Questions: Action Economy with Concentration & Magical Secret Selection

[Nelyo]

Bit of background – I’m doing a Half-Elf lore bard 19/Knowledge Cleric 1 (STR: 8, DEX: 14, CON: 13, INT: 13, WIS: 14, CHA 16). Party now consists of: Barbarian, Shadow Monk, Sorcerer (I’m assuming the blasty variety), and a Life Cleric. Came here a bit ago asking for build help, and we still, sadly, have not gotten the game off the ground. But we’re set for lift off this weekend *Crosses fingers*.

I believe I’ll be fitting the party face/debuffer/controller/skill monkey role. I know at least half of the existing languages, and will have all knowledge skills (and expertise in two of them). So, just needed some opinions on spell choice for magical secrets and advice on spellcasting action economy. I’ll start with the latter first.

Action Economy: Concentration being the limiting factor that it is now, I’m kind of confused as to how combat is supposed to go for me. The way I see it, you’ll start off casting some kind of concentration spell, (Like bless), and keep it up for 10 rounds. In the meantime you’re relegated to casting vicious mockery, unless you want to burn dissonant whispers or sleep or some such. In the case of sleep, I don’t see why you would bother casting bless, if you’re just going to nuke them all and have a coup de grace fiesta. Am I missing something here?

Most bard spells are concentration, and most of the better spells that are also poachable through magical secrets are also concentration. Which begs the question – how the heck do people run out of spells when you’re concentrating on a 10 round spell? I haven’t ever been in a combat that has lasted that long in DnD. Anyway, I digress.

Magical Secrets: I am planning ahead (Presumptuous of me, I know, the campaign probably won’t even last that long). I had mostly planned to take blasty spells, since our original sorcerer decided she didn’t have time for the game. But now, apparently she does, and wants to do the thing. So, assuming she stays true to her word...

18th Level Magical Secrets: Wish, Prismatic Wall (I had planned on meteor swarm originally)

14th Level Magical Secrets: (I found 6-7th level Spells relatively lacking, and I am very unenthusiastic about my choices. Does anyone else feel similarly?). Bigby’s Hand/Wall of Force, ??? (I was going to take sunbeam or disintegrate [Disintegrate + Hold Monster, so beautiful], but now that we have a sorcerer, I wonder if the magical secret would be better spent elsewhere.)

10th Level Magical Secrets: Wall of Force/Bigby's Hand, Banishment (Honorable Mention: Evard’s Tentacles)

6th Level Magical Secrets: Counterspell, ??? (I was going to take spirit guardians, or fireball, but now I’m at a loss. Maybe spiritual weapon or misty step? Or maybe I could still take those two choices. I don’t know.)

If you’re wondering why I went backwards – I found it simpler to choose higher level spells because the spell selection was more narrow :p.

Anyways, thanks in advance.

Nelyo

[Cybren]

Bit of background – I’m doing a Half-Elf lore bard 19/Knowledge Cleric 1 (STR: 8, DEX: 14, CON: 13, INT: 13, WIS: 14, CHA 16). Party now consists of: Barbarian, Shadow Monk, Sorcerer (I’m assuming the blasty variety), and a Life Cleric. Came here a bit ago asking for build help, and we still, sadly, have not gotten the game off the ground. But we’re set for lift off this weekend *Crosses fingers*.

I believe I’ll be fitting the party face/debuffer/controller/skill monkey role. I know at least half of the existing languages, and will have all knowledge skills (and expertise in two of them). So, just needed some opinions on spell choice for magical secrets and advice on spellcasting action economy. I’ll start with the latter first.

Action Economy: Concentration being the limiting factor that it is now, I’m kind of confused as to how combat is supposed to go for me. The way I see it, you’ll start off casting some kind of concentration spell, (Like bless), and keep it up for 10 rounds. In the meantime you’re relegated to casting vicious mockery, unless you want to burn dissonant whispers or sleep or some such. In the case of sleep, I don’t see why you would bother casting bless, if you’re just going to nuke them all and have a coup de grace fiesta. Am I missing something here?

