Most Evil Phylactery Hiding Places [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Death_Lord12

2016-06-16, 08:37 PM

So, using any core/3rd party/whatever, what are the most evil phylacteries you people have heard of/made yourself? I'm not asking for hard to find (single grain of sand at the bottom of the ocean), I'm talking like people will die either getting to it or destroying it, not even just a TPK, like a ton of NPCs as well. Keep it realistically possible (no crazy template stacking if it involves creatures), but still crazy evil. Here's one I got:

Tyrannical duke who is a level 20 of this class (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Demon_Knight_(3.5e_Class)) (yes I know it's homebrew), the phylactery is his crown, which also functions as a hat of disguise (though the hat itself is stuck as a crown), the big gem on the crown is actually a gem that was used for Trap the Soul to trap a Tarrasque of Legend (Tarrasque, with Monster of Legend template), so someone has to kill/steal the crown off the duke, and when they destroy it they release the Tarrasque.

Edit: The duke actually isn't the Lich, the Lich is a different guy and the duke is just is evil ally, and the duke just thinks the lich gave him the crown to help hide the duke's disfigurements (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/fiendish-codex-ii-tyrants-of-the-nine-hells--67/devils-flesh--600/index.html), so the duke doesn't know the crown is a phylactery, and he definitely doesn't know about the Tarrasque of Legend inside the crown's gem.

So what's some other extremely evil phylactery ideas?

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-06-16, 08:40 PM

Malimar

2016-06-16, 09:01 PM

In the backhistory of my setting, there were once two necromancers who loved each other so much that they turned each other into their phylacteries when they became lichs. It proved too difficult to destroy them both at once, and if one was destroyed, she just regenerated next to the other after 1d10 days. The world was only spared their depredations when they got bored and hopped a spelljammer to find other worlds to conquer.

Zancloufer

2016-06-16, 10:07 PM

You think it would be possible to use the Deck of Campaign Destroying Many Things as a Phylactery? Mabye if you are really evil make it one of those "Screw you, Rocks fall you Die" cards.

Artifacts in general would be rather evil. Major Artifacts are practically indestructible and on the off chance you do succeed. . .

Or the Moon. Yes make your Phylactery the moon. Not only is it extremely hard to destroy, but it's destruction would be like the apocalypse twice over.

Lord Vukodlak

2016-06-16, 10:15 PM

This isn't the most evil phylactery hiding place but it is the most evil thing done to one. My evil cleric used Miracle to remove a phylactery's ability to regenerate the Lich. I could have destroyed it, any number of ways but instead I decided to use my magic to turn it from a phylactery into a soul gem.

Crake

2016-06-17, 12:59 AM

Anyone talking about making certain things the phylactery with the intent that destroying said thing would be morally wrong is forgetting about disjunction destroying the magic without destroying the thing in question. That wouldn't work for the OP's idea of course, because the disjunction would similarly dispel the trap the soul effect. As for using polymorph any object to make a little girl, any sensible person wouldn't care, the little girl isn't real, has no soul, and is literally just a magical effect. It'd be like killing a simulacrum or an ice assassin.

dehro

2016-06-17, 08:52 AM

Willie the Duck

2016-06-17, 09:33 AM

Tyrannical duke who is a level 20 of this class (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Demon_Knight_(3.5e_Class)) (yes I know it's homebrew), the phylactery is his crown, which also functions as a hat of disguise (though the hat itself is stuck as a crown), the big gem on the crown is actually a gem that was used for Trap the Soul to trap a Tarrasque of Legend (Tarrasque, with Monster of Legend template), so someone has to kill/steal the crown off the duke, and when they destroy it they release the Tarrasque.

Did the duke advertise this fact? Did people know that destroying his phylactery would be a world-shatteringly bad idea? Otherwise it's not a disincentive for people making the attempt, and thus the duke would have no incentive to do so.

Anyone talking about making certain things the phylactery with the intent that destroying said thing would be morally wrong is forgetting about disjunction destroying the magic without destroying the thing in question. That wouldn't work for the OP's idea of course, because the disjunction would similarly dispel the trap the soul effect. As for using polymorph any object to make a little girl, any sensible person wouldn't care, the little girl isn't real, has no soul, and is literally just a magical effect. It'd be like killing a simulacrum or an ice assassin.

Well, that's true, but you could put it on something that you don't want disjoined. Magical protection that keeps an elder demon locked away for all time? Make it your phylactery, see if they disjoin it. Sacred relic which cures the sick and feeds thousands every day? Make it your phylactery, see if they disjoin it.

Of course this works when the DM is doing it. If you're a player going to the DM saying, "there's nothing in the rules which say you can't make a major artifact into your phylactery," be prepared to get an eye-roll of epic proportion.

As to the little girl--well maybe, maybe not. The spell (reading from the SRD) is silent on the issue. It would be a cruel DM to begin with that said that items polymorphed into intelligent creatures had emergent intelligence and were self aware ("you think you're a person, but in reality you are a pebble which I cast a spell on, 20 minutes from now you will revert and cease to be." Sounds more like metaphysical sci-fi than fantasy). Either way, the potential phylactery hunters would have to know that the little girl wasn't a real girl or else it would still be a pretty evil little strategy.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-06-17, 09:35 AM

clearly, if you haven't gone back in time a few thousand years and stuck your phylactery up a baby dragon's bum you've been doing it wrong.
no, not a red dragon.. a gold dragon, better yet, make it the current ruler of the dragons.
I'd love to see people go try and pose as proctologists...
or, you know.. just kill the dragon, desecrate its corpse to find the thing and get the entire dragon nation on your tail.Or anonymously kill a celestial prismatic dragon, turn its corpse into your phylactery, give it a fudge-ton of permabuffs that only work on objects, raise it as undead, give it all the permabuffs you have on hand that work best (or only) on undead, then hit it with a true resurrection before convincing it you saved its life, and then teleporting out.

...or better yet, see if you can manage this on bahamut.

Captain Raveman

2016-06-17, 09:40 AM

I'm assuming you're not allowed to make the entire planet your phylactery, right?

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-06-17, 09:57 AM

I'm assuming you're not allowed to make the entire planet your phylactery, right?Nothing saying you can't.

Oh! I have an idea! Make the planet your phylactery! :smallamused:

Zancloufer

2016-06-17, 10:58 AM

I already mentioned the moon. . .

I mean not only would be almost as hard to destroy (and bad) as the planet, good luck getting there AND figuring it out. Making the entire planet one giant magical item might be too obvious and not to mention too easy to accidentally be hit by a disjunction.

Major artifacts work well because (A) they are very hard to destroy and/or disjuntion. (B) terrible things tend to happen to the people that do succeed.

Telonius

2016-06-17, 10:58 AM

My favorite one was for a Dracolich. He hid his phylactery in the tip of a (lead-lined) scabbard. It was made to be a matched set with a +3 Holy Bane (Dragon) greatsword. So, heroes kill the dracolich. Loot the sword, don't notice the (very small) jewel hidden way down in the scabbard. Being do-gooders, they use the sword to kill off some other dragons. The Dracolich rises again and goes off on his merry way. The phylactery is in the safest place it could possibly be: protected by a bunch of people who were more powerful than even the Dracolich.

