Illusionist vs Abjurer?

[Kellen Eliel]

First, let me say hi to the great community of this forum.

Second, moved by the great response to my friend Nheko, I will like to ask a recommendation on a wizard build for our upcoming Curse of Strahd Campaign.

I will play a gnome wizard but I'm thorn between the Abjurer or Illusionist schools, since I am not sure on how the illusions will affect the undead. Are they immune to them?

[Democratus]

Illusions are very dependent on your DM.

Some DMs make them nearly powerless while others allow them to be amazing. You should have a chat with the DM and see what place illusions will have in this campaign.

Good luck!

[JackPhoenix]

No, illusion works on undead just like on anyone else, possibly even better thanks to low intelligence of zombies and skeletons.

Though how useful the illusions are in general is very GM-dependant. Some GMs are very antagonistic in ruling how enemies react to illusions.

[Socratov]

Illusions are very dependent on your DM.

Some DMs make them nearly powerless while others allow them to be amazing. You should have a chat with the DM and see what place illusions will have in this campaign.

Good luck!

This cannot be stressed enough. Else until lvl 14 you will wish you never picked illusionist (lvl 14 is where your illusions become realer then real).

[ad_hoc]

Abjurer and Illusionist are very different playstyles.

Being an Illusionist takes a lot of initiative and creativity. It requires you to be engaged with the environment and thinking on your toes.

They are also geared to the exploration and social interaction pillars rather than combat.

I haven't finished reading CoS but it seems to have a lot of investigation and exploration in it.

I would say either an Illusionist or an Abjurer would have a good time, just be aware that as an Illusionist your focus is not on combat.

[Tarvil]

I'd go with Abjurer, this archetype will make you much harder to kill, and will grant you nice counters vs enemy casters. Illusionist is playable, but noticeably weaker than Diviner or Abjurer until level 14, and then it becomes so powerful that DM will nerf you to the ground, or you'll destroy every encounter alone.

[Easy_Lee]

It's a feels vs reals argument.

Some DMs feels that illusory effects aren't as powerful as reals, so they ignore the feels of their creatures and metagame. "Obviously, everyone in the world of d&d knows illusions are a thing, so they would know not only to check if that door is reals, but would make multiple attempts until they pass the save, doing nothing else. And, naturally, the illusion isn't reals, so people will feels something is wrong when they look at it, and get a perception check to notice something is off. By the way, every one of these twenty gnolls gets a saving throw to detect your feels hiding place as they go by. You better hope for twenty failures." Some DMs hate your feels so much that mobs simply ignore them.

Other DMs are fine with feels. They'll make seeing through feels an active thing, as appropriate, so a group of mobs don't all automatically get individual checks to help each other resist your feels. And, of course, once your feels become reals at 14, only the worst, most fun-hating DMs will find ways to take issue.

RAW, feels are quite powerful. Ask your DM if he prefers feels or reals.

[Kellen Eliel]

Based on your comments I'll txt the DM and see what's his take on illusions, all I want is to us have fun and enjoy the ride.

I'll let you know.

Annnd thanks guys you're awesome for your advices. Hope to stay here for a while.

K.

[Socratov]

Based on your comments I'll txt the DM and see what's his take on illusions, all I want is to us have fun and enjoy the ride.

I'll let you know.

Annnd thanks guys you're awesome for your advices. Hope to stay here for a while.

K.

Please be welcome for the advice and stay for the discussions :)

[JumboWheat01]

It never hurts to draw up a character of both. If you don't use it now, you may use it in the future.

I don't know if you're focusing on existing worlds or your DM works his own, but thematically, Illusion is a very, very popular choice for Gnomes. As you'll note in the PHB, Forrest Gnomes even start with Minor Illusion for free.

I think Illusion relies most on the player's imagination being green-lit by the DM. If you've got a good imagination, Illusion is going to be one of your favorite schools.


If later you want to go with Abjuration, look at the Mountain Dwarf. One of Abjuration's draws is making your character more resilient, and with the way casting and armor works in 5th Edition, wading into battle wearing medium armor would make you even more resilient, since your AC would be quite good. Also, Abjuration makes you a great anti-mage mage. You could wade in as a dwarf with medium armor, a battle axe or warhammer and take it to the enemy mages while dispelling their protections, countering their spells, and separating their super intelligent head from their not so sturdy body.

