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View Full Version : Permanency: is it worth it?



RedScholarGypsy
2007-06-29, 11:14 AM
I've been wondering this for a while, and figured I'd bounce the question in here. I'm asking if its worth the XP versus just keeping it in the spell slot or just having a few scrolls handy.

Tyger
2007-06-29, 11:19 AM
I think it depends on the individual, the circumstances and the game. For me, in the game we are in, yes. I am Permanencying (is that a word?) Detect Magic as soon as I can. I never have enough of these spells, and cast it so often that its painful. Once that's out of the way, there are hundreds of uses for permanent Shrink Items, and permanent Tongues means never having to worry about another language again.

XP sink? You bet. But I think its worth it.

FirstAdam
2007-06-29, 11:20 AM
I feel like in general it depends on the character and the spell to be made permanent. It isn't just saving a spell slot, it's also saving the action that casting the spell would have taken. Upon walking up to a door, any door, most mages wouldn't think of using up a spell slot for detect magic (or the more relevant and higher level spell, arcane sight). But if it's permanent, that magical trap just glows, no action needed. And sure, there's that spell that masks a magical effect's magical aura, but then again, thats another level of complexity for the trap. Then there is the whole added option at the end of the description of permanency, where it tells you that other spells may be made permanent as well. This would require working it out with your DM, but there are some pretty nice options out there for that.

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-29, 11:27 AM
It's just XP. Go blast more monsters later. :smalltongue:

Yeah, it depends on the situation and circumstances. I personally like permanent telepathic bonds for the whole party, but that gets expensive.

Soepvork
2007-06-29, 11:32 AM
I never know whether Permanency is worth it. Sure, it's nice as long as it last, but it's just wasted when you come upon another mage (if he's hostile, he's likely to be a higher level than you were when you cast it.)

Keld Denar
2007-06-29, 11:35 AM
Perm's real weakness is dispel magic though. If your party likes to buff, then your DM may in turn be keen on tossing up targeted dispels. If the dispel lands on one of your permed spells, then you've just lost that spell, and the xp you've spent on it.

That's the caveat, if you think it's worth the risk, its just xp, you are probably spending 5x that much in crafting, why not spend some here too? Most perm spells are less than 1k xp anyway.

Jasdoif
2007-06-29, 11:45 AM
Spells on you made permanent through permanency can't be dispelled, short of disjunction, as long as you're the one casting permanency.


Spells cast on other creatures, objects, or locations (not on you) are vulnerable to dispel magic as normal.

This makes permanency great for such spells, since permanent spells doesn't take up a body slot the way most magic items do.

Fixer
2007-06-29, 11:58 AM
Spells on you made permanent through permanency can't be dispelled, short of disjunction, as long as you're the one casting permanency.



This makes permanency great for such spells, since permanent spells doesn't take up a body slot the way most magic items do.

Incorrect, because the Permanency spell itself would be what is being targetted. It simply is carrying the other spell.

DURATION
A spell's Duration entry tells you how long the magical energy of the spell lasts.
...
Permanent: The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic.

Also, this quote about permanenting spells on yourself:

This application of permanency can be dispelled only by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell.

Keld Denar
2007-06-29, 12:12 PM
So, does that mean permed spells are 2x as vulnerable to dispel? A targeted dispel goes down your list of buffs and checks each one. So it would check the perm, and then the detect magic, and if it gets either one, you'd be SoL? That's kind of nasty, in a fun and good kind of way. Mwa ha ha ha ha!!!!

Fixer
2007-06-29, 12:14 PM
So, does that mean permed spells are 2x as vulnerable to dispel? A targeted dispel goes down your list of buffs and checks each one. So it would check the perm, and then the detect magic, and if it gets either one, you'd be SoL? That's kind of nasty, in a fun and good kind of way. Mwa ha ha ha ha!!!!

No, the permanency is what holds the magic together and would need to be dispelled by itself. Also, it can only be dispelled by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the permanency.

Jasdoif
2007-06-29, 12:24 PM
Incorrect, because the Permanency spell itself would be what is being targetted. It simply is carrying the other spell.Huh. So it is.

