dropped that much. Ok, thanks for telling me
As was stated, the meaning of the +'s and -'s are very loose. I'd be surprised if mind bender dropped beguiler below tier four, given that that would mean dropping below the adept. It's a big drop though.

[Necroticplague]

Well, let's look at the abilities you get not at first level:

Push the weak mind: Just cast Suggestion. Better in every way.
Eternal Charm: 1 day/level should be long enough for any purpose you need, just cast Charm Monster.
Mindread: Just cast Detect Thoughts.
Enchantment spell power: doesn't make up for the CL lost to the class.
Dominate: you can cast Dominate Monster on your own.
Thrall: Again, 1 day/CL is, for most useful purposes, already infinite, just cast Dominate Monster.
Skill Boost: too minor a bonus to really matter, and really the only thing that you won't get from just advancing your beguiler casting more.

Plus, though not noted, several of the abilities have size limits the spell they're based off doesn't, so they're inferior. In summary: almost nothing you won't gain from progressing your casting more, and nothing worth the CL loss.

[Thurbane]

Just take the level 1 dip like everyone else.

Pretty much this; or see if you can convince your DM to houserule it to an 8/10 casting progression so you still get 9ths.

[noce]

Skill Boost: too minor a bonus to really matter, and really the only thing that you won't get from just advancing your beguiler casting more.

I'm going to disagree. Beguiler has 6 + int skill points, mindbender has 2 + int.
So even skill boosts are moot, I'd take Beguiler skill points and skill list everytime.

And for the sake of it, I also mention d6 instead of d4.


All in all, when you're level 20 and can cast spells up to 7th level, mostly from two school, mostly targeting will saves, mostly subject to spell resistance, without the skill points a beguiler has, well, I think that T5 is your place:
"Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well."

[eggynack]

All in all, when you're level 20 and can cast spells up to 7th level, mostly from two school, mostly targeting will saves, mostly subject to spell resistance, without the skill points a beguiler has, well, I think that T5 is your place:
"Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well."
Again, adept is tier four, and the beguiler likely has superior magical ability, even at that level where the comparison is at its worst (cause you've lost the most levels). The adept is running some really good 5th's, but the beguiler's full set of 5th's, 6th's, and 7th's seems to put you at least even.

[noce]

Again, adept is tier four.

Okay. Honestly, adept looks so crappy I'd put it in T5, too.
I agree with you about the adept being inferior, maybe our opinions differ regarding the tier system itself.

Anyway, I'll try not to derail the thread. :)

[eggynack]

Okay. Honestly, adept looks so crappy I'd put it in T5, too.
I agree with you about the adept being inferior, maybe our opinions differ regarding the tier system itself.
Adept is pretty sweet, actually. Their spell list has so many gems on it. Yes, they wind up with only eight 5th level spells, but there's practically no wasted space there. They get everything from raise dead to wall of stone to polymorph to true seeing, and a bunch more. There's a reason I ended up writing 5th, 6th, and 7th level spells for the beguiler, and it's because I don't think that the 7th level spells alone can compete with the adept's 5th's.

[Pluto!]

Can we not get bogged down in the PrC tier system? We all know it's a useless mess.

The important thing is that Mindbender is crazy worse than level 9 spells. It's not even close.

But Mindbender isn't worse enough that a Beguiler 10/Mindbender 10 and a Fighter would be playing the same game. Maybe it would drop the Beguiler to the Duskblade's level, but you're still talking about high-level spellcasters with high level effects. If you stick it on a Wizard, you're still going to be either stronger or comparable to Sorcerer power level at any given point in your career.