Strigon

2016-06-17, 11:03 AM

Did the duke advertise this fact? Did people know that destroying his phylactery would be a world-shatteringly bad idea? Otherwise it's not a disincentive for people making the attempt, and thus the duke would have no incentive to do so.

True, unless the Duke is particularly vindictive or spiteful.
If I were Evil, and didn't care about collateral damage, then you can bet I'd take that one last opportunity to have the final word over anyone who got the better of me.

Willie the Duck

2016-06-17, 11:07 AM

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-17, 11:07 AM

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-06-17, 11:12 AM

Try the Three Wolf Moon shirt (https://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Three-Wolf-Moon-Adult/dp/B007I4HI1K/ref=sr_1_1?s=apparel&ie=UTF8&qid=1466179792&sr=1-1&nodeID=7141123011&keywords=three+wolf+moon). Destroying that would be a sin against nature. You would have armies accosting you at every turn if you dared to so much as harm a single thread on the magnificent beasts!

Look at the comments section (https://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Three-Wolf-Moon-Adult/dp/B007I4HI1K/ref=sr_1_1?s=apparel&ie=UTF8&qid=1466179792&sr=1-1&nodeID=7141123011&keywords=three+wolf+moon#customerReviews) if you don't believe me. George Takei's review is particularly poignant. Do not harm the shirt or you WILL be teleporter'd into the sun.

Bucky

2016-06-17, 11:18 AM

As to the little girl--well maybe, maybe not. The spell (reading from the SRD) is silent on the issue. It would be a cruel DM to begin with that said that items polymorphed into intelligent creatures had emergent intelligence and were self aware ("you think you're a person, but in reality you are a pebble which I cast a spell on, 20 minutes from now you will revert and cease to be." Sounds more like metaphysical sci-fi than fantasy). Either way, the potential phylactery hunters would have to know that the little girl wasn't a real girl or else it would still be a pretty evil little strategy.

Which is why you reverse the process; Take a creature that's inherently good and immortal, turn it into an object and enchant it as a phylactery. But you can probably do better than a little girl; pick someone whose death would have actual consequences.

Berenger

2016-06-17, 11:22 AM

Segev

2016-06-17, 11:33 AM

This is a variant on the classic "make it something nobody wants to kill" angle.

Alter self or disguise self into something that looks, if not "wholesome," at least not obviously repugnantly evil. Make a bargain with a barren king or queen that you will guarantee them a child if they will make you their vizier. Yes, it's a classic to have an evil vizier, but you're going to be smart about this.

You transform your phylactery, via polymorph any object, into whatever it is in your setting that corresponds to the mother or father's half of what produces a child. (If using real-world genetics, either a sperm or an egg.) The child's very genes are your phylactery, and as he reproduces, his descendants will be, as well.

Now, to secure this, you spend at least one lifetime helping this royal family raise their child. You study philosophy and wisdom, and seek to make him as good and as beloved and as successful as you can. You do not want your dynastic phylactery to empower yourself in this land. No, no. You want them to love and adore you as a trusted mentor who would never betray them...because you won't. You don't poop where you eat. Your evil is far away, in other lands; here, you give the honestly best advice you can, and raise them to genuinely be good and kind as well as wise. If this ever looks to backfire because the best choice is the evil one...well, that's why you're there. And your loyalty and the overall benefit to the kingdom will probably overshadow it in the eyes of those you've raised to trust you.

Again: you're not setting them up for betrayal, and you'll even bow out of things, mostly, if asked. Your only goal is to secure their dynasty.

Because after a few generations, the Good and Noble Royal Family is your phylactery. They're beloved. They're generous and kind. They're wise and prudent. Their kingdom thrives and their people are happy and safe. And to kill you...the entire line has to be hunted down and destroyed to the last living bastard child. (By the way, the one foible you probably want to encourage is promiscuity.)

After a couple of centuries, your phylactery-line will be so dispersed that it won't hurt you if you let the dynasty fall. Now the peasantry of an entire kingdom is definitely your life-force, and probably there are bearers of your legacy (and life-force) in many neighboring kingdoms.

Maybe the "heroes" don't have to get themselves and their followers killed; maybe none of them are descended of that line, and they can pick their companions to avoid it. But even then, even if there were no risk to their own life...to kill you permanently, they have to enact a genocide.

Rijan_Sai

2016-06-17, 11:44 AM

Nothing saying you can't.

Oh! I have an idea! Make the planet your phylactery! :smallamused:

So, Unicron (http://transformersprime.wikia.com/wiki/Unicron)?

During the battle between Unicron and his brother at the beginning of time, Unicron was cast out by Primus and the Thirteen and over time matter formed around his body and he became the planet Earth itself, which he became the creator of human kind.:smallbiggrin:

My personal favorite is to use Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) to create a major positive-dominant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#positiveDominant) demi-plane, and set up shop there. (YMMV on Genesis and planar-traits; see your DM for any concerns and restrictions.)

Why is this "evil?" Because a major positive-dominant plane is horrendously bad for the living, while being quite conducive to undeadness! Positive energy, and fast healing in particular, is not in and of itself harmful to undead (only specific healing spells that state that they damage undead do so.) Also, by RAW undead are immune to the "Fort save or 'splode" that mp-d's tend to cause! And since atmosphere is specifically allowed in Genesis, and undead don't need to breath, oxygen is not a concern.

Yes, there are ways around it; but between finding, accessing, and surviving the demi-plane (not to mention the hordes of undead that the lich can and should have guarding him/her, as well as the castle*) it would at least make for a nice high-level adventure!

*What do you mean "What castle?"

Flickerdart

2016-06-17, 11:45 AM

I'm assuming you're not allowed to make the entire planet your phylactery, right?
Phylacteries don't work that way. You can't just point to an object and say "this is where my soul hangs out now." While a phylactery can take many forms, the lich must craft it himself.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-06-17, 11:50 AM

Become a psi-lich (or just take a level in psion) and make your psicrystal your phylactery. Then turn your phylactery into a demiplane. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031219a)

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-17, 11:56 AM

I think it might be time to call in an expert: Red Fel! Red Fel! Red Fel!... This might take a while, I have 663 more to go.

Flickerdart

2016-06-17, 12:23 PM

Become a psi-lich (or just take a level in psion) and make your psicrystal your phylactery. Then turn your phylactery into a demiplane. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031219a)

That is a terrible idea, since "the original crystal is destroyed in the process."

SwordChucks

2016-06-17, 12:27 PM

Phylacteries don't work that way. You can't just point to an object and say "this is where my soul hangs out now." While a phylactery can take many forms, the lich must craft it himself.

Even if you could make the planet into your phylactery, could you imagine what would happen to someone looking for magic auras?

Wizard: I'll just cast Arcane Sight and see what's magic in this loot pile. OH GODS MY EYES!

arclance

2016-06-17, 12:31 PM

This artifact (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/artifacts/minor-artifacts/knucklebone-of-fickle-fortune) from Pathfinder is one of the worst you could do. Note that if you roll it once per round, you have approximately a 25% chance of destroying it before the eventual heat death of the universe.
You can use this option of Mythic Wish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-magic/augmented-spells#TOC-Wish) to determine the outcome of d20 roll.

