V's Gender Debate IV [Official] [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Nerd-o-rama

2006-04-22, 03:06 AM

And why is it [official]? Because it's the first after Giant closed the other threads for being competitive, duplicative, and spammy, and ordered us to move on.

Now, to begin the discussion:

I say, who cares? Live and let live. It's not like you can tell half the time with elves anyway. However, (s)he always struck me as having a slightly more masculine personality than feminine. Impatient (as far as a wizard can be, at least,) violent, arrogant...all frequently perceived as masculine (or at least Yangish) traits, and all emphasized in V at one point or another.

Discuss. Politely.

Adeptus

2006-04-22, 07:12 AM

Dhavaer

2006-04-22, 08:25 AM

Gender racism.

Wouldn't saying 'sexism' be simpler? Or do you mean something different?

Roland St. Jude

2006-04-22, 12:15 PM

Wouldn't saying 'sexism' be simpler? Or do you mean something different?

It would be - but it lacks the rhetorical punch added by invoking racism.

SlyJohnny

2006-04-22, 04:24 PM

It would be - but it lacks the rhetorical punch added by invoking racism.

Hahahaha, oh snap.

My comment resposted from just before the last thread closed:

Vaarsuvius as a character fascinates me. I find I really, really care what gender he is, and thinking of him as a male makes me have a different attitude to thinking of... her, as a female.

Being that I didn't formerly buy the feminist crap that gender makes a fundamental difference to my perceptions of people (Or at least anyone I don't actively want to have sex with), Im sort of surprised. And now I find I don't want to know what gender Vaarsuvius is, cause I find his actions more interesting without the framework...

Im definitely overanalysing this, and Vaarsuvius is a fictional character so it's dumb. Still, does anyone else find him/her more interesting in some way because you don't know what gender he/she is?

Of course, being that Vaarsuvius is an interesting and intelligent character with a three-dimensional personality, I think it's fairly safe to assume he's not female.

*ducks and rolls*

The Doctor

2006-04-22, 04:44 PM

Having dated someone whose gender I didn't know until we ended up in bed I can safely say it doesn't make a bit of difference.
You like someone or not. You fancy someone or not.

In V's case, we have someone with an outspoken mind, someone who I know I would love to be friends with, who would drive me nuts as a lover, and who I definitely wouldn't want as an enemy.
Those feelings won't change because I suddenly know V's gender.

V is genderqueer, undefined and taht does, sort of, make V more interesting.
If gender was suddenly revealed, it woudl posisbly just be a dissapointment, beause the mystery would then be gone.

So while this discussion itself is interesting I am not sure what we are trying to establish here?

Master_Febo

2006-04-22, 06:04 PM

personally, even if she's agressive and stuff, I see her as a female. I think she does become quite "male"ish when his/her friends are acting stupid again. But if (s)he is male why would haley go in the same room when they go at an inn or similar?

also some considerable evidense is on the OOTS comic #123.

therefore, my point of view is that either V is a female, an "it" or...likes guys...

storybookknight

2006-04-23, 12:04 AM

At one point or another I mentioned that it would make sense for V to be male, so that Haley could be the only girl in the party - I also share the opinion that I have never heard the unbridled arrogance V displays on a woman before. Then again, I'm not an elf.

Also, it would make sense for Haley to feel safe rooming with V because she knows that V's married, whether or not they share a gender. And it isn't as if she wants to pay for her own private room...

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever heard Haley refer to V by gender? His, hers, or other such? That seems like it would be the surest clue. I'll have to reread the archives for the seventh or eigth time...

That said, V is just as interesting as a genderless character, in my opinion, and I don't actually have an emotional stake in the issue. Anyways, off to do that whole archive thing - peace all.

Dhavaer

2006-04-23, 05:31 AM

Having dated someone whose gender I didn't know until we ended up in bed I can safely say it doesn't make a bit of difference.

:o

How many other aspects of your life are like a TV show? That must have been an interesting relationship.

Sophistemon

2006-04-23, 11:45 AM

Having dated someone whose gender I didn't know until we ended up in bed I can safely say it doesn't make a bit of difference.
It might just be me, but that's something I would have liked to know before the pants hit the floor.

Finwe

2006-04-23, 12:43 PM

I also share the opinion that I have never heard the unbridled arrogance V displays on a woman before. Then again, I'm not an elf.

I've known several girls who've had the same kind of personality that V has. However, I too think that V's personality would most likely belong to a man. (Not that it couldn't possible belong to a woman though...)

Xerillum

2006-04-23, 05:46 PM

V is probably a woman. The fact that her arranged marriage was to a man seals it, along with her need to be roomed with another woman.

also, it could be non-gendered, but who wants to find out ??? (anyone who does has a sick, sick mind.)

Arian

2006-04-23, 10:37 PM

The fact that her arranged marriage was to a man

... is not a 'fact'. Where does it say that?

Gary_Howard

2006-04-23, 10:41 PM

Having dated someone whose gender I didn't know until we ended up in bed I can safely say it doesn't make a bit of difference.
You like someone or not. You fancy someone or not.

And the more power to you!

NIIICE avatar.

Holy_Knight

2006-04-23, 10:45 PM

The only ansver to this is that people are much less gendered than some of you think. The traits you list above for V are not masculine, they are just human.

Some societies and ethnic groups still think a woman is supposed inherently kind, meek and unambitious. That's just cultural baggage of a rather nasty kind. Gender racism.
That's rather hyperbolic, Adeptus. True, some gender roles are socially constructed, but there are many differences between males and females which arise from natural bioloical facts. Besides which, there's nothing inherently bad about males and females being different from each other in generally consistent ways, nor about some traits being more common in males than in females. The only wrongness comes from using those differences as a source of oppression.

Having dated someone whose gender I didn't know until we ended up in bed

Whoa... seriously? If you don't mind my asking, how was it that this person's gender was so obscured? Did they have a particularly unusual manner of dress, or very non-descript features, or what?

V is probably a woman. The fact that her arranged marriage was to a man seals it,
What are you talking about, Tom? It was never stated that V's mate was a man, nor, as far as I know, that the marriage was arranged. Are you confusing Vaarsuvius with Hilgya?

The Doctor

2006-04-24, 03:14 AM

you don't mind my asking, how was it that this person's gender was so obscured? Did they have a particularly unusual manner of dress, or very non-descript features, or what?

My date's appearance was androgyn, and dressed in such a way as to make it hard to guess gender (short cut hair, loose shirt and trousers, etc). Could have been a guy, could have been a girl.
Now, I could make a guess, but I wasn't sure. And I could have asked, but since we both had already agreed that gender was not really a factor, I didn't, figuring I would find out later.

Many people have an aversion to the mere idea of a sexual relation ship with a man or a woman, so I guess they would be troubled.
If you set that thought aside, if you, so to speak, don't mind to dance with a boy or girl, then gender just becomes fluff. You can safely have a crush for someone you meet without being emberrased later on. It's a lot easier, really.

Tyrasius

2006-04-24, 08:25 AM

Okay I think Vaarsuvius is a girl, and know that she is a guy.

Yes that sounded really wierd.

I think she is a girl, because that was what I first interpreted her as being on reading the first comic, and what I thought she was for at least 150 comics, probably more around 290 (whenever I started reading these forums is when I changed my mind) I had this interpretation for one, and only one reason. Specifically, in the 3.0 D&D core rulebooks, there is an elven wizard, who is female, as such all elven wizards are female until proven otherwise for me. Also said Mialee the wizard acts sort os like Vaarsuvius, further reinforcing my assumptions, and later comics such as the Elan's weapon of choice, and #123 reinforced m assumption.

Now I know that she is a guy because Rich Burlew actually said it in these forums. Go back to the very last page in the comics forums and read every thread. Thats what I did, and somewhere there Bogotter the modotter said he thought V was a she and EVERYONE disagreed, and then Bogotter the Modotter made a thread about how he was wrong when Rich typed V as a he in the animal companions thread.

In conclusion, I don't care. I know V is a he and yet still whenever I see someone say V as a he I automatically correct it in my mind thinking, thats wron its she, and a second later remembering, oh wait, nevermind they are right.

Wow that was a really long post, hope its not too conusing

Saithis Bladewing

2006-04-24, 08:58 AM

Rinion

2006-04-24, 09:55 AM

Woah... I forgot I was registered here. Anywho:

My date's appearance was androgyn, and dressed in such a way as to make it hard to guess gender (short cut hair, loose shirt and trousers, etc). Could have been a guy, could have been a girl.
Now, I could make a guess, but I wasn't sure. And I could have asked, but since we both had already agreed that gender was not really a factor, I didn't, figuring I would find out later.
If you don't mind me asking, what was you partner's discovered gender?

Concerning V, I have no real arguement either way. When I fisrt read the comics, I always perceived her/him as male. It came as quite a shock when I visited these forums and found a heated debate over V's gender. Of course, this entitled a re-read of the comics.
Though I now see that there is not much evidence either way, when I read the comics, I also picture V with a male voice. Ah, well [/my 2 cents]

GNUsNotUnix

2006-04-24, 11:07 AM

Simple.

Varsuvius is a guy. Otherwise, he would have been 'Varsuvia.'

tee_kay_one

2006-04-24, 11:29 AM

I have a mildly unrelated remark -- one reason while I love OotS AND the forums is, that really cool people are hanging around here. I like you folks (what gender you ever choose to be...)

The Doctor

2006-04-24, 11:52 AM

Woah... I forgot I was registered here. Anywho:
If you don't mind me asking, what was you partner's discovered gender?

It turned out my first guess (I changed my perception a few times during the date) had been correct.

Btw I originally did think V was male due to the name, but since elf names likely do not follow the same pattern as ancient Rome, I don't think it proves anything in the end.

bluish_wolf

2006-04-24, 12:05 PM

It turned out my first guess (I changed my perception a few times during the date) had been correct.

What an impressive way to dodge the question.

The Doctor

2006-04-24, 01:09 PM

What an impressive way to dodge the question.

900 years of experience must count for something.

Holy_Knight

2006-04-24, 01:18 PM

My date's appearance was androgyn, and dressed in such a way as to make it hard to guess gender (short cut hair, loose shirt and trousers, etc). Could have been a guy, could have been a girl.
Now, I could make a guess, but I wasn't sure. And I could have asked, but since we both had already agreed that gender was not really a factor, I didn't, figuring I would find out later.

Thanks for the explanation. I was just curious since with most people you can tell pretty much right away.

I have a mildly unrelated remark -- one reason while I love OotS AND the forums is, that really cool people are hanging around here. I like you folks (what gender you ever choose to be...)

Aw, thanks tee_kay_one. And I agree, the vast majority of posters on this board are great, it's a really nice community. (Especially compared to a lot of the nonsense that infests most internet forums.) So I will echo your sentiment. :)

LE4dGOLEM

2006-04-24, 02:11 PM

I do know some very... "masculine" females and some very... uh... "feminine" males, and I always thought V was a Guy... but when Haley Bunked with hir in the Inn, I thought...hm and then, while discissing over MSN with Drake Dragonslayer (he still active?) I pointed out #116 (http://giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=116) and inside the same second we both said "SHE CAN SEE!". So either V's a she, V's a guy who "likes guys", or the Marriage between V and the unmet spouse is very secure.
The main pro-she argument, I think, is still that Pompeii is a he.

BTW Doctor, very clever... and I have to ask, what was it like Filming with Queen Victoria?

