3.5 Gnome Beguiler Help

[Master O'Laughs]

Hello GITP,

In my ongoing 3.5 campaign, my cleric is at death's door. I was knocked unconscious and an axe was held to my throat to get the party to stop fighting. Our sorcerer is currently invisible and seems to be itching to restart the fight. I thought I would start working on a back up character in case the worst happens.

Since we are currently lacking a rogue, I was tossing between 2 different ideas, a throwing build (which I am finding to be rather hard/feat intensive to pull off), a rogue/cleric/shadowbane stalker, and a beguiler. All would be for trap finding skill monkeys. Due to stated concerns about the throwing build, and just having played a cleric, I am leaning towards the beguiler.

As far as race is concerned, I am heavily liking the whisper gnome. They have a lot of flavor even if I am missing out on the +1 DC to illusions.

The campaign is planned to go to lvl 13 or so and we are currently lvl 6. My build path is as follows:

Race: Whisper Gnome
Alignment: N
Class: Beguiler 6/(Shadowcrafter, shadow adept, or mindbender)1/Beguiler 1/ShadowCraft Mage 5

Feats:
lvl 1: Spell Focus Illusion
lvl 3: Greater Spell focus illusion
lvl 5(beguiler): Silent Spell
lvl 6: 1) Shadoweave magic (if allowed), 2) if not improved feint or improved initiative
lvl 9: Heighten spell

After that I am not bothering planning. I have tried asking my DM about the feats but have yet to hear back. Thought I would get some ideas though for improvement. Not looking to do earth spell stuff because I do not have the feat room and party is not optimized. I thought about extra silence to get more castings of the spell. Once I get auto silent illusions I could cast them from a silenced zone around myself or move near casters.

Skills I am focusing on bluff, concentration, disable device, move silently, open lock, search, and spellcraft. The skillpoints from my int mod will be used on other skills as needed so I am specialized in a few and a generalist in many. I am considering tumble but not sure if I should or not.

Attributes (yes we get stupid good starting stats):
STR 13-2=11
DEX 16+2=18
CON 14+2=16
INT 18+1 (lvl 4)=19
WIS 15
CHA 17-2=15

Equipment: 13000 starting gold (MIC disallowed)
Chainshirt +1 (1250)
Mithral Buckler +1 (2015)
Handy Haversack (2000)
Headband of Intellect (4000)
Goggles of Minute Seeing (1250)
MW Thieves Tools (100)

And the rest is filling things up.

Any suggestions that might be a better outfitting? I was thinking of boots of elven kind but I don't have the gold and I already get racial bonuses.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

EDIT: I had seen the Greater Spell Focus from deities and demigods and so thought there might be an issue with a +4 to Spell DC for 2 feats. Just saw it is simply a additional +1 DC in the PHB

[nedz]

Arcane Disciple is a very useful feat for Beguilers - and you can even take it several times.

You seem to have the trick with the 1 level dip before Beguiler 7 sussed out already.

[Troacctid]

I would suggest taking Obtain Familiar. A familiar shares all your skill ranks, so it's fantastic for a skill monkey, essentially letting you roll twice and take the better result on everything.

[Zeruel]

Try this one out:

Classes:
Rogue 1/Spellthief 1/Beguiler 10/Arcane Trickster 8

Feats:
1 Spell Focus (illusion)
3 Greater Spell Focus
6 Master Spellthief
9 Shadow Weave Magic/Arcane Thesis (any good)
12 *free*
15 *free*
18 *free*

With this you end up with 6d6 Sneak Attack, free Silent&Still feats, and with Master Spellthief at level 6 you can steal up to 9th level spells, because you get full-spellcasting -2. If you don't know what to do with the remaining feats, use them for some metamagic feat or for Arcane Thesis with some of your favorite spells, those will be a little stronger and auto-silenced&stilled.