Alter fate. By expending A second use of mythic power, you can cast mythic wish as an immediate action before a 1d20 roll is attempted and choose what number you want to come up on the die.
20 castings of Mythic Wish can destroy the Knucklebone of Fickle Fortune.
You don't need to make all 20 d20 rolls in the same day so it can be done by a 17th level Wizard with 1 Mythic Tier who knows Mythic Wish in 10 days.
If the Wizard has 9+ Mythic Tiers it can be done in 20 rounds.

Phylacteries don't work that way. You can't just point to an object and say "this is where my soul hangs out now." While a phylactery can take many forms, the lich must craft it himself.
To moon idea can still be made to work though.
You just have to use the moon as the base material to make something with the intention of it being your phylactery from the beginning.
Just be sure to keep it symmetrical so you don't alter the orbit too much or your moon phylactery will fall out of orbit and break when it destroys the world.
I would make a vacation/resort/casino/evil moon base and make parts of it open to the "Public".
You have enough room to make areas that appeal to all parts of society and keep the parts that don't like the others separate so the moon eventually becomes part of a treasured childhood memory of vacations with their parents of a large part of the planets population.
Who would want to destroy Disney Land/Las Vegas?

J-H

2016-06-17, 12:32 PM

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-17, 12:37 PM

You can use this option of Mythic Wish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-magic/augmented-spells#TOC-Wish) to determine the outcome of d20 roll.

20 castings of Mythic Wish can destroy the Knucklebone of Fickle Fortune.
You don't need to make all 20 d20 rolls in the same day so it can be done by a 17th level Wizard with 1 Mythic Tier who knows Mythic Wish in 10 days.
If the Wizard has 9+ Mythic Tiers it can be done in 20 rounds.

From the item's entry itself:

The knucklebone of fickle fortune disappears if its Eha-Zah face (a 20 on the die) comes up on 20 consecutive rolls. Some sages believe that this does not destroy the artifact, and it instead reappears at some random spot in the world. Such knowledge is purely conjecture, for it is not known whether anyone has accomplished this improbable task.

It's not even guaranteed that the item can be destroyed. It just "disappears."

Braininthejar2

2016-06-17, 12:43 PM

You could take a classic book example and put a piece of your soul in the protagonist's head :p

Or... make the phylactery into a spell focus for a powerful permanent spell - like, say, a ritual that keeps a volcano dormant? People love to settle in such areas (volcanic soil can be a boon for farmers), just please, let nobody touch that stone, please? it has to remain inside the circle...

(other variations include a mortal settlement on the planes, with an item keeping it hidden from locals, or keeping hostile environment at bay.)

Red Fel

2016-06-17, 12:44 PM

I think it might be time to call in an expert: Red Fel! Red Fel! Red Fel!... This might take a while, I have 663 more to go.

I seem to remember one plan that involved turning a perfectly ordinary coin into a phylactery, then putting it into a chest full of other identical coins, all enhanced with Nystul's Magic Aura as you like, then give the whole thing over to an incredibly old dragon as "tribute."

In all likelihood, the phylactery-coin will simply rest there forever, one among countless others, overseen by an extremely powerful and territorial being who will probably never die, and is highly unlikely to ever abandon his vigil.

But come on, phylactery? That's some amateur crap, chief. Real immortals don't need a soul-vessel; they just refuse to die.

Kids these days.

... I didn't say you could stop, Elric.

arclance

2016-06-17, 12:45 PM

From the item's entry itself:

The knucklebone of fickle fortune disappears if its Eha-Zah face (a 20 on the die) comes up on 20 consecutive rolls. Some sages believe that this does not destroy the artifact, and it instead reappears at some random spot in the world. Such knowledge is purely conjecture, for it is not known whether anyone has accomplished this improbable task.
It's not even guaranteed that the item can be destroyed. It just "disappears."
Yes but that is entering DM Fiat Land and once you enter there methods for destroying artifacts have no meaning unless the DM wants them too.

Your original post about it also implied that the "roll 20 on a d20 20 times in a row" option worked for the sake of theory crafting in this thread.

This artifact (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/artifacts/minor-artifacts/knucklebone-of-fickle-fortune) from Pathfinder is one of the worst you could do. Note that if you roll it once per round, you have approximately a 25% chance of destroying it before the eventual heat death of the universe.
Bringing that up in a real game after the fact like this would just be a DM Fiat bait and switch removal of the players ability to influnce things of the most painfully blatant kind.

Flickerdart

2016-06-17, 12:46 PM

In all likelihood, the phylactery-coin will simply rest there forever, one among countless others, overseen by an extremely powerful and territorial being who will probably never die, and is highly unlikely to ever abandon his vigil.
And how do you think he's going to react when the lich suddenly shows up in his hoard?

Red Fel

2016-06-17, 12:51 PM

And how do you think he's going to react when the lich suddenly shows up in his hoard?

Where does it actually say you show up next to your phylactery?

Per the monster's description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm):
An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.

Does it say "a lich reappears next to its phylactery 1d10 days after its apparent death"? Nope. It just says the Lich reappears. The phylactery anchors the Lich to the world of the living, but nowhere does it say that the Lich is anchored to the phylactery.

Bohandas

2016-06-17, 01:32 PM

What if vIt's a load-bearing phylactery? Deatroy it and the whole place falls down on top of you.

Gildedragon

2016-06-17, 01:56 PM

What if vIt's a load-bearing phylactery? Deatroy it and the whole place falls down on top of you.

Good guys are willing to have the roof fall on one if it means stopping a great evil. I mean there's textbook examples of that: the fiahgod cultists know that first hand when they tried sacrificing a champion of good that was tied to their columns.
Don't underestimate us... and more importantly don't underestimate the selfdestructive potential of people with a cause.

But probably the evilest place to hide a phylactery is in the lower planes

Oh what, you mean evil ways to hide a phylactery?
Easy: tie it to the destruction of the world, via elder evil or the like; have it be well publicised.
Or the bloodline one, I like that. But there's no need to be that goody good. Teleport through time the bloodline bearer to the distant past, have him shag a lot. Artificially inseminate people through the ages with the seed of your phylactery.
That is also probably the best way to avoid destruction too... Just carry a phial of their quintessenced blood to keep you safe in case of planetary annihilation

But bloodline probably won't work...

For similar efect: before lichdom TpTT to the past. Be fertile and sow your oats wide, through several generations.
Step two: make a riverine vessel, fill with quintessence
Step three: make a pact with a fiend, putting down as collateral all the souls of your progeny.
Step four: collect your reward from the fiend, dip fiend into the vessel.
Step five: make the vessel into your phylactery.
Step six: Just DARE the Heroes to damn a significant portion of the world's souls when they break the vessel and free the fiend.
You're already dead; the pact is up for collecting.

Steps 1 & 2-4 are interchangeable

Also it needn't be riverine; it could be plain ordinary glass.

Bonus steps
Spread the legend of the Demon.
TpTT your phylactery, found an order of LG (exalted) monks/mages/clerics devoted to protecting your phylactery.
Make sure they are very removed from the world and legendary. Hook them up with artificers and cost reduction tricks

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-06-17, 02:04 PM

Or the bloodline one, I like that. But there's no need to be that goody good. Teleport through time the bloodline bearer to the distant past, have him shag a lot. Artificially inseminate people through the ages with the seed of your phylactery.
That is also probably the best way to avoid destruction too... Just carry a phial of their quintessenced blood to keep you safe in case of planetary annihilationYou could always use compulsion magic to force all of your progeny to create as many progeny with as many others as they physically can (while also not dying of starvation) and regenerative magic to allow that to happen a lot more than nature would otherwise allow...