Liliedhe

2006-04-24, 02:22 PM

Before I started reading the Forum I never doubted that V was a guy. It didn't ever occur to me, that there might be a debate... ;D

A classical education will do that... (any name ending with -us has to be male) But a friend of mine never doubted that V was a girl and he was also quite astonished when he discovered the debate. So I suppose that it's entirely in the eye of the beholder... ;)

But just for statistical purposes I asked several other people (who don't read OotS) for their opinion and they all said 'female'. So I suppose I'd count as the odd one... 8)

TheJet31619

2006-04-24, 04:34 PM

Ok, I'm going to show my points of why V is a female. One, V hangs out with Haley. And V could be the girlfriend of Haley that she shares her secrets with V. Two, V loves to drag out speeches. Most to all females love to talk and seem to never stop, you should hear my girlfriend ::). (That's not a bad thing, I still love you sweetie :-*) And in "On the Origins of the PCs." and when V breaks the table, Roy says that V is hired. And V says "Bah!! You are clearly only hiring me because I intimidated you intellectually, to the point where your masculine pride requires you to establish your dominance over my superior mind." Because a lot of women feel that they are smarter men and that men have dominance over them. So with that, V must be a female.

reorith

2006-04-24, 05:15 PM

gender expressions are overrated. maybe v's player just doesn't care about the gender of their pc. how does gender effect a character and game play? other than -2 on disguise checks.

Holy_Knight

2006-04-24, 05:19 PM

Ok, I'm going to show my points of why V is a female. One, V hangs out with Haley. And V could be the girlfriend of Haley that she shares her secrets with V.
Sure, "could" be, but V could also be the sensitive male friend that Haley finds non-threatening. We also know that Haley tends to have trouble getting along with other females.

Two, V loves to drag out speeches. Most to all females love to talk and seem to never stop.
Maybe, but they typically don't talk like V does, but rather more like this (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=257). ;D It's a more typically masculine thing to go into long, know-it-all explanations of every little thing.

And in "On the Origins of the PCs." and when V breaks the table, Roy says that V is hired. And V says "Bah!! You are clearly only hiring me because I intimidated you intellectually, to the point where your masculine pride requires you to establish your dominance over my superior mind." Because a lot of women feel that they are smarter men and that men have dominance over them. So with that, V must be a female.
This is inconclusive too. V could just be very aware of how most people's minds tend to work, male or female, and his understanding of Roy's psychology could have come from being a male himself. Besides, being derisive of that way of thinking doesn't mean he's more likely to be female--I myself am a male and very much attracted to women, but I find a lot of people that could be called "stereotypical males" to pretty much just be jackasses.

EscherEnigma

2006-04-25, 12:44 AM

sides, if you associate 'masculine' with testosterone, and 'feminine' with estrogen, you could make a very easy argument that elves have low testosterone regardless of gender since they are seen as more feminine. This could actually lead to some interesting theoretical analysis of their fantasy psychology based off of the research on the long-term effects of testosterone (mostly correlations, and thus non-conclusive), but I'll make a simple anaylisis and say that since all elves are typically portrayed as less masculine, that all elves have a lower average level of testosterone, and thus as an elf, V thinks of most human men as being 'masculine' since, compared to almost any elf, almost any human man IS masculine.

... ok, that was a long psuedo-scientific rant, and I think I looped myself, so recap: elves tend to be portrayed as being feminine, as such V. can (almost) safely assume that a human man will be more masculine then himself.

Note: my use of himself and other pro-nouns in regards to V. does not indicate any belief of V.'s gender that I may have. I'm just lazy.

Bzar

2006-04-25, 10:01 PM

I say hermaphroditic...

ok ok I know it sounds stupid, but I just had to post something.

Finwe

2006-04-25, 10:42 PM

Simple.

Varsuvius is a guy. Otherwise, he would have been 'Varsuvia.'

Who say's its a second declension name? It might be third or fourth declension, which would make it neuter. Or it could just be irregular. Or I could be completely overanylizing this :).

GNUsNotUnix

2006-04-26, 03:21 PM

Touche, Finwe.

octopod

2006-04-26, 03:52 PM

Ha, time I finally posted in this crazy topic.

Arrogance, garrulousness, long pretentious rants? Oh man, I sure know members of both sexes who do that. ::waves::

Likewise, mocking "masculine pride"? That's just being smart and tactless, not gendered.

Haley's roommate? V is Haley's best buddy in the party, so they room together. And Haley's not the most uptight of women, either, one gathers. Moreover, V is married -- maybe elves are properly monogamous and thus it's a non-issue, who knows?

-us ending? Well, Finwe nailed it. No need to say more.

I also liked the point about V's player not bothering to figure it out; I didn't settle on a gender for my last character until I picked a relevant and mellifluous Quenya root for the name and decided that the -on ending sounded better.

You're all on the wrong track here: elves clearly just don't care about that, unlike you silly humans. And I'm *positive* that V's spouse is equally ambiguous, and possibly biologically the same, just by the Giant's unbreakable rules of AWESOME.

Doctor, on the other hand...you rock like whoa. As does V, who is indisputably hawt (but that's another thread). W00t, genderqueer for the win. ;D

The Doctor

2006-04-26, 03:53 PM

Or I could be completely overanylizing this :).

Everything worth analyzing is worth over-analyzing.

Wrecan

2006-04-26, 06:42 PM

Male
Roy (#9)
Elan (#87)
Nale (#252)
2 Azure wizards (#306)

Female
Potion seller (#135)
Dwarven assassin (#240)
Sabine (#252)

Unclear
Horse valet (#173)
Belkar (#177)

Score: 4-3-2

Eriol

2006-04-28, 12:43 PM

New (old really) fuel for the fire. I was looking back through the "origins" thread on the first page, and somebody linked to the ORIGINAL OOTS thread. And on this page (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1073635653 ;start=45), 4th from the bottom, Rawbear makes this assertion:

Sorry, Bogotter, I don't know if Rich was using these when you guys played years ago, but he's been using stick figure minis against us for a while, and i've come to learn that all of his female avatars have apparent breasts.

If you take a gander at http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=news;action=display;n um=1060497491 you'll notice this. Even the Dwarven Female in full plate has them :) Varsuvvius has a rectangular torso, he's a dude :P
Then right below that, The Giant responds with:

You don't know that. You are only drawing that conclusion based on previous examples. For all you know, I deliberately decided to create a sexually-ambiguous elf; in such a circumstance, I would clearly break my own "rules" on how I drew them. :P
Except there has been quotes since then saying that V's ambiguity was NOT intended (somebody please re-link that... I suck at searching), but rather something he saw on the messageboards, and then ran with.

Nothing's conclusive (or this debate would never have gone on this long), but this is definitely more fuel for the "V's Male" fire. Or at the least, originally INTENDED to be male.

EscherEnigma

2006-04-28, 04:11 PM

Yeah, isn't it annoying when induction doesn't work? Specially since thats what almost all of our scientific knowledge is based on?

Telentale

2006-04-28, 04:23 PM

Only thing I have to say is V's always struck me as a female charecter. Mainly because she bunks with Haley.

kendrama

2006-04-28, 05:48 PM

Am I the only one who almost hopes we never find out (or at least not until the very end)? There are so many absolutely hilarious situations this debate can get the OOTS into, and the Giant's touch with the whole issue is so fantastic, I'll be just as happy with the mystery.

Also, I wonder if V is deliberately hiding his/her gender, or if s/he just acts and dresses the way s/he wants to (do you pick your clothes out based on what gender they make you look? I don't; I go based on comfort, color, and style, not gender appropriateness) without regard to what other people think? I mean, if memory serves, s/he's been fairly evasive on the subject in the past, but nobody's ever come right out and asked, either. If we assume that elven attitudes toward gender and sexuality are different than human ones, isn't it possible that they just don't care at all, and can't really understand that humans do unless it gets spelled out for them?

Aereshaa_the_2nd

2006-04-28, 06:36 PM

I say she is female for a reason that is undeniable.
A married man would never room with a sexy girl like haley.

And, uh Wreckan? Belkar is soo male! ::)

BlythraB

2006-04-28, 07:06 PM

I say (backed up by multiple people, none of whom post) that 123:
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=123
proves it that V is Female. Also, hayley, who is as far as we can tell, V's best friend, says "the boys" referencing the others, NOT V.

Wrecan

2006-04-28, 07:14 PM

She uses "boys" to reference their immaturity, not merely their gender.

Athanatos

2006-04-28, 07:32 PM

She uses "boys" to reference their immaturity, not merely their gender.

Game, set, and match.

GrauGeist

2006-04-28, 09:41 PM

A married man would never room with a sexy girl like haley.
V, being an elf, is biologically different. What is hot to humans may not be to elves.

Also, Elves may operate under different societal mores, such that perhaps physical dalliances with human lovers / mistresses / partners aren't a concern among Elves, married or otherwise.

Hallan

2006-05-04, 11:09 PM

on Nov 4th, 2003, 12:33pm bogotter wrote:
So what would happen if Pat (or Vaarsuvius) put on the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity? Hmmmmm?
:-/
I've been going over some of the older posts and noticed this, thought I'd bring it up
(Pat was something they where discussing at the time)

bluish_wolf

2006-05-05, 01:25 PM

V, being an elf, is biologically different. What is hot to humans may not be to elves.

Not that different. They are half-elves, after all.

The Vorpal Tribble

2006-05-05, 02:27 PM

Excuse my political incorrectness, but there is a difference between men and women. There are agressive women and 'feminine' guys, but these are not standard. On average the two genders react similiary to certain situations, which are different than what the other gender would.

Some of this is cultural, other biological. So for the love of Pete (or Petra, you'll have to ask The Doctor ::) ), everyone puh-leeze quit with the 'thats just how humans act'. Yes, male humans act one way, female humans another, generally speaking.

Aaaanyways, I always thought V was a guy, but now I could see it both ways. I hoenstly don't see how this has stretched to over a hundred pages however...

LesserHellspawn

2006-05-06, 05:11 AM

V is male, that I am certain of. No breasts, male eye position (upper third of the face as opposed to middle for females). He sure is (from a human point of view) as gay as they come. Yet that's just plain elven, although it could still be, even with him being married. For all we know (or rather don't), it could be a gay marriage. That last bit also conveniently explains why he shares a room with Haley without removing the point that he is male.

Heads_or_Tails

2006-05-06, 07:13 AM

V is male, that I am certain of. No breasts, male eye position (upper third of the face as opposed to middle for females)

Actually, it has been shown in a previous thread that V's eyes are in a gender neutral position on his head, however I can't locate the link at the moment. The eye thing has been mentioned numerous times in the other V's gender debate threads though. (Not the casual one that I know of... yet.)

Edit: Ugh, typo.
I have located the link hovever: http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1127020528 ;start=89#89

Lilly

2006-05-31, 08:23 PM

bump!

TinSoldier

2006-05-31, 09:00 PM

Aren't these listed in the Important/Reoccuring/FAQ Threads or Notices (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1129795973 )? No? Looks like it needs updating! ;D

Arian

2006-05-31, 11:57 PM

My maths is screwy. How did I think it was "nearly six weeks" after 6 May?! Sorry, all.

You know what? V's Gender Debate IV still is the current thread. :-[

CelestialStick

2006-06-01, 10:17 AM

My maths is screwy. How did I think it was "nearly six weeks" after 6 May?! Sorry, all.

You know what? V's Gender Debate IV still is the current thread. :-[
That's because Lilly bumped it. Moderators are allowed to pracitce threadcromancy. ;)

Ego Slayer

2006-06-01, 10:29 AM

*sigh*... I can't believe you all are still debating this. ::)

These is how the last comic is going to go down:
1, The thing in the shadow is going to ask wether it can come out yet.. in the last pannel.
2. V's gender is still going to STILL be unknown.

:P

CelestialStick

2006-06-01, 10:44 AM

Kontonshin

2006-06-03, 07:44 PM

And, uh Wreckan? Belkar is soo male! ::)

Nono... Wrecan meant that Belkar doesn't know what gender V. is.

Korta

2006-06-12, 05:21 PM

What a great debate...except that after reading the First Thread of it (yes, 49 *whimper* pages) then finding out that there were more threads...I skipped threads two and three. Scary, scary, scary.

I'm really, really new to OotS, but it is easily the most awesome comic that ever existed...when I have funds I'm buying those books.

If I had to pick, V is female...for so many reasons, all of which have been said before.

