5e cheese already?!

[HolyDraconus]

So, as a break from dming 3rd, a player wanted to run a side campaign in 5th. And now I'm having to learn differences. Since the other players are the standard gooberz from my own campaign I decided on a variant human with magic initiate as a sorc1/war1, nothing completely broken, but gouda is evident when pressed. Still though, outside the eb/ invocation, what other Swiss am I missing? Yes, I am a novice in 5e (but I do nasty things in 3) and some things aren't porting over well. Like skills, criticals, and ranged spells like ray of frost. A crash course would be nice. Oh, and I saw how gimped the phb sorc was and went with storm. I threw many a book at players, so I know to stay clear of favored soul.

[Cybren]

So, as a break from dming 3rd, a player wanted to run a side campaign in 5th. And now I'm having to learn differences. Since the other players are the standard gooberz from my own campaign I decided on a variant human with magic initiate as a sorc1/war1, nothing completely broken, but gouda is evident when pressed. Still though, outside the eb/ invocation, what other Swiss am I missing? Yes, I am a novice in 5e (but I do nasty things in 3) and some things aren't porting over well. Like skills, criticals, and ranged spells like ray of frost. A crash course would be nice. Oh, and I saw how gimped the phb sorc was and went with storm. I threw many a book at players, so I know to stay clear of favored soul.

I don't really think a sorcerer/warlock multiclass is "cheese". you have some nice synergy in short rest spellslots you can convert to spellpoints, but you wind up with fewer total spellpoints & higher level sorcerer slots. I suppose you could define cheese a certain way and consider the ubiquity of Warlock 1/2 dips and Fighter 2 dips to be 'cheesey' but I don't know.

There's certainly some interactions/abilities that are very impressive, but they come online pretty high level usually, like Onion Druids, or Wish/Simulacrum stuff.

[Slipperychicken]

So, as a break from dming 3rd, a player wanted to run a side campaign in 5th. And now I'm having to learn differences. Since the other players are the standard gooberz from my own campaign I decided on a variant human with magic initiate as a sorc1/war1, nothing completely broken, but gouda is evident when pressed. Still though, outside the eb/ invocation, what other Swiss am I missing? Yes, I am a novice in 5e (but I do nasty things in 3) and some things aren't porting over well. Like skills, criticals, and ranged spells like ray of frost. A crash course would be nice. Oh, and I saw how gimped the phb sorc was and went with storm. I threw many a book at players, so I know to stay clear of favored soul.

I don't think EB with invocations is cheese, it's just that people get sick of everyone having 2 warlock levels for it. I don't know, maybe the repelling blast is a little too much for most.


But there are some things to watch out for off the top of my head:
-On spells like spirit guardians and moonbeam, some players try to cheese it by saying that moving it over an enemy counts as the enemy entering the space, so it triggers damage. It's not supposed to do that, and it's overpowered if it does because that lets people use it on far more enemies than they should. The damage is only supposed to trigger once per round, like a damage-over-time effect.
-Aaracokcra are really strong for their ability to fly at will from level 1. I advise disallowing the race.
-Life cleric bonus healing applying to the goodberry spell (one could get it with DruidX/Life Cleric1 or Life Cleric with magic initiate) means healing 40 hp with a level one spell, and that's obviously OP.
-Rogues are supposed to get their sneak attacks every round, so don't worry if they seem to be triggering it too regularly.
-Using conjure woodland beings to summon pixies is considered OP. Eight polymorphs at once for a 3rd level slot is kind of a no-no.

Aside from those, we don't have as much easy-to-access cheese in 5e. Maybe that's partly because the system is young and people haven't quite picked it all apart yet, but it's not so bad in that department.

[bid]

Agonizing blast requires warlock 2.

Twin BB cheese makes draconic sorcerer 3 / rogue 2 slightly more powerful than a smiting paladin. And a swashbuckler can move out of range and let the enemy stuck in place.

Bearbarian or dronk are appreciated too.

[HolyDraconus]

I don't really think a sorcerer/warlock multiclass is "cheese". you have some nice synergy in short rest spellslots you can convert to spellpoints, but you wind up with fewer total spellpoints & higher level sorcerer slots. I suppose you could define cheese a certain way and consider the ubiquity of Warlock 1/2 dips and Fighter 2 dips to be 'cheesey' but I don't know.