Also, store them on a fast-time demiplane with lots of resources, ship a few more people in to increase genetic diversity, allow time to do its thing, and then ship thousands of people out to earlier and earlier time periods to continue the trend (and a few later on, just in case).

[edit] You should probably curse all of your descendants to sire only male children after the first few generations, so they aren't waiting in the wings for 9 months (depending on species) at a time.

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-17, 02:38 PM

... I didn't say you could stop, Elric.

You didn't say please either :smalltongue:

God of War vs. God of Evil? I don't see much reason to fight, do you?

Yes but that is entering DM Fiat Land and once you enter there methods for destroying artifacts have no meaning unless the DM wants them too.

Your original post about it also implied that the "roll 20 on a d20 20 times in a row" option worked for the sake of theory crafting in this thread.

Bringing that up in a real game after the fact like this would just be a DM Fiat bait and switch removal of the players ability to influnce things of the most painfully blatant kind.

Alright, that's fair. I wasn't as clear as I could be. The artifact might be destroyed by the act of rolling, or it might just disappear and reappear somewhere else on the planet.

I also went digging to look for a FAQ I vaguely remembered saying you couldn't use roll influencing effects (like mythic wish) on the knucklebone, but I couldn't find one, so I'll chalk that up to a confused house rule or something. If you've got mythic wish on your side, most stuff becomes utterly trivial.

ExLibrisMortis

2016-06-17, 03:03 PM

I'm not sure it has been mentioned, but I'd like to point out that your phylactery cannot have any other enchantments on it, that is, a phylactery must be made from a nonmagical item.

I like the idea of a 25' voidstone block of a phylactery, placed in front of a 25' portal, which leads to the Elemental Plane of Fire. The whole setup is in a cave, with a thin wall separating it from the magma chamber of a dormant volcano, which is next to a busy town. The phylactery nonmagically disintegrates anything that touches it (Fort DC 25 to resist), and it is eating an endless incursion of EPF super-heated lava (which, as object, gets no save vs. disintegrate). If you destroy the phylactery, the lava eats through the thin/illusory wall within minutes, and reactivates the volcano. Have fun :smallsmile:.

Telonius

2016-06-17, 03:04 PM

Who tend to go adventuring and face down fireballs, lava pits, black dragon spittle, etc... Not nice having the source of your power subjected to item saving throws every year or two with no knowledge of what's happening to it.

Lava can be an issue, but the fact that it's embedded inside the scabbard (and encased in lead) means line of effect is usually going to be denied. The scabbard would have to be destroyed for it to become a problem.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-06-17, 03:16 PM

I'm not sure it has been mentioned, but I'd like to point out that your phylactery cannot have any other enchantments on it, that is, a phylactery must be made from a nonmagical item.Just use a Persisted dispel on it, and it's nonmagical for 24 hours. Empower and Maximize could easily boost the dispel check, if you need it really high, as well. Or you could always enhance it after the fact, if need be.

Lava can be an issue, but the fact that it's embedded inside the scabbard (and encased in lead) means line of effect is usually going to be denied. The scabbard would have to be destroyed for it to become a problem.Riverine. And you can turn the scabbard into a weapon itself and add the ringsword quality, and give it a built-in poison ring with spellblade on it that's attuned to disintegrate.

ExLibrisMortis

2016-06-17, 03:35 PM

Just use a Persisted dispel on it, and it's nonmagical for 24 hours. Empower and Maximize could easily boost the dispel check, if you need it really high, as well. Or you could always enhance it after the fact, if need be.
Dispel magic doesn't make an item nonmagical (it just suppresses the magic), and it can't be persisted, either (it's instantaneous, and it's medium range).

You can't enhance a phylactery after making it. Libris Mortis, page 151: "A phylactery cannot be part of another magic item, nor may additional magical properties be built into it".

Gildedragon

2016-06-17, 03:44 PM

There is also the preventing the phylactery from ever being destroyed by giving it to a minion you cast Forced Dream on, then quintessence dip... Or glass vessel phylactery, if broken the minion is freed and the clock gets reset and at least you know your current defenses weren't beefy enough.
Beef them up

And to keep progress: build checkpoints a'la nesting doll. Make another vessel, fill with quintessence, stuff previous vessel into a portable hole or shrink it or something, give it to the new minion, forced dream on minion, dip minion; repeat every time you make progress (learn a spell, gain a level, etc...)

Flickerdart

2016-06-17, 03:45 PM

Where does it actually say you show up next to your phylactery?

Per the monster's description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm):

Does it say "a lich reappears next to its phylactery 1d10 days after its apparent death"? Nope. It just says the Lich reappears. The phylactery anchors the Lich to the world of the living, but nowhere does it say that the Lich is anchored to the phylactery.

Dracoliches do, so there's that.

I went to read other books that talk about liches, and came out with a few interesting pieces from Libris Mortis:

Regardless of the phylactery’s form, its game statistics remain the same: size Tiny, hp 40, hardness 20, break DC 40.
So the "make it a moon" strategy doesn't work, nor can you make it a grain of sand. It's always Tiny.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-06-17, 03:57 PM

Dispel magic doesn't make an item nonmagical (it just suppresses the magic), and it can't be persisted, either (it's instantaneous, and it's medium range).I'm afraid RAW explicitly disagrees with you on it being nonmagical.

A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect.So just go to a timeless plane in regards to magical effects. That 1d4 rounds keeps going...and going...and going...

You can't enhance a phylactery after making it. Libris Mortis, page 151: "A phylactery cannot be part of another magic item, nor may additional magical properties be built into it".And yet you can still get away with stuff like "PAO into a creature, give it permanent buffs (see below)." Also note that you can get around this restriction with the above trick.

Dracoliches do, so there's that.

I went to read other books that talk about liches, and came out with a few interesting pieces from Libris Mortis:

So the "make it a moon" strategy doesn't work, nor can you make it a grain of sand. It's always Tiny.Polymorph any object still works on it, though, if you cast it in an AMF.

Honest Tiefling

2016-06-17, 04:18 PM

Use that spell that splits your phylactery into lots of pieces. Polymorph any object one of the pieces into an especially adorable little elan girl, and ensure she remains a little girl (both in body and in mind) without aging. She's immortal, and anyone trying to destroy her...well...

I can just imagine some adventurers stumbling onto this plan and getting a really wrong idea about what is happening..."So...Uh...He keeps them as little girls? Is anyone else, ah...Worried?"

And if I was the duke, I'd just keep spreading rumors about shiny objects in my possession and secret rooms. And then just fill them up with junk with multiple fake magical auras. So many magical auras that anyone attempting to detect magic gets blinded from all of the auras and it resembles a tacky rave to anyone trying. Detect magic in my house, will you!?

And if he has any nephews or nieces that are conventionally handsome that are redheaded or blonde, well, they're getting used to hold my phylactery, especially if they're good aligned. I wonder if there is a way to put it in that ensures the death or torment of the person being used to hold it...