But I just had to post and say, isn't V written so fabulously? Has anyone ever seen a character before that is SO sexually unclear, that so much can be written about them? Awesome work!

Korta

p.s...I'm positive Haley knows the truth.....but she'll never reveal it....

Chrono_Crow

2006-06-12, 06:22 PM

The truth? Rich hasn't created a designated gender, so not even he knows. It's just for added comedy. It's still funny from the characters's perspectives. Just as we all know Pat from SNL is technically female (played by Julia Sweeney), but still (don't) laugh because the characters are clueless. Unless Rich has modeled it after someone, V is, in fact, an "it".

Tulnavara

2006-06-12, 06:41 PM

Male
Roy (#9)
Elan (#87)
Nale (#252)
2 Azure wizards (#306)

Female
Potion seller (#135)
Dwarven assassin (#240)
Sabine (#252)

Unclear
Horse valet (#173)
Belkar (#177)

Score: 4-3-2

Just wanted to point out you list Nale and Sabine backwards from #252. Nale refers to V as "That elf chick" and Sabine calls V "the elf dude". And I don't really see where Elan assumes V is male, he doesn't make comment about s/he being either...except for being half-camel, he just noticed V wasn't going into the restroom.

Felinoid

2006-06-12, 07:09 PM

I think V is a female because it makes the group more rounded and because #123 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=123) wouldn't have been nearly as funny/hot if V were a guy.

kristineadam

2006-06-12, 08:11 PM

I'm no literary expert, but I find it very telling that I think V's female while my husband is sure V's male. Which basically indicates that we see ourselves in Varsuvius.

Since V is fictional, we are free to use our own interpretations. Which means that V's gender really *doesn't* matter, since we'll all just mentally edit the preposition to match our opinion when we're reading it.

jscheibel

2006-06-12, 09:47 PM

I guess I can kinda, sorta, see people debating this but, it seems pretty straight forward.

I've always thought V was a female. I mean I didnt even question it. I would guess its due to the hair being anything but short-short and wearing a metal hair circlet/tiera/band thing. She gets grouped with haley in all things. The fact that Haley obviously shares more with her would imply a gender comradery in my mind.

When someone calls she a he, its obviously a tug at the elf's gender neutrality but its always done as a joke.

I really haven't seen anything that makes wonder.

Edit: I would only add that it is only unclear to some characters beklar had mentioned wondering in comic 28 as well.

Njerus_Xhazekarath

2006-06-13, 03:38 AM

I prefer to think V as being a female... No reason.

tis_tom

2006-06-13, 04:16 AM

Is it me or did V look suspiciously man-ish in the last comic? I dunno if it was a change in the artwork but V's torso looks more stretched/thinner, and as such makes it seem even less likely that there's any woman parts beneath that robe...

Ink

2006-06-13, 09:16 AM

Well look at it this way. If Vaarsuvius were a man, he would be a feminine man. If Vaarsuvius were a woman, she would be a masculine woman. Given that elves are portrayed as generally being pretty feminine, it would be more likely that Vaarsuvius is male. Has anyone ever heard of an overly-masculine elvish woman? Now if Vaarsuvius were a dwarf on the other hand...

Rose

2006-06-13, 09:18 AM

I think Vaarsuvius is really an oversized dwarf who shaves his/her beard every day. In which case, s/he COULD be a woman!

Nixie

2006-06-13, 09:32 AM

Sure, "could" be, but V could also be the sensitive male friend that Haley finds non-threatening. We also know that Haley tends to have trouble getting along with other females.

Accually, Haley has trouble getting along with other women that she finds threatining. V obviously isn't that threatining to her 'secret' crush on Elan. That, when she was grouped with Sabine, Sabine had Nale, and this (we can safely assume) really ticked her off.

So, really, I think we should leave the debate to the dust because no matter how much we debate, The Giant will find a way to prove us wrong. ;) Thanks!

TroyXavier

2006-06-13, 11:29 PM

I always saw V as female. Not sure why, just seemed that way to me.

kerberos

2006-06-14, 04:41 AM

I always saw V as female, but it occours to me there is something that might conclusively prove otherwise. In comic 9 Roy reffers to V as V-man, I realize that people will point out that this nonly reveals Roy's perception. I am however informed that Rick has said that he had a clear gender identity for V at first, and only added the obscurity after the fan-debate started. Thus if the debate hadn't yet started by comic 9, then Roy's perception of the matter must have been the actual truth of the matter. So the 1 million dollar question is whether the debate had in fact started by comic 9 or not. Are there any veterans of the board who can remember if this is the case?

Alchemistmerlin

2006-06-14, 05:15 AM

Heads_or_Tails

2006-06-14, 07:21 AM

Gobbo_in_the_Boots

2006-06-14, 09:53 AM

My final argument:
They talk about shoes (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=3).
They both have to be girls.

octobergirl

2006-06-14, 02:33 PM

I, personally, think that V is male. I've just thought that way since day one. I noticed this the other day though and checked back on a few comic strips. I've noticed that the female OOTS characters have a curve on their chests to represent their breasts. So okay, I think to myself, maybe the ones in cloaks won't because its a big ol' cloak. So I look back at a few and found some that had cloaks/robes, etc. and there WAS a curve. I even saw the strip with the female dwarf and she had a curve on her chest in the armor. I'm thinking even more now that V is male. LOL Of course there are very flat chested females, however, I've never seen them in OOTS. LOL Anyway, I know its all in each person's perception anyway. Just wanted to share my thoughts on this.

Last Panel, 1st Cell - One female in group:
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=283

The female shop keeper in robe:
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=135

The female dwarf:
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=76

Ink

2006-06-14, 02:47 PM

And V is also drawn exactly like ZZ'dtri, who is male.

octobergirl

2006-06-14, 06:09 PM

And V is also drawn exactly like ZZ'dtri, who is male.

I agree. I noticed that one too.

Felinoid

2006-06-14, 09:22 PM

I would agree, except that just because someone is female doen't mean they've got D-cups. V could just be flat.

Holy_Knight

2006-06-15, 02:17 AM

...except for being half-camel, he just noticed V wasn't going into the restroom.

Just after that comment, Elan says: "Unless he's half-dromedary..."

So Elan does in fact perceive Vaarsuvius as a male.

Here's an interesting note: Has anyone who's actually in the Order ever questioned V's gender, other than Belkar? As far as I can remember, he's the only one to have ever actually stated that they saw V as ambiguously-gendered. All of the others have either indicated that they perceived him as one thing, or not said anything about it at all. In fact, now that I think about it, there's only one other character in the whole series that I can recall saying they were unsure about V's gender, and that's the horse parking ticket person. Am I right about that? I think it may be significant--I'll post more about it after I've thought some more.

Lord_Jadawin

2006-06-15, 03:52 PM

Um... well a) it's Rich not Rick and
b) Rich has stated somewhere on this board that yes, V had a gender at the start but the debate (and therefore the ambiguity) only started when the first mention of obscurity was made. As Rich said that was somewhere around comic #2 or #3.

I don't know if he said it on here, but he states it explicitly in one of the books (which are at home, so I don't know which one). I used to be firmly on the side of V as male, since the first few strips to me make it totally obvious that it was so (seriously, read the first 10 or 20 strips knowing that it's one or the other), but once I realized that the Giant was actively trying to confuse the issue the debate became utterly pointless.

Felinoid

2006-06-15, 04:13 PM

And V is also drawn exactly like ZZ'dtri, who is male.
ZZ'dtri is also an opposite, as well as the new half-elf boy. Dun dun DUNNNNN!!!

LordVader

2006-06-15, 05:18 PM

very true-hmm. could it be a foolish mortal has dicovered a carefully hidden secret?

Zita_G.

2006-06-16, 02:08 AM

I think V is gay. Thats why Haley lets him stay in the same room as her. It all makes sence. He's married to a guy and and isn't sure of how the others will react to him being gay. He's told Haley and she has sworn to keep it a secret. ^^ So yeah. V is a guy. That is gay. IT ALL MAKES SENCE!!!

razmafft1

2006-06-16, 02:47 AM

I think V's female, because in comic #3, he/she/it (depending on your point of few) apparently knows fashion. Plus, Zz'Dtri and the Half-Elf are male.

Nixie

2006-06-16, 12:18 PM

You make a good point (though I'm biased, cuz I see V as female). But, not to be a devil's advocate, not all girls have a fashion sense (I know a few at my school....)

[EDIT] 'w' to 'a'

Holy_Knight

2006-06-16, 02:46 PM

I think V's female, because in comic #3, he/she/it (depending on your point of few) apparently knows fashion. Plus, Zz'Dtri and the Half-Elf are male.
Of course, that comment could have been sarcasm, or just nicely listening to someone else despite not thinking what they're talking about is very important.

Anyway, here's something to ask yourself:

Think of people you know who speak and act like Vaarsuvius. Are these people mostly males, or females? Those kind of erudite know-it-all speeches and explanations of everything are way more typical of men than women.

Zita_G.

2006-06-16, 11:11 PM

I stand by my point of V being gay. :P I think that makes it so much easier

razmafft1

2006-06-17, 01:38 AM

What if V doesn't have a gender?! ???
It's feasable (though unlikely) that pure-Elves don't have a gender in the campaign world, but can reproduce regardless. Of course, that just made my own head spin, so...

Brett Wong

2006-06-17, 03:16 AM

i vote that its not going to be reveild

twerk_face

2006-06-17, 05:16 PM

Having dated someone whose gender I didn't know until we ended up in bed I can safely say it doesn't make a bit of difference.

on a similar note, i was once in an art class with someone named "kelly," who i wasn't sure whether was a girl or a boy. As some of you might know, Kelly is in fact an androgonys name, and although it is mor commonly used for girls, this person sort of looked like a guy. But, on the other hand, he/she had long hair. But, where i live, almost everyone his/her age had long hair. and my friend (who knew because he/she was in his class) would not tell me his/her sex, just to spite me. Eventually he told me, but i have since then forgotten, and so now I do not know.

CelestialStick

2006-06-17, 10:36 PM

V is male. I can't believe anyone's still doubting that. :D

Brett Wong

2006-06-18, 01:23 AM

Just after that comment, Elan says: "Unless he's half-dromedary..."

So Elan does in fact perceive Vaarsuvius as a male.

Here's an interesting note: Has anyone who's actually in the Order ever questioned V's gender, other than Belkar? As far as I can remember, he's the only one to have ever actually stated that they saw V as ambiguously-gendered. All of the others have either indicated that they perceived him as one thing, or not said anything about it at all. In fact, now that I think about it, there's only one other character in the whole series that I can recall saying they were unsure about V's gender, and that's the horse parking ticket person. Am I right about that? I think it may be significant--I'll post more about it after I've thought some more.

nale has.

Luinil_Carak

2006-06-24, 02:57 PM

Personally I think V is male.

I know there were several references to how Zz'dtri and the new-half elf were male, and therefore opposite, so V is female, but if you look at other opposites such as Roy and Thog and Haley and Sabine and Nale and Elan, they're of the same gender.

And not that this is big, but V almost always calls Haley Miss Starshine. That just seems like such a male mannerism. I mean, I only remember other guys in the strip saying it (like that 2nd level rogue and some other guy later on.)
And forgetting to name a familiar just seems rather masculine, too (154).
The face V makes in 237 when Haley makes the comment about it being 'roy's time of month' was pretty much the typical male reactionary face, too.

Yeah, that was my 2 cents.
Not that we'll ever know who is right ;D

charik

2006-06-24, 07:41 PM

I've had a thought about V's marriage, but since the thread title doesn't say [spoiler], I'll type it in beige.
Haley was the only one to already know that V is married. What if the two of them were the married couple, but it was an open marriage, which would leave Haley free to be in love with Elan without making complications in the relationship? 8)
Just sayin' ...

Sneak

2006-06-24, 07:47 PM

V has the gender of the plot.