There's certainly some interactions/abilities that are very impressive, but they come online pretty high level usually, like Onion Druids, or Wish/Simulacrum stuff.
It's American slice levels of cheese. A two level dip grants cha to damage and dark vision, or some other utility, with rp flavored stuff like telepathy tossed in. And I still hit 18 sorc. No one has convinced me why not going 20 storm sorc isn't a good idea.

I don't think EB with invocations is cheese, it's just that people get sick of everyone having 2 warlock levels for it. I don't know, maybe the repelling blast is a little too much for most.


But there are some things to watch out for off the top of my head:
-On spells like spirit guardians and moonbeam, some players try to cheese it by saying that moving it over an enemy counts as the enemy entering the space, so it triggers damage. It's not supposed to do that, and it's overpowered if it does because that lets people use it on far more enemies than they should. The damage is only supposed to trigger once per round, like a damage-over-time effect.
-Aaracokcra are really strong for their ability to fly at will from level 1. I advise disallowing the race.
-Life cleric bonus healing applying to the goodberry spell (one could get it with DruidX/Life Cleric1 or Life Cleric with magic initiate) means healing 40 hp with a level one spell, and that's obviously OP.
-Rogues are supposed to get their sneak attacks every round, so don't worry if they seem to be triggering it too regularly.
-Using conjure woodland beings to summon pixies is considered OP. Eight polymorphs at once for a 3rd level slot is kind of a no-no.

Aside from those, we don't have as much easy-to-access cheese in 5e. Maybe that's partly because the system is young and people haven't quite picked it all apart yet, but it's not so bad in that department.I'm a player in this campaign so I don't mind that at all. Not my problem this time. Heh.


Agonizing blast requires warlock 2.

Twin BB cheese makes draconic sorcerer 3 / rogue 2 slightly more powerful than a smiting paladin. And a swashbuckler can move out of range and let the enemy stuck in place.

Bearbarian or dronk are appreciated too.
I try not to step on toes. We have a rogue going trickster. I'm a charlatan sorc. Funny how that worked out.

[Quintessence]

Agonizing blast requires warlock 2.

Twin BB cheese makes draconic sorcerer 3 / rogue 2 slightly more powerful than a smiting paladin. And a swashbuckler can move out of range and let the enemy stuck in place.

Bearbarian or dronk are appreciated too.

How exactly is twin BB cheese..?

[Dalebert]

Here's a little bit of cheese if you have just the right situation to exploit it. Say you have a few hours before adventuring with your Sor 5/ Lock 3. Each hour, you can do the following in order:

1) Convert 5 sorc points to a 3rd level spell slot.
2) Convert your 2 lvl 2 warlock slots to 4 spell points.
3) Short rest and get your 2 warlock slots back.

So you can basically gain an extra 3rd level slot every hour at the cost of 1 sorc point. If you have five hours, you can do it four times and get all your sorc points back. Then you have 4 extra fireballs. Fortunately, Crawford has errata-d that extra slots created this way go away after a long rest. Otherwise you could spend days making extra slots for an adventure!

I pointedly try not to get too carried away with this or I just know the DM will start finding ways to fill up any extra free time we have. I'll do it maybe once or twice now and then. But you can be sure that whenever the party takes a short rest and I'm full up on slots, I do it.

[MrFahrenheit]

Honestly, 5e rewards other (smart) actions taken in combat as much as optimizing damage. Banishment is a helluva spell...

[Flashy]

Honestly, 5e rewards other (smart) actions taken in combat as much as optimizing damage. Banishment is a helluva spell...

It's honestly so good, and it's even more so in campaigns that are heavy on extra-dimensional creatures.

[HolyDraconus]

Okay, everyone is focusing a little too much on the cheese and are glossing over the questions. And to add another: what merit is there to sorc 20 vs war2/sorc18? Spells seems small this time around

[mgshamster]

What other questions? The only question is see is you asking about cheese.

Care to restate your questions in a manner that's easier to understand?

[Dalebert]

No one has convinced me why not going 20 storm sorc isn't a good idea.

It has definite benefits. You will feel the pain though by always being two levels behind on sorcerer class features--the next higher level spell, ASIs, new metamagics, wings... I'm sure you're aware of it but it's easy to feel like you're just trading the last two levels of features. They're no big deal in my opinion. The real cost is paid all along the way. You're constantly trading two early levels of warlock features for the two highest levels of sorcerer features. I don't regret my decision to take 3 levels of warlock with my sorcerer but I feel the pain every time I gain a level and realize what I would have at that level if I had gone full sorcerer.