Strigon

2016-06-17, 04:25 PM

So the "make it a moon" strategy doesn't work, nor can you make it a grain of sand. It's always Tiny.

Actually, it just says "regardless of form, it's always Tiny".
This means - to me, at least - it can be any colour size you want, as long as it's black Tiny. Meaning, it can be a moon, and several hundred miles in diameter, but it's no easier or harder to spot than any other Tiny object. It's mechanically treated as being Tiny.

Granted, that's a fairly silly ruling, but I'm having trouble interpreting those words any other way.

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-17, 04:34 PM

Actually, it just says "regardless of form, it's always Tiny".
This means - to me, at least - it can be any colour size you want, as long as it's black Tiny. Meaning, it can be a moon, and several hundred miles in diameter, but it's no easier or harder to spot than any other Tiny object. It's mechanically treated as being Tiny.

Granted, that's a fairly silly ruling, but I'm having trouble interpreting those words any other way.

Alternatively, the act of turning the moon into your phylactery decreases the size of the moon until it's Tiny. I'll let those with physics degrees explore the ramifications of that occurrence.:smallwink:

Flickerdart

2016-06-17, 04:40 PM

If you want to interpret a sensible rule in the most absurd way possible, you can just say that making a phylactery that's not Tiny changes the meaning of Tiny into whatever new size the phylactery is.

ExLibrisMortis

2016-06-17, 04:43 PM

I'm afraid RAW explicitly disagrees with you on it being nonmagical.

So just go to a timeless plane in regards to magical effects. That 1d4 rounds keeps going...and going...and going...
That's interesting, I never noticed that particular quirk. I'm still not convinced that it's actually useful, however. As long as the item is nonmagical, it doesn't provide its benefits, so they are wasted. The moment you finish enchanting the phylactery, it is also suppressed, still being on the static time plane, thus wasted. This isn't immediately problematic, as I don't expect you need to respawn right after crafting, but it does block the essential function of the phylactery. And then of course, the moment you dispel the dispel, your phylactery is illegal, which is a good reason for your DM to mess with you.

Assuming I were to enforce the rule in the first place, I personally wouldn't allow this workaround to work, because there is never a point where the phylactery is both legal and providing magic item benefits, so I don't see the point in allowing what appears to be a contradiction of RAI.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-06-17, 04:54 PM

That's interesting, I never noticed that particular quirk. I'm still not convinced that it's actually useful, however. As long as the item is nonmagical, it doesn't provide its benefits, so they are wasted. The moment you finish enchanting the phylactery, it is also suppressed, still being on the static time plane, thus wasted. This isn't immediately problematic, as I don't expect you need to respawn right after crafting, but it does block the essential function of the phylactery. And then of course, the moment you dispel the dispel, your phylactery is illegal, which is a good reason for your DM to mess with you.

Assuming I were to enforce the rule in the first place, I personally wouldn't allow this workaround to work, because there is never a point where the phylactery is both legal and providing magic item benefits, so I don't see the point in allowing what appears to be a contradiction of RAI.A device from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood works just fine as a phylactery, as it's nonmagical despite being nigh identical to the magical version of whatever it is.

So there's that.

ExLibrisMortis

2016-06-17, 06:23 PM

A device from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood works just fine as a phylactery, as it's nonmagical despite being nigh identical to the magical version of whatever it is.

So there's that.
You can build some pretty crazy storylines about the lich whose phylactery is a device spell clock of blasphemy :smallbiggrin:.

Death_Lord12

2016-06-17, 06:26 PM

Did the duke advertise this fact? Did people know that destroying his phylactery would be a world-shatteringly bad idea? Otherwise it's not a disincentive for people making the attempt, and thus the duke would have no incentive to do so.
Oops sorry, I forgot to clarify: the duke actually isn't the Lich, the Lich is a different guy and the duke is just is evil ally, and the duke just thinks the lich gave him the crown to help hide the duke's disfigurements (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/fiendish-codex-ii-tyrants-of-the-nine-hells--67/devils-flesh--600/index.html), so the duke doesn't know the crown is a phylactery, and he definitely doesn't know about the Tarrasque of Legend inside the crown's gem. I'll edit the original post to clarify this.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-06-17, 06:58 PM

You can build some pretty crazy storylines about the lich whose phylactery is a device spell clock of blasphemy :smallbiggrin:.I think you mean Fell Animate blasphemy. I mean, it's a potentially massive hoard of undead that continues growing and becoming more powerful the more heroes it slays. Why not?

Strigon

2016-06-17, 08:08 PM

Death_Lord12

2016-06-17, 08:24 PM

I mean, that still doesn't answer the question of how the Tarrasque helps the Lich
Well, if people manage to kill the duke, then they destroy the phylactery, they have to fight the Tarrasque, which would be really bad if they destroy the phylactery right after killing the duke because they'd be weakened, so the Lich will hope they die and he won't have to deal with them coming after him. And if the lich is one of those liches that likes killing people (which in my campaign, it is) that Tarrasque will probably do a good amount of damage.

TheCrowing1432

2016-06-17, 10:56 PM

A +5 magic weapon.

Willie the Duck

2016-06-20, 11:03 AM

Oops sorry, I forgot to clarify: the duke actually isn't the Lich, the Lich is a different guy and the duke is just is evil ally, and the duke just thinks the lich gave him the crown to help hide the duke's disfigurements (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/fiendish-codex-ii-tyrants-of-the-nine-hells--67/devils-flesh--600/index.html), so the duke doesn't know the crown is a phylactery, and he definitely doesn't know about the Tarrasque of Legend inside the crown's gem. I'll edit the original post to clarify this.

So either way, people don't know that the phylactery contains the Tarrasque. So why did the lich put the Tarrasque in the phylactery? If people don't know about it, it doesn't stop people from trying to destroy the phylactery. If not as a deterrent from people trying to permakill him, why is the lich putting (effectively) doomsday devices in his stuff? It does him no good.

"the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell the world, EH?" -- Dr. Strangelove,

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-20, 12:17 PM

So either way, people don't know that the phylactery contains the Tarrasque. So why did the lich put the Tarrasque in the phylactery? If people don't know about it, it doesn't stop people from trying to destroy the phylactery. If not as a deterrent from people trying to permakill him, why is the lich putting (effectively) doomsday devices in his stuff? It does him no good.

"the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell the world, EH?" -- Dr. Strangelove,

Spite. extra letters....

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-06-20, 12:21 PM

Spite.Yep. Spite and revenge on those who destroyed his phylactery. My question is, why wouldn't you trap the tarrasque in your phylactery?

JNAProductions

2016-06-20, 12:22 PM

Yep. Spite and revenge on those who destroyed his phylactery. My question is, why wouldn't you trap the tarrasque in your phylactery?

Because there are more dangerous creatures to trap?

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-20, 12:23 PM

Yep. Spite and revenge on those who destroyed his phylactery. My question is, why wouldn't you trap the tarrasque in your phylactery?

Because it has a crappy Will Save and if someone's strong enough to find and break your phylactery they're probably strong enough to dominate the tarrasque and use it against you.

Red Fel

2016-06-20, 12:30 PM

See, here's the problem. Everyone is coming up with contingencies for what to do when the heroes find and destroy your phylactery. And that's fine, it's an excellent exercise in spite, and I get that.