Well that makes it notably sillier for self-buffs, what with a targeted dispel on you (or an area dispel) being able to wipe it out unless you redo the spell & permanency (and pay the XP) every level or so and never encounter an opponent with a higher caster level then your own. I'd rather pay for a magic item once and only have to worry about it being inactive for a few rounds, and only when the item itself is the dispel's target.

Fixer
2007-06-29, 12:58 PM
Actually, as a wizard I'd just cast them and then forget them until something dispelled them. Only about half of those things you would permanent on a person really matter during a fight and often you can cast a workaround during a combat. Just refresh the permanencies later.

Jasdoif
2007-06-29, 01:13 PM
Actually, as a wizard I'd just cast them and then forget them until something dispelled them. Only about half of those things you would permanent on a person really matter during a fight and often you can cast a workaround during a combat. Just refresh the permanencies later.Perhaps I'm just some sort of an XP miser, but needing to refresh them at all over something as common as a single dispel check really bothers me, if there's a more stable alternative to be had.

Forks
2007-06-29, 02:12 PM
For some builds it is VERY useful. For example, a tripper build with permanent Enlarge = yay.

Renx
2007-06-29, 02:20 PM
A permanent identify item would rule.

Yechezkiel
2007-06-29, 02:29 PM
A permanent identify item would rule.

That doesn't work like you think it does.

lukelightning
2007-06-29, 02:41 PM
That doesn't work like you think it does.

It's useful if you keep forgetting what magic items you have (yeah, righ!), e.g. it's 10 years later, and you still know the ring is a +1 ring of protection.

spotmarkedx
2007-06-29, 03:19 PM
If you have permanancy, ring of counterspells (with dispel magic) becomes your friend. Can't do anything about disjunction, but magic items are prey to that as well, so its not too much of a larger loss anyway.

LotharBot
2007-06-29, 05:13 PM
Personally, I houserule that dispelling a permenancied spell only supresses it, so it's gone for the fight but comes back later. (I do allow area permanency spells to be truly dispelled if the permanency effect is specifically targeted.) I'm also not the sort to use lots of rust monsters, disenchanters, rhemoraz, or other types that destroy things the party has invested in. (Please note that I explicitly stated this as a houserule; I know it's not RAW, I just like it better.)

As for whether it's worth it: depends on a few things.

1) Is it an in-combat or out-of-combat type effect? You don't want your caster to use the first round of every combat casting Enlarge Person when they could be casting Kill All the Bad Guys. But you might not care about using a zero-level "detect magic" spell and maintaining concentration between combats, so it might not be worth making permanent.
2) Can you get permanency scrolls at ye olde magic shoppe, or do you actually have to spend the XP in your game? If you have to spend the XP, is the DM willing to take it from the party XP pool or does it come from you personally? If you personally have to spend the XP, it may cost you a level; consider if the particular spell is worth it. (Most often, you'll want to cast it when you would've just reached an even caster level -- you end up one level behind, but don't lose access to a new spell level, and you'll earn XP a little bit faster than everyone else and eventually catch up.)
3) How does your DM handle dispelling permanent effects? If you have the sort of DM who will have enemy clerics dispel something you spent XP on every single fight, it's probably not worth using. If your DM treats it the way I do -- where you don't risk losing the buff without something extreme happening like a Disjunction -- it's a lot safer.

Curmudgeon
2007-06-30, 05:09 AM
The answer depends on the spell and the circumstances. You can make life a bit easier by casting Permanency at 20th level or higher. (If you're not yet 20th level you can hire an NPC for the casting, or buy a scroll at that level if you need to cast Permanency yourself; it's a good investment.) 20th level makes it impervious to Dispel Magic so now you only need to worry about Greater Dispel Magic.

An unarmed fighter is probably going to spend a lot less getting Greater Magic Fang + Permanency cast (repeatedly, if needed) than on an Amulet of Mighty Fists. I also use Permanency frequently for characters who cast spells via Use Magic Device. See Invisibility + Permanency is cheaper and probably more effective than a Gem of Seeing since the item only functions for 30 minutes a day.

Sometimes it doesn't make sense. I'd rather use Goggles of Night than Darkvision + Permanency. The cost of a custom Permanency scroll at 20th level for Darkvision is 7,500 gp, which is more than half the 12,000 gp cost of the Goggles.

Armads
2007-06-30, 06:27 AM
Permanency is worth it if you can get a 31st level caster around. It's dirt cheap to permanency Greater Magic Fang (CL 31st) and it cannot be dispelled, except by disjunction.

