What does "hero" mean to you?

[Quertus]

In D&D, if someone says, "I've searched a hundred worlds for the 12 greatest heroes," what do you picture? What would you expect to be true about those who made the cut?

[Malroth]

In the classic "hero" forumla The hero's life would first be destroyed by the Horror/Villian/Monster who would then begin leave the world of Sanity and Light to find out how to battle it, and then upon their victorious return, would then share the secrets of the Horror's power with the society so that the next time such a thing attacked anyone could defeat it. This last portion is what separated the True Hero from the madman, Do they find and share the source of their enemy's power so that it becomes Everyone's.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

In D&D, if someone says, "I've searched a hundred worlds for the 12 greatest heroes," what do you picture? What would you expect to be true about those who made the cut?

I think it depends on who says it. The term greatest hero is pretty much inherently opinionated, so the results will depend on their opinions. One person will bring back 12 military commanders who pulled of a miraculous victory, others will try to find those who won the largest battles, no matter how they did it. Some will look for wandering swordsmen and count how many kittens maidens they saved. Some will look for the largest potential for damage, the strongest spells, or even the most faithful followers. Yet others will point to a head nurse who has saved over 4000 people without ever resorting to deadly violence. What I would expect depends on the impression I got of the NPC saying it so far.

If this is a setup for a campaign, I'd expect whatever 12 characters the players have come up with, even if they all decided on making angsty shy modern day teenagers who just want to help and excel at nothing. The visionary magical king has seen great potential within them.

[Mr_Blue]

Heroes are people who do "heroic" things. slaying evil dragons, rescuing hostages, defeating liches, and saving the world are the 9 - 5 activities of a hero. However, they always do it while upholding high morals. I have played a character who did all of that, but was not a hero. He's legacy in history is that of a bogie man who strikes fear into anyone who meets a lone swordsmen on the road (or in a dungeon, room, house, anywhere in general). The why makes all the difference when it comes to great deeds.

[Quertus]

I think it depends on who says it. The term greatest hero is pretty much inherently opinionated, so the results will depend on their opinions. One person will bring back 12 military commanders who pulled of a miraculous victory, others will try to find those who won the largest battles, no matter how they did it. Some will look for wandering swordsmen and count how many kittens maidens they saved. Some will look for the largest potential for damage, the strongest spells, or even the most faithful followers. Yet others will point to a head nurse who has saved over 4000 people without ever resorting to deadly violence. What I would expect depends on the impression I got of the NPC saying it so far.

If this is a setup for a campaign, I'd expect whatever 12 characters the players have come up with, even if they all decided on making angsty shy modern day teenagers who just want to help and excel at nothing. The visionary magical king has seen great potential within them.

I was trying not to bias the results, but, yes, this is exactly the problem I was having. As a setup for the PCs, it really is whatever 12 characters they happened to bring. Even though it shouldn't be, unless the speaker was searching by "potential destiny" or some such.

But what should it look like? Well, that really depends on the speaker, doesn't it? So I was trying to see what most people would expect the speaker to mean. Because, with my definitions, IME, the speaker would return with 12 NPCs - which sounds like a horrible setup for the PCs. :smalltongue:

[Lvl 2 Expert]

But what should it look like?

Taking another step back, and looking from a story perspective: like a balanced party. One great general with a history in mounted combat, one unequaled swords(wo)man who slew a whole nest of dragons by themselves, one prince(ss) of thieves who has liberated their people from three separate tyrants, a wizard who withdrew themselves into the dessert after winning a decisive battle 50 years ago and has since made the sands bloom and flourish etc etc.

If your players have a sense of humor, let the spell misfire. It brings forth the 12 greatest heroes from these 100 realms, all described by you, and then it also delivers these uhh other 12 people here. Sorry guys, our fault. Anyway, the real heroes will now start preparing to take on the evil dragon king *Crack, scream, sounds of a preemptive attack, splut*. Okay, maybe these other 12 people can help us after all?

Does not work so well if your players actually went further overboard with heroics than you did.

P.S. Twelve is a really big number for PC's, even if it's six players with two characters each.

[Aegis013]

Easiest way around your problem is to have PCs actually be special within the game world. Maybe they have the ability to become powerful at a hugely accelerated rate compared to NPCs, (PCs may require weeks or months of adventuring to gain levels up, NPCs need years) or perhaps they are somehow intertwined with fate, the weave, or whatever other plot device you choose to use.