My logic is this: Why have a phylactery if you plan for it being destroyed? Wouldn't it be better to ensure that it can't or won't be destroyed?

So your phylactery drops lava on a kingdom if destroyed. That's good, that's fine, but the kingdom can be evacuated. The heroes have found the phylactery, only a matter of time before they break it.

So your phylactery unleashes a monster if destroyed. That's nice, bunch of dead heroes who destroyed your phylactery, but it doesn't change the fact that your phylactery is gone.

If I must have a phylactery, I'd much prefer that it remain intact, thanks.

Malimar

2016-06-20, 12:34 PM

My logic is this: Why have a phylactery if you plan for it being destroyed? Wouldn't it be better to ensure that it can't or won't be destroyed?

Part of whether this is a problem depends on whether or not a lich can produce a new phylactery after the original is destroyed. If they can't, absolutely it's a bad idea to let the phylactery get destroyed in the first place. If they can, it's just an inconvenience, and if your phylactery releases a disaster when destroyed, that makes for a good distraction for the heroes, making time for you to create a new one. (I don't recall offhand whether the RAW establishes an answer one way or the other.)

Flickerdart

2016-06-20, 12:44 PM

Part of whether this is a problem depends on whether or not a lich can produce a new phylactery after the original is destroyed.
They explicitly can't, as discussed in Libris Mortis. A lich with a broken phylactery remains upright and mobile, but his next death will be his last.

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-20, 12:45 PM

They explicitly can't, as discussed in Libris Mortis. A lich with a broken phylactery remains upright and mobile, but his next death will be his last.

Contingent True Resurrection if your phylactery gets destroyed, then repeat the lichification process?

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-06-20, 01:05 PM

Because it has a crappy Will Save and if someone's strong enough to find and break your phylactery they're probably strong enough to dominate the tarrasque and use it against you.There's nothing that says you can't buff the heck out of it to shore up its weaknesses and enhance its strengths after you dominate it yourself.

See, here's the problem. Everyone is coming up with contingencies for what to do when the heroes find and destroy your phylactery. And that's fine, it's an excellent exercise in spite, and I get that.

My logic is this: Why have a phylactery if you plan for it being destroyed? Wouldn't it be better to ensure that it can't or won't be destroyed?

So your phylactery drops lava on a kingdom if destroyed. That's good, that's fine, but the kingdom can be evacuated. The heroes have found the phylactery, only a matter of time before they break it.

So your phylactery unleashes a monster if destroyed. That's nice, bunch of dead heroes who destroyed your phylactery, but it doesn't change the fact that your phylactery is gone.

If I must have a phylactery, I'd much prefer that it remain intact, thanks.Oh, there's nothing saying you can't make it unfindable and unreachable and unbreakable, but if the worst happens, at least you can have your revengeance. Those pesky humans are always finding ways to do the impossible, after all. You might as well have the last laugh if it comes down to it. Plus, if you're still alive and they do destroy your phylactery, not only will they get their final comeuppance, but they'll be far less likely to come after you once they've destroyed your soul-hidey-thingy™.

After that, there are several other ways to ensure that if you die, you won't have any real problems. Layers upon layers of contingencies, and not just the magical kind.

Flickerdart

2016-06-20, 01:38 PM

Contingent True Resurrection if your phylactery gets destroyed, then repeat the lichification process?

That plan is built on cosmologically shaky ground. For one, true resurrection strongly implies that the person you get back is the pre-undead version. In the case of the lich, that's potentially centuries of knowledge and power wiped out in an instant, pretty much the same as dying.

Willie the Duck

2016-06-20, 01:39 PM

Yep. Spite and revenge on those who destroyed his phylactery. My question is, why wouldn't you trap the tarrasque in your phylactery?

But what's better than revenge on those who destroyed your phylactery? Them not destroying it in the first place, which would be accomplished (potentially) if they knew about it bringing about a doomsday scenario.

Of course, liches are not the most mentally stable. Perhaps they really would prefer revenge to survival.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-06-20, 01:47 PM

You can always booby-trap your phylactery and use a summoned creature and a mirror of opposition to duplicate it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse). A single mirror works four times per day, so do that as many times as you want. Keep your original somewhere completely unaccessible, and "hide" the copies in other places, with skillfully planted clues here and there to lead the stalwart "heroes" to one of them. When they destroy it, change your identity to another lich, and do the same with the second copy. Continue doing this as long as need be -- assuming that the DM fate has it out for you, anyway.

Lord Vukodlak

2016-06-20, 02:25 PM

Where does it actually say you show up next to your phylactery?

Per the monster's description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm):

Does it say "a lich reappears next to its phylactery 1d10 days after its apparent death"? Nope. It just says the Lich reappears. The phylactery anchors the Lich to the world of the living, but nowhere does it say that the Lich is anchored to the phylactery.

Various supplement material indicates he appears near by. For example In Libras Mortis a Lich whose phylactery became lodged in the stomach of a Kraken kept regenerating on the ocean floor after numerous failed attempts to kill it and take it back.

Esprit15

2016-06-20, 02:27 PM

I recall someone discussing putting his demilich's phylactery at the end of a demiplane, then expanding the plane to be infinite in size.

Inevitability

2016-06-20, 03:09 PM

I recall someone discussing putting his demilich's phylactery at the end of a demiplane, then expanding the plane to be infinite in size.

Greater Teleport would let you cross the infinite distance to the phylactery.

Feldar

2016-06-20, 03:29 PM

Step one: Make your phylactery.
Step two: Cast Harden and other buffs on it. Make sure that divinations against your phylactery are blocked, even against deities, as much as possible.
Step three: Use Nystul's magic aura to make it appear magically as you need it to.
Step four: Hide the phylactery in the most precious relic of the most powerful faith on the planet, as an integral part of the phylactery. (If time travel is an option, time travel back to before the item became a relic. Otherwise, some ingenuity may be required.)
Step five: Help the church buff up the magical defenses on the church's vault. Obviously this will require some ingenuity on your part, but at worst a large and anonymous donation for that specific purpose should cover it. You do have a good cover identity, right?
Step six: Convince the church that there is an evil plot that requires the relic as a ritual component that will bring great evil on the world. No magic required if you are creative -- just splash a little gold around on really good forgeries that can be found by the church's representatives. (They need to be forgeries cause badness forbid that you have actual bad guys knowing about the "ritual" and managing to take your phylactery out of the vault. Again, time travel is a real help here if it's an option...).

This should pretty much guarantee that it never gets destroyed since you've just turned the church of Pelor/Heironeous/whatever into the phylactery's staunchest defenders because they believe that if they fail the world will end...the faithful will sacrifice their own lives to prevent its destruction. Orders of Knighthood will be founded to preserve the integrity of your phylactery! Indiana Jones will one day hunt down your phylactery and use it to save his father's life!

Feldar

Rijan_Sai

2016-06-20, 04:23 PM

That plan is built on cosmologically shaky ground. For one, true resurrection strongly implies that the person you get back is the pre-undead version. In the case of the lich, that's potentially centuries of knowledge and power wiped out in an instant, pretty much the same as dying.

I am curious as to where you see that?
True Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm)

True Resurrection
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 9
Casting Time: 10 minutes

This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method).

Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of level (or Constitution points) or prepared spells.

You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.