----------------------------------------

As an alternative:

Beguiler 1/Spellthief 1/Warlock 1/Beguiler +3/Eldritch Theurge 10/Beguiler-*other full casting-progression PrC* +4

Feats: (almost paste 'n copy from above)

For this one to qualify you must buy a Lesser Chasuble of Fell Power before getting into E.Theurge, but in the end you have...:

Warlock Casting = 11 (3 least, 3 lesser and 1 superior invocation)
Beguiler Casting = 18 (9th level spells)
Eldritch Blast = 6d6
Sneak Attack = 1d6 (meh, but you could apply it to E.Blast to steal spells from 6 squares away!)


So, juicy enough? :smallwink:

[Troacctid]

With this you end up with 6d6 Sneak Attack, free Silent&Still feats, and with Master Spellthief at level 6 you can steal up to 9th level spells, because you get full-spellcasting -2.
Sure, if by 9th level you mean 1st level, since you don't have enough Spellthief levels to store anything higher.

Arcane Trickster is also basically just a worse version of Unseen Seer.

[Zeruel]

Sure, if by 9th level you mean 1st level, since you don't have enough Spellthief levels to store anything higher.

The feat Master Spellthief serves the purpose, go take a look at it and you'll understand.


Arcane Trickster is also basically just a worse version of Unseen Seer.

Yeah, not the best PrC around, but it has the best progression for both SA and spells. Besides, you can't enter the Unseen Seer with this since the beguiler hasn't any divination spell in its list, IIRC

[Troacctid]

The feat Master Spellthief serves the purpose, go take a look at it and you'll understand.
Master Spellthief doesn't improve your storage capacity. Being able to steal spells of up to 9th level is useless when you can only store one level of spells.


Yeah, not the best PrC around, but it has the best progression for both SA and spells. Besides, you can't enter the Unseen Seer with this since the beguiler hasn't any divination spell in its list, IIRC
What? No, the beguiler list is like 20% divination spells.

[Zeruel]

Master Spellthief doesn't improve your storage capacity. Being able to steal spells of up to 9th level is useless when you can only store one level of spells.

You have a point,but you still can deplete the enemy wizard spell storage, which I think it remains cool.


What? No, the beguiler list is like 20% divination spells.

Damn, you're right... Forgot about them since I don't really like those ones the class has. But still, SA progression is better. At this point I would trade 2 levels of Arcane Trickster to get the first 2 of Unseen Seer, at least to avoid the decrease in caster level for non-divination spells from 3rd level thereafter. And the beguiler outshines for illusion and enchantment spells, it'd be a pity to weaken them :smallbiggrin:

[Master O'Laughs]

I am pretty tied to Shadowcraft Mage. I like the idea of free silent and extended illusions. Also, At most we might get to lvl 15 so please avoid 20 lvl builds.

Mindbender seems like it would be skill expensive to qualify for due to intimidate not being a class skill. Also, the party has rings of telepathy so it diminished some of the perks of the level 1 ability (granted, those who don't have rings I would be able to communicate with).

if shadoweave magic gets disallowed, would combat expertise and improved feint be worth it? As long as I pump bluff I could consistently deny dex bonuses so my beguiler feature adds +1 DC to spells.

Do Items look good? I think I might add a cloak of resistance +1 to help my bad saves.

[Troacctid]

Mindbender seems like it would be skill expensive to qualify for due to intimidate not being a class skill. Also, the party has rings of telepathy so it diminished some of the perks of the level 1 ability (granted, those who don't have rings I would be able to communicate with).
One of the great advantages of telepathy is that it removes language barriers, which is very useful for Diplomacy, Bluff, and language-dependent spells like suggestion, all of which are bread and butter for a beguiler. You don't need Intimidate as a class skill because only 4 ranks are required, which is within the cap for a cross-class skill—although it does hurt a bit to lose those ranks.