Oh, and is it possible to have someone Ego Whip you to 0 cha, and since you're an object now, get someone to permanency Invisibility on you, and then when you recover from the ability damage, to take random feats like Vow of Peace, Vow of Nonviolence, and go Combat Trapsmith to debuff people madly (Sleeper or Spiderweb come to mind).

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-30, 08:00 AM
Permanency doesn't need to cast you XP. Just hire an NPC to cast the spell for you.

Tobrian
2007-06-30, 08:29 AM
Permanency doesn't need to cast you XP. Just hire an NPC to cast the spell for you.

But an NPC spellcaster using Permanency on you cannot anchor the same spells on you as you would be able to anchor on yourself, i.e. Arcane Sight, Tongues or See Invisibility. If you want those, you have to do it yourself.


This spell makes certain other spells permanent.

Depending on the spell, you must be of a minimum caster level and must expend a number of XP.

You can make the following spells permanent in regard to yourself.

Spell - Minimum Caster Level - XP Cost
Arcane sight - 11th - 1,500 XP
Comprehend languages - 9th - 500 XP
Darkvision - 10th - 1,000 XP
Detect magic - 9th - 500 XP
Read magic - 9th - 500 XP
See invisibility - 10th - 1,000 XP
Tongues - 11th - 1,500 XP

You cast the desired spell and then follow it with the permanency spell. You cannot cast these spells on other creatures. This application of permanency can be dispelled only by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell.

In addition to personal use, permanency can be used to make the following spells permanent on yourself, another creature, or an object (as appropriate).

Spell - Minimum Caster Level - XP Cost
Enlarge person - 9th - 500 XP
Magic fang - 9th - 500 XP
Magic fang, greater - 11th - 1,500 XP
Reduce person - 9th - 500 XP
Resistance - 9th - 500 XP
Telepathic bond - 13th - 2,500 XP

Jasdoif
2007-06-30, 11:58 AM
Oh, and is it possible to have someone Ego Whip you to 0 cha, and since you're an object now, get someone to permanency Invisibility on you, and then when you recover from the ability damage, to take random feats like Vow of Peace, Vow of Nonviolence, and go Combat Trapsmith to debuff people madly (Sleeper or Spiderweb come to mind).No, because you're not an object in this situation. Having a Charisma score of 0 is not the same thing as having no Charisma score.

Jack_Simth
2007-06-30, 01:41 PM
Permanency doesn't need to cast you XP. Just hire an NPC to cast the spell for you.

There's a catch...


2 See spell description for additional costs. If the additional costs put the spell’s total cost above 3,000 gp, that spell is not generally available.(Emphasis added)

To Permanancy Enlarge Person, you need a 9th level caster to cast a 5th level spell with a 500 xp component - so 50*9+5*500=2,950 gp - generally available, if only just (ignoring the cost of the Enlarge Person itself). At caster level 10, it's 3,000 gp exactly - the exact Generally Available limit. Caster level 11 puts you 50 gp over the generally available limit. To have another caster Permanency Greater Magic Fang, it costs 50*11+5*1500=8,050 (ignoring the cost of the Greater Magic Fang itself)- which is above the 3,000 gp "generally available" limit.

In other words, that only works for a couple of spells, and even those are required to be on the list of ones you can make permanent on yourself or an object.

But an NPC spellcaster using Permanency on you cannot anchor the same spells on you as you would be able to anchor on yourself, i.e. Arcane Sight, Tongues or See Invisibility. If you want those, you have to do it yourself.

You can arrange it, you just need extra equipment: Rings of Spell Storing. Technically, when casting out of a Ring, you're treated as the caster, so you're technically casting it yourself. Use Magic Device can also do the job out of scrolls/wands (neither of which cost the user XP, just the creator).

Inyssius Tor
2007-06-30, 01:46 PM
No, because you're not an object in this situation. Having a Charisma score of 0 is not the same thing as having no Charisma score.

To further clarify:

Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.

Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature.

RedScholarGypsy
2007-06-30, 10:13 PM
Thanks for all the input. It definitly go me thinking, at which point I asked myself if all of non-object ones couldn't be done cheaper via scrolls or wonderous items, a feat that every mage should get (Sorc's probably shouldn't learn Perm) Also, since the WI can be used by anyone, the cost is worth it so the effects can be shared.