Even true resurrection can’t restore to life a creature who has died of old age.

Material Component

A sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth a total of at least 25,000 gp.

and Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm)

Raise Dead

Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

You restore life to a deceased creature. You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than one day per caster level. In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.

Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means. A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised, in addition to losing spells for losing a level. A spellcasting creature that doesn’t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell, in addition to losing spell slots for losing a level.

A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current Hit Dice. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.

A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age.

Material Component

Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp.

The only differences that I can see are the casting time and material component costs (not important for this discussion), the length of time a person can be dead before casting, the level/Con loss in RD does not occur in TR, and TR can bring back Undead. Now yes, the Undead must be destroyed before the spell can be cast on it, but it doesn't say (or even imply, as far as I can see) that the resurrected one comes back as their pre-undead self.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-06-20, 04:37 PM

I am curious as to where you see that?
True Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm)

and Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm)

The only differences that I can see are the casting time and material component costs (not important for this discussion), the length of time a person can be dead before casting, the level/Con loss in RD does not occur in TR, and TR can bring back Undead. Now yes, the Undead must be destroyed before the spell can be cast on it, but it doesn't say (or even imply, as far as I can see) that the resurrected one comes back as their pre-undead self.Perhaps he was thinking of the clone spell?

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-20, 04:43 PM

Esprit15

2016-06-20, 05:35 PM

Greater Teleport would let you cross the infinite distance to the phylactery.

How will you know what the place looks like?

HolyDraconus

2016-06-20, 06:59 PM

How can a lich that becomes human become a lich again?

atemu1234

2016-06-20, 07:16 PM

Xanyo

2016-06-20, 07:53 PM

Use that spell that splits your phylactery into lots of pieces. Polymorph any object one of the pieces into an especially adorable little elan girl, and ensure she remains a little girl (both in body and in mind) without aging. She's immortal, and anyone trying to destroy her...well...

Well, at this point, I'm hoping you can cast epic spells. If so, create a species that has an infinite lifespan and is hard to kill, humanoid, preferably handsome/beautiful/cute and ALWAYS LG. Polymorph all of the shards into these creatures, integrate them into society as loyal, trusted friends that make great allies. When you make them, implant an aversion to willing death, so they WILL try to save themselves. Make them breed quickly, in case the bloodline thing works. Now, when(and if) the party discovers what your phylactery is, they will have to kill the people most likely to help them defeat you. You will also know when they attempt the genocide, so you can pop over to one of the other planes where you've done this. Try to make sure your new species can spread through the planes.

Bad luck trying to exterminate them. Heheheh.

Segev

2016-06-21, 12:47 AM

Why have a phylactery if you plan for it being destroyed? Wouldn't it be better to ensure that it can't or won't be destroyed?

If I must have a phylactery, I'd much prefer that it remain intact, thanks.This is why making a well-loved, prolific, good and noble dynasty your phylactery works so well. The heroes, if they figure it out early, will be faced with the moral quandary of slaughtering a beloved ruler and his children, when he has done nothing wrong and his nation-state is peaceful, prosperous, and well-run by him. They'd be putting an end to a noble family truly worthy of the adjective, and potentially plunging a wonderful kingdom into chaos.

The further forward in time it goes before heroes figure it out, the more of an atrocity they will have to commit to destroy your phylactery. Even better for you (because even the most intelligent people will inevitably make enemies of others of a...pragmatic...bent), even those willing to do the deed to get to you will have an increasingly hard time achieving it. More and more legitimate progeny in the spreading branches of the growing family tree... just FINDING all the bastards (and some of them literal, hidden in the general population) will be hard. Eventually, so much of the world's population may be your phylactery that the very people who want to destroy it will count themselves as part of it!

Few are self-sacrificing enough to destroy themselves AND willing to commit a genocide. Fewer still have the means. And if they miss even one...well, maybe you'll have to nurture that "chosen one" to a position where (s)he can spread his (or her) genes far and wide (and yes, this'll be harder with a girl), but you can certainly do it!

They explicitly can't, as discussed in Libris Mortis. A lich with a broken phylactery remains upright and mobile, but his next death will be his last.
What's the page reference on that? I don't recall seeing it.

Though personally, I prefer keeping lichdom as a fallback. My phylactery is complete, but I have stalled the ritual at the point where the last step is my death. So I get killed, and I immediately become a lich. This is irritating, but at least I'm still active. Getting back to life is a pain, though, and often requires re-creating the phylactery, depending on the method. And that's so time-consuming and expensive! (And has a tendency to offend heroes, what with the unspeakably evil act required as part of the creation of it. Why, it's so evil, I won't even speak of it!)

Inevitability

2016-06-21, 05:56 AM

How will you know what the place looks like?

Hypercognition to deduce the phylactery's location, perhaps?

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-21, 07:42 AM

Make GitP your phylactery. No hero will ever want to destroy it.

Strigon

2016-06-21, 07:51 AM

This is why making a well-loved, prolific, good and noble dynasty your phylactery works so well. The heroes, if they figure it out early, will be faced with the moral quandary of slaughtering a beloved ruler and his children, when he has done nothing wrong and his nation-state is peaceful, prosperous, and well-run by him. They'd be putting an end to a noble family truly worthy of the adjective, and potentially plunging a wonderful kingdom into chaos.

The further forward in time it goes before heroes figure it out, the more of an atrocity they will have to commit to destroy your phylactery. Even better for you (because even the most intelligent people will inevitably make enemies of others of a...pragmatic...bent), even those willing to do the deed to get to you will have an increasingly hard time achieving it. More and more legitimate progeny in the spreading branches of the growing family tree... just FINDING all the bastards (and some of them literal, hidden in the general population) will be hard. Eventually, so much of the world's population may be your phylactery that the very people who want to destroy it will count themselves as part of it!

Few are self-sacrificing enough to destroy themselves AND willing to commit a genocide. Fewer still have the means. And if they miss even one...well, maybe you'll have to nurture that "chosen one" to a position where (s)he can spread his (or her) genes far and wide (and yes, this'll be harder with a girl), but you can certainly do it!

I'm really curious as to how you think the genetic phylactery would work; that's just not how reproduction works.
Granted, it does make a pretty awesome plot point, so Rule 0 can apply.

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-21, 07:56 AM

How can a lich that becomes human become a lich again?

You just go through the same process you went through last time to become a lich?

If you're resurrected as a human, then you're a living creature again and qualify for the template (because it's no longer applied to you). You might have to do stuff slightly differently because "each ritual is unique" or whatever, but RAW there's no reason you can't template cycle.

SorenKnight

2016-06-21, 11:10 AM

Step 1. Kill powerful, preferably unaging, entity. Cast Soul Bind.

Step 2. Make your phylactery include both parts from the body (bone or skin) and the soul gem itself.

Step 3. PaO the gem back into the original creature.

Step 4. Cast Modify Memory to make it believe it escaped of its own volition.

Whenever you die you reform as a dark voice in the back of the creature's brain, retake control of it and, of course, delete all memory of that ever happening after you reform.

The major problem with the plan is that the best creatures to make your phylactery are also the hardest to kill in the first place. For this reason you are best off using someone who becomes more powerful over time, such as a dragon or adventurer, or using someone the most amount of people don't want to kill.