Pelziges_Ohr

2006-06-25, 08:26 AM

I wonder what exactly would happen if V was to wear the "Girdle of Feminity/Masculinity".

Faticus

2006-06-25, 03:33 PM

I dont know why but V sounds like a chick to me.

Ebonwoulfe

2006-06-26, 09:04 AM

I always thought of V as female just because there are so few women in OotS that I think it would be good for there to be some more for balance. Lame reason, huh?

I wonder what exactly would happen if V was to wear the "Girdle of Feminity/Masculinity".

Probably absolutely nothing

Nixie

2006-06-26, 05:11 PM

I assume V is a girl. It's just that. From strip #1, I've thought that.

Plus, I know girls that tend to ramble on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and... you get my point?

Yes, I tend to ramble.

evileeyore

2006-06-26, 09:33 PM

Obligatory Gender Debate Reply Number 4.

Vaarsuvius is neither female nor male. Nay forsooth Vaarsuvius is beyond such paltry gender identification modes for Vaarsuvius is a much greater thing indeed. That which renders this entire discussion null and void and trembling before the august majesty of its revelation.

For indeed Vaarsuvius is an Elf.
A Power Mad Magic Obssessed Elf to be precise.
Nothing more need ever be said, your arguements are now null.

Please feel free to continue, as you always do.

CelestialStick

2006-06-27, 01:30 AM

I don't see what all the debate is about. V is obviously male. :D

charik

2006-06-27, 08:53 PM

I don't see what all the debate is about. V is obviously male. :D
So you said at the top of this very page. ;) Oh, and once again you've made the same spelling error, leaving the first two letters off that last word. ::)

CelestialStick

2006-06-27, 09:19 PM

So you said at the top of this very page. ;) Oh, and once again you've made the same spelling error, leaving the first two letters off that last word. ::)
I don't see what all the debate is about. Charik is obviously female. ;)

Messy

2006-06-28, 12:43 AM

I agree, Celestial. On both points. From the beginning of the comic I always just naturally assumed V was male, and even now could not picture him talking in a female voice, even if he was revealed as a female by the Giant.

Yes...both points. V is male and Charik is female. :)

charik

2006-06-28, 02:09 AM

Well, since you've obviously got mine wrong (obvious to me and any who know me), that's not looking good for your track records on guessing genders. Thus supporting the "V is female" side. ;D

What's interesting about the debate is that most people seem to have the opinion "I just took it for granted", rather than "V is {insert gender here} because of this that and the other reason". I didn't question V's gender any more than I did Haley's or Roy's.

CelestialStick

2006-06-28, 02:32 AM

ManoelSilva

2006-06-28, 09:10 AM

V has a minimum 18 intelligence score, he must be male.

blackfox

2006-06-28, 09:41 AM

On average, women are smarter than men. I would agree that there are probably more recognized male geniuses than recognized female geniuses, but there are many, many more mentally retarded males than mentally retarded females. Besides, part of the reason that more males ar recognized as geniuses is because of this outdated, pointless mentality that men are smarter than women. So many people are still caught up in this primitive mindset that some girls are actually held back because they're not 'supposed' to be intelligent. Trust me, I know about this, I was one of those girls.

The percentage chance for rolling an 18 on 3d6 is .46%. That means 99.54% of 3d6 rolls are not 18's. A IQ percentile of 99.54% is equivalent to an IQ of 139. I could name 5 female friends of mine off the top of my head that have an IQ at least that high. Not to brag, but I even have an IQ that high. So you can't tell V's gender by his intelligence.

For something only slightly relevant to this topic, The Grateful Dead used to sing this. (http://www3.clearlight.com/~acsa/introjs.htm?/~acsa/songfile/MAN1SMAR.HTM) I believe it was originally a South American folk song.

My own view? If the characters had players, Vaarsuvius would be the powergamer who couldn't be bothered to write down something as inconsequential as gender on his character sheet, when he could be perfecting his spell list and the rest of his stats. There's a good reason that the D+D system doesn't put gender restrictions on abilities.

ManoelSilva

2006-06-28, 09:44 AM

if you are so smart you know that the male brain is bigger than the female.

blackfox

2006-06-28, 09:52 AM

Size of the brain has nothing to do with intelligence. I thought that it was common knowledge that it's the density of the brain tissue that was the main factor in intelligence. But I could be wrong, getting this from such a disreputable source as Johns Hopkins University. :P

ManoelSilva

2006-06-28, 10:00 AM

yes... yes...
so dogs that have their brains the size of a nut are the most intelligence animals in Earth.

blackfox

2006-06-28, 10:05 AM

Some dogs are more intelligent than some humans. Border collies, while not all that large, are some of the most intelligent dogs I've met, and definitely qualify for that 'smarter than some humans' category. Again, the size of the brain has nothing to do with intelligence.

I would agree that dogs are among the most intelligent animals on earth, but I wouldn't do them the honor of being the most intelligent, at least not while there's still chimpanzees, dolphins, and cats around.

ManoelSilva

2006-06-28, 10:10 AM

i'm not surprise you think that dogs have a lot of intelligence, its a relative comparison.

blackfox

2006-06-28, 10:18 AM

...I noticed that...like, three posts ago I noticed that...

Anyways, back on topic. If I had to assign a gender to V, I'd say V is female, because, for one thing, V boards with Haley. (comic #123) Also, no male in his right mind would submit anyone, even a chimera, to Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion. (#20, I believe.)

orcmonk89

2006-06-28, 11:28 AM

Hmm.... I always put V down as a male, until I noticed that V is never listed as either. I then went back and re-read V's part as neutral. It was really tricky to tell. I'd actually like us never to find out, so in days of old, long after Rich's retirement, we can return here and still discuss it.

Great going Rich!

Messy

2006-06-28, 12:44 PM

Among humans, I don't think there is an intelligence difference between males and females (I could be wrong, I'm no professor ::)). Just because V's intelligence is 18 does not mean he is male, although I am in support of V being male. It likewise does not mean that he is female.

According to BlackFox, and he's probably correct, the density of the brain tissue determines your intelligence...? Obviously dogs' brains are so much smaller (and less dense I would guess) that it makes them less intelligent than humans.

Anyway, V is male. And yes, other than the fact that "I took it for granted", Charik, "I do have reasons". Comic #3 -- Haley talks about fashion and lime green boots of speed, and from V's response it sounds like he was trying to shrug her off without annoying her.

Also, I am certain that from V's actions and from what Roy called him (V-man), during the beginning of the comic Rich had every intention of making V male. It's good he never gave anything important away, because then he saw people arguing about V's gender on the boards, as it was not very obvious. So he built on it, and now it's a funny addition to OOTS, and an eternal discussion on the boards. Which is what I'm doing right now 8).

Overall, I'm still holding my place. V is male, no doubts about it here. :D

Arian

2006-06-28, 09:42 PM

there are many, many more mentally retarded males than mentally retarded females.

Males have got the rough end of the stick when it comes to genetic disorders, unfortunately for them.

If the damaged or faulty gene is carried on the Y chromosome, only males can inherit it.

If it's carried on the X, a female can use the functioning copy of the gene on her other chromosome, so she may experience no effects or a lesser one; it may only show at all if she has it on both chromosomes.

Men get the double whammy.

BelkarsDagger

2006-06-28, 09:50 PM

I simply can't comprehend V being male. Just no. She strikes me as female because of a few points:

-She only bunks with Haley. Only. Why would she only bunk with a member of the opposite sex, but still have a mate? And not be cheating?
-In strip... 3 I think it was, she was discussing Boots of Speed with Haley. She makes it sound as if she has a female's "fashion sense". A male wouldn't really be that interested, or turned down a magic item because of its color.
-When Celia was shopping for clothes to wear on her date with Roy, V was there, helping her decide. Why would a male help a female to buy clothing for a date with another male? Wouldnt it be better to ask Haley for help, and have her write it down instead of say it, is V was male?

Arian

2006-06-28, 09:58 PM

Messy

2006-06-28, 10:18 PM

The problem with saying "no-one ever gives their reasons" is that now we're going to have a run-through of all the most popular reasons AGAIN. If you want to see reasons, we've got four threads full. :D

Yeah, but then you have to read through hundreds of pages of part opinion part spam part random speech.

Finwe

2006-06-28, 10:18 PM

On average, women are smarter than men. I would agree that there are probably more recognized male geniuses than recognized female geniuses, but there are many, many more mentally retarded males than mentally retarded females. Besides, part of the reason that more males ar recognized as geniuses is because of this outdated, pointless mentality that men are smarter than women. So many people are still caught up in this primitive mindset that some girls are actually held back because they're not 'supposed' to be intelligent. Trust me, I know about this, I was one of those girls.

The biggest reason that there are no recognized female geniuses is that the femenist movement occured such a short time ago (relatively speaking). How often does someone come along who can be called a real genius? One every hundred years or so?

Also, did you know that the ratio of women to men going to college in the U.S. is 3:2?

--------------------------------And now, for my next trick, on topic discussion!-------------------------------------

Personally I've never thought that V could be anything other than male. Elf men are always portrayed as being effemanent, so I always assumed that Rich was just playing off of that, until I came to the forums and found a huge debate, that is.

Vaynor

2006-06-28, 10:32 PM

Messy

2006-06-28, 10:43 PM

When I first started reading OOTS, before I joined the forums, I didn't even know this was a debate, I just assumed V was a girl. Mostly because there was only one other girl and it just made sense to me.

Exactly. I have the same problem. I just "naturally assumed" when I first started reading OOTS that V was male. Then I saw the debate and I suddenly understood the bathroom joke and some others.
That's why this debate can be overrated sometimes -- not many people bring real REASONS, they just say it "natrually" came to them. (Not that it didn't, it just doesn't make good discussion.)

Which is why if you're going to post in this thread, it'd be nice if you gave some evidence as to your opinion of V's gender.

V is male because he forgot to name his familiar. "I haven't named any of my other class features." Yeah, but it's ALIVE. Seems like a very masculine action. It's not like he doesn't have the time to do it either, being an elf. And he also doesn't care much (and mistakenly calls the bird "my familiar" once more after that, where Haley corrects him) when Haley names him Blackwing; you'd think it'd be more of a female action to defend the fact that it's "MY familiar" and I want to name it, while the male would be all, "Whatever, name it whatever you like".

CelestialStick

2006-06-29, 12:59 AM

Women are on average smarter than men? Some dogs are smarter than some human beings? Where do you come up with this stuff?

Messy

2006-06-29, 12:38 PM

Women are on average smarter than men? Some dogs are smarter than some human beings? Where do you come up with this stuff?

Hmm...sitting around all day typing on the forums on the GiantITP website like the geeks we are I would guess makes our brains stimulate and come up with new, crazy ideas ;D

BelkarsDagger

2006-06-29, 10:01 PM

Women are on average smarter than men? Some dogs are smarter than some human beings? Where do you come up with this stuff?

I think women have an average IQ higher than the average IQ of men, but I am not sure. A very very smart dog can technically be smarter than a really really really really stupid human...

blackfox

2006-06-29, 10:04 PM

What Mind Flayer said. :)

Messy

2006-06-29, 10:08 PM

I'm sure it's very very rare that a dog can be more intelligent with any human. Even people who have learning disabilities or brain damage are usually smarter than any dog. Although I'm sure it is possible.

Edit: All this "supposedly" so we can argue about V's gender ;D

BelkarsDagger

2006-06-29, 10:11 PM

By 'smarter' I'm talking IQ terms, but yes, it is extremely rare.

I have also had a nagging feeling since I first picked up the book (my intro to OOTS) that V was female. Since there was only one other female. Most groups that have 6 people are 4 males, 2 females, and this balanced it out.