It's not exactly the twelve greatest heroes, but it may be the twelve potentially greatest heroes of our time. It's not quite as nice a line for a monologue or plot exposition, but it covers up that potentially gaping plot hole.

[Honest Tiefling]

But what should it look like? Well, that really depends on the speaker, doesn't it? So I was trying to see what most people would expect the speaker to mean. Because, with my definitions, IME, the speaker would return with 12 NPCs - which sounds like a horrible setup for the PCs. :smalltongue:

Well, given many groups, I was halfway expecting your party to fight these guys. Can I ask what you told the players to make, so we can work that in? They might have certain expectations...

[Vhaidara]

But what should it look like? Well, that really depends on the speaker, doesn't it? So I was trying to see what most people would expect the speaker to mean. Because, with my definitions, IME, the speaker would return with 12 NPCs - which sounds like a horrible setup for the PCs. :smalltongue:

So your question is basically "What is everyone else expecting, and how disappointed are they when they see the party?"

Kind of a "You were taller in my imagination." moment, but scaled up?

[ahenobarbi]

Heroes are creatures from stories so greates heroes would be those with best stories about them.

But which stories are teh greates? Obviously those that resulted in highest Perform(Story Telling) check :D

(include stories of potential/profecies if you want to include low level characters)

[GrayDeath]

Hmmmm, if the being saying that is more or less good intentional AND knows what he`s talking about, I firstly expect them to be VERY powerful.

Power IS the Prime Virtue for a Hero (not counting real world heroes obviously) as without it tru heroics (TM) are simply impossible.

After that I would look for the greatest tales told about them, the greatest deeds they did, and how well they got back from their own main disasters and losses.

After that they should be both still willing AND able to continue being heroes.


The rest is up to you. ;)



I myself would probably go with a 6:6 Mix of fulfilled and subverted stereotypes, ideally ones who stood on opposite sides in conflicts without clear moral sides, but maybe thats just me. ^^

[ahenobarbi]

Hmmmm, if the being saying that is more or less good intentional AND knows what he`s talking about, I firstly expect them to be VERY powerful.

Power IS the Prime Virtue for a Hero (not counting real world heroes obviously) as without it tru heroics (TM) are simply impossible.

After that I would look for the greatest tales told about them, the greatest deeds they did, and how well they got back from their own main disasters and losses.

After that they should be both still willing AND able to continue being heroes.


The rest is up to you. ;)



I myself would probably go with a 6:6 Mix of fulfilled and subverted stereotypes, ideally ones who stood on opposite sides in conflicts without clear moral sides, but maybe thats just me. ^^

Well, I think I agree with you if you agree to replace 'power' with 'power relative to teh chalenge'. So overcoming a small challenge with even smaller power (eg. a commoner defeating a young dragon is more heroic than epic character defeating a young dragon).

[Buufreak]

I would present this man with the 12 most overrated Mary Sues that ever existed.

[Quertus]

P.S. Twelve is a really big number for PC's, even if it's six players with two characters each.

Or 4 players with 3 characters each, or 3 players with 4 characters each, or 2 players with 6 characters each, or one player with 12 characters - and that assumes each player has the same number of characters, and all characters are PCs. :smalltongue:


Well, given many groups, I was halfway expecting your party to fight these guys. Can I ask what you told the players to make, so we can work that in? They might have certain expectations...

Haven't said anything to the players yet - I'm just building the... ummm... what do you call the thing you send in to get your proposal heard in the first place?

When making the hook, I realized that there were several ways to interpret the hook, and wanted to see how everyone else would take it. Wanted to use that to determine what OOC direction I should give the players in building their characters.


So your question is basically "What is everyone else expecting, and how disappointed are they when they see the party?"

Kind of a "You were taller in my imagination." moment, but scaled up?

That's... probably what I'm trying to avoid. Unless I'm running something for the lols. :smalltongue:


Heroes are creatures from stories so greates heroes would be those with best stories about them.

But which stories are teh greates? Obviously those that resulted in highest Perform(Story Telling) check :D

(include stories of potential/profecies if you want to include low level characters)

Those with the best stories - yeah, that's definitely a deciding factor. In fact, if I were a player with such a setup, I would probably ask if I could make an incompetent character who was in the right place at the right time, and who had a great PR guy. :smalltongue:


Hmmmm, if the being saying that is more or less good intentional AND knows what he`s talking about, I firstly expect them to be VERY powerful.

Power IS the Prime Virtue for a Hero (not counting real world heroes obviously) as without it tru heroics (TM) are simply impossible.

