New DM Creating Campaign Seeking Feedback

[zlator]

Hi all,

This is my first post. I have been a fan of DnD for over a decade, but I took a LOONG hiatus while in college and starting my career. I decided to jump back into it with some work buddies. I'll try to be as concise as possible to keep this post short.

Group Experience
Me (DM) - This is my first DM experience. I played as a PC for a few years, but that was a long time ago.
PCs (4) - First-timers

Game Timing (IRL)
Scheduled to begin late fall 2016, so I have a bit of time.

General Campaign Info
I plan to use existing modules (at least to begin with) as main quests that are linked together by a main, overarching plot/theme/villain. I also plan to insert many random mini-hooks for sidequests (to keep things from being railroaded).

Campaign Plot
Begin game with a Commoner being hanged at the order of the local Mayor - witnessed by the PCs. The crime - creating and hiding enchanted/poisonous apples in the local produce. The day following, another poisonous apple appears, thus beginning the first quest - a slightly altered Sunless Citadel. The main villain will be the loved one of the hanged Commoner, now hellbent on choosing the destiny of others as they have done to his lover - becomes a Mindbender. The Mindbender villain will enthrall/dominate those of power with malicious intent (think high Priest turns evil). Subsequent "Main Quests" will be additional premade modules that follow the theme of the game.

Map
I plan to use a map that I created using donjon and tailoring the names of the cities in the modules to match the map. I have browsed Cartographer's Guild and found some glorious maps, but all seem to be too large for my intended Campaign.

Please provide feedback on anything and everything.

[Honest Tiefling]

Okay, keep in mind, I have never played Sunless Citadel, but trying my best here.


Campaign Plot
Begin game with a Commoner being hanged at the order of the local Mayor - witnessed by the PCs.

Why? As in, why do the PCs hang around to care? Are they outright told that watching executions is a pastime in this region? This will probably cause a great amount of values dissonance, because most modern people don't watch executions for funsies. I am not trying to diss your players, but this is an aspect of roleplaying that is both hard and uncomfortable and many people don't enjoy it. And how would the players be aware this is an acceptable way to spend an afternoon in this culture?

Furthermore, what prevents them from wandering off? An entertained (Or sorrowful, or angry) crowd is a distracted one. Got sleight of hand? Of course they don't, they've earned these coins legally, officer. What if they want to nibble on some food offered at the execution? Or go somewhere else in the town?

Or worse yet, get the wrong idea about this whole affair and try to rescue or help the prisoner? Basically, how are you going to make sure the players pay attention to the hook?


The crime - creating and hiding enchanted/poisonous apples in the local produce. The day following, another poisonous apple appears, thus beginning the first quest - a slightly altered Sunless Citadel.

I'm a little confused how that leads to the campaign, so can you explain how?


The main villain will be the loved one of the hanged Commoner, now hellbent on choosing the destiny of others as they have done to his lover - becomes a Mindbender. The Mindbender villain will enthrall/dominate those of power with malicious intent (think high Priest turns evil). Subsequent "Main Quests" will be additional premade modules that follow the theme of the game.

What if they agree with this guy, or run away? Also, what happens if during one of the encounters with the villain, the players want to kill the villain?

[zlator]

Thank you for this honest critique. Being as this is my first attempt at creating a Campaign, there are obviously many (as you have pointed out) flaws with the idea. I'll try to address some of your points as best as I can to see if this is even plausible.


Okay, keep in mind, I have never played Sunless Citadel, but trying my best here.

To start, Sunless Citadel is a module for lvl 1 characters. The plot of the quest is for the PC's to investigate the appearance of magical apples (one that provides health and vigor, the other that takes the same away - I may change this such that it is only the negative side-effect). There are rumors that these apples are created at the Sunless Citadel, which is a mysterious place that has not been investigated for quite some time. The last time it was, the travelers disappeared altogether. After exploring the citadel, the PCs find that the apples are actually being made by an evil man named Belak with an enchanted tree.