CelestialStick

2006-07-01, 12:35 AM

Hmm...sitting around all day typing on the forums on the GiantITP website like the geeks we are I would guess makes our brains stimulate and come up with new, crazy ideas ;D

LOL. It's like drugs, only legal. :D

Messy

2006-07-01, 12:37 AM

LOL. It's like drugs, only legal. :D

Actually, there's a new law being passed by the President even now that says that being a geek by posting on a webcomic website consistently is illegal, so... ;)

CelestialStick

2006-07-01, 12:37 AM

I think women have an average IQ higher than the average IQ of men, but I am not sure. A very very smart dog can technically be smarter than a really really really really stupid human...

I'm pretty sure that men on average have higher IQs because leftists are always whining that IQ tests are skewed in favor of "white males."

As for a dog with a higher IQ than a human, I suppose it might be possible for some top-end dog to have a higher IQ than a retarded human infant or something, but beyond that I'd have to see something substantive (and peer-reviewed) that demonstrated dogs with higher IQs than humans.

AmbrMerlinus

2006-07-14, 10:33 PM

My brain tells me that V is female, mostly because I've thought that since the beginning (Haley being the only girl in the group otherwise), and because in that one strip at the inn with the magical globes and the misunderstanding with all the boys listening through the walls thinking they were hearing something else (yeah, that one. Remember that one?), V and Haley were in the room together while Belkar, Roy, Elan, and Durkan were all crunched into another room. If the party was not being seperated out by gender, then wouldn't it make more sense to have three people in each of the two rooms so there wouldn't be unequal/unfair crowding? But ultimately, my belief that V is female stems from the fact that I am a girl and my subconcious automatically tags unidentified genders as the same. Also, all of V's supposedly masculine traits are traits I have as well (arrogance, impatience, violent tendancies...).

Of course, both V and I could be that "one-in-ten."

None of this really matters to me, though, because I find the gender debate in the comic to be really, really funny, and I almost hope it never gets revealed.

Calamity

2006-07-15, 06:32 PM

Well, to finally say so.... I think V is female, have done since I saw him/her (i'm only saying this because I don't *know* that (s)he's female, (oh but i'm just gonna use the V now, because the brackets are already annoying)

Reason #1:
Strip #123 would be only half as funny if V were male (although I suppose when you think about it, it could be)

Reason #2:
V and Belkar's Feud would be a lot more interesting (to me) if V were female.

Reason #3:
V always rooms with Haley, now some people have said well maybe he is male and is *with* Haley. Eh? Haley is in love with Elan, and i can only think of V being Haley's female freind whom she can share her many secrets with (apart from one ;)), and that seems to be the only thing that makes sense to me.

Unorthodox

2006-07-15, 07:18 PM

I've always thought of V as male, but I belive you have convinced me, Calamity.

Arian

2006-07-16, 12:39 AM

Not on topic for this thread, I know, but:

Somehow, giving him a new weapon changes his name from "Roy" to "GreataxeFighterGuy". Go figure.
As a matter of fact, his name was "GreataxeFighterGuy" before it ever got to be "Roy". :)

The avatars (at least the first batch) predate the comic.

Mewtarthio

2006-10-12, 03:46 PM

Despite being male myself, I assumed that V was female when I first read the comic, primarily do to his/her hair. I still think (s)he's female, and the best evidence I have is her explanation of Belkar's "binary mind": If V only wants to ensure that Belkar doesn't lust after him/her (even if it means Belkar's hatred), why not just inform Belkar of V's true gender? Belkar doesn't strike me as the most tolerant of individuals, and I don't think he's gay, either. Besides, the Order's seen him/her naked before, right after Durkon undid the Baleful Polymorph.

My favorite theory in this thread, though, is the theory that V's player is a powergamer who didn't bother picking a gender. That's just priceless.

Cifer

2006-10-13, 09:53 AM

If the party was not being seperated out by gender, then wouldn't it make more sense to have three people in each of the two rooms so there wouldn't be unequal/unfair crowding?
V seems to be the epitome of "unequal/unfair" to me. The reason for her rooming with Ms. Starshine would be that they are good friends and Haley knows V is that asexual it won't try anything anyway.

Besides, the Order's seen him/her naked before, right after Durkon undid the Baleful Polymorph.
Actually, it didn't. V hid behind the dragon's tail and I expect Durkon to be tactful enough not to look.

Natsilani

2006-10-13, 11:15 AM

V is male because he forgot to name his familiar. "I haven't named any of my other class features." Yeah, but it's ALIVE. Seems like a very masculine action. It's not like he doesn't have the time to do it either, being an elf. And he also doesn't care much (and mistakenly calls the bird "my familiar" once more after that, where Haley corrects him) when Haley names him Blackwing; you'd think it'd be more of a female action to defend the fact that it's "MY familiar" and I want to name it, while the male would be all, "Whatever, name it whatever you like".

I'm a female. I haven't named any of my pets (gerbils, hermit crabs, cat) until my friends (both guys and girls) pestered me about it so much that I just told them to name them. And I responded to the naming just the same as V... The name of somebody or something is the least interesting bit of information. More important is their personality (and I'm including animals in this) or its purpose.

When I read the comic fist, I assumed V was male and the Giant was playing on the effeminate elf stereotype. When the characters began questioning V's sex, this assumption of the Giant's intent fell away, and I began wondering what I perceived V as. I've since mostly thought of V as female because I feel that I have so much in common with him/her, and its sorta a self-validation thingy my brain does, I guess.

Furthermore, I don't think we will ever find out about V's sex - that would require a very non-PG panel. We can only speculate on his/her gender, and that has been evidenced to be either bi-gendered or gender-neutral just by the confusion V generated. I would lean more towards bi-gendered, because she/he has his/her moments where you think "I've got it! He/She has to be male (or female)!". Gender-neutral would most likely have no such moments at all, or at most one or two. Of course, it wouldn't be nearly as funny then.

Also, all of V's supposedly masculine traits are traits I have as well (arrogance, impatience, violent tendancies...).
Yep yep, me too.

None of this really matters to me, though, because I find the gender debate in the comic to be really, really funny, and I almost hope it never gets revealed.
/signed on hoping that V's gender never gets revealed

Dracon_Wind

2006-10-14, 12:14 PM

Vaarsuvius is an elf, and most elves consider themselves above human ethics, politics, and genders. Therefore, Vaarsuvius is perceived by the Stick as asexual, which is why Haley is so inclined to open up to it.

Tric

2006-10-15, 08:33 PM

I know what V is. Those of you who play D&D know of Mialee, and her strange body form (and clothes). Well, she's not really an elf, but a mutant cricket. Same thing goes for Vaarsivius. There's no gender for mutant crickets, who reproduce asexually.

And elves are known for their beauty. It would be obvious what gender it was (just look at LotR for examples) if V really was an elf.

So no, it's a genderless mutant cricket. The whole issue is in fact a trick question, since it's no elf to begin with.

the_tick_rules

2006-10-15, 08:49 PM

I've leaned towards female myself. Rooming only with Haley. Offering fashion advice towards Celia when she wanted to put the moves on Roy. Though maybe V's a guy batting for the other team lol.

Raven_Nightwind

2006-10-15, 09:38 PM

I'm thinking female also, for all of the reasons mentioned. For some reason, I just can't seem to grasp the concept of the Elven wizard who likes the sound of his/her voice too much being a male. If that made any sense.

Querzis

2006-10-15, 10:10 PM

Well I know lots of man who act like V but I dont know any women who act like V so I would say he is a male. Beside, he is married and no male elf would marry V when there is so many really hot female elf around :). Anyway, there is only 2 people in the comics who know the truth : Haley and V husband/wife. If Haley would stop using him/her nickname (V) all the time, we could have known the truth a long time ago.

Tamis

2006-10-16, 12:59 PM

I've always thought V was male, never even questioned it until I started coming here and noticing the way Rich started using it in the comic. Now I don't really know anymore. When people type (s)he or s/he, I still tend to read it as she, and that influences my thoughts about him/her.

I still think that V male somehow, but I have adopted a way of thinking of him/her as a little bit of both.

Snake-Aes

2006-10-16, 01:31 PM

given that I've dated a woman that behaves EXACTLY like him(verbose, arrogant, yet caring and friendly)...I assumed V to be male up to... page 50? 60? after that the ambiguous side of V shone in my mind... I couldn't really decide since then.

That, or V is an avatar of Mask, looking different for each person :O

Aeyamar

2006-10-16, 08:00 PM

I'll go with my Latin knowledge and say that since Vaarsuvius's name ends in -us, he must be male.

Lord_Kimboat

2006-10-16, 10:53 PM

I don't know if this has been mentioned before but in comic 9 Roy refers to him as "V-Man". Maybe this was before the Giant wasn't sure about the gender issue.

Heads_or_Tails

2006-10-17, 03:32 AM

I'll go with my Latin knowledge and say that since Vaarsuvius's name ends in -us, he must be male.

Which is perfectly valid, although Elvish isnt, in fact, Latin.

Personally, I thought female until I saw one of these threads, and I was never able to look at V as any one gender since.

Raven_Nightwind

2006-10-17, 06:37 AM

I think it's funny how Roy, Elan, and Sabine think Vaarsuvius is a male, and Nale and many NPCs think it's a female.

Sir_Norbert

2006-10-17, 07:46 AM

I don't know if this has been mentioned before but in comic 9 Roy refers to him as "V-Man". Maybe this was before the Giant wasn't sure about the gender issue.
It's always amused me that people take this to be evidence. It's a nickname. In college I had a friend called Verity who was nicknamed "V-Man", and she was not only most definitely female but also drop-dead gorgeous into the bargain. ;)

Grod_The_Giant

2006-10-17, 09:53 AM

Allandaros

2006-10-17, 11:04 AM

V has always struck me as male, not female. And in reading the strip, even with the stated "V's gender is ambiguous and YOU SHALL NEVER KNOW BWAHAHAHA", I continue to think so.

No particular reason, that's just the way the character strikes me.

Imhotep

2006-10-17, 02:31 PM

Not that it matters, but he's probably male. Why? Well, besides the fact that female characters in the comic are drawn in a very feminine way, even when in robes, he has a male name.

Vaarsuvius.

EndlessEnnui

2006-10-17, 04:54 PM

So, it's well-discussed that Rich has deliberately created a gender-neutral character in V. The only question is whether V, as a dynamic character, will eventually have its gender-neutral assignment revised.

Actually, I take that back. Whether a confirmed gender assignment occur isn't the only question -- another other big question is what sort of gender will be assigned if/when such an event occurs. I'm of the opinion that this possibility is a distant, distant one, simply because the gender-neutral conceit is a fun one for V, and not likely to run dry anytime soon.

I would guess that if a gender is assigned, and that if it is chosen from the standard male/female paradigm, that the choice will be male. I make this guess merely based on the thought that for many characters, name is predictive of identity, and V's name ends in a Latin masculine convention. Certainly, I doubt that whatever language V was named in has the same conventions as latin, but the choice of the name was made by someone whose primary language is one with heavy subtextual Latin influence. Thus, it seems likely that even if V was generated with the intent of being gender-neutral, the inherent associations of the name used to identify this character may be considered indicators of subconscious authorial proclivities towards a masculine destiny.

Logic

2006-10-17, 06:09 PM

Almost every strip I percieve V to be male.
And the Giant wants us to view V as gender neutral. It makes a more interesting character.

Mewtarthio

2006-10-17, 06:14 PM

V always struck me as female- maybe more of a tought girl at some points, but still a girl. Here's a big piece of evidence (from comic number 3)

Haley: So, the Boots of Speed were totally powerful, but they were, like, lime green.

V: Indeed. A most grave conundrum you faced.

That is not the kind of statement a guy makes.

That's not exactly that kind of statement a girl makes, either. That's the kind of statement a sapient, anthropomorphic thesaurus makes. And it's kinda hard to tell whether V's being sarcastic or serious.

Wolfram

2006-10-17, 06:27 PM

Nothing I can phrase in any non-inchohate manner, but my overall impression is that V is female. Maybe it's his/her emotional sensitivity of Haley's comfort around him. Thin leads, but that's where my money would go.

ishi

2006-10-17, 06:48 PM

I have always, even before realizing that it was up for debate, thought that V was female, due to the way that (s)he interacts with Haley.