After that I would look for the greatest tales told about them, the greatest deeds they did, and how well they got back from their own main disasters and losses.

After that they should be both still willing AND able to continue being heroes.


The rest is up to you. ;)



I myself would probably go with a 6:6 Mix of fulfilled and subverted stereotypes, ideally ones who stood on opposite sides in conflicts without clear moral sides, but maybe thats just me. ^^

I considered the possibility that, if this were done by spell, the caster would get a dozen corpses. :smalltongue: If course, this being D&D, the heroes you summon being dead isn't necessarily that much of an obstacle...

Given that it's D&D, power is likely. I'd say that the speaker is expecting a dozen... highly capable individuals. People who have demonstrated skills and abilities that they should be able to leverage here, too.


Well, I think I agree with you if you agree to replace 'power' with 'power relative to teh chalenge'. So overcoming a small challenge with even smaller power (eg. a commoner defeating a young dragon is more heroic than epic character defeating a young dragon).

That is a can of worms, too. This is the perfect definition for someone looking for an apprentice, or someone looking to bequeath their worldly goods to someone worthy. It may be a good indicator of bravery and tactical ability, or may just indicate epic luck.

But it's the kind of D&D character (or, at least, the kind of game) that I personally hate with a passion generally reserved for the Tau.

[KillianHawkeye]

"Every day you sit behind your desk and you learn a little more how to accept the world the way it is. Well, here's the rub... heroes don't do that. Heroes don't accept the world the way it is. They fight it."
-- Angel, Season 5, "Underneath"

One of my favorite shows! :smallsmile:

[GrayDeath]

I considered the possibility that, if this were done by spell, the caster would get a dozen corpses. :smalltongue: If course, this being D&D, the heroes you summon being dead isn't necessarily that much of an obstacle...

Given that it's D&D, power is likely. I'd say that the speaker is expecting a dozen... highly capable individuals. People who have demonstrated skills and abilities that they should be able to leverage here, too.


That is a can of worms, too. This is the perfect definition for someone looking for an apprentice, or someone looking to bequeath their worldly goods to someone worthy. It may be a good indicator of bravery and tactical ability, or may just indicate epic luck.

But it's the kind of D&D character (or, at least, the kind of game) that I personally hate with a passion generally reserved for the Tau.

Agreed.

They are looking for the gretes HEROES, not the people with the potential to someday become the greatest Heroes.
In that case however his definition would go well.

@ Tau: Love the suits, love the guns, hate the rest. ^^


"Every day you sit behind your desk and you learn a little more how to accept the world the way it is. Well, here's the rub... heroes don't do that. Heroes don't accept the world the way it is. They fight it."
-- Angel, Season 5, "Underneath"

One of my favorite shows! :smallsmile:

See my third Qualifier. Its not FORMER Heroes they are looking for after all. ;)

[Belzyk]

I think of 11 guys who seem like the perfect beings. (To your world or what your lookin for). And that one dark as all hell and evil beyond evil guy who just wants to burn the world and enslave all life and unlife. Cus ya know he's the true hero.

[khadgar567]

for me personally 12 angst magnets for current break the cutie games <insert year>

[Faily]

Could just do it as simple as ripping off Fate/ and just say "summon up the greatest legends". Which can, in the case of Archer, be legends of the future. :smalltongue:

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Could just do it as simple as ripping off Fate/ and just say "summon up the greatest legends". Which can, in the case of Archer, be legends of the future. :smalltongue:

Would be creepy if there are heroes from the future there, but just one or two of those, both from within the next year. Great foreshadowing.

[Eldariel]

In D&D context, I think a hero should be defined by their deeds. A classical hero may be courageous and noble but ultimately I think a D&D world needs a broader definition: anyone who has performed grand deeds. Ultimately anyone who eventually faces and overcomes the great challenges sent their way, no matter how reluctant and how lucky, can be a hero. I also believe a hero doesn't need to have their story told: the feats and the hero's attitude to them is what defines a hero, not if anybody has heard of the stories (though of course, repeated stories tend to produce ever greater legends). I'd also deviate from the classic villain/hero setup and go with moral relativism; I think an evil person who has done great deeds even if they bring about grandiose horrors for the little folk could be termed a hero as long as they believe their own path is right. I'd say Sauron could for instance be called a hero for i.a. destroying Númenor.

[The Great Wyrm]

wizard who withdrew themselves into the dessert after winning a decisive battle 50 years ago

Swimming in Cool Whip is always a fun way to celebrate victory.