High-level TPKs -- are they a thing?

[ClintACK]

The "Early Level TPKs" thread and last week's thread on Making High Level Play like Low Level Play have me wondering.

On paper, in a white room, it looks like D&D 5e gets dramatically less dangerous as the party levels. But I never play high level, so maybe I'm missing something.

The 12th level fighter can leap from an infinite height, land on hard rock, then get up and jog away.

A 17th level fighter -- naked, unbuffed, and not actively defending in any way -- can take a CR:24 Ancient Red Dragon's full claw-claw-bite attack for three rounds. A half-orc barbarian will make the dragon cry while taking no action aside from wiggling his naked butt at the dragon.

A 13th level wizard means you can take a long rest whenever you feel like it in perfect safety (either Magnificent Mansion or Teleport Circle back to their home city and Teleport back to the dungeon in the morning).

A 9th level cleric (5th level if they act fast) means even death is no big deal.



Without house rules and home-brew, do high level parties actually risk death when they face even "deadly" RAW level-appropriate challenges? I get that they can *fail* (to rescue the hostages, to stop a monster from escaping, to discover the dastardly plot...) but do high-level characters actually die in such encounters?

[Zhentarim]

The "Early Level TPKs" thread and last week's thread on Making High Level Play like Low Level Play have me wondering.

On paper, in a white room, it looks like D&D 5e gets dramatically less dangerous as the party levels. But I never play high level, so maybe I'm missing something.

The 12th level fighter can leap from an infinite height, land on hard rock, then get up and jog away.

A 17th level fighter -- naked, unbuffed, and not actively defending in any way -- can take a CR:24 Ancient Red Dragon's full claw-claw-bite attack for three rounds. A half-orc barbarian will make the dragon cry while taking no action aside from wiggling his naked butt at the dragon.

A 13th level wizard means you can take a long rest whenever you feel like it in perfect safety (either Magnificent Mansion or Teleport Circle back to their home city and Teleport back to the dungeon in the morning).

A 9th level cleric (5th level if they act fast) means even death is no big deal.



Without house rules and home-brew, do high level parties actually risk death when they face even "deadly" RAW level-appropriate challenges? I get that they can *fail* (to rescue the hostages, to stop a monster from escaping, to discover the dastardly plot...) but do high-level characters actually die in such encounters?

I'm also curious

[Temperjoke]

I think death is less likely to happen, since higher level characters have more resources to prevent it. It can still happen, but it tends to be more dramatic than a "whoops, that was a bad roll that got me" sort of thing.

[MrStabby]

Yeah, they happen, although some may depend on what you class as high level.

I had two encounters that went south for the party. One a TPK and the other one really close to being one.

Turns out both had a common theme.

First one was an underwater temple. Party triggered a trap that alerted the enemy and triggered a dispell magic spell. With water breathing stripped off half the party they were in trouble, even more so when they couldn't cast spells with verbal components. With no swim speed, limited spell support, half fire damage and a need to get to air it was the remaining one character who made it out alive. Party was level 14.

Second one was an antimagic field that caught the party by surprise. I thought I gave the party a lot of hints that there might be one in place - enemies not casting spells, light cantrip going out, some references in previous lore about antimagic and wild magic zones in the area. They were caught in the middle and nearly made it out but there was a particularly brutal round of damage as they were fleeing and the survivors decided to make a last stand over their fallen comrades. Party was level 16.

[R.Shackleford]

I play a lot of high level one shots and the occasional mini campaign (8 to 10 session).

If the DM plays enemies with brains and doesn't specifically hold back... You can easily get a TPK.

However that same TPK can turn into a curbstomp depending on party make up and choices.

I've seen people who play at levels 1 - 8 become completely lost at higher levels. Not that they couldn't understand their character, they just didn't really understand that the game has changed.

One roll of the dice isn't going to kill you, you are going to kill you. Yeah there are plenty of deadly attacks at high levels but you have plenty of defenses and allies to help you out. About the only class that is absolutely terrible is the Barbarian (Non-Bear) and Fighter (Champion and Battlemaster) since they don't bringnmuch to the party outside of damage. Mitigating HP damage or attacks on AC is the simplest things to do in high level 5e (actually in period) .

Now if a DM is holding back or plays enemies like a level 1 through 8 campaign then I don't think anyone is going to die...