[mgshamster]

It has definite benefits. You will feel the pain though by always being two levels behind on sorcerer class features--the next higher level spell, ASIs, new metamagics, wings... I'm sure you're aware of it but it's easy to feel like you're just trading the last two levels of features. They're no big deal in my opinion. The real cost is paid all along the way. You're constantly trading two early levels of warlock features for the two highest levels of sorcerer features. I don't regret my decision to take 3 levels of warlock with my sorcerer but I feel the pain every time I gain a level and realize what I would have at that level if I had gone full sorcerer.

Plus, going 2 warlock/x sorc means you don't get your first ASI until level 6. Two levels behind a normal sorc.

[HolyDraconus]

What other questions? The only question is see is you asking about cheese.

Care to restate your questions in a manner that's easier to understand?

Difference on skills, crits and ranged spell attacks, and other cheese concering sorc.

[Cybren]

Difference on skills, crits and ranged spell attacks, and other cheese concering sorc.

Well, a Sorcerer x/ Warlock 2 has to get to 7th level to cast third level spells. That's a big deal, and it's an example of why Warlock dips are common but not universal. As people mentioned, you're offsetting your sorcerer progression from the start. Sure, at level 20 being 18/2 isn't that big a difference, but being 2/2 and 3/2 and all the way up, is.

[RickAllison]

Here's a little bit of cheese if you have just the right situation to exploit it. Say you have a few hours before adventuring with your Sor 5/ Lock 3. Each hour, you can do the following in order:

1) Convert 5 sorc points to a 3rd level spell slot.
2) Convert your 2 lvl 2 warlock slots to 4 spell points.
3) Short rest and get your 2 warlock slots back.

So you can basically gain an extra 3rd level slot every hour at the cost of 1 sorc point. If you have five hours, you can do it four times and get all your sorc points back. Then you have 4 extra fireballs. Fortunately, Crawford has errata-d that extra slots created this way go away after a long rest. Otherwise you could spend days making extra slots for an adventure!

I pointedly try not to get too carried away with this or I just know the DM will start finding ways to fill up any extra free time we have. I'll do it maybe once or twice now and then. But you can be sure that whenever the party takes a short rest and I'm full up on slots, I do it.

Cheese IS available with it at higher levels (and so reduced power). The Undying patron gains an ability at higher levels to not need sleep. This means that unless the warlock (who at that point is something like 10 evels deep) needs the benefits of a long rest, he doesn't really need them. Technically, others don't need it either by the strictest rulings, but other text seems to indicate that sleep/trance is required for maintained capabilities as evidenced by text on Constitution saving throws.

So to endlessly produce third-level slots, you would actually need Warlock 10/Sorcerer 5. For a sense of perspective, that is the level where a wizard has unlocked the secrets of immortality (Clone) and the creation of universe fragments (Demiplane). A Druid is unlocking the ability to gift Wild Shape to others for an entire day (Animal Shapes). The cleric gives a short-term Foresight effect to the entire party at that level! The ability to produce numerous Fireballs is not terribly overpowered at that point.

Now two levels more and where others are reshaping reality, the Warlock 10/Sorcerer 7 can manufacture 5th-level slots. Unfortunately, he really doesn't have that much to use it with that justifies the massive power decrease.

Want some crazy cheese? Druid 1/Sorcerer 5/Undying Warlock 11. 3 5th-level slots per short rest gives 15 sorcery points, a 1st-level slot takes 2 points, and each 1st-level slot for Goodberry gives 10. That means each short rest from this character can feed 75 people on average, healing 300 hp total if you add in a level of Life Cleric. Who needs long rests to heal when you have that much going?

[krugaan]

Well, a Sorcerer x/ Warlock 2 has to get to 7th level to cast third level spells. That's a big deal, and it's an example of why Warlock dips are common but not universal. As people mentioned, you're offsetting your sorcerer progression from the start. Sure, at level 20 being 18/2 isn't that big a difference, but being 2/2 and 3/2 and all the way up, is.

Generally going to be one full asi behind all single classes too. Well, at least half the time.

It's true, towards the end at 18/2 is marginally superior, but only if you consider the last two level of sorc to be better than the first two levels of warlock.

And unless have 20 cha at a relatively early level (like ... 5) the additional damage hardly seems worth it. Although darkness cheese can be very nice.

[Pex]

Just because a Something is a nice combination of abilities or a cool singular ability on its own doesn't mean it's cheesy. PCs are allowed to be good at stuff, and it's an intended feature to be able to do a fun "powerful" thing to affect the gameworld even if it's just kill monsters dead.