I tried to insert the Commoner as a scapegoat for the Mayor. The town has been disgruntled with the fact that there have been no answers to all the questions pertaining to the apples, and he is trying to win back the people by taking action (even though it is incorrect).


Why? As in, why do the PCs hang around to care? Are they outright told that watching executions is a pastime in this region? This will probably cause a great amount of values dissonance, because most modern people don't watch executions for funsies. I am not trying to diss your players, but this is an aspect of roleplaying that is both hard and uncomfortable and many people don't enjoy it. And how would the players be aware this is an acceptable way to spend an afternoon in this culture?

Furthermore, what prevents them from wandering off? An entertained (Or sorrowful, or angry) crowd is a distracted one. Got sleight of hand? Of course they don't, they've earned these coins legally, officer. What if they want to nibble on some food offered at the execution? Or go somewhere else in the town?

Or worse yet, get the wrong idea about this whole affair and try to rescue or help the prisoner? Basically, how are you going to make sure the players pay attention to the hook?

The PC's are not obligated to stay for the execution, but considering the Mayor's actions to try and "fix" the town's poison apple problem, the entire town gathers to watch.... Not as a spectacle, but for a sense of closure. If the PCs choose NOT to stick around (or occupy themselves with distracted folk's pockets), they will still overhear the chatter of the town regarding the hanging, given that it was such a huge disturbance within the town for years.

If the players choose to side with the Commoner, obviously the entire campaign will be changed. They may befriend this Commoner, who slowly becomes more obsessed with controlling those that wronged him (and will likely get roped into some quests to help him). The commoner will likely want to understand what the actual source of the apples was and they will have a hook that way. Everything else to follow will be drastically different.


I'm a little confused how that leads to the campaign, so can you explain how?

Given the build-up of the poisonous apples within the town and the "solution", when another person falls victim after-the-fact, the town will be in an uproar. The players may choose to work with the Mayor to calm the town down, or side with the villain.


What if they agree with this guy, or run away? Also, what happens if during one of the encounters with the villain, the players want to kill the villain?

If they choose to go against the villain, my plan is that they will not really encounter him until the end. They will encounter his dominated subjects that are causing a ruckus in other areas of the region. Each one will give a clue as to WHO is actually behind it all.



Now that I'm considering this more in-depth, it seems as though the players will have a higher probability of siding with the Commoner. Could throw quite the wrench into things. Back to the drawing board. Do you have any suggestions?

[Gildedragon]

Don't start with the execution.
Start with a commotion in the market. A someone stealing an apple from somebody else, and then keeling over dead in the market.
The apple vendor is under suspicion, throws themself at the PCs feet for aid.
The vendor might be the person who is letting them stay in their house...

A sort of quiet panic in the town. Similar food poisonings happened some time ago... The culprit was never found but they hung someone anyways. Is it the old killer or a new one?

Think for a motive for the old killings.
There might be two batches of poisoned apples in circulation: revenge apples (standard poison) and magic apples (magic poison)

Motive idea for some of the original killings: cleric with a sort of hero syndrome or the like. They can't heal very well (violated the code of conduct, perhaps, or lacking in Faith...) relying on alchemy and Heal to treat patients.
Wants to be the big hero so he spreads a "plague" he can cure... The apples.
Too bad he misplaced them or miscalculated how toxic they were, or how easy the poison rubbed off to other fruit in the stall...

He stayed quiet when they dragged off some undesirable to the noose several years back.

[zlator]

Ah, fantastic idea. THIS is why I wanted to post and ask for help. I knew the hook needed work. This should work fantastically at allowing me to fill in back story and get the players interested.

The beginning aside, how does the rest (albeit a general idea) sound?

[Gildedragon]

It sounds okay but the plot needs work.
As for distances: this sounds very local. A village map and a map of the surrounding areas. Probably not more than say, a region in any west European country, or a small USA state

[Honest Tiefling]

Don't start with the execution.
Start with a commotion in the market. A someone stealing an apple from somebody else, and then keeling over dead in the market.

Quick, to the point, and an immediate sense of both danger and purpose. I like this, so I am backing this. As a kicker, you could have the PCs be given apples or cider at the inn before this...