There are some things that are the same in low and high levels but unless you actually play high levels you won't really feel the diffference. I love both tiers of play but low level players are really missing out.

Which is why I adapt high level enemies to fight low level PCs when I teach D&D. I'm sending a Kracken up against 5 Level 4 PCs soon :D.

[Hooligan]

Absolutely.

Character death certainly does.

In the course of one campaign:
- Level 8 barbarian killed when he leaped on a dragon's back to beat it down. The dragon took flight & unceremoniously threw the barbarian off from ~120' altitude & he crashed through the roof of a church to his demise.
-Level 11 paladin (barbarian player's new character) & Level 10 druid killed fighting the same dragon in his lair. We narrowly avoided a TPK; our rogue was the last one conscious & finished it off with a bow shot, then revive the party. He could only reach 2 characters to stabilize them before the others failed their saves. Awesome battle. Poor druid rolled a 1 on his second death save. Tragicomedy.
-Level 13 wizard (barbarian player's 3rd character; god what a good sport) was killed fighting on a ship's deck. We had just fought a nasty battle below deck against a demi-lich of sorts, which drained us. Then we rushed upstairs to stave off his minions who were boarding the deck with aerial support. Wyvern plucked up the wizard and flung him into the sea where the waiting jaws of their shark allies savaged him ala-Temple of Doom.
-Actual TPK. DM preyed on our characters' merciful instincts, baited us into fighting to save an innocent man (we came to find out the BBEG was only bluffing and would not actually have hurt him). The enemy force was a villainous thieves' guild replete with hidden assassins. Assassinate decimated us & we were mopped up. All level 15.

Great campaign.

[Pex]

First one was an underwater temple. Party triggered a trap that alerted the enemy and triggered a dispell magic spell. With water breathing stripped off half the party they were in trouble, even more so when they couldn't cast spells with verbal components. With no swim speed, limited spell support, half fire damage and a need to get to air it was the remaining one character who made it out alive. Party was level 14.


I'm curious of the logic of thought. If one is going to have an underwater adventure, water breathing is obviously essential. It's a flavor text contrivance. In universe it does make sense for a water breathing villain to end the ability of air breathing foes to breathe water, but meta-game having such a trap that can end the water breathing is signing the party's death warrant. I'll grant the Honest True possibility the party could have avoided the problem, but no trap exists without the DM's permission. Purposely placing the trap is purposely putting in a TPK scenario. What if the party did everything right but a most misopportune rolling of too low a number kills the party? A series of unfortunate events leading to a TPK is sad, but that's a game. A one thing "save or TPK" is quite anti-climactic.

[MrStabby]

I'm curious of the logic of thought. If one is going to have an underwater adventure, water breathing is obviously essential. It's a flavor text contrivance. In universe it does make sense for a water breathing villain to end the ability of air breathing foes to breathe water, but meta-game having such a trap that can end the water breathing is signing the party's death warrant. I'll grant the Honest True possibility the party could have avoided the problem, but no trap exists without the DM's permission. Purposely placing the trap is purposely putting in a TPK scenario. What if the party did everything right but a most misopportune rolling of too low a number kills the party? A series of unfortunate events leading to a TPK is sad, but that's a game. A one thing "save or TPK" is quite anti-climactic.

The trap was avoidable, or at least forewarned. It was on the entrance to a treasure room and the party had been told it was trapped. They knew it was the referenced room as they could see the gold through the door. Going into the room was not required to complete the quest.

A successful arcana check would have revealed the glyphs around the door frame to be glyphs of warding. The "arcane symbols carved into the stone of the doorway" were mentioned to the party in the description.

It also has to be said that the trap was only part of the problem. If the party had retreated as soon as the trap was triggered then there would be no difficulty. It was the fact that the party decided to stay and fight the guards that the alarm summoned whilst lacking most of their parties magical support that caused the big problems. The party misjudged their own power and the circumstances they were in and we lost a number of characters.

I won't argue that it could be unfair. To put an unannounced trap in a place with no hope of discovery that would dispell magic, and in a place so deep that the party couldn't hope to get to air would be unfair. I would also say that to put the guards closer so the party would immediately be in combat would be tougher as well (pretty harsh, but only borderline unfair). Possibly wrongly, I think I presented my players with a judgement to make, and whilst they didn't know the full situation (such as how many guards would be summoned by the alarm) they were aware of the basic parameters of the situation and decided not to pull back.