[jas61292]

Just because a Something is a nice combination of abilities or a cool singular ability on its own doesn't mean it's cheesy. PCs are allowed to be good at stuff, and it's an intended feature to be able to do a fun "powerful" thing to affect the gameworld even if it's just kill monsters dead.

I think the reason people consider the warlock dip cheesy is because it is basically taking advantage of the fact that Agonizing Blast is basically one of the only class features in the entire game that "scales" with character level rather than class level. Its arguably an instance of poor, inconsistent game design, and utilizing such things is something often seen as cheese. Not everyone sees it like that, but I believe that's where the attitude comes from.

[mgshamster]

I guess I'm just not understanding how any of this is really "cheese."

I thought cheese in terms of this game was a power gaming move that was generally frowned upon. None of the builds presented here are that bad.

[Dalebert]

Lvl 2 warlock is also the only way to see in magical darkness. There used to be spells that various classes had access to for that. Warlock seems to be the most common dip but less common of a choice for a main class. But I digress from the thread topic.

[Coidzor]

Lvl 2 warlock is also the only way to see in magical darkness. There used to be spells that various classes had access to for that. Warlock seems to be the most common dip but less common of a choice for a main class. But I digress from the thread topic.

Do you mean earlier editions or the playtest version of 5e?

[ad_hoc]

You're underestimating the Wild Mage.

Tides of Chaos is very good. Bend Luck is also pretty good, though wouldn't be used as often.

[bid]

How exactly is twin BB cheese..?
Because it gives your rogue 2 melee attacks, a second chance of landing your sneak attack.

There's no unpasteurized cheese in 5e, the best you can do is of the level of Kraft Singles.


Oh yeah, and devil's sight + darkness is egotist cheese. The rest of the party can sit on their hands until you're done.

[Flashy]

Because it gives your rogue 2 melee attacks, a second chance of landing your sneak attack.

I mean, only if they dip at least three levels of sorcerer for a limited use effect they could get for free by picking up a second shortsword. Unless there's some other weird interaction I'm not seeing here?

[Cybren]

BB/GFB on any single attack weapon-using class (from magical secrets or magic initiate or a multiclass) is already a substantial damage boost for them, if they can cast them. Having a second chance for sneak attack is nice but I'm not sure it's cheesy

[ES Curse]

SorcLock is pretty cool. Probably the best synergy between 2 caster classes in 5e. There are really 4 main versions of SorcLock:
-War2/SorcX focuses more on Sorcerer powers and doesn't lag behind as much in ASI/feat gain
-Bladelock/Sorc may be a bit too MAD, but a good DEX build combined with Draconic Resilience could be worth it
-Tomelock/Sorc can also play melee with Shilleagh, but gets even more magic options.
-Chainlock/Sorc can cast Sorcerer spells from your familiar; I'm not versed enough with familiars to know if this is good. How does this interact with Wild Magic?

Some weirdos might trade off a level of Sorcerer to keep up in feats/ASI by level 8, but this costs your 9th level spell slot at level 20, which is a pretty big deal if you are playing at that tier. Feats that might go good with this build:
-Actor (combine with Invocations for max RP cheese?)
-Elemental Adept (Fiend patron and Red draconics like this I think)
-Lucky (why not?)
-Weapon feats for bladelocks
-War Caster

[bid]

I mean, only if they dip at least three levels of sorcerer for a limited use effect they could get for free by picking up a second shortsword. Unless there's some other weird interaction I'm not seeing here?
Your 2 shortswords will do 2d6+5 + 10d6 = 12+35 at the cost of your bonus action.
BB cheese will do 8d8+10 + 9d6 = 46+31 at the cost of 1 SP, and stop the target from moving.

A pure fighter would do 4d8+28 = 36 damage every round while BB cheese works 3 times per fight (or 11 times per day) if you go sorcerer 3 / rogue 17. An assassin could nova for 185 damage that way.

It's not that bad, but it's the cheesiest direct damage. Not in the same league as armies of undead or pixies, but still.

[Flashy]

Your 2 shortswords will do 2d6+5 + 10d6 = 12+35 at the cost of your bonus action.
BB cheese will do 8d8+10 + 9d6 = 46+31 at the cost of 1 SP, and stop the target from moving.

Yeah, I suppose that's fair. It's a fair amount of damage in the very late levels. I was thinking more about the midlevels when the cantrip hasn't scaled as hard.

There's also the objection that it only works when two enemies are standing within 5' of you, but I grant that this is about as close to cheese as 5e gets short of Wish/Simulacrum nonsense.