[Segev]

Abjurer is more of a tank, though I think probably less fun. Of course, I may be a little biased. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477658-Illusionist-Tricks)

[TheFlyingCleric]

Abjurer is more of a tank, though I think probably less fun. Of course, I may be a little biased. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477658-Illusionist-Tricks)

Just maybe :smallsmile:

Whichever you pick, you're still a full caster with a huge range of spells and the best ritual casting. I lean to abjuration, because staying alive is never a bad thing.
Also the 10th and 14th level features. You are basically the antimage once you get those. Or you can do things like cast fireballs in melee combat and take very little damage

[TheTeaMustFlow]

For Curse of Strahd, I think I'd recommend Abjurer. The Illusionists high level features are very powerful (in fact, I'd go so far as to say that Illusory Reality might be the most powerful class feature in the game), but you won't get high enough level to use them in CoS.

[Dalebert]

I love the idea of illusions. They tend to be somewhat underpowered in this edition, perhaps because people tended to abuse them. For instance, bear in mind that Silent Image or Major Image don't move unless you're using your action to make it move. So illusions of things that one would expect to move even a little will be less believable. It's better for things like walls (preferably put there when enemies weren't watching) or to show someone sleeping where people would expect them to be so they're not suspicious that they're missing. It's less of a combat spell IMHO and more of a spell that can potentially be extremely useful in a certain context, BUT there are LOTS of contexts when it will be handy because it's so versatile. As a DM, I assume such illusions move minimally, just enough to be a bit more believable. For instance, a creature will blink. A snake will stick it's tongue out occasionally. I think to not even do that is a little silly, but that's essentially a house rule and not strict RAW.

Minor Illusion (the visual aspect) makes illusions of objects and they don't shed light. Thus you can't make an illusion of fog or of a kobold standing watch. A creature is not an object. You can make an illusion of a statue of a creature but it won't pass for the actual creature. I might make some exceptions, like maybe a deep gnome who can make themselves look like stone and hide while standing very still.

But those don't matter for picking your school. What you want to look at are the extra abilities. You can obviously cast illusions as an abjurer and abjuration as an illusionist. The 2nd level ability of an illusionist seems weak to me but the 14th level ability seems OBSCENE. How patient are you feeling?

[Segev]

For Curse of Strahd, I think I'd recommend Abjurer. The Illusionists high level features are very powerful (in fact, I'd go so far as to say that Illusory Reality might be the most powerful class feature in the game), but you won't get high enough level to use them in CoS.I would love examples of what you'd do with it; most of the best tricks I have come up with are actually based on Malleable Illusions. Illusory Reality just seems not that great. At least, not until you get to 18th level and can cast silent image at will.


For instance, bear in mind that Silent Image or Major Image don't move unless you're using your action to make it move. So illusions of things that one would expect to move even a little will be less believable.

There are two ways to run this that don't get into silly "they don't move except on your action, so they're not believable" territory. One, the more restrictive, is to assume that spending your action means they move "normally" for a critter of their sort until your next action. The other is to read the "spend your action" clause as being related to changing the location of the spell. As long as the creature, in that interpretation, stays in its AoE (and you're not moving said AoE), it moves independently in a "normal" fashion, sufficient to fool onlookers who don't Investigate.

So a silent image or major image of a goblin guard could pace back and forth, breathe, fiddle with his spear, and pick his nose without you having to do much. Whatever you subconsciously assume a goblin does when semi-idle is what it'd do. If you want to direct specific action, or have it actually run over to another area 30 feet away, you have to spend your action. But if you're not moving its AoE, it doesn't cost actions to have the illusion itself move. It is only having the AoE move that triggers it (and there's specific text that moving the AoE allows the "creature" to make the translation across space in a believable fashion).

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I would love examples of what you'd do with it; most of the best tricks I have come up with are actually based on Malleable Illusions. Illusory Reality just seems not that great. At least, not until you get to 18th level and can cast silent image at will.

Silent Image of an airtight very thick adamantine box surrounding an enemy (or enemies) is the obvious choice. Reliable no-save shutdown with a first level spell.

Otherwise, messing with the environment is your best bet - I once used IR combined with Major Image (I think) to sink a ship by creating a massive rock that caused it to capsize. One could also consider making a giant hole under an opponent (causing them to fall harmlessly) then ending concentration on the spell - voila, instant entombment.

[Easy_Lee]

Silent Image of an airtight very thick adamantine box surrounding an enemy (or enemies) is the obvious choice. Reliable no-save shutdown with a first level spell.

Otherwise, messing with the environment is your best bet - I once used IR combined with Major Image (I think) to sink a ship by creating a massive rock that caused it to capsize. One could also consider making a giant hole under an opponent (causing them to fall harmlessly) then ending concentration on the spell - voila, instant entombment.