Possibly there was some difference of expectations. I tend to use traps pretty sparingly so maybe players got used to not finding them.

[MrFahrenheit]

What is it with people who enjoy playing barbarians and character death, anyway? :P

At high levels, I feel you're less likely to get a one-encounter tpk, and far more likely to get one after a grueling, rest-less series of encounters. Spell slots and things like maneuver dice will be used up, the chance to trigger situational features like assassinate while you're on the run grows slim, and you run low on hit dice fast...assuming you even get a short rest.

[Hooligan]

Absolutely Fahr.
I like that because it allows the DM & the players to titrate the pace/deadliness to a degree.
Each of my aforementioned scenarios was our 4th-5th encounter of the day (always our choice to engage).

As for the barbarian player he is our endearingly eager young'un who loves taking risks and fortunately for him, also enjoys making new characters lol; though I chalk up the sharks pulling him apart like a mall pretzel to just a bit of bad luck.

[N810]

A high level Disintegrate spell almost killed our Wizard outright , just short a couple of hit points.
This was due to an earlier fight where necro damage lowered his max HP.

[MaxWilson]

A 17th level fighter -- naked, unbuffed, and not actively defending in any way -- can take a CR:24 Ancient Red Dragon's full claw-claw-bite attack for three rounds.

Except, really it's a claw/claw/bite/tail/tail/tail attack routine, which is likely to be a grapple/claw/bite/fly away with fighter/tail/tail/tail routine, after which point it's basically solo fighter vs. solo dragon.

The highest I've seen in play so far is 14th level characters. They didn't TPK against high-level foes but that's partly because they were too intimidated (partly for in-character RP reasons) to engage any of the adult dragons they ran into. The highest-CR things they actually fought and beat were a crashed beholder tyrant ship (beat 3 beholders at once) and a neogi deathspider (fought 24 umber hulks, bunch of neogi, human slaves manning heavy weaponry, and a neogi wizard to a standstill over the course of about four hours of real-time battle; never more than umber hulks on-screen at a time though). They did get a 9th and 10th level PC with a bunch of necromantic skeletons knocked out by about 8 drow warriors and one drow elite warrior--the drow took enough damage in the process that they didn't try to finish off the PCs with the skeletons still guarding them, so one PC (the necromancer) woke up four hours later to find his buddy was now dead. (He got better, long story.)

My experience leads me to believe that TPK'ing high-level parties is imminently possible, depending on the party and how obsessively paranoid they are about risks, and also based on how nasty the DM likes to make his dragons. Even just bolting on five levels of dragon sorcerer to an adult dragon makes it perfectly capable of TPKing the 12th-14th level PCs I've seen. Would it kill an optimized party that easily? No, but the parties I've seen my players create are not that optimized.

So, it depends.

[Hooligan]

A 17th level fighter -- naked, unbuffed, and not actively defending in any way -- can take a CR:24 Ancient Red Dragon's full claw-claw-bite attack for three rounds. A half-orc barbarian will make the dragon cry while taking no action aside from wiggling his naked butt at the dragon.


No dragon would live to be so old & powerful by engaging adventurers in melee combat outside of a last resort or if it knew the odds were overwhelmingly in its favor.

Certainly not unless it had exhausted:
-breath weapons
-flyby attacks
-minions/followers
-magic
-lair resources
-escape, if the above should fail

[R.Shackleford]

No dragon would live to be so old & powerful by engaging adventurers in melee combat outside of a last resort or if it knew the odds were overwhelmingly in its favor.

Certainly not unless it had exhausted:
-breath weapons
-flyby attacks
-escape, if needed
-minions/followers
-magic
-escape, if needed
-lair resources
-escape, if the above should fail

FTFY (fixed that for you) :p haha

[Jarlhen]

In my experience death for a high level party requires one of the following: An effect which evaporates or otherwise removes the players entirely from the world. Disintegrate, lava, something which can't be brought back outside of a Wish spell. Or a TPK. That's it. Revivify is a level 3 spell, so from level 5 and onwards, assuming the cleric doesn't die the party is mostly safe. From that point onward it becomes more and more difficult to die. The final way is if the party has 0 resources, 0 characters able to heal or otherwise lend aid. This, in my experience, is extremely rare but it does happen. So yeah, it's possible but outside of beholders and TPKs it's almost impossible. Almost.

[Baptor]

The trap was avoidable, or at least forewarned. Going into the room was not required to complete the quest.

Yeah, as a DM I play really fair and maybe even err on the side of the party most times as long as the PCs stay on the marked path. Searching unrelated rooms or chasing rumors can lead to unimaginable wonders and treasures, and really unfair encounters and traps.

My players do it everytime. They are cool like that. Usually they still make it.

[MaxWilson]

In my experience death for a high level party requires one of the following: An effect which evaporates or otherwise removes the players entirely from the world. Disintegrate, lava, something which can't be brought back outside of a Wish spell. Or a TPK. That's it. Revivify is a level 3 spell, so from level 5 and onwards, assuming the cleric doesn't die the party is mostly safe. From that point onward it becomes more and more difficult to die. The final way is if the party has 0 resources, 0 characters able to heal or otherwise lend aid. This, in my experience, is extremely rare but it does happen. So yeah, it's possible but outside of beholders and TPKs it's almost impossible. Almost.

Well, either that or a split party. (My players loooove to split the party.)

The aforementioned dragon who grapples a PC and flies off with him/her is likely to result in an un-Revivifiable PC death, for example.

[RickAllison]

I think one of the greatest arguments against high-level TPKs is transportation. All it takes is a good teleportation spell and many threats that would be a TPK can be salvaged (by one person, at least), not to mention the greater access to flight, high speeds, and greater proficiency bonuses.

I did a level 20 one-shot that almost ended in a TPK. The only reason it didn't was due to the party having the capacity to tear down a wall and jump out of the tower. Admittedly, the hell-beast that nearly killed them was still around, but they lived to see the destruction!

[MaxWilson]

I think one of the greatest arguments against high-level TPKs is transportation. All it takes is a good teleportation spell and many threats that would be a TPK can be salvaged (by one person, at least), not to mention the greater access to flight, high speeds, and greater proficiency bonuses.

I did a level 20 one-shot that almost ended in a TPK. The only reason it didn't was due to the party having the capacity to tear down a wall and jump out of the tower. Admittedly, the hell-beast that nearly killed them was still around, but they lived to see the destruction!

This is especially true if you rely on a grindy attrition style ("6-8 encounters per day"). If you build your dramatic tension around uncertainty ("there's still one kobold left, running away down the stone corridor--do you chase him down and kill him?") and surprise (the kobold turns out to be a lich using Disguise Self; or there are twenty more kobolds next door) instead of attrition, then players having more transportation-oriented agency will cease be as powerful. However, their increased access to divination spells and possibilities like Arcane Eye will result in having more information-oriented agency and the ability to avoid surprises/turn ambushes with smart play.

I'd argue that this is a good thing.

(Every once in a while though, it can turn out to be an onion plot, and the ambush they think they are turning was only a setup for the real ambush.)

[R.Shackleford]

Transportation doesn't work on high level games that my group does.

If your transport out, you lost due to plot set up.

Typically hard choices must be made, save the princess from the Balor or save the town from the Terrasque. You win either way and you lose either way. It is about mitigating your losses and reaping what you sow.

Of you can teleport out of an area or teleport out and come back later and you can still meet your goal then you aren't playing a high level campaign. You are playing high level characters in a low level encounter.

The mindset is totally different due to the enemies being totally different.

A low threat hobgoblin can't up and move their entire base of operation while a high threat mage can pick an entirely new plane of existence or make their own demiplane.

Teleport out? Have fun finding this specific Balor, Mage, or whatever else again.

[MrFahrenheit]

As for the barbarian player he is our endearingly eager young'un who loves taking risks and fortunately for him, also enjoys making new characters lol; though I chalk up the sharks pulling him apart like a mall pretzel to just a bit of bad luck.

Hahahaha...aside from the encounter specifics, it's apparent that our barbarians are strikingly similar. Mine's now resolved to only ever play half orcs, regardless of class. The backup to his current assassin/shadow monk is a palabardarian...