Most bard spells are concentration, and most of the better spells that are also poachable through magical secrets are also concentration. Which begs the question – how the heck do people run out of spells when you’re concentrating on a 10 round spell? I haven’t ever been in a combat that has lasted that long in DnD. Anyway, I digress.

Magical Secrets: I am planning ahead (Presumptuous of me, I know, the campaign probably won’t even last that long). I had mostly planned to take blasty spells, since our original sorcerer decided she didn’t have time for the game. But now, apparently she does, and wants to do the thing. So, assuming she stays true to her word...

18th Level Magical Secrets: Wish, Prismatic Wall (I had planned on meteor swarm originally)

14th Level Magical Secrets: (I found 6-7th level Spells relatively lacking, and I am very unenthusiastic about my choices. Does anyone else feel similarly?). Bigby’s Hand/Wall of Force, ??? (I was going to take sunbeam or disintegrate [Disintegrate + Hold Monster, so beautiful], but now that we have a sorcerer, I wonder if the magical secret would be better spent elsewhere.)

10th Level Magical Secrets: Wall of Force/Bigby's Hand, Banishment (Honorable Mention: Evard’s Tentacles)

6th Level Magical Secrets: Counterspell, ??? (I was going to take spirit guardians, or fireball, but now I’m at a loss. Maybe spiritual weapon or misty step? Or maybe I could still take those two choices. I don’t know.)

If you’re wondering why I went backwards – I found it simpler to choose higher level spells because the spell selection was more narrow :p.

Anyways, thanks in advance.

Nelyo

I do the same thing when creating spellcasters that start at a high level- what high level spells do i want, and are there any that i can get almost as much utility out of a lower level slot?

I'm playing a half-elf valor bard, and while I'm only at 5th level, i'm looking at some spells for my magical secrets: Either Prayer of Healing or Aura of Vitality & probably destructive wave for 10th level, Shillelagh and Booming Blade at 14th level, and i have no gosh darn idea for 18th level, but now i kind of like wish and prismatic wall

[Dalebert]

Counterspell is a no-brainer. Bards are almost the best counterspellers because we can add jack of all trades to the roll. Stopping an enemy's harmful spell with a reaction is almost always a good idea.

After that I took Spiritual Guardians, but that's because we're in Curse of Strahd and it's a great way to regularly dish out radiant damage to undead without harming allies. That has countless uses. After we escape Barovia, I'll likely switch it out for Conjure Animals. Summoning 8 wolves is pretty broken, or 8 giant owls all with flyby in certain circumstances when wolves don't work out. Giant owls can even grab some characters and fly with them though maybe just small-sized. You'd have to do a little math.

[Demonic Spoon]

Action Economy: Concentration being the limiting factor that it is now, I’m kind of confused as to how combat is supposed to go for me. The way I see it, you’ll start off casting some kind of concentration spell, (Like bless), and keep it up for 10 rounds. In the meantime you’re relegated to casting vicious mockery, unless you want to burn dissonant whispers or sleep or some such. In the case of sleep, I don’t see why you would bother casting bless, if you’re just going to nuke them all and have a coup de grace fiesta. Am I missing something here?

Most bard spells are concentration, and most of the better spells that are also poachable through magical secrets are also concentration. Which begs the question – how the heck do people run out of spells when you’re concentrating on a 10 round spell? I haven’t ever been in a combat that has lasted that long in DnD. Anyway, I digress.

Just because you start off with a concentration spell doesn't mean

-You're going to keep your concentration for that long
-You're going to want to keep concentrating on the same spell for 10 rounds instead of casting something new as the situation changes
-The concentration spell is going to be applicable for 10 rounds (e.g. hold person -> Target dies -> cast new concentration spell).


As far as spell selection goes, you do want to be careful not to take a bunch of concentration spells that do the same thing. However, multiple concentration spells that do different things is going to be pretty valuable, and having some useful non-concentration-spells like disintegrate or spiritual weapon wouldn't be a bad idea, either.