This sort of thing is why a lot of DM's dislike illusions. My personal limitations:

Partially real illusions are breakable. It's not like an actual wall of adamantine or whatever. They're made out of magical material treated as wood for the purpose of damaging it.
You can't use illusions to remove things which are there, only to create things which aren't. No holes.
Seeing through a non-damaging illusion is an active check, not passive, but if someone else tells you it's not real then you get advantage.

Rules like this are, I believe, fair to both sides. I just wish WoTC had thought of some of this.

[Segev]

This sort of thing is why a lot of DM's dislike illusions. My personal limitations:

Partially real illusions are breakable. It's not like an actual wall of adamantine or whatever. They're made out of magical material treated as wood for the purpose of damaging it.
You can't use illusions to remove things which are there, only to create things which aren't. No holes.
Seeing through a non-damaging illusion is an active check, not passive, but if someone else tells you it's not real then you get advantage.

Rules like this are, I believe, fair to both sides. I just wish WoTC had thought of some of this.

He's speaking of a very specific thing, here. Illusory Reality isn't "partially real." It makes the illusory thing real. Period.

You're right on the second point, though; the only illusions that can create illusions of holes (at least, amongst those in the PHB) are hallucinatory terrain and mirage arcane. Both can turn a bramble-clogged path into a wide, open, smooth road. The former can only make it look (and sound and smell) that way; the brambles will still scratch you (invisibly). The latter can actually give the tactile "non-existence" of the brambles, letting you ignore them completely as you walk along the road.

[Easy_Lee]

He's speaking of a very specific thing, here. Illusory Reality isn't "partially real." It makes the illusory thing real. Period.

Right, and that's the part I house rule by specifying that it's made out of magical material, not the actual material. Else we run into the same kind of problem as conjurers creating bits of the sun and causing atomic-level explosions, etc. I'm speaking of my rules, not the RAW, since the RAW is pretty clear and the RAI pretty unclear.

[Kellen Eliel]

After discussing with my DM I will go with the gnome abjurer as he suggested it will be most benefit to the party and that the Campaign might end earlier than me achieving the full abilities of the Illusionist School. However he said that he will run another campaign after the end of CoS where I will enjoy the full benefits of a full-fledged illusionist. So my gnome illusionist will sit for this one but will next in line for action!

Thank you very much for your support and ideas. You guys rock!

[Dalebert]

You can't use illusions to remove things which are there, only to create things which aren't. No holes.

That's not a personal limitation. That's RAW, at least for most illusion spells. If they say they make an illusion of something, they can't make an illusion of nothing in place of something. Invisibility does that. Mirage Arcana appears to as was pointed out. Silent Image or Major Image cannot. You can certainly hide something with something bigger, like a cluster of boulders to hide your party. We've used that trick a number of times to evade enemies.

[Easy_Lee]

That's not a personal limitation. That's RAW, at least for most illusion spells. If they say they make an illusion of something, they can't make an illusion of nothing in place of something. Invisibility does that. Mirage Arcana appears to as was pointed out. Silent Image or Major Image cannot. You can certainly hide something with something bigger, like a cluster of boulders to hide your party. We've used that trick a number of times to evade enemies.

I agree this is the correct RAW reading. I just like to be clear.

[JumboWheat01]

Why couldn't you make the illusion of a hole? Have you seen some of those side-walk arts that look like they open into the abyss, but really, it's just a flat surface? Amazing pieces of optical illusions.

[Easy_Lee]

Why couldn't you make the illusion of a hole? Have you seen some of those side-walk arts that look like they open into the abyss, but really, it's just a flat surface? Amazing pieces of optical illusions.

I was specifically talking about holes made role via level 14.

[JumboWheat01]

Ah, yeah, that I have no problem with, that encroaches on Mold Earth and other spells of the sort. Plus Illusions seem to be more about the creation of things, rather than the removal of things.

[SharkForce]

Why couldn't you make the illusion of a hole? Have you seen some of those side-walk arts that look like they open into the abyss, but really, it's just a flat surface? Amazing pieces of optical illusions.

i would accept that you could make an optical illusion of a hole. but if someone looks at it, they'll see that it's an illusion of a drawing/painting/whatever of a hole, unless they're standing at the right spot to be fooled by the optical illusion (of course, if someone is running along, they might be fooled into stopping because they think it's a hole, but i'd allow a passive perception at a moderate difficulty to just tell them that the hole up ahead looks oddly flat and 2-dimensional even if they're moving fast (if they're taking their time, they'll figure it out pretty quickly. they may think it looks pretty neat, but they won't think it's a hole for more than a second or two).

[Nheko]

Knowing Kellen's penchant for mischief and entertainment he will be keeping the DM on its toes :wink: I'll be looking forward to both of your characters.

See you in the mists! :tongue: