Underleveled challenge: Adult Black Dragon

[The Shadowdove]

Hello forum-lurkers,

I am here to present you with your next challenge.

You are a four man level 5 party of different classes.

You have been given rings or potions of acid resistance from a reliable ally.

You are taking on an Adult Black Dragon in its lair. An ancient lost city underground, riddled with in tact buildings, a large manor, and a few temples.


Kill it and have at least one party member survive.

You all have +1 weapons.

Use only your class abilities and mundane equipment/items.

Edit: racial abilities and backgrounds as well as weapons/gear are also allowed. In case that was unclear.

Go.

-Dove

[ClintACK]

Taking it on in a straight fight is going to be suicide. But there must be lots of other options.

1) Collapse the lair, burying the black dragon -- who has a swim speed, but no burrowing speed.

Need: Dwarven Stonecunning + Steath + Lots of black powder

- Dwarven Rogue (stealth expertise) to plant the explosives.
- Druid to cast Pass Without a Trace (concentration)
- Wizard to cast Invisibility (concentration)
- Warlock to cast Fly (concentration)


Dragon's Passive Perception is 21.

Expert stealth with 16 dex= +9 stealth.
PWT gives +10= +19 stealth.
Fly means no footsteps.
Invisibility means nothing to see (unless he gets within 60' of the dragon).

The trick will be triggering the bomb (or bombs). Possibly a suicide run for the dwarf -- but the other three can wait outside.

Pros: If it goes wrong, three party members survive.
Cons: Good luck getting any of the loot out.

[R.Shackleford]

Taking it on in a straight fight is going to be suicide. But there must be lots of other options.

1) Collapse the lair, burying the black dragon -- who has a swim speed, but no burrowing speed.

Need: Dwarven Stonecunning + Steath + Lots of black powder

- Dwarven Rogue (stealth expertise) to plant the explosives.
- Druid to cast Pass Without a Trace (concentration)
- Wizard to cast Invisibility (concentration)
- Warlock to cast Fly (concentration)


Dragon's Passive Perception is 21.

Expert stealth with 16 dex= +9 stealth.
PWT gives +10= +19 stealth.
Fly means no footsteps.
Invisibility means nothing to see (unless he gets within 60' of the dragon).

The trick will be triggering the bomb (or bombs). Possibly a suicide run for the dwarf -- but the other three can wait outside.

Pros: If it goes wrong, three party members survive.
Cons: Good luck getting any of the loot out.

Poison the water. A lot of poison.

Also you could have a familiar do the suicide run.

[hymer]

You are taking on an Adult Black Dragon in its lair. An ancient lost city underground, riddled with in tact buildings, a large manor, and a few temples.

Traditionally, this is done using a staff with a blue crystal, which is also useful if someone gets breathed on. And there's supposed to be a race of degenerate dwarves living in the city, too.


Use only your class abilities and mundane equipment/items.

What, no racial or background features? No skills? What's the point of having all those magical thingies if they can't be used? Do spells count as class abilities for this purpose? How about movement, is that allowed?

[The Shadowdove]

Traditionally, this is done using a staff with a blue crystal, which is also useful if someone gets breathed on. And there's supposed to be a race of degenerate dwarves living in the city, too.



What, no racial or background features? No skills? What's the point of having all those magical thingies if they can't be used? Do spells count as class abilities for this purpose? How about movement, is that allowed?

Of course, apologies for being vague. I assumed racial abilities were implied, as it's difficult play a class without being a member of some race.

[hymer]

Of course, apologies for being vague. I assumed racial abilities were implied, as it's difficult play a class without being a member of some race.

And rightly so. I was being intentionally obtuse in the hope of eliciting some sort of comic effect. Well, I had fun! :smalltongue:

[MaxWilson]

Hello forum-lurkers,

I am here to present you with your next challenge.

You are a four man level 5 party of different classes.

You have been given rings or potions of acid resistance from a reliable ally.

You are taking on an Adult Black Dragon in its lair. An ancient lost city underground, riddled with in tact buildings, a large manor, and a few temples.

Kill it and have at least one party member survive.

You all have +1 weapons.

Use only your class abilities and mundane equipment/items.

Edit: racial abilities and backgrounds as well as weapons/gear are also allowed. In case that was unclear.

Go.

-Dove

I'd go:

1 scout: Shadow Monk 3/Rogue 2 using Pass Without Trace + Stealth Expertise/Cunning Action to hopefully sniff out the dragon's lair without getting killed; Pass Without Trace will also help hide your extra guys from the dragon until the real ambush occurs.
1 summoner/poison supplier: Moon Druid 5 -- use this guy to extract lots of Flying Snake venom to put on everyone's weapons. Cast Protection From Poison on the extractor before attempting the nature check to extract.
1 long-ranged attacker: Sharpshooter Eldritch Knight 5 w/ Absorb Elements and Shield, and Nature proficiency (he'll be the poison extractor).
1 ranged attacker: Chain Warlock 5 using a Sprite familiar for extra scouting, Spell Sniper + Agonizing Eldritch Spear for long-ranged attacking.

Strategy: attempted half-ambush bait-and-switch. Use favorable terrain to gain heavy obscurement (hiding inside bushes if necessary). Try to bait the dragon (using Sprite or Monk sprinting madly away) into taking damage to close with ranged attackers ("pfah! a hundred points of damage? Small price to pay to get rid of this annoyance!") using warlock (16 DPR against dragon) and only one arrow per round from fighter (14 DPR if it's poisoned) starting at 600' range. Then when it's within 200' or so, pull out all the stops: Giant Owls from the Moon Druid suddenly try to grapple it as the Warlock Hexes its Strength as the fighter suddenly goes from one arrow per turn to four arrows this turn (Action Surge + Extra Attack, 56 DPR) and the Rogue/Monk opens up with his poisoned arrows for another 14 or so DPR.

The goal is at all costs to prevent the dragon from escaping and coming back with a better plan, because if it ambushes you you're toast.

The chief risk to the plan is that the dragon may suss out what you're doing and not fall for the bait. E.g. if he instead dives into a river and goes into stealth mode himself, your plan is at risk. It's not clear whether the underground city has a river or other places for a dragon to hide, but you get my drift.

Estimated chance of success: 50%.

[ClintACK]

It feels like there ought to be a way to abuse Mold Earth here, too. But I can't quite make it work.




Poison the water. A lot of poison.
:)


Also you could have a familiar do the suicide run.
I thought about that. But a familiar can't "attack" so that would depend somewhat on DM interpretation. But probably dropping a candle would be fine. And the dwarf appreciates your suggestion. :) Raising the funds for a resurrection at 5th level is tough. (I suppose Locate Object and Mold Earth could be used to recover the body...)




Traditionally, this is done using a staff with a blue crystal, which is also useful if someone gets breathed on. And there's supposed to be a race of degenerate dwarves living in the city, too.

Awesome.

[R.Shackleford]

It feels like there ought to be a way to abuse Mold Earth here, too. But I can't quite make it work.




:)


I thought about that. But a familiar can't "attack" so that would depend somewhat on DM interpretation. But probably dropping a candle would be fine. And the dwarf appreciates your suggestion. :) Raising the funds for a resurrection at 5th level is tough. (I suppose Locate Object and Mold Earth could be used to recover the body...)





Awesome.

Lighting a fuse or pushing an object (candle) would never be an attack as long as you aren't rolling an attack roll. A DM can always rule otherwise but they would be ruling against RAW.

Familiar can do many many things. The help action is my favorite. If all else fails I'm sure the Warlock's familiar can do it.

Or an unseen servant can somehow be used for this.

[ClintACK]

Lighting a fuse or pushing an object (candle) would never be an attack as long as you aren't rolling an attack roll. A DM can always rule otherwise but they would be ruling against RAW.

Ah. That's right. I forgot 5e finally gave us a definitive definition for attack.


Or an unseen servant can somehow be used for this.

60' range on unseen servant. Firebolt would work out to 120'.



Okay. Cheesy surprise-round kills, assuming the party can sneak up on the dragon. (Because once the dragon can act, all bets are off.)

#2) 4 Monks: Stunning Strike Spam. Save DC=14. Dragon has +10. Only 15% chance to fail each save.
First round the monks wake him with 4x4 attacks, attempting stunning strike on any hit
+6 vs. AC:19 -- 40% hit, so 6.4 hits -- or 10.24 hits with optional flanking rules
so 65% chance of one failed save, or 81% chance with optional flanking rules.

If the dragon is stunned, the monks continue to flurry with advantage and auto-criticals. (Oops. Oh well, didn't work anyway.)
10.24 hits x(2d6+3)= 102 damage per round.

If they continue using stunning strike on the stunned dragon, they should have an 81% of extending the stun for a second round -- and kill it by the early third round at the latest.

They will use up all their ki and probably have to do 3 attacks instead of 4 for the last few monks to hit it.

Best with a surprise round -- 16 Dex + Stealth skill + Pass Without a Trace (one Way of Shadow Monk) gives +16 Stealth vs. dragon's 21 passive perception. 40% chance for all four to beat it. Fingers crossed.

Note: Didn't use +1 weapons for this.Motto: What we lack in quality, we make up for in volume.
TL;DR: 81% chance of stunning in first round -- then auto-critical flurries for the win.
FAIL Why this fails: Legendary Resistance.

#3) 4 Fighters: So Surge we All. All BM -- using Precision and Feint to help hit the dragon's 19 AC. How much damage can they do in a round?
Archers: +8 attack, so 50% hits. 2 attacks + 2 action surge = 2 hits each.
-- +1 Longbows do 1d8+1+3 damage/hit for 8.5 per hit, 17 per archer, 68 total.
-- Not nearly enough. (Sharpshooter bumps that to 74, even Crossbow Expert won't help.)

PAMs: +7 attack, 45% hits. 4x2x(2+1)x.45 = 7.2 hits + 3.6 butts
-- +1 halberd: 1d10+1+3+gwf=10.5 on a hit, and 1d4+1+3+gwf=7 on a butt.
-- Total damage: 75.6+25.2.=100.8 per round.
FAIL. Archers do 74 damage. PAMs do 100.8 average. If all four PAMs find a way to sneak well and win initiative, they *might* have squeaked out a win -- if they could Action Surge twice.

#4 4 Berserkers: Reckless Rage Rampage. +1 greatswords, frenzied rage, reckless attacks. ASI to +2 strength. All in, baby.
+1+3+4= +8 attack vs 19 AC, with advantage = 75% hit.
4x3x.75=9 hits at 2d6+1+2+4=14 damage = 126 total damage.
+ crits: with advantage, 10% crit for an extra 7 points so 4x3x.1x7=8.4 more for 134.4

TL;DR: 134.4 average damage if they can get a surprise round. Perhaps close enough to win, if two of them can beat the dragon in initiative.

Might be possible to make this work with stealth from background and a dex- build rather than a strength build. And Alert rather than an ASI. And maybe a Magic Initiate: Bless...

#5) Sorcerers Scorch, Scorch, Scorch. Cheesy as it gets. Quickened Scorching Ray (as a 3rd) + Firebolt. Plus some spells to get the surprise round.
+7 vs. AC 19, 45% hits. 4 scorching rays + 1 firebolt each.
16 scorching rays @ 7 avg x45% hit chance == 50 damage
4 firebolts @ 11 avg x45% hit chance == 20 damage
70 damage? Not even close.


FAIL. Straight damage: 70/round. Nope.

#6) Sorlocks So Cheese We All. EB + Quick EB, w/agonizing blast, and repelling just for fun. :)
45% hits. 4 EBs each @ 1d10+4 each
16 EBs @ 10.5 x 45% hits == 75 damage

FAIL. Straight damage: 75/round. Nope.

#7) 4 Assassins: Sneak, Sneak, Sneak.Okay... 2 +1 shortsworrds, each, automatically crit in the surprise round for double all dice, including sneak attack.
ASI to get 18 dex, no feat.
+1+3+4= +8 attack, so 50% hit -- advantage turns that to 75%. Score.
a hit does: 2d6+1+4 = 12 average
1 hit from each does: +6d6 sneak-crit = 21
If each one hits once (94% each, 77% for all) that's 33x4=132 damage average.
Expected average: 150.75

Each assassin that beats the dragon on initiative gets advantage (from assassin), but not auto-critical. So... 8.5 + 10.5 sneak... so another 22.5 average damage.

Assassins get +4 initiative, Dragon gets +2. Each Assassin has a 62% chance to win.
14% -- all 4 assassins win initiative. One dead dragon.
36% -- 3 assassins win initiative. One dead dragon.
33% -- 2 assassins win/2 lose. Expect 195.75 damage. Dragon has 195.
13% -- 3 assassin lose initiative. Dragon acts/escapes/breathes from air.
2% -- all 4 assassins lose initiative. Dragon acts/escapes/breathes from the air.

To get the surprise round: Stealth Expertise: +4+3+3=+10 vs the dragon's 21 passive perception. Bah. 50-50 odds for each of them, so 1-in-16 chance they could surprise it playing straight. Really need a Pass Without a Trace to do it. Even going Variant Human and taking Lucky just gives a 30% chance of all four surprising the dragon.

About 61% odds of killing the dragon before the dragon can act, if they can surprise it. But that's a big if. Even Stealth expertise and the Lucky feat only gives a 30% chance to surprise the dragon in its own lair. Combined odds: 18.3% chance of victory

Possible improvement: Trade the ASIs for 3 Alert and 1 Magic Initiate: Bless/guidance.
Also use Poison, if it counts as "mundane equipment".

So, finally...

#8) 3 Assassins and 1 Hunter. The Dream Team.
3 Assassins -- TWF +1 Shortswords + Alert + Stealth Expertise
1 Hunter -- Archer, +1 Bow, Colossus Slayer, Hunter's Mark and PWT.
All are variant human with Lucky feat.

With PWT, Assassins are at +19 Stealth vs. Dragon's 21 Passive Perception. Hunter is at +16. Chance that all 4 pass: 69% -- raised to 95% by Lucky feat. (or 82% if just the Hunter takes Lucky.)

Surprise Round: 127 average damage.

3 Assassins: 2 attacks at +1+3+3 = +7 vs. AC19. So 45% chance. 70% with advantage. Each hit is 2d6+1+3=11, first hit from each is +6d6=21
So 34.5 expected damage from each. x3=103.5

1 Hunter: Hunter's Mark, 2 attacks at +1+2+3+3 = +9 vs. AC19. So 55% chance each. 80% with advantage.
Each hit is 1d8+1+3+1d6=12, +1d8 on first hit. 2x12x.8 + 1d8 =13.5 average.

Initiative: Alert Assassins have +3+5=+8 initiative. Dragon has +2. So each has a 83.5% chance to win initiative. The Hunter has a 57% chance.
Dragon has 68 hps left. Without auto-crit, assassin damage drops to 22.
a- 33% whole party wins initiative. One Dead Dragon (expected hps: -11.5)
b- 24% three assassins win initiative. Near Dead Dragon (expected hps: +2)
c- 20% two assassins and the hunter win initiative. Near Dead (expected hps: +8.5)
d- 15% two assassins win initiative. Dragon alive (expected hps: +24)


Pass without a Trace.
Hunter (with Favored Enemy: Dragon) tracks and locates the dragon.
95% chance of successful Stealth. --> Surprise Round.
Surprise Round: 127 average damage. (68 hps left.)
Before Dragon's Initiative:
- about a 1-in-3 chance to kill the dragon.
- about another 44% chance the expected hps left is single digit.

If the Dragon *does* survive to his first action either:
1) He's still in sight at the end of his turn, in which case the Hunter shoots again and the rogues pull out bows and do the same -- and the dragon probably dies.
2) He's moved out of sight at the end of his turn, in which case the whole party goes back in stealth (the Hunter can cast PWT twice a day) and starts stalking after the dragon.
3) He's come up with something clever. Or moved out of sight and just kept running.

And that's without using Lucky rerolls, except for Stealth. Pull out a Lucky or two for each PC for bad attack or initiative rolls... and I like this party's chances.

Take-home message: Assassins + PWT + Surprise + Lucky = Win.

[MaxWilson]

Ah. That's right. I forgot 5e finally gave us a definitive definition for attack.

It's controversial though. Some people will claim that an grapple is an attack too, even though there is no attack roll, because the PHB introduces it as a "special type of attack" and because it interacts with the Extra Attack feature.

This most frequently comes up when discussing interactions between grappling and Sanctuary, but it could come up with Invisibility too.

BTW, mono-class parties like "4 fighters" are illegal per the terms of the OP. They have to be all different classes.

[Gwendol]

A grapple isn't an attack. It's a contest which can be resolved instead of an attack.

[Easy_Lee]

A grapple isn't an attack. It's a contest which can be resolved instead of an attack.

I agree, but you have to take the attack action in order to initiate a grapple. Can you take the attack action to grapple if you can't attack? It's muddy.

[R.Shackleford]

Really, any harmful effect you put on another creature (or object I guess) should be considered an attack. Weapon, Grpaple, Fireball, and Power Word Kill...

It is finicky and bass ackwards to say that throwing a fireball at a creature isn't attacking them. It goes against the basic English ideology and it goes against the anti-fiddly ideology.

I haven't met a single new player, and many veteran D&D players, who doesn't get confused on what is an attack and what is not. Not because they can't understand the rules but because they don't follow basic English.

Edit

Grapple is an attack based on the basic English ideology and it replacing a weapon attack.

[Easy_Lee]

Careful with "plain English" arguments. Crawford is fond of these, and as we know, many of his rulings are questionable. Additionally, the intent of "cannot attack" is unclear, as it could mean cannot take the attack action, cannot take any offensive action (which could include detrimental spells and items), cannot inflict direct damage, etc.

Just specifically banning the attack action is, I think, the intent. But that probably is best saved for another thread.

[Safety Sword]

Traditionally, this is done using a staff with a blue crystal, which is also useful if someone gets breathed on. And there's supposed to be a race of degenerate dwarves living in the city, too.



In that case you just wait to be attacked near the well. When it gets really dark and the ranger's face melts off, you know things are going as they should.

Oh, and then stumble into the ancient temple and become a cleric of "How about no, Mr. Dragon". Use your staff of Vibrating Dragons Apart for maximum buzzing and dragon exploding.

[Osrogue]

A rogue 4 fighter 1, a paladin, a berserker barbarian, and a dragon sorcerer can technically brute force this with some twinned fly spells, a successful opening sneak attack, a lot of kiting, the sacrifices of the rogue and barbarian, and the novas of the paladin and sorcerer, and most importantly, average rolls or better.

[ClintACK]

BTW, mono-class parties like "4 fighters" are illegal per the terms of the OP. They have to be all different classes.

Oops.

Crap. I really liked 3 Assassins and a Hunter... I'll have to think about it. A berserker could do close to Assassin damage, and maybe a Fighter-BM to give the assassin another sneak attack on his turn?


If surprise rounds don't work...

#9) Glyphs of Warding: Tick, Tick, Boom!This one's pretty cheap, and depends on how the DM adjudicates stacking Glyphs of Warding.

Party: Wizard, Bard, Cleric + Sorlock (for EB+Quick EB with Repelling)

Step 1: Find the entrance to the cavern, and learn the dragon's schedule. Need to find a place either in the entrance or near the entrance where the dragon won't pass for two days.
Step 2: Wizard, Bard, and Cleric each cast two Glyphs of Warding at the chosen spot, set to trigger on Dragon. Explosive Runes, not acid.
Step 3: Long Rest. Repeat Step 2. Long Rest. Repeat Step 2.
Step 4: 18 Glyphs of Warding. Lure dragon (Familiars? Illusions?)
Step 5: Lure the dragon onto the spot, or Sorlock shoves him there.
Step 6: Dragon takes half of 18x5d8 damage, plus more for the failed saves.
Expected Damage: 202 damage (+ about 60 more for failed saves).

Result: Dead Dragon.
Cost: 3600 gp of diamond dust. 2 long rests.

[Gwendol]

I liked the three assassins + 1 hunter as well. Hunter Ranger, Assassin, BM Fighter, FB Barbarian. Same as the Dream Team, Fighter action surges (uses PAM) for four attacks + two bonus attacks. FB gets two attacks + 1 bonus attack. Hunter ranger gets two attacks + colossus slayer damage?

[Gwendol]

Really, any harmful effect you put on another creature (or object I guess) should be considered an attack. Weapon, Grpaple, Fireball, and Power Word Kill...

It is finicky and bass ackwards to say that throwing a fireball at a creature isn't attacking them. It goes against the basic English ideology and it goes against the anti-fiddly ideology.

I haven't met a single new player, and many veteran D&D players, who doesn't get confused on what is an attack and what is not. Not because they can't understand the rules but because they don't follow basic English.