And please note, I am not trying to rip your ideas. I just believe that if you plan out 5 scenarios based on what the party will do, they'll come up with 10 more. I don't think the plan is flawed (I actually don't think you should toss out the execution scene. The players might still want to watch or support someone watching.), I just think that predicting players is very hard and the most you have planned, the better. The more you know about the villians, the easier it is to react when they invariably throw a wrench into your plans.

[zlator]

Thank you both. I have another, more general question. Should I loosely plan the key plot points at the beginning and focus heavily on fully fleshing out a rolling 4-5 sessions in advance, or should I try and flesh the entire main plot out fully from the get-go? I feel like I shouldn't fill in ALL the gaps before even starting the campaign, because I will either try to railroad them or potentially lose a lot of time and effort if they choose to go a different way with things.

A little background about me may help. I'm an engineer, very linear minded and lacking in creativity - hence the wanting to use existing modules. Part of me wants to get crazy detailed, but another part of me knows that **** could hit the fan at any moment.

Is there any place on this forum (or otherwise) where others have logged their campaign plots to help draw inspiration?

[Honest Tiefling]

1). Plan out what happens if the PCs don't interfere from beginning to end. Know what the threats will be doing. This will help, trust me. You should probably have some things fleshed out other then that, but that's a great starting point. And don't have too many pointless combat encounters, but if you are ever against a wall, light everything on fire. You sorta have to respond to that quickly, and it can help you delay to get a moment to breathe. You always have the right to take a snack breack/smoke break/tea break for 10 minutes.

2). Many people have posted campaign logs. Here's one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?116836-The-SilverClawShift-Campaign-Archives) and here's another. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325177-Cattle-Driving-Necromancers-Bizarre-Campaign-Journal)

[Pugwampy]

Okay you say you are first time DM and your players are also doing this for the first time too . This whole set up seems a bit complicated for first timers . Dont get me wrong it all sounds awesome but perhaps you should all get a bit of experience first ?

Your average basic game will just have players sitting in a tavern introducing and shaking each others hands and then finding "work" or being approached by a someone in need . They head off to a one room dungeon and fight 2 goblins , 2 skeletons or 2 kobolds . Do what they needed to do , explore the room , open a treasure chest and head back to the tavern .

Slowly build up your campaign from there ?

[zlator]

Okay, so I have sat down some more to understand the scope of my campaign - and specifically the motivations behind the BBEG.

As of now (I should mention that this is subject to change) the plan is for the game to start in the market, where all of the PCs are gathering food for their next adventure (Only for plot purposes. I do not plan to manage the campaign to that detail). A commotion stirs, of which is another townsperson falling victim to a poison apple (thank you Guigarci). This causes chaos in the town, which believed the curse of the poisoned apples to be gone after the last hanging, nearly 6 months prior. This prompts the Mayor to release ANOTHER statement, blaming the (now) only produce merchant for supplying the apples. He states that she, too, is to be executed in three weeks' time unless evidence is brought forth proving her innocence. Enough is enough.

The merchant approaches the PCs, knowing that they are from out of town and appear to be adventurers, and pleads with them to help her prove her innocence. Meanwhile, the mayor approaches them for another reason.... Find the problem and make it go away (with promise of rewards) as it is ruining his reputation and he fears an uprising will mount if it continues. Upon asking around, the PCs learn of the history of the poison apples, the previous execution, about both of the merchants, motivations of the mayor, the grieving lover of the last hanging, and the location of the citadel. The only critical bit that they need to know is the location of the citadel, the other information just helps tell the story - if they miss the information, it will come to them in another avenue later.

As they conquer the sunless citadel, they learn of the failed cleric (thank you again Guigarci) that is behind the poison apples in the first place - deviation from the module.

Meanwhile, the grieving lover begins to mount his revenge on the town, specifically the Head Guardsman, who carried out the execution. He plans to do this by controlling various aspects of their lives through fear: The fear of monsters snatching away loved ones as it happened to him. The fear of feeling nothing but cold inside. The fear of being helpless, living under a power that can do whatever it wants, when it wants.

The BBEG dominates the general of a nearby orc (suggestions on something else?) army that begins terrorizing the town by capturing people at night.

Then the BBEG dominates the Arch Mage, who terrorizes the town by nearly freezing the city.

Then the BBEG dominates the mayor, who excites martial law on the town and becomes ruthless.

Finally, the BBEG beguiles the High Priest into resurrecting his loved one... But something goes wrong, and she becomes partially undead. He kills the High Priest in a rage and commands her to raise an army to finish off the town.

Final battle is fighting the BBEG, his undead lady, and her army.

I'm hoping for this campaign to last to maybe level 12-15, though I have no judgement of how long it will actually be. As long as the PCs stay engaged and entertained...


Okay you say you are first time DM and your players are also doing this for the first time too . This whole set up seems a bit complicated for first timers . Dont get me wrong it all sounds awesome but perhaps you should all get a bit of experience first ?

Your average basic game will just have players sitting in a tavern introducing and shaking each others hands and then finding "work" or being approached by a someone in need . They head off to a one room dungeon and fight 2 goblins , 2 skeletons or 2 kobolds . Do what they needed to do , explore the room , open a treasure chest and head back to the tavern .

Slowly build up your campaign from there ?

I plan to spoon-feed them information at the beginning and be gentle when they forget to listen/spot/converse/etc.

[Florian]

@ziator:

Discard the campaign start for a moment.

Talk to your players about what is expected of them first. Tell them that they are the heroes here and what heroes ought to do in a situation. Tell them about taking responsibility instead of calling in the cops and CSI team. Instill with them the sense that the game world is fragile and will break down when threatened, that there´re no authorities to have your back on this one.

You want them to follow all plot hooks by themselves and enjoy actually doing so.

As a first-time-dm, think about the emotional reward as big part of the game with first-time players and you can get the game going then.

[zlator]

@ziator:

Discard the campaign start for a moment.

Talk to your players about what is expected of them first. Tell them that they are the heroes here and what heroes ought to do in a situation. Tell them about taking responsibility instead of calling in the cops and CSI team. Instill with them the sense that the game world is fragile and will break down when threatened, that there´re no authorities to have your back on this one.

You want them to follow all plot hooks by themselves and enjoy actually doing so.

As a first-time-dm, think about the emotional reward as big part of the game with first-time players and you can get the game going then.

I've introduced them to the YouTube series "Critical Role" (I hope they don't expect me to be anywhere close to as good as Matt Mercer, though). That is a really good idea, though, clearly explaining what their role is in this world and what will happen if they don't act.

[Pugwampy]

@ziator:

Discard the campaign start for a moment.

Talk to your players about what is expected of them first. Tell them that they are the heroes here and what heroes ought to do in a situation. Tell them about taking responsibility instead of calling in the cops and CSI team. Instill with them the sense that the game world is fragile and will break down when threatened, that there´re no authorities to have your back on this one.



I have to disagree . This is a do what you want game being the hero is one possible option . A hub town should have "cops" to call upon and players should have that option if they are in town as well as a deterrent to them pillaging and looting .

[Mr Booze]

Don't be pressured into something, I feel the people on this board are sometimes too critical. These players are new, and if they are anything like my new players you will have to point them in some direction and a little railroad is absolutely no problem at the start. Your plan with the market sounds great!

As for the sunless citadel itself, there are a lot of tips around the internet. I highly recommend user ksbsnowowls campaign journal on minmaxboards .Dot. com (can't post links yet), which is less a story (as in like a book) but has very valuable insights behind the DM screen in terms of rules, CR etc.:




I would also recommend the Angry GM! Just read his entries on how to write an adventure and how to run combat like a dolphin escpecially :smallbiggrin:

[Florian]

I have to disagree . This is a do what you want game being the hero is one possible option . A hub town should have "cops" to call upon and players should have that option if they are in town as well as a deterrent to them pillaging and looting .

It´s more about the narrative and motivation.

You want your players to go for the offered plot hooks and you want to avoid discussions about why the city/country/army/Elminster doesn´t handle the threat when it comes up.