[brainface]

Bard itself has good blasty spells that deal sonic damage--you could also consider ones that deal an element type the sorcerer doesn't. The bard in our current campaign just casts geas/curse/polymorph--these sound more viscerally rewarding than bless to me.

For 6th/7th level secrets, there's heal/harm, the investitures from elemental evil, planar ally, wind walk, divine word, plane shift, prismatic spray, finger of death --it really seems like there's some nice choices there to me. I mean, you'll have plenty of damage/cc options by then, you can pick something based on it looking cool by this level. ^^

[Biggstick]

You can always use the Magical Secrets to take the Eldritch Blast cantrip. It might not be as good without the Agonizing Blast invocation, but it will still provide you ok damage per round.

[Giant2005]

Action Economy: Concentration being the limiting factor that it is now, I’m kind of confused as to how combat is supposed to go for me. The way I see it, you’ll start off casting some kind of concentration spell, (Like bless), and keep it up for 10 rounds. In the meantime you’re relegated to casting vicious mockery, unless you want to burn dissonant whispers or sleep or some such. In the case of sleep, I don’t see why you would bother casting bless, if you’re just going to nuke them all and have a coup de grace fiesta. Am I missing something here?

You are missing Blindness/Deafness and Bestow Curse - two great spells on the Bard's natural list that can be cast without Concentration.

[R.Shackleford]

I like Sanctuary on a bard.

Nothing says "hahahaha" like walking around using the help action untouched while using Bardic inspiration/cutting words.

[BiPolar]

After that I took Spiritual Guardians, but that's because we're in Curse of Strahd and it's a great way to regularly dish out radiant damage to undead without harming allies. That has countless uses. After we escape Barovia, I'll likely switch it out for Conjure Animals. Summoning 8 wolves is pretty broken, or 8 giant owls all with flyby in certain circumstances when wolves don't work out. Giant owls can even grab some characters and fly with them though maybe just small-sized. You'd have to do a little math.

FYI, you can't swap out magical secrets for other magical secrets. You can remove a magical secret for another bard spell, but then you've really shot yourself in the foot for the power of that magical secret.

[Dalebert]

Most bard spells are concentration, and most of the better spells that are also poachable through magical secrets are also concentration. Which begs the question – how the heck do people run out of spells when you’re concentrating on a 10 round spell? I haven’t ever been in a combat that has lasted that long in DnD. Anyway, I digress.

Lots of spells fail right away due to saves. Some get counterspelled. Some you lose because your concentration was interrupted. Bards do also have plenty of spells to cast that aren't concentration as you pointed out like Counterspell or Dissonant Whispers or else they can gain them through Magical Secrets.

Honestly though, I find it's a fairly rare occurrence that anyone runs out of spells once you get to about 5th level or higher. You might run out of the higher level and more powerful slots but I find most casters have enough 3rd and lower spells to easily stay at a high rate of effectiveness though most games. It seems more likely that they'll have limited actions with which to cast spells effectively. As you said, most concentration spells you want to get off early in the combat (most just 3 rounds or so) to gain the most benefit from them. I rarely seem to have enough actions to use up my spell slots. Action economy is huge as you mentioned in the thread title.

[Specter]

Magical Secrets depends on what you want it to do. Here's what I find best:

Area damage? Fireball.
Melee damage? Blinding Smite/Crusader's Mantle.
Ranged damage? Lightning Arrow.
Buffing? Haste.
Defense? Mirror Image.
Debuffing? Slow.
Evil minions? Animate Dead.
Stealth? Pass Without Trace.
Mobility? Misty Step.
Shelter? Rope Trick.

Avoid things that use your reaction, because you're already heavy with Cutting Words and Counterspell.

[bid]

Which begs the question – how the heck do people run out of spells when you’re concentrating on a 10 round spell?
By casting fireballs every round?

The concentration mechanic is just there to limit you to a single ongoing buff. It doesn't stop you from casting other spells.

[R.Shackleford]

By casting fireballs every round?

The concentration mechanic is just there to limit you to a single ongoing buff. It doesn't stop you from casting other spells.

Well... Some builds laugh at that. The Cleric can do some pretty good buffing without concentration.