Edit

Grapple is an attack based on the basic English ideology and it replacing a weapon attack.

"Considered" and "is" are different words. Launching a fireball is like throwing a grenade, of course it's an attack. Grappling is just holding someone in place. No harm done.

[Slipperychicken]

We skip town with the magic items, have adventures that aren't suicide-missions for nine levels, then come back for the dragon if we aren't dead by that point.

[MaxWilson]

We skip town with the magic items, have adventures that aren't suicide-missions for nine levels, then come back for the dragon if we aren't dead by that point.

Sure, you can do that, but there's a cost: now your hometown is destroyed, many of your friends and relatives are dead, and the rest are refugees. If you choose you may acquire a new Bond or Flaw relating to survivor's guilt or a desire for vengeance on the dragon.

If you can deal with the dragon up-front, you'll avoid all of those issues.

[Slipperychicken]

Sure, you can do that, but there's a cost: now your hometown is destroyed, many of your friends and relatives are dead, and the rest are refugees. If you choose you may acquire a new Bond or Flaw relating to survivor's guilt or a desire for vengeance on the dragon.

If you can deal with the dragon up-front, you'll avoid all of those issues.

Awesome. Now I have a backstory, internal conflict, a natural villain for the DM to use as a big bad, and a driving motivation for at least the next nine levels.

[KorvinStarmast]

Frightful Presence.
Each creature of the dragon’s choice that is within 120 feet of the dragon and aware of it must succeed on a DC 16 Wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 1 minute. In that minute the Dragon can defeat the party in detail with little problem.

How do you put a dragon to sleep? If the dragon is awake, that ability (thanks to the lvl-CR differential) demands some provision be made to boost Wisdom saves. (Or that might inform party composition ...)

FWIW, 1e adult black dragons (what Dragon lance was built around) were rank 5 of 8 in terms of difficulty. In 5e, adult black dragons are rank 4 of 5, in terms of difficulty. 1e Black Dragons had 6-8 HD, and had 5 HP per die by rule. 30, 35, or 40 HP. While it still had the fear aura and some other hard to deal with features, a few lucky blows and some very good tactics might do the trick.

All that said, love some of the ideas put forth.

[R.Shackleford]

"Considered" and "is" are different words. Launching a fireball is like throwing a grenade, of course it's an attack. Grappling is just holding someone in place. No harm done.

Oh please.

Harm has nothing to do with an attack, if I take a swing at someone that is attacking them... Even if I miss.

If I go grapple some person on the street, I'm getting arrested for attacking them.

People need to stop trying to compound things and make 5e a fiddly mess.

Is the action harmful/debilitating*? Attack.

If it buffing/healing them? Not an attack.

Grapples are harmful because you are subduing a creature against their will on order to bring further actions upon them later. If two guys jumped another guy, one guy held him down while the other one stabbed him... Did two people attack the third guy (call him Mr goblin) or did one?

Use basic English and many things stop being so damn troublesome. Wasn't that one of the main tenants of 5e?

[ClintACK]

We skip town with the magic items, have adventures that aren't suicide-missions for nine levels, then come back for the dragon if we aren't dead by that point.

This is, of course, the 100% correct Combat-as-War answer.

And the follow-ups demonstrate why Combat-as-War is so much more fun than Combat-as-Sport.

But I'm still taking this as a Combat-as-Sport challenge. :)

It feels like there ought to be a way to do it with an enlarged raging athletics-expert Rogue 1/Barbarian 4 keeping the dragon pinned in place. Lots of buffs and bonus-action-healing to keep him alive while pouring ranged death at the dragon.

But I worry about how powerful the lair actions are against a 5th level party. It's pretty weird that lair actions don't scale at all -- a Wyrmling's lair is just as powerful as an Ancient Dragon's lair. Same damage, same save DCs, same battlefield control capabilities.

Edit-to-add:

[Frightful Presence] In that minute the Dragon can defeat the party in detail with little problem.

Just one of many reasons I was trying to build a party that could kill (or mostly kill) the dragon before it got to act. (The Frightful Presence takes an Action, it isn't a passive effect.)

But the "Frightened" condition isn't nearly as bad as it was in 3.5e. The frightened characters don't need to flee -- they just can't approach. The disadvantage on all attacks is pretty crippling, though. And all of the really good defenses against fear aura seem to kick in above 5th level.