Psyren

2016-06-21, 01:50 PM

@ "grain of sand" and "entire planet" phylacteries - are we ignoring Libris Mortis?

The phylactery of a lich usually takes the form of a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment bearing magical phrases. The phylactery can exist in other forms as well, though it must either contain or bear an arcane inscription. Regardless of the phylactery’s form, its game statistics remain the same: size Tiny, hp 40, hardness 20, break DC 40.

No matter what you use as your phylactery, it will be Tiny. Whether this means you can't use a grain of sand, or whether it means you can but that grain of sand will grow to the size of a housecat and need to bear on arcane inscription, is not specified, but the D&D stats at least are clear.

Flickerdart

2016-06-21, 02:01 PM

@ "grain of sand" and "entire planet" phylacteries - are we ignoring Libris Mortis?
No, we're not (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20903546&postcount=44).

Psyren

2016-06-21, 03:46 PM

No, we're not (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20903546&postcount=44).

You're certainly not, but it seems several other folks are.

Esprit15

2016-06-21, 04:13 PM

Hypercognition to deduce the phylactery's location, perhaps?

It doesn't bypass any divination countermeasures, since we are only talking about location, not any spells or such.

But, ignoring that, it would kind of become DM fiat at that point, since I don't think there's a DC for a check of "Know which option in a literal infinity of equally probable options is the most likely." Even knowing that it is at the end of the plane doesn't help, since even being one arcsecond off in your coordinates calculated in hypercognition would have you infinitely off of your target.

Segev

2016-06-21, 04:49 PM

I'm really curious as to how you think the genetic phylactery would work; that's just not how reproduction works.
Granted, it does make a pretty awesome plot point, so Rule 0 can apply.

I outlined it in an earlier post, but the crux of it is dependent on how the setting explains lineage/bloodline/heritage/childbirth. If it's real-world genetics, you're mostly rule-0ing a modified version of the phylactery. If it's some sort of "life essence" thing, it remains viable because it's the bloodline and lineage more than a specific pattern of DNA that represents it.

If you're sticking to the "it must be a cat-sized object with X hit points" rules, then it doesn't work, either, unfortunately.

Caedes

2016-06-21, 05:13 PM

As for using polymorph any object to make a little girl, any sensible person wouldn't care, the little girl isn't real, has no soul, and is literally just a magical effect. It'd be like killing a simulacrum or an ice assassin.

Yes if it is just a little girl they just met. But instead. Let's say the lich is a lvl 15 encounter. And the little girl was their level 1 plot hook. And they have spent all their levels protecting this innocent girl. She might have during this time even became the adopted daughter of the paladin, or earnest student of the monk.

The sweetest of destruction, is when you have to destroy something you have learned to love. And then lo and behold. They learn the phylactery was split into many parts. And all the parts are the little girl. They have to relive the destruction of something they loved, over and over and over again.

:D

Rizban

2016-06-21, 05:14 PM

I've always been a fan of The Dream of Metal, though it takes psionics to pull off. So, our lich would have to be a Cerebremancer (+Thrallherd for extra brokenness).

Gather a number of devoted followers, preferably warforged, due to their immortality, and preferably your Thrallherd believers, who are psychically bound to you. Have them reduce their hit points to fit within the 30 individual hp and 300 cumulative hp maximum, then manifest microcosm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm), forcing them all into a semi-lucid dreamlike state. Duration is instantaneous, so it can't be dispelled or canceled easily.

Then, using the Dream Walk spell [HoH 129], drag their unconscious bodies into the dream itself, depositing your phylactory somewhere within the dream. The dream is constructed of the shared unconscious of your believers, which you can modify as you wish with your powers, giving you a more or less completely morphic pseudo-plane under your control.

To enter the dream, you need to cast Dream Walk, which requires being able to see one of the dreamers. It's note a plane, so you can't plane shift there. With all of the dreamers having been physically transported into the dream itself, there is no longer any method by which to enter it.

Assuming you use the interpretation that the lich reforms in the vicinity of his phylactory, he can enter the dream anytime he wishes by simply destroying himself. :smalltongue: Assuming he's destroyed against his will, he is unreachable and untouchable and has as much time as he needs to buff up or simply outlive his aggressors in a pseudo-plane under his absolute dominion before returning to the Material to continue where he left off.

Strigon

2016-06-21, 09:38 PM

I outlined it in an earlier post, but the crux of it is dependent on how the setting explains lineage/bloodline/heritage/childbirth. If it's real-world genetics, you're mostly rule-0ing a modified version of the phylactery. If it's some sort of "life essence" thing, it remains viable because it's the bloodline and lineage more than a specific pattern of DNA that represents it.

If you're sticking to the "it must be a cat-sized object with X hit points" rules, then it doesn't work, either, unfortunately.

See, when I read the earlier post, I thought you meant your phylactery was DNA. By the time I realized the issues with that, it was no longer relevant.
I do like the idea, though, of a Lich putting part of his soul into an entire dynasty.

You know, people around here have tossed about the idea of a moon or planet being your phylactery, and that's been shot down, but I have been rewatching Doctor Who.
There is an episode in which it's revealed that the centre of the Earth - the very centre; the original thing that pulled all the other bits of rock in to form our planet - was an alien spaceship.

If you put your phylactery in a suitably protective container, I can think of few ways to better shield it than by surrounding it on all sides with a planet.

Segev

2016-06-22, 12:29 AM

In some settings, the sun is actually something like a rift to the elemental plane of fire (suitably large or to a suitably hot portion thereof). Craft your (tiny sized) phylactery into such a rift, and use your supremely terrifying magics to snuff out the existing sun, only to replace it with your phylactery. In order to destroy your phylactery, they must now be powerful enough to do so AND have a plan to replicate your feat of creating an artificial sun, lest they wipe out all life on their world (save that which can survive without the sun's warmth on any level, and never needs interaction with anything that does depend on the sun for its survival).

Bohandas

2016-06-22, 01:36 AM

This is why making a well-loved, prolific, good and noble dynasty your phylactery works so well. The heroes, if they figure it out early, will be faced with the moral quandary of slaughtering a beloved ruler and his children, when he has done nothing wrong and his nation-state is peaceful, prosperous, and well-run by him. They'd be putting an end to a noble family truly worthy of the adjective, and potentially plunging a wonderful kingdom into chaos.

The further forward in time it goes before heroes figure it out, the more of an atrocity they will have to commit to destroy your phylactery. Even better for you (because even the most intelligent people will inevitably make enemies of others of a...pragmatic...bent), even those willing to do the deed to get to you will have an increasingly hard time achieving it. More and more legitimate progeny in the spreading branches of the growing family tree... just FINDING all the bastards (and some of them literal, hidden in the general population) will be hard. Eventually, so much of the world's population may be your phylactery that the very people who want to destroy it will count themselves as part of it!

Few are self-sacrificing enough to destroy themselves AND willing to commit a genocide. Fewer still have the means. And if they miss even one...well, maybe you'll have to nurture that "chosen one" to a position where (s)he can spread his (or her) genes far and wide (and yes, this'll be harder with a girl), but you can certainly do it!

Well, that's the kind of situation where you wind up gettig thrown into Carceri or the Wells of Darkness or whatever.

And in any case they got Voldemort's soul out of Harry Potter, so why not generic NPC licn's out of generic good guy