Alternative Source Spell - Prestige Class Qualification / Feat interaction

[schreier]

Hello again all,

I am trying to create another character for fun (this is more theoretical than practical right now) ...

I am considering a Theurge type, with:

Cleric 1/Trickster Spellthief 2/Mystic Theurge 6/Spellsinger 1/Sublime Chord 10 (w/ Versatile Spellcaster and Alternative Source Spell and Master Spellthief) -
For spells memorized, that would give:
Cleric 7 (1+6)
Trickster Spellthief 9 (2+6+1)
Sublime Chord 10

Now ... for spellcaster level, it depends on if Alternative Source Spell makes the Cleric an "Arcane spellcasting class" ... Arcane spells can be cast from the list, so I would think so?

That would make caster level:
Sublime chord: 10+2 (Trickster) = 12 ... that sets other arcane classes to 12 ...

If Cleric counts as arcane, you would have caster level 36 right? (12 Cleric+12 Spellthief+12 Chord)
If not, then cleric stays at 7, and chord/spellthief are both at 24

Does that seem right?

On a semi-related note ... would Alternative Source Spell allow the bladesinger level to add to cleric? Not saying it makes sense in this case - but does Cleric then qualify for "arcane" spellcaster classes? This would be more relevant without the Theurge level (for example, Cleric 5, spellthief 1, then advance cleric as an incantatrix?)

The main uses I've seen people recommending Alternative Source spell was to avoid Arcane spell failure, and to use DMM. There has been some theoretical discussion on early class qualification for prestige classes (like wizard 3/cleric into Theurge) - but I have not seen the "Advance arcane spellcasting class" really addressed.

Thanks
schreier

[Gildedragon]

Spellthief and Cleric have separate caster levels
Cleric doesn't count as an arcane caster; or if it did it'd not be eligible for Mystic Theurge.
Also you have to pick which ONE other arcane spellcasting class sublime chord levels are added to for the purposes of SubChord CL
If she had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a sublime chord, she must choose to which class to add her sublime chord levels for the purpose of determining her sublime chord spellcaster level.
And you add to the classes separately
Arcane Class A Levels + SubChord Levels = Arcane Class A CL
Arcane Class B Levels + SubChord Levels = Arcane Class B CL
Etc

If one wanted to be pedantic, it think one could argue that you don't add the levels in PRC, because they only advance spells and not the class itself
But I'd say chord and spellthief are at 19 (Spellthief 9 + Chord 10) and am not sure how you're getting to 24... Master spellthief, I see...
Lemme find the text for the feat
No: what MSpellthief does is stack Class Levels
So you get a level of Spellthief + (Spellthief + SubChord) for sublime chord, and SubChord + (Spellthief + SubChord) for spellthief

[schreier]

Here's my thought process and calculations:

The relevant rules from the feats and class in question

Feat:
Alternative Source Spell - You can prepare any of your spells as either divine or arcane.

Master Spellthief - Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells.

Class:
Sublime Chord - A sublime chord's caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class. If she had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a sublime chord, she must choose to which class to add her sublime chord levels for the purpose of determining her sublime chord spellcaster level.


First question: What is an "Arcane spellcasting class"? If it is a class that can cast arcane spells, then divine class (Cleric) should count as arcane if you have Alternative Source Spell - since it is a class that can cast arcane spells. There are multiple examples of classes that are both arcane and divine (Dread Necromancer, Sha'ir, etc). To me, it is the same as if a beguiler took Rainbow Servant to its capstone ability - it can cast divine spells.

In the 3.5 Official FAQ (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a) - page 44, there is a question if Southern Magician helps someone qualify for a divine spellcasting prestige class. It says "The Southern Magician feat does not allow you to cast divine spells per se. It only allows you to change the spells into divine spells once they have been cast" .... that is completely different than Alternative Source Spell ...

Comparing the two feats specific relevant language:
Southern Magician: "Once per day per two spellcaster levels, you can cast a divine spell as an arcane spell, or vice versa ... The actual source of the spell’s power doesn’t change, nor does its means of preparation. You are merely weaving the strands of magic together in an unconventional way that makes the spell behave somewhat differently."

Alternative Source Spell: "You can choose to prepare any of your divine spells as arcane spells or any of your arcane spells as divine spells."

The careful language in Southern magician, with the "actual source of the spell's power" phrase seems to differentiate it from the more sweeping language in Alternative Source spell. A cleric's spell is prepared as arcane, and cast as arcane ... thus, it seems to be an arcane spell casting class (both logically, and when parsing the FAQ answer on Southern Magician)

That's why I would argue that Cleric (in the above example, with Alternative Source Spell) can both qualify as an Arcane spellcasting class for the Master Spellthief feat. and could be advanced by an arcane spellcasting prestige class.



Now, in regards to my calculation of caster levels, the FAQ mentions the general rule of applying bonuses in the most beneficial way --- in the section on Practiced Spellcaster (pg 43), it says "The bonus from Practiced Spellcaster applies whenever it would be most beneficial to the caster" ...

applying that logic to the above character:
Cleric 1/Trickster Bard 2/Mystic Theurge 6/Spellsinger 1/Sublime Chord 10 ...