That said, I don't think it really matters, or that it will be revealed anytime soon, since one of V's defining traits is to be gender-ambiguous.

Raven_Nightwind

2006-10-17, 09:39 PM

That said, I don't think it really matters, or that it will be revealed anytime soon, since one of V's defining traits is to be gender-ambiguous.

Which is one of the reasons he/she/it is my favourite character. I doubt I'd like Vaarsuvius as much if I knew his/her/its gender.

Imhotep

2006-10-19, 09:28 AM

Other characters in the comic seem to think he's male, too.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html

Sir_Norbert

2006-10-19, 09:37 AM

But other characters (e.g. Nale) think V is female. You'll need better evidence than that.

Nashua

2006-10-19, 10:24 AM

/Quote/"That's not exactly that kind of statement a girl makes, either. That's the kind of statement a sapient, anthropomorphic thesaurus makes." /End Quote/
Not sure how to do quotes...I suck at computer literacy. Anyway, please allow me to LOL! Next time I roll character, I'll apply the Anthropomorphic template from Savage Species to an Awakened thesaurus construct---then I can REALLY throw the book at the bad guys!
Oh, and my opinion of V's gender changes from strip to strip. I think that Rich's choice to make a gender-uncertain character in the first place is six shades of AWSOME. You'd never see something like that on the comic strip pages of the newspaper(at least, not in most places in America)! Thanks Rich, keep keep the mystery alive.
Edit: Okay, I now figured out how to "Quote" but still I don't know how to do so retroactively in the "Modify" text box. Can it even be done?

Snake-Aes

2006-10-19, 10:27 AM

there's a tiny little "Quote" written by the post header, that's how you quote a text

V... I don't think V would ever be sarcastic with Haley, at least hir's not shown such behaviour yet.

Lord_Kimboat

2006-10-19, 10:35 AM

Well despite it being a nickname and Sir Norbert knowing a girl called 'V Man' (I still think that's a little pecular) my own humble opinion is that for the first few comics, Rich thought of V as a guy.

After a while he started playing up the femininity a bit, the whole prissy elf thing, and then thought, 'hey, I never did say that he was a guy', and started this whole vagueness to add depth to the character.

Snake-Aes

2006-10-19, 11:03 AM

Works the same for me, I like it \o/

Imhotep

2006-10-19, 11:13 AM

Women are drawn in a very feminine way even sticky, even in robes. V is not.

His name ends in -us

Other characters refer to him as a "he".

Everyone knows male elves might look feminine, and not the other way around ::)

As evidence goes, it's suggested he's a "he". If for any reason one might want to think otherwise, it's not a crime. Strips where there is confusion about it have been fun.

Snake-Aes

2006-10-19, 11:21 AM

Bother reading the whole thing and you'll see that the name termination isn't even closely linked to hir gender.

Doglord

2006-10-19, 11:22 AM

I would say male, because only one character has reffered to V as "she" so unless every character is wrong, Id say male.

Moechi_Vill

2006-10-19, 12:06 PM

MALE!

Stop making me say "her" at times; V is a fe- I mean er... V IS A MALE!

Varsuuvious (sp) was obviously a male before The Giant found a joke to pimp!

Sir_Norbert

2006-10-19, 01:45 PM

Well despite it being a nickname and Sir Norbert knowing a girl called 'V Man' (I still think that's a little pecular) my own humble opinion is that for the first few comics, Rich thought of V as a guy.
Maybe I should add that my opinion is the same as yours :D but I do want to emphasise that we really don't know! So when someone comes out with "I'm sure he's male" or "I'm sure she's female", I like to make a couple of points on the other side to keep the balance ;) It's tremendous fun how long this has been spun out for and I want it to keep going... so long as it IS revealed at the end.

dragongirl13

2006-10-19, 11:42 PM

I think V is female because of certain subtler reasons rather than obvious traits people think of as masculine, which are probably stereotype-influenced. Don't let stereotypes cloud your vision-they don't apply to everyone. I'm female and I have lots of traits you would probably say are masculine.

President Legos

2006-10-30, 05:56 PM

Silkenfist

2006-10-30, 07:14 PM

Male!

1. The name clearly hints towards male. The roman -us indicates masculinity.

2. Both of V's linear guild opposites are male.

3. There are several references to him as being male. In #306, the wizards refer to him as "he" and in #9, Roy calls him "V-Man".

This is the hard evidence. I don't want to examine his behaviour in detail and analyse how certain traits are male/female. There are no unequivocal hints towards V being female but several towards him being male. I have yet to see an argument that is better than "V's behaviour looks kinda female to me".

JackHunter

2007-01-28, 07:31 AM

Male!

1. The name clearly hints towards male. The roman -us indicates masculinity.

2. Both of V's linear guild opposites are male.

3. There are several references to him as being male. In #306, the wizards refer to him as "he" and in #9, Roy calls him "V-Man".

Dattebayo!(You Fail It!)

Counter point 1. V is Elven. So roman naming indications does not necessarily apply. (My name's Jack. Confused people calls me Jackie. So... Name =/= gender)

Counter point 2. Roy's counter part is half-orc, Durkon's counter part is female.

Counter point 3. There are comics where V is referred to as a she ;

Male
Roy (#9)
Elan (#87)
Nale (#252)
2 Azure wizards (#306)

Female
Potion seller (#135)
Dwarven assassin (#240)
Sabine (#252)

Unclear
Horse valet (#173)
Belkar (#177)

Score: 4-3-2

Setra

2007-01-28, 07:55 AM

Amon Star

2007-01-28, 07:59 AM

So I think she's a girl. Why? I just kinda get a vibe from V. This and her analysis of Belkar's mind (lust or hate), leans toward her being a girl. All who Belkar had lusted after where girls so V should be too.

There's no evidence that :belkar: does lust after :vaarsuvius:. The Event, as V calls it, was caused by alcohol. V's rationalization of it is as bad as :miko:'s logic in 406.

Setra

2007-01-28, 08:03 AM

There's no evidence that :belkar: does lust after :vaarsuvius:. The Event, as V calls it, was caused by alcohol. V's rationalization of it is as bad as :miko:'s logic in 406.

Alchohol, helping men get laid since 1234 B.C.. Seriously though, I agree, a feminine male would certainly appear female under the influence. Once a friend of a friend got so drunk he couldn't tell the difference, and was hitting on everyone, males included.

The next day was fun, since he did not remember anything.

JackHunter

2007-01-28, 08:19 AM

V was referred to only as male for quite a long time. Leading me to believe that the only reason the joke is even in existant is because some people somehow thought he was female.

It's kind of how like the word Gay originally meant "Happy", but because of a sheer number of idiots thinking it meant "homosexual" even the official definition changed.

While I will agree that 123( the one scene in the Inn with the orbs) strips is a long time. But they have referred to V as a male only a few times. And only seen clearly in 2 strips. as noted back on page two by Wrecan.

Though wiki is well... Wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay
The word did not change that simply.

Iranon

2007-01-28, 09:12 AM

My pet theory involves an absent-minded player and a sadistic GM

player:

Iranon

2007-01-28, 09:23 AM

Sage in the Playground

2007-01-28, 10:24 AM

Ave

2007-01-28, 11:38 AM

Well, in #123 V says 'as you wish' :) It clearly shows he is MALE.
I would have said the same, hahaha.

Setra

2007-01-28, 11:47 AM

While I will agree that 123( the one scene in the Inn with the orbs) strips is a long time. But they have referred to V as a male only a few times. And only seen clearly in 2 strips. as noted back on page two by Wrecan.

Though wiki is well... Wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay
The word did not change that simply.

Yes but how often to you really refer to a friend/acquaintence(sp?) by his gender? Usually you say his name.

People who know call me John, or Setra and I cannot recall being called "He", or "Him", by someone I know.

Edit: I just thought something, I know this is counter-productive to my arguement but...

People argue that boobs could have something to do with your Charisma Score. Haley and Miko are known to have fair Charisma, and also pronounced breasts. V however is known to have low cha, so a flat chest, presuming V is female?

I still think V is male but I think it's an interesting thought.

Amon Star

2007-01-29, 11:45 AM

Alchohol, helping men get laid since 1234 B.C.. Seriously though, I agree, a feminine male would certainly appear female under the influence. Once a friend of a friend got so drunk he couldn't tell the difference, and was hitting on everyone, males included.

The next day was fun, since he did not remember anything.

That does sound alot like what happened to :belkar:. He couldn't remember The Event either. I'm so glad that alcohol never makes me lose my memory.

The best I could come up with involves a cheeky GM and an absentminded player:

:smallamused: : Hmm. What is this - Alignment: Male, Gender: True Neutral?

:smallredface: : Oops, I changed the layout on my character sheets and forgot... let me correct it

:smallamused: : I don't think so. Where would we end if we changed fundamental and defining traits of our characters on a whim?

LOL!

Vondre

2007-01-29, 11:34 PM

Awright. New to these forums, and it's time for me two cents. Er, coppers.

V has always struck me as a male - a male much like my friends and me, who are mostly actors. His rants of terrible death that will rain upon his enemies and especially the 'cast comic' representation of V - 'and each one would drive you mad! MAD!!' - are mirrors of my own behavior.

To those who cite the Boots of Speed conversation, V's reply is completely typical for a verbose male who is very good friends with the female speaker - sympathetic, making allowances for the teller to continue, without directly getting involved in the conversation.

To those who cite V's bunking with Haley - if indeed V is male, then that does *not* mean that he instantly tries to sleep with her. V is happily married and is a non-sexual good friend of Haley's. Though it may be unthinkable for some males out there, elven psychology is different from human, and their sexual drive may be less intense or even nonexistent; we cannot know.

To conclude: V's actions are perfectly explained if viewed through the lens of a sensitive, verbose, dramatic, vocally-androgynous male.

In other words, me.

Setra

2007-01-29, 11:36 PM

If on the off chance V is proven female, I'll never let you forget saying V is like you.

No offense, I'm just like that.

MReav

2007-01-29, 11:39 PM

I think V cast Disintegrate on the dragon just to prevent Durkon from casting Speak with Dead.

GrayMatter

2007-01-30, 12:08 AM

Well, I debated internally for quite awhile over whether to share this. It's really kinda fun to know you know the answer to something when a bunch of people are debating it back and forth :) But I'm just so good hearted and all, I have to tell you.

The Giant has revealed the answer in a comic. I'm not saying which one, but he totally did clearly, unmistakably include a reference to V's gender which would absolutely be accurate.

I didn't see it on first reading. Or the third reading, for that matter. I think it's because "The Reference" identified the gender as the one I was convinced of anyways, so I just glossed over it. But the fourth reading I stopped and said "Hey! That's THE PROOF!" Wow, I know V's gender! I was chortling for 5 minutes, all happy with myself for catching it. Which goes to show you that no matter how old you are, you can still act like a child on a sugar high when nobody's looking :D

Giant, if you read this, my congratulations. You set the bar really high on this one :D

MonkOfAnarchy

2007-01-30, 12:09 AM

Just my two cents, but I assumed V was female for a long time. The gender question never occured to me, and the lizards anatomy joke just confused me.

dragongirl13

2007-01-30, 12:28 AM

Gaah! How BLIND can people be to not see that V is female? And I guessed something a book before it happened once, so I think you should listen.

V is a lot like me, and I have a good understanding of other people (but V does not share my capacity to guess gender) and I can piece together certain things that V has said and done.