Another good way to remove language barriers is to get a celestial as a familiar. The Celestial Familiar feat allows you to gain a lantern archon, musteval guardinal, or coure eladrin as a familiar, depending on your alignment. All of them have Tongues as a supernatural ability and can speak any language, making them universal translators, and since they share your skill ranks, they can make Diplomacy and Bluff checks on your behalf.


if shadoweave magic gets disallowed, would combat expertise and improved feint be worth it? As long as I pump bluff I could consistently deny dex bonuses so my beguiler feature adds +1 DC to spells.
No, feinting is a trap. You don't want to be in melee range, and +1 to save DCs isn't an efficient use of two feats. You can deny Dex to AC more efficiently with spells like glitterdust, blinding color surge, and greater invisibility.

[Master O'Laughs]

One of the great advantages of telepathy is that it removes language barriers, which is very useful for Diplomacy, Bluff, and language-dependent spells like suggestion, all of which are bread and butter for a beguiler. You don't need Intimidate as a class skill because only 4 ranks are required, which is within the cap for a cross-class skill—although it does hurt a bit to lose those ranks.

Another good way to remove language barriers is to get a celestial as a familiar. The Celestial Familiar feat allows you to gain a lantern archon, musteval guardinal, or coure eladrin as a familiar, depending on your alignment. All of them have Tongues as a supernatural ability and can speak any language, making them universal translators, and since they share your skill ranks, they can make Diplomacy and Bluff checks on your behalf.


No, feinting is a trap. You don't want to be in melee range, and +1 to save DCs isn't an efficient use of two feats. You can deny Dex to AC more efficiently with spells like glitterdust, blinding color surge, and greater invisibility.

Okay, so Mindbender's telepathy is worth it just due to what it means for spells. I did not realize that.

So feats would be
Lvl 1 Spell Focus (Illusion)
Lvl 3 Greater Spell Focus (Illusion)
Lvl 6 Shadoweave magic (if allowed) if not Improved Initiative or Arcane Disciple (which domain?)
Lvl 9 Heighten Spell

[Rebel7284]

If Shadoweave Magic is not allowed, I will recommend Versatile Spellcaster. Getting more castings of higher level spells is so great. Arcane Disciple is nice, but less useful for your specific build due to Shadowcraft Mage already greatly expanding your utility.

[Malroth]

Invisible spell applied to obscuring mist or fog cloud is a VERY good counter to true seeing opponents if you're illusion heavy.

[Master O'Laughs]

If Shadoweave Magic is not allowed, I will recommend Versatile Spellcaster. Getting more castings of higher level spells is so great. Arcane Disciple is nice, but less useful for your specific build due to Shadowcraft Mage already greatly expanding your utility.

Cool, also, if i wanted to buff enchanting would it be better to take spell focus (enchantment) or unsettling enchantment? I am leary of trying to do too much.


Invisible spell applied to obscuring mist or fog cloud is a VERY good counter to true seeing opponents if you're illusion heavy.

Is it because there is magic aura everywhere?

Also, for the advanced learning feature, what should be the spell I pick at lvl 3? I can only pick level 1 spells and not sure what is good. The lvl 7 spell will obviously be shadow conjuration to qualify for ScM.

[Master O'Laughs]

Also, I just saw this on a different thread:


Presumably, the way to do it at level 7 (or 6, even) would be to use Versatile Spellcaster to cast a Heightened Legion of Sentinels, which would qualify as your level 4 shadow spell.

Is this possible? it seems like you would need earthspell right? which would take all 3 feats. curious because if I could use my lvl7 advanced learning for ray of stupidity that would be nice. If it requires earth spell then I am not interested.

EDIT: If I took versatile spellcaster and heighten spell at lvl 1 and 3, would i be able to get ray of stupidity with my lvl 3 advanced learning choice?