[Dalebert]

Do you mean earlier editions or the playtest version of 5e?

Earlier editions. I'm not familiar with the playtests.


Oh yeah, and devil's sight + darkness is egotist cheese. The rest of the party can sit on their hands until you're done.

This seems amazing but I'm finding it not to be as cheesy in actual practice.

1) A surprising number of creatures have blindsight.
2) It takes an action to cast Darkness and many battles just don't seem difficult enough to warrant wasting that action out of a likely 3 round combat. If you're anticipating the fight and can pre-buff or if you're expecting more fighting within the next 10 minutes, it's easier to justify.
3) It's often really impractical to do because it can be a huge impediment to everyone in your own party who doesn't have Devil's Sight, i.e. usually everyone but you.

My drow Sorc with 3 levels of lock didn't even take Devil's Sight. Instead I took tomelock and have a bat familiar. I didn't learn Darkness but I still have it once a day racially which is plenty. Often I don't even use that. If I do, I cast it on my bat and use it to hide between my attacks. The bat can be 15 feet up and make a more convenient 10x10 square of darkness for me that's less impeding to my allies. The bat can keep me informed what's up with its blindsight. It can also deliver Shocking Grasp or any other touch spell with advantage.

[Knaight]

Okay, everyone is focusing a little too much on the cheese and are glossing over the questions. And to add another: what merit is there to sorc 20 vs war2/sorc18? Spells seems small this time around

Not many. Sorc 18 to war2/sorc16 has a lot though, as does Sorc 17 to war2/sor15, Sorc 16 to war2/sorc14,...

Most of the game doesn't happen at level 19-20, and until you actually get there you're down a spell level and a number of spells.

[MaxWilson]

It's American slice levels of cheese. A two level dip grants cha to damage and dark vision, or some other utility, with rp flavored stuff like telepathy tossed in. And I still hit 18 sorc. No one has convinced me why not going 20 storm sorc isn't a good idea.
I'm a player in this campaign so I don't mind that at all. Not my problem this time. Heh.

I think you may be using a different definition of "cheese" than some people. Many people would define "cheese" = "silly or gimmicky combinations which technically work but break suspension of disbelief." Cheese is abusing the rules in ways that would annoy other people with their obvious gaminess.

Google's definition of "cheesy" is "cheap, unpleasant, or blatantly inauthentic." Trying to claim that you can cast Conjure Woodland Creatures, guarantee yourself pure pixies, and then use those pixies to Polymorph everyone in your group into flying T-Rexes is cheesy. It makes the DM go, "Hold on, that can't possibly be intended by the rules." Likewise, a Necromancer who tried to claim that Grim Harvest gave him HP back every time one of his skeletons killed something "because I just killed something with a necromancy spell" would be incredibly cheesy. It breaks the social contract with the other players and says, "This guy isn't playing in good faith. He'll say anything in order to 'win'."

Warlock 2/Sorcerer X is not cheesy, in my view. It's good and it has obvious synergies; but it is clearly not unintended by the designers and therefore does not break my suspension of disbelief and is not cheesy.

I think you are using "cheesy" in some other sense.

[BrianDavion]

as a DM I don't let my players multiclass without justifying it. a sorcerer player doesn't just get to show up at the table and declare "yeah I'm suddenly a warlock"

not that I've had problems with people cheese, I game with roleplayers who don't immediatly look at how to break a system

[Naanomi]

I don't see classes (especially martial classes) as distinct things in game for the most part. No one says 'I was a ranger, now I'm a rogue!'; but rather their training and experience picked those skills up. A few classes are obviously different (paladin, warlock, cleric) but for the most part I see classes as a mechanical abstraction not a real 'thing'

[MaxWilson]

as a DM I don't let my players multiclass without justifying it. a sorcerer player doesn't just get to show up at the table and declare "yeah I'm suddenly a warlock"

I kind of take the opposite perspective. Because I come from an AD&D background, I'm totally cool with someone declaring from level 1, for example, "I'm a fighter/warlock", even if they haven't actually taken any warlock levels yet. I just figure they have already made their pact but haven't yet learned to control their power enough to benefit from it.

In other words, I'm comfortable thinking of "Sorlock" as its own class which just happens to be mixed-and-matched from Warlock and Sorcerer based on PHB rules. The PHB contains hundreds of classes when you think of it this way; and that's one reason I am not eager to see even more classes from DMsGuilds/WotC splatbooks/etc. We haven't even finished exploring 1% of the classes in the PHB...