[KorvinStarmast]

In support of R Shackleford's point ... the text of the rules seems to me unambiguous.
When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
I don't understand why people try to make things overly complicated.


It feels like there ought to be a way to do it with an enlarged raging athletics-expert Rogue 1/Barbarian 4 keeping the dragon pinned in place. How so? Enlarged from Medium to Large,


This growth increases its size by one category— from Medium to Large, for example Large tries to Grapple Huge, which is at disadvantage due to size difference? (Or maybe I recall that incorrectly, and the dragon gets advantage to break grapple?).
Str of Black Dragon 23 (+6) Proficiency Bonus +5 for CR 14, if prof bonus to be applied. (DM call).

But I worry about how powerful the lair actions are against a 5th level party. Yep, that's the bugger. Dragons in their lairs are far more powerful in 5e than they were in 1e when Dragonlance was created.

[SharkForce]

the 4 warlock and 4 sorclock teams were terribly unoptimized.

devil's sight on all, darkness from one of them, hex from the other 3, *now* you do your alpha strike with advantage (you attack from full range, so in round one the dragon can't use blindsight).

maybe have a single human variant character to pick up magic initiate and cast bless instead of hex.

of course, that combo of characters wasn't actually allowed, but really, you can do much better damage if you just want to nova with a sorclock.

in any event, the dragon doesn't get proficiency to defend against grapples. we know exactly what kind of check you use to defend against grapples, and the dragon is not proficient. there's no vagueness at all, and while it is technically DM's call, that is only because *everything* is technically the DM's call. we're not being told this is an athlete or acrobat dragon, so by default, not proficient. and honestly, even with disadvantage i favour the fighter's odds of winning a grapple... especially if he can get some help (or maybe have a warlock hex the dragon's strength).

not that i expect grappling to be *that* helpful anyways.

[ClintACK]

Grappling the dragon...

Enlarged is required just to make it possible at all. You have to be within one size category.

The rogue/barbarian will get +4+3+3=+10 athletics (expertise)
Raging gives advantage on all Strength checks. (As does enlarge)
Enlarged makes him large (Medium *can't* grapple Huge at all.)
One of the ranged-types Hexes the dragon on Strength.

Now the dragon is a +6 athletics at disadvantage.
And the Barbarian is a +10 athletics at advantage.


I don't *think* there are size modifiers, aside from a blanket rule that you can't grapple something two size categories larger than you. It would definitely make sense, but is it written anywhere? (In 3.5e grappling size modifiers were important because grappling was about pinning and incapacitating an opponent. In 5e, it's really just about keeping them from moving, or dragging them from place to place.)


Str of Black Dragon 23 (+6) Proficiency Bonus +5 for CR 14, if prof bonus to be applied. (DM call).

I thought MM critters were assumed not to be proficient in skills not listed in the Skills section. So the MM adult black dragon is proficient in Stealth and has expertise in Perception. (The latter is why it's so hard to get in a surprise round --- stealth-expertise, maxed-dex, and Pass Without a Trace still isn't good enough without everyone taking the Lucky feat.)

Edit:

the 4 warlock and 4 sorclock teams were terribly unoptimized.
I'm sure that's true.

But you can't cast darkness and 3 hexes and still have a full surprise-round attack. You just get one EB from each caster, because the other actions are used for darkness and hex. (Still probably worth it -- advantage and hex will have paid for the opportunity cost by the end of the next round.)


not that i expect grappling to be *that* helpful anyways.
It's about keeping the dragon from flying. The nightmare scenario is the dragon repeatedly flying by with breath-weapon attacks.

It's not that a well-built party can't out-damage the dragon on flybys (readied action to range attack + staggered party so it can only hit one or two at a time with the breath) -- it's that flying means the dragon decides whether or not to keep fighting. If the dragon wants to do another flyby, he can. If the dragon wants to leave, he can. You can't kill an intelligent opponent that has total control over whether or when the battle continues.

[MaxWilson]

This is, of course, the 100% correct Combat-as-War answer.

And the follow-ups demonstrate why Combat-as-War is so much more fun than Combat-as-Sport.