[Malroth]

Is it because there is magic aura everywhere?


no, Magical auras are common enough that your opponent isn't going to try to counter you via detecting the presence or absence of magical auras (at least after lv 3) they're most likely to use Detect invisibility or true seeing on themselves instead. Invisible spell + fog cloud creates a sight obscuring area of mist but one that does NOT obscure the view of those relying on regular vision (thus those that see illusions can still see) but those with trueseeing see nothing but fog everywhere.

[Master O'Laughs]

no, Magical auras are common enough that your opponent isn't going to try to counter you via detecting the presence or absence of magical auras (at least after lv 3) they're most likely to use Detect invisibility or true seeing on themselves instead. Invisible spell + fog cloud creates a sight obscuring area of mist but one that does NOT obscure the view of those relying on regular vision (thus those that see illusions can still see) but those with trueseeing see nothing but fog everywhere.

That is an awesome trick! I will have to see if I can find feat room for it!

[Master O'Laughs]

Does the heighten spell and versatile spellcaster feats work in conjunction to allow access to shadowcraft mage with only a lvl 3 illusion spell with the shadow descriptor?

[Malroth]

You're capable of casting a lv 4 spell with a shadow descriptor so yes that combination would qualify provided you had the right lv 3 spell known to heighten.

[Necrov]

Does the heighten spell and versatile spellcaster feats work in conjunction to allow access to shadowcraft mage with only a lvl 3 illusion spell with the shadow descriptor?

This has been discussed time and time again. It relies upon shaky reading of RAW. But on the whole, no. A 3rd level spell with the shadow descriptor is not in any definition a 4th level spell with the shadow descriptor. It is simply a third level spell with metamagic applied, which makes it take a fourth level slot. Which still does not make it a 4th level spell.

[Troacctid]

This has been discussed time and time again. It relies upon shaky reading of RAW. But on the whole, no. A 3rd level spell with the shadow descriptor is not in any definition a 4th level spell with the shadow descriptor. It is simply a third level spell with metamagic applied, which makes it take a fourth level slot. Which still does not make it a 4th level spell.
In the case of Heighten Spell, the spell's effective level actually is increased, and all effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level. So you need to ask: is the prerequisite dependent on spell level? I think most people would say yes. Is it an effect? Well, that term is never actually defined in the rules, so I could see some room for interpretation. And of course, are you even able to cast the heightened spell at all? Remember, the general rules for class descriptions say that "If the entry is “—” for a given level of spells, the character may not cast any spells of that level." (Of course, that line makes no sense in the context of a multiclass character, because...the writers assumed that spellcasters would never multiclass, I guess?)

[Necrov]

In the case of Heighten Spell, the spell's effective level actually is increased, and all effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level. So you need to ask: is the prerequisite dependent on spell level? I think most people would say yes. Is it an effect? Well, that term is never actually defined in the rules, so I could see some room for interpretation. And of course, are you even able to cast the heightened spell at all? Remember, the general rules for class descriptions say that "If the entry is “—” for a given level of spells, the character may not cast any spells of that level." (Of course, that line makes no sense in the context of a multiclass character, because...the writers assumed that spellcasters would never multiclass, I guess?)

I think there is a vast difference in language between something being 'effectively' a 4th level spell and a 4th level spell. As always this comes down to shaky interpretation of RAW.

As it happens my signature has a quote from the last conversation I was involved in about this. Hilarity ensued.

[Troacctid]

It's treated as a 4th level spell for all effects that care about spell level. Is the prerequisite an effect? Then a heightened spell counts toward it. Is it not an effect? Then it doesn't.

[Necrov]

It's treated as a 4th level spell for all effects that care about spell level. Is the prerequisite an effect? Then a heightened spell counts toward it. Is it not an effect? Then it doesn't.


Requirements
Race: Gnome
Skills: Bluff 4 ranks , Hide 4 ranks
Feats: Spell Focus (illusion)
Spells: Able to cast at least three illusion spells, including at least one shadow spell of 4th level or higher.


And there we have it. A heightened third level spell with the shadow descriptor, definitely does not count -as- a 4th level spell with the shadow descriptor.