Detect magic; Read magic; Comprehend languages: Mainly out of combat casting, costs 0-1 xp per scroll. Detect magic can be scribed with Silent Spell and still only be 1xp, blessing for rogues =P. Also, there's http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#helmofComprehendLanguagesandRead Magic for 208xp. Not worth it for any of these.

Magic fang; Magic fang, greater: The druid can make an http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofMightyFists for the enhancement bonus. Why should you spend your xp for a druid's benefit? (Rangers, just turn right around =P)

Arcane sight: See Detect Magic.

Darkvision: craft goggles of night, costs you 480 xp: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#gogglesofNight

Tongues: try this for only 1080 xp. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#helmofTelepathy

Enlarge person; Reduce person: why make these permanent? Either it's against an enemy, so kill it, or it's a friend...again, why? Better ways to mess around with stats permanently, and being dispelled could be fatal. Still, no WI with this that I saw, and scroll doesn't seem practical, so to each their own.

Telepathic bond: Helm of telepathy could be a very weak version of this, but if you want to fork over the xp, this is the 'cheapest' way to get the effect perm.

See invisibility: You could use dust of appearance for 72xp a shot, but this may be worth it combined with the dust. The gem of seeing later on is a nice sub, though expensive. It's a 2-lvl slot, so just keep one memorized.

Resistance: Only source of an unconditional resistance bonus and unpermed lasts 1-minute. This may be the only one I think is worth getting, cheap for 500xp. Also, any wizard that wastes his/her round dispelling it, I'll take my round save-or-die-ing the jerk, and use the xp killing the jerk to recast it.

As for the object ones, they seem situational and therefore I don't think they can be argued, but please prove me wrong :smallsmile:

Jack_Simth
2007-06-30, 11:35 PM
There is a slight advantage of a Permanencied spell over the core Wondrous Items:

They're slotless. Additionally, they cost no GP (but they cost more XP to make up for it).

Helm of Telepathy over a Permanent Telepathic Bond? Sorry, "One headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery on the head" - no Headband of Intellect for your Wizard. Ditto for the Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic.

Amulet of Mighty Fists? Yeah, the Monk in the party will love it... until he realizes it conflicts with a Peripat of Wisdom - or an Amulet of Health.

Granted, there's not many better uses for the Goggles slot than getting Darkvision, but Goggles of Minute Seeing, Eyes of the Eagle, and (my favorite) Eyes of Charming are very handy as well.

You can keep a See Invisibility spell memorized... but then you're still expending an action on it - and actions are very valuable in combat. Plus there's the issue of invisible things when you're not expecting them - a Wall of Force, for instance, or the Rogue with a ring that stalks one subject to eventually find another.

Resistance:
Well, yeah, the +1 Resistance bonus costs you 500 xp if Permanencied... but you can get a Cloak of Resistance +1 for 500 gp and 40 xp. Of course, that doesn't work too hot for a Sorcerer....

Oh, and a Sorcerer doesn't get Permanency. The Sorcerer duplicates it later via Limited Wish.

Dhavaer
2007-06-30, 11:41 PM
Ditto for the Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic

As an aside, who named this magic item? Why not just call it the Linguist's Helm, or something like that.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-01, 12:34 AM
Permenancy Enlarge Person on your main tank. Make sure it was cast by the highest level caster you can bribe to do it. See if Elemenster just happens to be free for a sec...

Jack_Simth
2007-07-01, 12:54 AM
Heh.

Yeah, the extra reach on the party take is very handy, and saves a 1-round casting time in battle.

But there's serious problems if it's ever dispelled (even with a high caster level, this can be done, as Reduce Person counters and dispels Enlarge Person). For that matter, there's some serious problems even if it's never dispelled.

While equipment is similarly Enlarged, anything that leaves the tank's person reverts to its original size. The next day, the tank can't get that +3 Full Plate back on (it's too small). Okay, so you sell the full plate, and use the funds to Craft another +3 Full Plate, this time Size Large. And for the Animated Shield, and for the tank's Primary Weapons. You've either spent time and XP crafting the new items (in addition to a little extra gp), or a lot of extra cash getting someone else to do it. Then you run into a dungeon/house/castle/whatever with a medium entrance, and the Tank has issues.