But I'm still taking this as a Combat-as-Sport challenge. :)

It also fits within the Combat As War paradigm--if you can manage to kill this dragon and loot its (probable) 280,000 gp-value horde complete with magical items, it will make the rest of your adventures much, much easier.

But yeah, a Combat As War answer will probably include more than just the four PCs. I outlined a partially Combat As War answer earlier involving hiding in the bushes to gain advantage; but there's no reason you wouldn't hire a bunch of mercenaries at the same time. Twenty or thirty gnolls or human guards with crossbows out to do it, depending on who you have better relationships with. You do still need to bait the dragon to within range of your attacks, as before, but now when you open up with everything you've got the dragon is probably dead in a single round.

And it's a black dragon so it's not even good at AoEs. As before, the main challenge is to prevent it from getting away and CAWing you right back. This is mainly a psychological challenge.


But the "Frightened" condition isn't nearly as bad as it was in 3.5e. The frightened characters don't need to flee -- they just can't approach. The disadvantage on all attacks is pretty crippling, though. And all of the really good defenses against fear aura seem to kick in above 5th level.

If you're worried about Frightened, Heroism III will take care of it for you for three characters. Although heavy obscurement of some sort (e.g. Darkness spell) does it cheaper and scales better, as long as you do it from beyond the dragon's blindsight radius. One Darkness spell could negate disadvantage from Fear (and/or long range) for ten or fifteen human-sized archers.

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devil's sight on all, darkness from one of them, hex from the other 3, *now* you do your alpha strike with advantage (you attack from full range, so in round one the dragon can't use blindsight).

At "full range", you can't Hex. Hex only has a range of 90'.

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Large tries to Grapple Huge, which is at disadvantage due to size difference? (Or maybe I recall that incorrectly, and the dragon gets advantage to break grapple?).
Str of Black Dragon 23 (+6) Proficiency Bonus +5 for CR 14, if prof bonus to be applied. (DM call).

Large can grapple Huge with no disadvantage in 5E. The dragon is not proficient in Athletics so no proficiency bonus. (Many Giants are proficient in Athletics, and Stone Giants even have Athletics Expertise, but no dragon that I am aware of is proficient in Athletics although it is proficient in Stealth and has Expertise in Perception.)

Enlarged human has advantage on Strength checks and +5 or +6ish on Athletics. That gives the human about a 59% chance to win the contest (64% if he's got +6). If the dragon has disadvantage on Strength checks due to Hex the odds of success go up a little bit more, to 77% (81% with +6). If the human has Extra Attack then he gets two attempts.

[Gwendol]

Oh please.

Harm has nothing to do with an attack, if I take a swing at someone that is attacking them... Even if I miss.

If I go grapple some person on the street, I'm getting arrested for attacking them.

People need to stop trying to compound things and make 5e a fiddly mess.

Is the action harmful/debilitating*? Attack.

If it buffing/healing them? Not an attack.

Grapples are harmful because you are subduing a creature against their will on order to bring further actions upon them later. If two guys jumped another guy, one guy held him down while the other one stabbed him... Did two people attack the third guy (call him Mr goblin) or did one?

Use basic English and many things stop being so damn troublesome. Wasn't that one of the main tenants of 5e?

Eh, of course grappling someone is attacking them. The question was in a game context if a grapple is always an Attack (action). Multiattack isn't, for example. What was it you said about "basic English"?

Opening a flood gate can be very harmful for those downstream, but it's not an attack. Greasing a floor tile in some way (banana peel, flask of oil) is not an attack.

[R.Shackleford]

Eh, of course grappling someone is attacking them. The question was in a game context if a grapple is always an Attack (action). Multiattack isn't, for example. What was it you said about "basic English"?

Opening a flood gate can be very harmful for those downstream, but it's not an attack. Greasing a floor tile in some way (banana peel, flask of oil) is not an attack.

Grapple says it is a special attack.

The game uses basic english (one of the core ideology of 5e).

Grease should be an attack depending on how you use it. Cast it directly under someone? Attack. Cast it on a floor to be used as part of a trap? Not attacking (though later the trap, depending on set up, can be an attack).

The game is using its own dictionary for what is an attack and what isn't and that's a bad thing. But pretending like something that says it is an attack isn't an attack is just... Weird.


"Grappling

When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them."

-5esrd.