V hates Belkar liking her-a common girl's response to a guy having a crush on her when she's married or has a bf is "oh, no". V rooms only with Haley, a thing that supports my theory. And, in case you haven't noticed, each original adventuring party has had four males and two females in it, if you count V as a female. The data is shown here:

Original OOTS:
Male: Roy, Durkon, Elan, and Belkar
Female: V and Haley

Original Linear Guild:
Male: Nale, Thog, Zz'dtri, and Yikyik
Female: Sabine and Hilgya

Original Order of the Scribble:
Male: Soon, Kraagor, Girard, and Dorukan
Female: Lirian and Serini

Setra

2007-01-30, 02:21 AM

Gaah! How BLIND can people be to not see that V is female? And I guessed something a book before it happened once, so I think you should listen.
Even if you think you are correct, you cannot prove it, so do not act like it is already fact.

V hates Belkar liking her-a common girl's response to a guy having a crush on her when she's married or has a bf is "oh, no".
Last I checked, any straight guy would hate Belkar kissing them.

V rooms only with Haley, a thing that supports my theory. I for one would rather room with Haley than Belkar, Roy, or Elan. Durkon is cool though, but I am not V.

And, in case you haven't noticed, each original adventuring party has had four males and two females in it, if you count V as a female. The data is shown here:

Original OOTS:
Male: Roy, Durkon, Elan, and Belkar
Female: V and Haley

Original Linear Guild:
Male: Nale, Thog, Zz'dtri, and Yikyik
Female: Sabine and Hilgya

Original Order of the Scribble:
Male: Soon, Kraagor, Girard, and Dorukan
Female: Lirian and Serini

It could very well be a coincidence.

kialos

2007-02-07, 03:39 PM

Well... I have an Idea... maybe...

Mordaedil

2007-02-07, 04:39 PM

Sabine refers to V as "girl" although while intoxicated. V had to hide behind the dragon's tail while dressing, and has a very feminine hair (typical in the females in the strips) and referred to the life-companion as 'mate', typically insinuating a male, which one would assume is the way V would speak of someone.

Despite that, I still can't clearly decide. I'm also a fan of the theory that the "player is female" and the other players forget that the character is supposed to be male.

Oh well.

Corp

2007-02-07, 04:50 PM

V always struck me as being female. It was only when I peaked in the forums that I noticed there was an actually debate raging about V's gender.

kialos

2007-02-07, 05:10 PM

I'm sticking with V being an Hermaphrodite

GrayMatter

2007-02-07, 05:41 PM

Sabine refers to V as "girl" although while intoxicated.

Hey, you got it too! That's "The Reference" that I was yaddering about.
Sabine looks right at V in the bar and says "Sister". I even put a hint in the line "Giant.... You set the bar really high..." just to be extra sneakily smug with myself :D

Since Sabine is supernatural and her senses can probably penetrate even illusions, I'm taking it that she would be right about V's gender, drunk or sober.

416365416c

2007-02-07, 06:02 PM

Hey, you got it too! That's "The Reference" that I was yaddering about.
Sabine looks right at V in the bar and says "Sister". I even put a hint in the line "Giant.... You set the bar really high..." just to be extra sneakily smug with myself :D

Since Sabine is supernatural and her senses can probably penetrate even illusions, I'm taking it that she would be right about V's gender, drunk or sober.

Sabine also refers to V as Male, in comic #252 she refers to V as "the elf dude". Even with her supernatural senses, she still has no clue.

Jannex

2007-02-07, 07:29 PM

My impression has always been that V is male.

I don't think the bit with the doily would've been nearly as hilarious if V had been female. A woman doing serious research on a bit of lacy decoration... meh. A guy doing serious research on a bit of lacy decoration, and coming to the conclusion that it holds the key to ultimate power over the cosmos--comedy gold!

Silverlocke980

2007-02-08, 12:41 AM

It would be most interesting if V was male, actually. A woman displaying all of V's traits would be "breaking out of the box" by having aggressive traits (like loving the smell of dead enemy in the morning). While a perfectly commendable character and well-done in many other places, that latter is the point as to why I prefer V as a male: this first character has been done already, and well to boot.

A man displaying V's traits, on the other hand, would be a man with highly sensitive traits and an utter resistance to trying Halley in any way- a man who a young girl would trust alone with her in a room, while sleeping. That makes him both a man of high integrity- and good fashion sense.

Kaiox

2007-02-08, 01:01 AM

V always struck me as a guy, an androgynous guy, but a guy nonetheless.

and I don't understand what V rooming with Haley has to do with anything. Contrary to popular belief, not all males think with their nether regions and have a bit of fun when a girl is sleeping in the same room.

Silverlocke980

2007-02-08, 01:03 AM

Geode

2007-02-10, 03:53 AM

Here's a new argument (http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/8454/mfaf9.jpg) to drive everyone nuts for a while :smallamused:

(Yes, I know it's trivial. Just threw it together for fun.)

Setra

2007-02-10, 04:43 AM

factotum

2007-02-10, 04:57 AM

Here's a new argument (http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/8454/mfaf9.jpg) to drive everyone nuts for a while :smallamused:

(Yes, I know it's trivial. Just threw it together for fun.)

Isn't the differing eye level just a consequence of the differing hairstyles? The females with the lower eyes also have much lower fringes to their hair than the men do. If you put the eyes that low with a high fringe they'd look like some sort of mutant...

Geode

2007-02-10, 05:51 PM

Hmm, good point. *Remembers something and goes looking*...
Ok, what about Roy and the belt of gender changing? Compare the eye placement of male Roy in #234 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0234.html) and female Roy in the first two panels of #235 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0235.html) before (s)he wore the mop.

(@^^. Yeah, maybe elves are drawn differently.)

StickArc

2007-03-05, 12:33 AM

I apologize if this has been mentioned before, I havn't read the entire post.

In episode #306
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html
The wizard at the end says to "let 'him' sleep it off". being a wizard, he may know more about elven gender. Of course, he may just be as confused as we all are.

bluish_wolf

2007-03-05, 12:37 AM

tanonev

2007-03-05, 02:26 AM

Logic

2007-03-05, 04:19 AM

The best I could come up with involves a cheeky GM and an absentminded player:

:smallamused: : Hmm. What is this - Alignment: Male, Gender: True Neutral?

:smallredface: : Oops, I changed the layout on my character sheets and forgot... let me correct it

:smallamused: : I don't think so. Where would we end if we changed fundamental and defining traits of our characters on a whim?
Funny you mention that, because one of my brother's first characters had "Chaotic Female" listed as alignment. We all had a laugh at his expense, until they had seen the armor type on my character had been listed as "Plate."

DeathQuaker

2007-03-05, 08:01 AM

Isn't the differing eye level just a consequence of the differing hairstyles? The females with the lower eyes also have much lower fringes to their hair than the men do. If you put the eyes that low with a high fringe they'd look like some sort of mutant...

I can't remember when it was, but awhile ago the Giant said that he put female eyes lower because it was "cute" and, indeed, to allow for better hair design.

When someone did the comparison before, if you put one line through the center of the heads, most females' eyes are below the line and most males' are above. V's however, are usually bisected by the line. :smallamused:

ArchiviesTheQua

2007-03-05, 04:04 PM

Read round 5. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639)

Slip of the tongue?

Or maybe V's gender is so well hidden, even the Giant doesn't know and gets confused from time to time xD

If you scroll down, he says that he said it as an estimation.

I've always thought that Vaarsuvius was male BUT LET ME JUST ANSWER SOME THINGS BEFORE YOU KILL ME!:

-First off, it doesn't matter how many people thought that V was male or female. The only person who knows in the comic is V and it is assumed that Haley knows too. So no one else knows, therefore they're just as wrong as we are.
-Second off, the "green shoes" I don't think really matters. The was that V replied was in more of a general sympathy, knowing that Haley was female and would care about these things, V said a vague statement that could be either male or female, but was still what Haley wanted to hear.
-Third, V isn't like most... males or females. V is "true neutral...goes both ways" as far as characteristics go. You cannot categorize traits as "male" traits or "female" traits. I know a guy that like to shop, but he isn't gay and is definetly a he.
-When V bunks with Haley, it could just be they have a trust thing, being with a guy or being both girls, whatever it might be. In the first hundred comics, V was Haley's closest friend in the Order as far as we can tell, therefore we must assume that Haley didn't want her own room, considering that would be a waste of money and over crowded for the "guys." Not to mention a waste of money (it's Haley, remember?).
-V perhaps didn't get the "time of month" joke because maybe elves do not have them. For as much as we can tell, we know nothing about elvish relationships. Therefore, they might just not do anything physical together, so they might just be married, just because they love each other.

Now, I don't want to argue specifically, but I think that Vaarsuvius will be male because the majority believes that he'll be female, therefore it would be more of a surprise. But of course, V might be female because I always get these things wrong or because the Giant may expect us to believe that he'll go against majority. You never know. :smalltongue:

Of course, this is not fact.

Zanaril

2007-03-05, 04:33 PM

tanonev

2007-03-05, 04:51 PM

I bet your just saying that to get us fustrated :smallamused:

Read the rest of the thread; turns out GrayMatter was mistaken on the validity of the reference ;)

Ariko

2007-03-06, 09:50 AM

To me, On the Origin of the PCs provides a reasonable answer on Haley and V getting along better then some of the OOTS. in the scene where they meet, and where they join OOTS. I could..but for some reason I'm feeling contrary and don't feel like making a spoiler tag for further details, however much of a spoiler they actually are :tongue:

Nicoli20

2007-03-19, 06:19 PM

I agree with ArchiviesTheQua. We shouldn't try to determine V's gender by what we think as gender traits, because different genders don't usually mean different traits. Some males may love to go shopping while some females may like wrestling. Back to the point of this debate, V's race may have a different way of reproduction, so they may not have a gender, this theory being supported by comic stirp #385, when Sabine (while shapeshifted), asks why men are such pigs, and V replies, "Uh, I am not certain I am the most qualified to comment on gender traits." Maybe V doesn't have that much knowledge, despite her high intelligence rank, about what humans think as gender traits. Before I joined the forum, I have always thought V had no gender in the world of OOTS, but this is just my opinion.

Teh_Jakester

2007-03-19, 06:53 PM

How about we just say: If you think V is a girl, say she. If you think V is a boy, say he. If you think V is neither, say it.

Nicoli20

2007-03-19, 07:02 PM

How about we just say: If you think V is a girl, say she. If you think V is a boy, say he. If you think V is neither, say it.

That doesn't answer which gender V has or if V doesn't have one at all.:smallannoyed: Reviewing over the comic and waiting for more strips will help determine so.

:vaarsuvius: :Truly, this must be the greatest challenge you humans have ever faced.

Teh_Jakester

2007-03-19, 07:05 PM

That doesn't answer which gender V has or if V doesn't have one at all.:smallannoyed: Reviewing over the comic and waiting for more strips will help determine so.

:vaarsuvius: :Truly, this must be the greatest challenge you humans have ever faced.

Yes, but it keeps us from going mad.

Talya

2007-03-19, 07:10 PM

My opinion is that V's sex is left vague even to the Giant. He doesn't know, because he's laughing at his own jokes, and V's androgenous nature is part of the joke. If he knew what s/he was, it wouldn't be funny.

So because V exists only in Rich's mind, and underneath the stick-figure robes there isn't any actual genitalia, V's gender must forever more be both. (Shroedinger's cat.)

Nicoli20

2007-03-19, 07:14 PM

The answer will be either revealed in time, or if we find enough clues, this may finally be solved.:smallwink:

Endeavourl

2007-03-20, 01:08 AM

I've always thought of V as female while reading through most of the comic. It was somewhere near a recent strip that a character (I forget who) refers to V as a "he", and this got me quite confused. After going back through the strips, I've noticed that there are circumstances where V is decidedly female, but others where V could be male. I'm glad to see that this is on purpose, and that there is a nice debate here in the forums :smalltongue:

RowlieBowlie

2007-03-20, 05:53 AM

The gender confusion is very amuzing indeed.

Vaarsuvius gets named He and she multiple times. But for us is to find out which one he really is. Not even the teammates are exactly clear.

Quite funny really, we only know that he rooms with a girl. And that he is married, but not the gender of his mate.

Confusing yes, but quite amusing.