Despite the savings on the casting time, Enlarge Person isn't going to be one you'll normally want to Permanency.

Now, Reduce Person, on the other hand, is great for a Medium caster - trade 2 strength and some XP for 2 dex, +1 AC, +1 Attack.

Curmudgeon
2007-07-01, 01:24 AM
Magic fang; Magic fang, greater: The druid can make an http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofMightyFists for the enhancement bonus. Why should you spend your xp for a druid's benefit? Have you checked the price for this item? The spells are much more cost-effective.

Joltz
2007-07-01, 01:35 AM
The slotlessness alone makes it worth it imo. On top of that, you don't have to use actions in combat to cast it. I also find it easier to steal something and then sell that to buy a scroll of permanency than spend exp, but then again I never play a caster so my only option is to UMD on a scroll. Even if it was my own exp I'd eventually make it up by ending up a level behind the party then getting better exp for an adventure.

Koji
2007-07-01, 04:39 AM
Like everything else in D&D, it depends on your DM.

RedScholarGypsy
2007-07-01, 09:05 AM
The reason I suggested the items is that all of those sans the amulet were non-combat related abilities. Just take the turn or two to swap items from your bag of holding, use it, then swap back. And yes, I realize the ammy of m fist isn't worth the slot, I was just saying if the druid wanted it permmed it could be done by the druid via the ammy. Forgot about monks maybe needing it, because, well, I think I'd prefer playing a mystic theurge to a monk :smalltongue:. I can't believe I missed Cloak of Resistance though. Oh well.

Jack_Simth
2007-07-01, 10:19 AM
The reason I suggested the items is that all of those sans the amulet were non-combat related abilities. Just take the turn or two to swap items from your bag of holding, use it, then swap back.
Umm... See Invisibility? You'll normally want to put it up once some invisible thing starts tearing into your allies. Resistance? You want it up when combat starts, and you start making saves. Also useful for traps out of combat... but only the ones you weren't expecting, which defeats the purpose of casting it/swapping items. Arcane Sight can often replace See Invisibility (you can usually tell where something using invisibility to hide is located), and cut down on your need to search for magic traps (you can SEE them, or at least, where they're located, due to their magic - usually), illusions (they have an aura, usually), and the like. Most of these, while done out of combat, are not expected (some of them are in combat).

Tongues is useful both in combat and out - understand the orders the class-leveled Orc Sargent is shouting before his men can obey? Yes please; gives you a moment to react before the men can follow through. It also lets the diplomancer speak to anything intelligent (which is kinda useful, if cheesy).

As an added benefit, a Vow of Poverty Sorcerer can do this (no expensive material components, no magic items - all personal XP) with Limited Wish instead of Permanency.

Now, Comprehend Languages and Read Magic? Okay, that's pretty much exclusively out-of-combat use.

And yes, I realize the ammy of m fist isn't worth the slot, I was just saying if the druid wanted it permmed it could be done by the druid via the ammy. Forgot about monks maybe needing it, because, well, I think I'd prefer playing a mystic theurge to a monk :smalltongue:. I can't believe I missed Cloak of Resistance though. Oh well.

Well, you want your Animal Companion to have an Amulet of Natural Armor or an Amulet of Health, too....

Aquillion
2007-07-01, 01:44 PM
See if you can talk your DM into having Dispel Magic suppress permanencied spells, instead of dispelling them. That would make sense, given how you have to pay XP for them...

Then, if you actually get away with that, go ahead and make permanent Symbol spells on various objects. Or, better yet, a cloak or buckler with Symbol of Weakness and Symbol of Insanity permanencied on it (take the time to make your group exempt, and wear something else over it, something you can throw off as a free or move action.) Anyone who looks at you has to make a fort save or suck, and a will save or go insane.

...hmm. Dispel Magic says: "For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel." So does that mean that if you permanency something on a magic item, it won't be affected by area dispels?

Jack_Simth
2007-07-01, 01:49 PM
See if you can talk your DM into having Dispel Magic suppress permanencied spells, instead of dispelling them. That would make sense, given how you have to pay XP for them...