You first take the Sublime Chord - and add her level in Sublime Chord to her level in another Arcane spellcasting class. Sadly, I do not think that Mystic Theurge counts, since it advances another spellcasting class - and Sublime chord says levels in the class, not caster level -- so ... that would be Trickster Spellthief.
So Sublime Chord Caster level becomes 12 (10 for the class level, and 2 for the levels in Spellthief)

Since sublime chord says "sublime chord's caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class" -- this level 12 is applied to all of her arcane spellcasting classes. Now, if we assume that that includes Cleric, you have:
Cleric - spells known level 7 (1+6 (theurge)) but caster level 12 (from the sublime chord power)
Trickster Spellthief - spells known level 9 (2+6 (theurge) + 1(spellsinger)) but caster level 12 (from the sublime chord power)
Sublime Chord - spells known 10, caster level 12

Now ... from Master Spellthief, you add them all together to figure out the Master spellthief, which says "Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells" -- so you take:
Cleric level 12 + Trickster spellthief 12 + sublime chord 12 = level 36 for all arcane spellcasting classes ...



If you do not accept Cleric as arcane in this analysis, the only things that change are:
Cleric is level 7 for both caster level and spells known
AND
Cleric is excluded from the master spellthief calculation, so the caster level for both the spellthief and sublime chord go to 24 (12+12)

Also - if you add practiced spellcaster - I think it would raise the level of the sublime chord up front, which would then raise all to 16, resulting in either level 32 (no cleric) or 48 (with cleric)

[Troacctid]

Your Spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels stack to determine your caster level. Remember, this uses your class level, not their caster level. There is some debate on whether prestige classes that advance spellcasting count as being spellcasting classes—however, since both Mystic Theurge and Spellsinger say they are added to your previous arcane spellcasting class for the purpose of determining caster level and spells per day, they presumably count here regardless, so your caster level becomes (2+6+1)+10=19 for all your arcane spells.

Next, we apply Sublime Chord. Once again, this uses class level, not caster level, so your caster level becomes (2+6+1)+10=19 for both Sublime Chord and Spellthief.

You could also apply these effects in the reverse order. Doing so does not change the result.

Cleric, being a divine class, does not count toward either ability. Alternative Source Spell does not change this, except that it may improve the caster level of spells that are cast as arcane.

[Gildedragon]

You don't get to 24, even if I held that ALL the classes are added up together. First of all, the feat and class add together class levels, NOT caster levels.

With Sublime Chord we get the following

Spellthief CL = Spellthief Levels (with or without MT depending on how the DM rules) + Sublime Chord Levels
Sublime Chord = Sublime Chord Levels + Spellthief Levels (with or without MT, needn't be the same as the Spellthief)

Then with Master Spellthief "Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes..." which means you add the other class(es) to your spellthief levels, and you add your spellthief levels to the other classes (it does not mean you add other classes to other classes)

so you get the following:
Spellthief CL: Spellthief Levels (yadda yadda MT) + Sublime Chord + All Arcane Casting Classes (that are not spellthief)
and for Sublime Chord CL we get: Sublime Chord + Spellthief (Because of sublime chord) + Spellthief (master spellthief) (in both the MT should be equally applied)

and you get a separate thing: Spellthief Spelltheft level, which is equal to Spellthief + All Arcane Caster Classes (that are not spellthief)

By my understanding of how the prestige class works the levels are as such

SpTh CL: 9 + 10 + 10
SuCh CL: 10 + 9 + 9
Spelltheft: 2 + 10

...that is if one allows them to stack

[schreier]

I used this link to first do the calcs:
http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/45421/how-are-caster-levels-determined-in-concert-with-the-feat-master-spellthief

I think it makes sense that you need to apply each "advantage" sequentially, which is how I got to the 24/36 .... you can see in the link that he gets much higher (adding in the Knight of the Weave effectively doubles the caster level calculation) ... obviously this seems to be a confusing/semi-gray area - and considering that we are on d&d 5.0, it's never going to get better and it's up to each DM to decide what to do

In my proposed build, the caster is a weak cleric caster, an adequate spellthief, and a strong sublime chord - not overpowering, even with the "caster level looping" - if it works like I am calculating

This would be truly broken with some sorcerer spells (particularly Wings of Flurry - uncapped 1d6 force damage)

[Troacctid]

I used this link to first do the calcs:
http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/45421/how-are-caster-levels-determined-in-concert-with-the-feat-master-spellthief

I think it makes sense that you need to apply each "advantage" sequentially, which is how I got to the 24/36 .... you can see in the link that he gets much higher (adding in the Knight of the Weave effectively doubles the caster level calculation) ... obviously this seems to be a confusing/semi-gray area - and considering that we are on d&d 5.0, it's never going to get better and it's up to each DM to decide what to do

In my proposed build, the caster is a weak cleric caster, an adequate spellthief, and a strong sublime chord - not overpowering, even with the "caster level looping" - if it works like I am calculating

This would be truly broken with some sorcerer spells (particularly Wings of Flurry - uncapped 1d6 force damage)

The link you have there is wrong because it's adding up caster levels. These effects determine your caster level by adding your class levels together, not your caster levels in those classes.

[schreier]

Sublime chord says class level ... which is how I got the level 12 calculation

But master Spellthief specifies spellcaster level, not class level

Edit: just realized the confusion ... text of master Spellthief:

Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief.
Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells.


In the top section it says levels of arcane spellcaster classes for spelltheft calculation, but says arcane spellcaster levels for casting spells. Poorly phrased... the "also" seems to agree with your reading though

[Troacctid]

"Arcane spellcaster level" is not the same as "caster level". It is referring to your level in an arcane spellcasting class. In context, it doesn't make sense any other way.

[schreier]

(see above ... I agree, the word also lends weight to your interpretation. That's what I get for relying on the internet ;))