For some reason I find that I relate to Vaarsuvius as a Male. but I could be wrong.

Nogard

2007-03-21, 12:35 AM

So because V exists only in Rich's mind, and underneath the stick-figure robes there isn't any actual genitalia, V's gender must forever more be both. (Shroedinger's cat.)

Wait. Doesn't that imply that we could actually change V's gender by the act of checking?

Vale

2007-03-21, 12:53 AM

And that he is married, but not the gender of his mate.

Really, if you knew that V's mate was a guy, would that make V a woman? It might add another level of "probably" or be another hint, but in our world there are guys who marry other guys. Girls who marry girls too. I don't really know of any compelling reasons to assume that the elven race has any problems with people marrying within their gender.

Frankly, even if V had just casually dropped a "my wife" comment in there, I wouldn't take that as Law that she's a he. :smalltongue: He might in fact, still be a she even if she has a he for a mate!

Innis Cabal

2007-03-21, 12:53 AM

V's gender, like much of the comic, is plot

RowlieBowlie

2007-03-21, 02:17 AM

Really, if you knew that V's mate was a guy, would that make V a woman? It might add another level of "probably" or be another hint, but in our world there are guys who marry other guys. Girls who marry girls too. I don't really know of any compelling reasons to assume that the elven race has any problems with people marrying within their gender.

True, I did not speculate on that, maybe because I still believe in mating would be done by a male and a female elf. But well, you're right and therefore I must apologise to all people that do indeed take lust for their own gender, since they are as much in this world as the ones that like the opposites.

I feel really numb for not including this in my calculations.

Glarx

2007-03-21, 02:35 AM

I whole heartedly say V is a man. Why? Because reading V's dialogue in a British male's voice is hilarious, and trying to do it in any feminine voice really does detract from it in my opinion.

Not that women can't use 'big words' or 'ramble'. I'm not being stereotypical. I just can't read aloud in a female voice.

EllieCat

2007-03-21, 08:52 AM

V is male. V must be male, because otherwise she would be the long sought after cure for the vicious disease that has spread through the female elven population, and has jumped the species barriers to humans and is even starting to spread to gnomes and dwarves.

What disease? Chainmail Bikini Syndrome, the mysterious force that causes half of a female elfs outfit to disappear as soon as she puts it on. :smallbiggrin:

Ok, so that's a bit tongue in cheek. More seriously V seems to be trying to confuse the issue IC, and all the obvious misdirection has been to make him seem more female, implying that he's male.

Holy_Knight

2007-03-22, 01:01 AM

V is male. V must be male, because otherwise she would be the long sought after cure for the vicious disease that has spread through the female elven population, and has jumped the species barriers to humans and is even starting to spread to gnomes and dwarves.

What disease? Chainmail Bikini Syndrome, the mysterious force that causes half of a female elfs outfit to disappear as soon as she puts it on. :smallbiggrin:

This may be the best argument ever. :smalltongue:

As for my take on the issue, I've said this before--heck, probably in this very thread, but I don't feel like checking right now--it seems pretty obvious to me that Vaarsuvius was originally intended to be male, and was changed to androgynous once Rich realized the readers were divided on the issue.

theotherone

2007-03-22, 10:02 AM

I am of the opinion that V is either both or neither, and before anyone says that it's impossible, consider: s/he's a 110-years-old-+ wizard, so s/he's had plenty of time to be affected by magical mishaps like her spell 'distant inferno'

V Junior

2007-03-22, 11:21 AM

V is a gender, though we will never know. You see, V IS a girl or a boy... excepth there was a birth defect, which failed to provide him/her with anything to reveal the gender. In fact, not even V knows. So there.

Vale

2007-03-22, 12:15 PM

a birth defect, which failed to provide him/her with anything to reveal the gender.

ouch. And we already heard that V is married...

That would have been an uncomfortable honeymoon I'd think. :smallredface:

Zonbatow

2007-04-01, 09:55 PM

When reading the comic I read V as a female. Just the way she was drawn. I figured the hair, the circlet, and the color scheme was more fitting for a female. Now as a guy with long hair I know that those aren't the best barometers, and I get annoyed when people call me "ma'am" when they have just seen me from behind. My opinion was not affected so much by V's responses to most things. I just thought "Hey, this elf chick is destructive and rants a lot, cool."
There were times that I realized it wasn't as clear as I thought, especially once I read pronouns of both genders applied to her, and Belkar's comment about lizard reproductive systems. Actually that just made it plain as day.
But overall, I think we can debate this into pages numbering in the thousands and people will still disagree. That is what is so awesome about this, not to mention that it makes for some good jokes.

korath

2007-04-01, 10:48 PM

I wonder what would happen if V put on the Belt of Gender changing Elan got from the Ogres?

Setra

2007-04-02, 12:50 AM

I wonder what would happen if V put on the Belt of Gender changing Elan got from the Ogres?
It'd cause the end of the world

Also, Belkar would marry Miko.

Rinion

2007-04-02, 01:09 AM

I always just assumed V was male because of his name. I realise that this is not accepted as undeniable evidence; it's just what gave me my perception of his/her gender.

On another note, I don't understand why some people think V's comment in 3 makes him a woman, and that the people who disagree say that he was just trying to console Haley. Isn't that implying that all men care nothing about their appearances? I don't like that sort of gender stereotyping. A man can decide to wear a shirt that doesn't clash with his pants without being metro-/homosexual.

Amon Star

2007-04-02, 09:19 AM

I wonder what would happen if V put on the Belt of Gender changing Elan got from the Ogres?

I doubt there would be any noticeable change. Still, it would be a great experiment if you can survive the resulting fireballs.

Skippy

2007-04-02, 10:31 AM

Wait. Doesn't that imply that we could actually change V's gender by the act of checking?

This must be by far the best comment about V I have ever read!!!!

MinMax

2007-04-02, 08:11 PM

I always pegged Vaarsuvius as a guy, actually. The name, for one, seemed then as masculine as it does now. Also, the first gender reference of Vaarsuvius, and indeed, the only one for many comics was Roy calling Vaarsuvius V-Man. Also, I still don't think Vaarsuvius looks particularly feminine, due to his/her elven nature.

As a matter of fact, I wasn't even aware of there being a gender confusion until I read the FAQ, back in the 200s, I think, at least 142 comics after I started reading.

Black_Light83

2007-04-02, 08:17 PM

It's a dude, get over it

Tura

2007-04-03, 04:15 AM

The right question about V's gender issue (the wrong question being, of course, "what is V's gender?") is:

What sort of person is
1) intelligent (fairly obvious)
2) married (223)
3) able to understand as much as any other, if not better, love and lust (223, 262, 335, 365)
and at the same time
1) unable to recognize gender differences (237)
2) perfectly aware of said inability? (385)

So here's my answer: it's just a meta-gaming joke.

And it goes like this. Meta-gaming is when you act/think not as your character, but as a player who has read some rulebooks. Let's examine those rulebooks. When it comes to PCs, gender is a "purely aesthetic choice", with no impact whatsoever on your abilities, rolls etc. You'll never find in the books any explanation about gender differences, because, for playing purposes, there aren't any. In fact, gender is mentioned only in the drow section, which is not the case, and in humorous stuff like the Bitch Rule, which is anything but "core". Furthermore, some books use the male pronoun as a generalization ["if a player dies, HE..."], some use the female pronoun ["SHE.."] and some use both ["HE or SHE..."]. So, if your knowledge about the universe depended on those books, wouldn't you be a bit confused about genders too?

Therefore, I theorize that V has studied thoroughly the rulebooks, and, armed with all this knowledge, is perfectly capable of surviving almost any encounter and understanding any role-playing difficulty. Except genders. And if you insist about the wrong question, V's actual gender, the answer wouldn't be male, or female, or anything in between, but rather something like "never chose one", or "didn't understand the question", or "who cares, it makes no difference anyway".

Sounds plausible? :)

PS - Of course, if V's big secret (328), which may or may not be connected to his/her matrimonial state (224), is also connected to the gender issue, then it gets far more complicated - though without rendering this explanation completely worthless. Yet.

PS2 - I haven't read "On the Origins of PCs" (they just don't send it over here :/ ), so I sincerely hope I haven't missed something crucial about all this...

Futility

2007-04-07, 07:31 PM

I'd like to suggest that we may finally have a pretty strong hint from the comics as to V's femaleness. This hint takes the form of, to put it as carefully as possible, the onomatopoeia used when the arrow hits the "anti-arrow-shield-of-purpleness". I won't elaborate - draw your own conclusions.

Ronsian

2007-04-08, 07:32 AM

My money is they are male, but not in the straight sense. Most of the female reasons would work (fashion, time of month, inability to discern gender, etc.), as well as male. I don't quite think you can have intelligence be a factor, as elves probably have a different brain set-up, and even if the Giant said why many people wouldn't agree. Plus, the whole "It took me and my mate a long time to discover our love for each other.", sounds to me like it took awhile liking a guy. But anyway, my 2 cents.

Setra

2007-04-09, 08:14 AM

It's a dude, get over it
I have a sudden urge to sing...

Duuuuude looks like a ladeh!

PerryTatchett

2007-04-09, 01:54 PM

Has anyone noticed that the the plurality of men say "Female" and the plurality of women say "Male"? (Note: Plurality because many people are unsure, or think that Rich hasn't chosen one sex (Not gender! Gender means what form a word gets, not male/female! Yay! I'm up to double parenthesis!) or another.)
Just something I've noticed looking over this thread.

Daibhid C

2007-04-09, 03:15 PM

The face V makes in 237 when Haley makes the comment about it being 'roy's time of month' was pretty much the typical male reactionary face, too.

Not really; it's more an expression of total confusion, because V's gender ambiguity is so complete, (s)he apparently doesn't even notice gender differences in others, and therefore has no idea what Haley's talking about.

Lilt

2007-05-04, 06:51 AM

I always figured 'male'. Reasons:
Female characters in the strips have generally had breasts.
Nothing has ever made me think 'female' about what V has done.
V's actions and speech have always seemed more 'male' to me.

Caeneus

2007-05-07, 12:31 AM

V's gender is androgynous. That's a perfectly valid gender. S/he has a few characteristics of both male and female, and doesn't seem to care whether other people think of her as male, female, or neither. As for V's sex, well... I don't think it matters. Maybe V is physically male, maybe female, or maybe V is intersex. It's not important though. As long as his/her parter is okay with it (and apparently they are) then it's fine.

Or maybe I'm just seeing V as an androgyne because that's sort of what I am and I want to identify with him/her. :smalltongue:

Oh, and if V wore the belt of gender changing... probably nothing would happen, but I find it far more amusing to imagine that s/he would gain strong characteristics of both sexes, eg beard and breasts or something.

UncredibleHallq

2007-06-12, 05:56 PM

I used to think Vaarsuvius was female, largely thank to #123 (where Haley was rooming with V). My opinion was smashed by #365 and #385, however. In the former, V is not remotely surprised to see "Elan" kissing a male member of the city guard, suggesting an indifference to gender. In the latter, V admits outright to being clueless in gender matters. These episodes, along with a few others, suggest V should be seen as neither male or female but extremely androgynous.

It's not quite that simple, however. I've read significant portions of these gender-debate threads, and there is something to be said for this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1991142&postcount=203) argument, as well as the argument that V was originally called "he." It's also noteworthy that even if you take the view that V's gender has always been ambiguous, the ambiguity has gotten more extreme with time. This was gradual process. Looking back, I realize that the more extreme indicators of ambiguity did not start with #365, but merely culminated there.

I've come to the conclusion V's gender went through 3 stages:

1) Originally designed as male
2) After some people reported confusion, Rich decided to play up the ambiguity, which meant dropping heavy hints contrary to the original intention, such as 123.
3) Finally, Rich decided to develop V as a character who's self-understanding is androgynous, at least by human gender standards (leaving open the possibility that he sees elves as being generally less concerned with gender).