[Master O'Laughs]

Okay, not the biggest issue. I will just take the mindbender dip then. Thanks for all the help people.

EDIT: Any Item suggestions? The MiC is out because the DM sees it as the broken item compendium. Which is fine by me.

I was thinking
+1 chain shirt
+1 mithral buckler
headband of intellect (+2 Int)
Haversack (weight issues)
goggles of minute seeing
Cloak of resistance +1

[Troacctid]

Requirements
Race: Gnome
Skills: Bluff 4 ranks , Hide 4 ranks
Feats: Spell Focus (illusion)
Spells: Able to cast at least three illusion spells, including at least one shadow spell of 4th level or higher.


And there we have it. A heightened third level spell with the shadow descriptor, definitely does not count -as- a 4th level spell with the shadow descriptor.
Clearly the heightened spell does count as 4th level because that's literally the whole point of Heighten Spell. The questions are 1. is a requirement an "effect" (which quoting the text of the requirement really doesn't answer), and 2. can you cast the heightened spell in the first place? Question 2 is easy to bypass if you use a different method like Earth Spell rather than Versatile Spellcaster, so it's question 1 that really matters, and as far as I'm aware, the rules on the subject are unclear, so DM adjudication is necessary.

[Necrov]

Clearly the heightened spell does count as 4th level because that's literally the whole point of Heighten Spell. The questions are 1. is a requirement an "effect" (which quoting the text of the requirement really doesn't answer), and 2. can you cast the heightened spell in the first place? Question 2 is easy to bypass if you use a different method like Earth Spell rather than Versatile Spellcaster, so it's question 1 that really matters, and as far as I'm aware, the rules on the subject are unclear, so DM adjudication is necessary.


Heighten Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

What the question actually comes down to is whether or not 'effective' spell level means that it -is- a spell of that level. Now, if you read the first sentence of the quoted feat in exclusion, it would appear so. However reading the entire paragraph in context, as the following sentences are clearly explaining the mechanics of how the first sentence works, it would appear not.

After all why state that it increases the 'effective level of the spell...', if what you meant is 'increases the level of the spell'. Clearly then there is a difference between a spell level and an 'effective spell level' (though the actual meaning of the words tells us this).

All of these Versatile Spellcaster and Spells known abuses are always based on really shaky interpretations of RAW, which are at best debatable and at worst ridiculous.

So, no OP, in my opinion, for the reasons stated; I don't think versatile spellcaster and heightened spell are going to let you get early access to Shadowcraft Mage.

Also those items seem fine? Have you already got a stat increasing item? If not, I think it should be next on your list.

[Master O'Laughs]

Also those items seem fine? Have you already got a stat increasing item? If not, I think it should be next on your list.

Yeah, the headband of intellect. I also am thinking of looking for gloves of dexterity to increase reflex and AC (if i get a mithral chain shirt eventually).

Magic Items so far have been hard to come by, but we just opened up 2 new parts of the world so they might be more easily obtainable now.

[Necrov]

Yeah, the headband of intellect. I also am thinking of looking for gloves of dexterity to increase reflex and AC (if i get a mithral chain shirt eventually).

Magic Items so far have been hard to come by, but we just opened up 2 new parts of the world so they might be more easily obtainable now.

One of my favourite little bargain items for my High Elf Beguiler 14/Archmage 1 (The campaign took a really weird turn, and my 'fabulous' High Elf decided he'd like to become the Archmage of Illusion, which is a big deal in our campaign. We played until 15.) was Slippers of Spiderclimb. With really inventive uses. Trapfinding from the ceiling was one my favourites, and attacking people through a door, from the top rather than the bottom. It saves you actually casting the spell, and gives you another mode of movement.

Versatile Spellcaster is definitely a good beguiler feat by the way. You'll find at a certain point there'll be a level of spells you don't really favour and you'll look to trade them away for something a bit higher.