Yes, verisimilitude dictates that things should be handled like they could manage themselves, else you´d ask the question why they still exist when monsters abound, leading to the follow-up question of why the characters should actually do it.

Part of it can actually be achieved by dropping the modern mind-set of there being "cops" or a "standing army". Rather, have regular folks make double-duty in those roles, which will make it clear that the will be able to defend the community as a whole, but the losses they suffer doing so are still deep and very personal.

For example, read up on Machiavellis History of Florence. The craftsmen guilds were also the forces of arms and formed up the "color companies". So "Red Flag" are the carpenters, forming up a company of axe fighters in wartime, which still means any of the dead is a dead carpenter, not a "cop" or "soldier".

[zlator]

It´s more about the narrative and motivation.

You want your players to go for the offered plot hooks and you want to avoid discussions about why the city/country/army/Elminster doesn´t handle the threat when it comes up.

Yes, verisimilitude dictates that things should be handled like they could manage themselves, else you´d ask the question why they still exist when monsters abound, leading to the follow-up question of why the characters should actually do it.

Part of it can actually be achieved by dropping the modern mind-set of there being "cops" or a "standing army". Rather, have regular folks make double-duty in those roles, which will make it clear that the will be able to defend the community as a whole, but the losses they suffer doing so are still deep and very personal.

The way that I plan to go about encouraging the help of the PCs will go something like this:

For the quest to stop the kidnapping of townsfolk, the guardsmen are working double shifts, patrolling is heightened and they are on high alert. Even still, they simply do not have the resources to both patrol the city, trying to keep the people safe, AND investigate the disappearances. The PCs will be tasked with the investigation.

For the quest of the strange weather patterns and Arctic creatures terrorizing the city, the guards are initially able to fend off the monsters.... But they become increasingly more challenging as time passes/the PCs stay idle. The faster they act, the fewer casualties there will be.

... At least those are my thoughts right now. It should give them a sense of importance and urgency with their choices.

One of the things that I am working on is using a calendar to have defined events occur on certain dates. That should help (in my mind at least) give the world a sense of realism and fragility.

[Pugwampy]

Ummmm why not just wave a gold purse at the PC,s for their help ? Your average new player will look at you with a blank stare . Its great when they take the initiative but dont expect it soon and dont try to force it .

Why give them time to consider anything ? Just have guard walk up to them and say

"HEY YOU LAZY BUMS . DO YOU WANT A JOB ?"

That should get the ball rolling .

[zlator]

Ummmm why not just wave a gold purse at the PC,s for their help ? Your average new player will look at you with a blank stare . Its great when they take the initiative but dont expect it soon and dont try to force it .

Why give them time to consider anything ? Just have guard walk up to them and say

"HEY YOU LAZY BUMS . DO YOU WANT A JOB ?"

That should get the ball rolling .

That's the thing. I'm not sure what is going to motivate them. I would rather throw a lot of hooks at them and see what sticks than just assume they are driven by gold. Who knows, though. It could be that simple... Would be really nice if it is.

[Honest Tiefling]

That's the thing. I'm not sure what is going to motivate them. I would rather throw a lot of hooks at them and see what sticks than just assume they are driven by gold. Who knows, though. It could be that simple... Would be really nice if it is.

You could just sit them down before the game and say 'Hey, here's a hook, I need you to make sure your character would grab onto it to reduce the amount I have to prepare. Since I'm new at this, I'd also appreciate the cooperation, thanks'.

There's nothing wrong with sitting the players down so they can point their characters in the right direction. Especially not for a new DM! Also, you've been showing what I presume is a moderate to high RP campaign to them. Don't assume they'll murderhobo at the first opportunity, see if they want to or get inspired to role play.

[Gildedragon]

Ask the Players for 2-4 motivations or hooks
Stuff like: I am deeply committed to the wellbeing of my family; I got away with [something] many years ago, and am afraid of being found out; I grievously failed at something and am making up for it; I have a sacred vow to uphold; I am seriously in debt and need money... Fast! Etc