Then, if you actually get away with that, go ahead and make permanent Symbol spells on various objects. Or, better yet, a cloak or buckler with Symbol of Weakness and Symbol of Insanity permanencied on it (take the time to make your group exempt, and wear something else over it, something you can throw off as a free or move action.) Anyone who looks at you has to make a fort save or suck, and a will save or go insane.
Symbol of Persuasion. Don't bother making your group immune (but don't abuse the opposed Charisma check clause). View-activated. Fun thing: Once it's active, it affects everyone in range. Get two (one on Fighter, one on Cleric). Heighten them as much as is feasible.

Actually, though, you can set them for any timing. Attune to group, then set them for "As soon as ready". Get two on different timings. Everyone within range has to save (except your party).

calebcom
2007-07-01, 04:23 PM
Heh.

Yeah, the extra reach on the party take is very handy, and saves a 1-round casting time in battle.

But there's serious problems if it's ever dispelled (even with a high caster level, this can be done, as Reduce Person counters and dispels Enlarge Person). For that matter, there's some serious problems even if it's never dispelled.

While equipment is similarly Enlarged, anything that leaves the tank's person reverts to its original size. The next day, the tank can't get that +3 Full Plate back on (it's too small). Okay, so you sell the full plate, and use the funds to Craft another +3 Full Plate, this time Size Large. And for the Animated Shield, and for the tank's Primary Weapons. You've either spent time and XP crafting the new items (in addition to a little extra gp), or a lot of extra cash getting someone else to do it. Then you run into a dungeon/house/castle/whatever with a medium entrance, and the Tank has issues.

Despite the savings on the casting time, Enlarge Person isn't going to be one you'll normally want to Permanency.

Now, Reduce Person, on the other hand, is great for a Medium caster - trade 2 strength and some XP for 2 dex, +1 AC, +1 Attack.

Still worth it especially if your tank has improved trip. Every time someone provokes an Attack of Op, he trips. with reach, the number of attacks of OP are far more numerous.

This is one of the best strategies i've come across for a tank defending his party.

Droodle
2007-07-01, 05:16 PM
Still worth it especially if your tank has improved trip. Every time someone provokes an Attack of Op, he trips. with reach, the number of attacks of OP are far more numerous.Guisarmes have trip. And reach.

calebcom
2007-07-01, 06:30 PM
Guisarmes have trip. And reach.

and a deadzone against creatures within that reach.
Natural reach is far superior to 99% of reach weapons.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-01, 07:30 PM
Guisarmes have trip. And reach.

So do Spiked Chains, only without the dead zones.

Best of all... the reach stacks. So with a spiked chain, and large size, you can have a reach of 20'. Crack-tastic!

calebcom
2007-07-01, 07:33 PM
So do Spiked Chains, only without the dead zones.

Best of all... the reach stacks. So with a spiked chain, and large size, you can have a reach of 20'. Crack-tastic!

Yeap. Always nice to trip up everything within a 20 foot radius.

Emperor Tippy
2007-07-01, 07:40 PM
You can actually push reach up to something like 70 feet.

Matthew
2007-07-03, 04:28 PM
As an aside, who named this magic item? Why not just call it the Linguist's Helm, or something like that.
Heh, there is a Spell by that name in (A)D&D. No doubt it's rooted in that.

Hectonkhyres
2007-07-03, 11:13 PM
So do Spiked Chains, only without the dead zones.

Best of all... the reach stacks. So with a spiked chain, and large size, you can have a reach of 20'. Crack-tastic!

You could probably screw with the rules even more if it is an embiggened half-giant wielding that monstrosity. At least if it is a custom-forged chain and the DM is smiling on you that day.

Toliudar
2007-07-04, 12:45 AM
I guess enlarging the tank permanently is great...except that suddenly it's much more difficult to come by gear for him/her.

I like the personal spell permanencies because it's great to be able to just USE it like a spell-like ability, without telegraphing to everyone in the room that "oh, the wizard is casting a spell again."

Shadowdweller
2007-07-04, 05:38 AM
I don't care for the the spell myself. Coupled with the possibility of dispelling, the xp costs are simply too big compared to crafting an item. (Or not worth the cost of the 10k gp scroll).


I guess enlarging the tank permanently is great...except that suddenly it's much more difficult to come by gear for him/her.

Who suddenly finds himself the equivalent of a naked, weaponless tank in the rare event of an anti-magic zone or antimagic field.