[ClintACK]

So, things that have killed higher level characters:
-- Environmental effects (drowning + anti-magic)
-- Dragons outdoors (grapple/fly -- defeat in detail)
-- Sequential encounters without rest
-- Other high level PC-types (This seems obvious, now that you've pointed it out -- if a party of high-level PCs is too powerful for the monsters, put them up against a party of high-level NPCs.)
-- Monsters with added class levels.

Makes sense.

Very different from what can kill at low levels.

So, high-level campaign planning requires a plot reason not to rest -- like a ticking clock. (Or else sequential encounters are easily beaten by high-level logistics.)

And enemies that are either NPCs or at least have class levels -- not just creatures straight out of the Monster Manual.

What else?

[MaxWilson]

So, high-level campaign planning requires a plot reason not to rest -- like a ticking clock. (Or else sequential encounters are easily beaten by high-level logistics.)

And enemies that are either NPCs or at least have class levels -- not just creatures straight out of the Monster Manual.

What else?

I think that "and" should be an "or". If adversaries are high-level themselves, time is not particularly in the PCs' favor and it doesn't matter if they rest. (Ditto for the dragon flyby tactics, etc.)

Other than that: surprise kills. Paladins that aren't in armor when the Intellect Devourer splashes into their bathtub; wizards caught off guard when the Banshee enters their tower and hits their Con save; wizards without Foresight or even Mage Armor up; any PC without the other PCs around; all of these guys are at high risk compared to when the party is formed up and in full-on Voltron Mode.

"Surprise is what happens when something you saw all along turns out to mean something other than what you thought."

But yeah, in general, the MM monsters are pretty lame and dumb and devoid of options. Just look at the Archmage! Of all the 9th level spells they could have given him, the writers picked the single weakest one (Time Stop) in an obvious attempt to keep his CR down. Swap that Time Stop for a Meteor Swarm or Shapechange and now you're cooking with gas. (Let's try a Vampire that is really an Archmage with Dominate Monster and Mass Suggestion prepped!) That doesn't mean you couldn't threaten PCs with MM monsters, but you'd probably have to use large quantities/Deadly encounters to force the PCs to honor the threat. Five Nycaloths instead of just one, for example, all of them cloaked with Darkness and Mirror Image, all prepped with full knowledge of the party's strengths and weaknesses and focusing on isolating and killing the weakest target (e.g. the cleric) before the party's defenses (Rage, Haste, etc.) can come online.

[Pex]

It's not like a DM is supposed to TPK a high level party. He's not even supposed to try. It's no different than a TPK at low level. It's an unfortunate happenstance if it happens, but it's not a should happen and certainly not at any particular percentage as a barometer of game play.

[RickAllison]

Transportation doesn't work on high level games that my group does.

If your transport out, you lost due to plot set up.

Typically hard choices must be made, save the princess from the Balor or save the town from the Terrasque. You win either way and you lose either way. It is about mitigating your losses and reaping what you sow.

Of you can teleport out of an area or teleport out and come back later and you can still meet your goal then you aren't playing a high level campaign. You are playing high level characters in a low level encounter.

The mindset is totally different due to the enemies being totally different.

A low threat hobgoblin can't up and move their entire base of operation while a high threat mage can pick an entirely new plane of existence or make their own demiplane.

Teleport out? Have fun finding this specific Balor, Mage, or whatever else again.

I never said they would get to win :smallwink:

They can win in the sense that they loved to fight another day, but even ordinary scenarios (dungeon crawls, for one) become more difficult if a party runs and tries again later. When they fled, they allowed the remaining forces (and reinforcements) to arrange their forces with in-depth knowledge of the PCs.

When the party first tried to fight a group, their capabilities are rarely known and so the DM creates a dungeon, not a roadblock sculpted for the party. All the metagaming a DM might have held back gains an in-universe justification as the enemies know what's coming.

[Zalabim]

Except, really it's a claw/claw/bite/tail/tail/tail attack routine, which is likely to be a grapple/claw/bite/fly away with fighter/tail/tail/tail routine, after which point it's basically solo fighter vs. solo dragon.

Dragons aren't one of the creatures that can grapple within their multiattack routine, but vampires and rocs can definitely do something like this. So that clarifies another way to get a high level TPK is to ignore the book when it suits you. Which is good general advice as well.

The book is not the final arbiter. It is the first source, not the last answer. It is only a suggestion.