Spiritual Weapon, Sanctuary (just remembered this is NOT concentration ), Warding Bond, Nondetection, Hallow... A few other too those were just the first ones I could think of.

Concentration is a good mechanic, I wish it was better implemented tho.

[bid]

Well... Some builds laugh at that. The Cleric can do some pretty good buffing without concentration.
Yeah, it's excessively easy to run out of spell (slots).

[R.Shackleford]

Yeah, it's excessively easy to run out of spell (slots).

Not really.

By low mid levels to high levels you have so many spells slots, for what the game throws at you, that it's kinda a joke.

Plus so many times I see casters holding back spells until something bad happens or they meet the boss. They just deal melee damage, cantrip damage, ranged weapon damage, or use the help action.

Many casters can do this, even in a party full of casters, however the best at this is the Cleric due to their high AC and good weapon choices. They also get some decent short rest features.

Having too few spell slots is never really an issue in 5e unless you make it an issue on purpose. Past level 3 or 4 at least.

This is why I laugh when People use "per long rest spell slots" as a means of saying the game is balanced.

You don't have to unload all those buffs at once, but if you wanted to you could go into the boss battle as a pretty nifty character.

[bid]

Not really.
I'm answering Nelyo.

Concentrating on a 10-round spell doesn't stop you from casting another spell every round. There's more than 22 rounds of (possible) casting in a day.

[TheFlyingCleric]

Yeah, it's excessively easy to run out of spell (slots).

Seconded

Clerics can't get spells back except by long resting, unlike some other full-casting classes (wizards get arcane recovery, land druids get a similar ability, and sorcerers can use their sorcery points). This means they can be a bit short of spell slots, especially at levels 1 & 2. This is also why Life cleric and prayer of healing is good; they improve the efficiency of your spellcasting, leaving you with more band-aids spell slots remaining.

But they get to wear armor and be bad-ass, so it's worth it.


Bards also can't get back slots without resting. Although they aren't viewed like a box of band-aids the way clerics are, they do need to use their spells for blasting a lot more. So spell efficiency is quite important when selecting your spells

[RickAllison]

Seconded

Clerics can't get spells back except by long resting, unlike some other full-casting classes (wizards get arcane recovery, land druids get a similar ability, and sorcerers can use their sorcery points). This means they can be a bit short of spell slots, especially at levels 1 & 2. This is also why Life cleric and prayer of healing is good; they improve the efficiency of your spellcasting, leaving you with more band-aids spell slots remaining.

But they get to wear armor and be bad-ass, so it's worth it.


Bards also can't get back slots without resting. Although they aren't viewed like a box of band-aids the way clerics are, they do need to use their spells for blasting a lot more. So spell efficiency is quite important when selecting your spells

Thirded. My UA Artificer seems to spend the majority of his spell slots on healing or otherwise protecting the party rather than for exploration or blasting. I think the only offensive non-cantrip he has used was a Hold Person.

[Dalebert]

If clerics are running out of spells on healing, it's usually because they're not casting smartly. They're probably healing people who haven't dropped to 0 yet. That's usually, not always of course, but usually wasteful. Oddly enough, the times they do it the most are when it's the most wasteful--"Holy crap! That things hitting for 30 points a strike! I better start piling HP onto the tank!" Uh... no. That's actually one of the the worst times to heal before they hit 0. If you're worried it's an enemy that will hit an ally again while they're already down, hold your action to heal right after they drop to 0.

[Nelyo]

Yay, I'm happy at the overwhelming amount of responses. Sorry I, myself, hadn't responded sooner, life got kinda hectic. Anywho!

I can see how I was a bit narrow-minded in my approach to concentration spells. I am of the mind-set that if I'm going to cast a spell, I'm going to milk it for all its worth. However, as you've already pointed out, there are several circumstances where it might be prudent to cast another, your opponent saves, or you simply lose your concentration. I got a bit of tunnel vision there in my zeal to be efficient. Makes sense.

As to spell choice, my third level slot may have been decided for me. The person playing the life cleric will not be joining us, so I'll likely be picking up the slack with aura of vitality when I hit 6th. Unless of course one of us decides to get that feat that makes healing kits more effective between rests. I wanted to take inspiring leader, but I'm thinking I'll gimp myself early if I don't take that +2 to CHA, since DCs are important to bard spells. I'm already pushing Resilient (Con) back to 8th level, and that is no-bueno for my ability to not get disrupted.

Actually - come to think of it - would it be better to take resilient con earlier, and push back the CHA increase?

Also, brainface mentioned good sonic spells. How do you figure? I found them relatively lackluster when compared to say... fireball. The only advantage is that sonic is a rarely resisted energy type.

Shatter: 10-ft radius, range of 60 ft, 4d8 damage up-cast to 3rd level slot, and it has a con save.

Fireball: 20-ft radius, range of 150 feet, 8d6 damage as 3rd level slot, and dex save.

I feel as though the 3.5 version got you more mileage. If you can sell me on shatter though, I'd gladly take it :D, I loved the 3.5 equivalent. Once collapsed a wooden stair case, and plunged several foes that failed their dex saves a fair distance down. Yay prone and falling damage! Funtimes.

[Dalebert]

Well, another upside to Shatter is you don't have to waste a precious Magical Secrets slot on it. It's a bard spell. Fireball is nice but I just find it hard to compete against much more versatile and powerful spells like Conjure Animals.

[Biggstick]

Yay, I'm happy at the overwhelming amount of responses. Sorry I, myself, hadn't responded sooner, life got kinda hectic. Anywho!

I can see how I was a bit narrow-minded in my approach to concentration spells. I am of the mind-set that if I'm going to cast a spell, I'm going to milk it for all its worth. However, as you've already pointed out, there are several circumstances where it might be prudent to cast another, your opponent saves, or you simply lose your concentration. I got a bit of tunnel vision there in my zeal to be efficient. Makes sense.

As to spell choice, my third level slot may have been decided for me. The person playing the life cleric will not be joining us, so I'll likely be picking up the slack with aura of vitality when I hit 6th. Unless of course one of us decides to get that feat that makes healing kits more effective between rests. I wanted to take inspiring leader, but I'm thinking I'll gimp myself early if I don't take that +2 to CHA, since DCs are important to bard spells. I'm already pushing Resilient (Con) back to 8th level, and that is no-bueno for my ability to not get disrupted.

Actually - come to think of it - would it be better to take resilient con earlier, and push back the CHA increase?

Also, brainface mentioned good sonic spells. How do you figure? I found them relatively lackluster when compared to say... fireball. The only advantage is that sonic is a rarely resisted energy type.

Shatter: 10-ft radius, range of 60 ft, 4d8 damage up-cast to 3rd level slot, and it has a con save.

Fireball: 20-ft radius, range of 150 feet, 8d6 damage as 3rd level slot, and dex save.

I feel as though the 3.5 version got you more mileage. If you can sell me on shatter though, I'd gladly take it :D, I loved the 3.5 equivalent. Once collapsed a wooden stair case, and plunged several foes that failed their dex saves a fair distance down. Yay prone and falling damage! Funtimes.

You should definitely consider picking up Inspiring Leader if you're planning on taking over for a Life Cleric. You'll be a Short Rest monster, providing temporary Hp to the entire party, plus extra healing if they use a hit die, plus all of your Bardic Inspirations will refresh on short rests as well.

Another way I put Inspiring Leader to people considering it. The feat is worth the amount of a Mass Healing Word cast on your entire party, and that's at level 4! Once you get higher levels, it's even more valuable in providing an Hp buffer for your squishier team mates.

I would stick with Shatter instead of taking Fireball. Use your Magical Secrets to pick up Counterspell and Aura of Vitality and you'll be set.

[Dalebert]

You should definitely consider picking up Inspiring Leader if you're planning on taking over for a Life Cleric.

Holy crap! I just realized this works on your familiar (and any other animal companions as well) giving it a slim chance of not being killed in one hit. My lore bard is taking this next level for sure, especially since he's now technically undead and immune to most healing spells.