Non-Humanoid Grappling

[thedanster7000]

If a dragon wanted to grapple someone, would it be a sensible ruling that it grapples with its jaws instead of hand (as it doesn't really have hands that work for grappling)?

[hymer]

If a dragon wanted to grapple someone, would it be a sensible ruling that it grapples with its jaws instead of hand (as it doesn't really have hands that work for grappling)?

What makes you think they can't grapple with their claws?

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/animals-hunt-hunter-hunting-guns-ducks-rmcn217_low.jpg

[thedanster7000]

What makes you think they can't grapple with their claws?

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/animals-hunt-hunter-hunting-guns-ducks-rmcn217_low.jpg

Looking at some of the Ancient Dragon pictures in the MM and they just don't look capable of sustaining a grip.

[hymer]

Looking at some of the Ancient Dragon pictures in the MM and they just don't look capable of sustaining a grip.

I think dragons are supposed to have quite dexterous digits, though I'll agree the green one's forelimbs look somewhat clumsy. If you want to go with that impression: How about having the dragon press the target between the draconic limb and draconic body?

[thedanster7000]

I think dragons are supposed to have quite dexterous digits, though I'll agree the green one's forelimbs look somewhat clumsy. If you want to go with that impression: How about having the dragon press the target between the draconic limb and draconic body?

I suppose I don't have to follow the illustrations exactly in-game anyway, I think you're right about them being able to grip stuff, traditionally at least.

[RickAllison]

I suppose I don't have to follow the illustrations exactly in-game anyway, I think you're right about them being able to grip stuff, traditionally at least.

This is a good topic, though. Constrictors grapple by the body (which could potentially grapple more than one of the smaller creatures), crocodilians grapple by jaws, etc. but what about a bear? It has neither the dexterous digits, nor the prehensile body, nor the giant jaws to grapple someone.

[hymer]

[...] what about a bear? It has neither the dexterous digits, nor the prehensile body, nor the giant jaws to grapple someone.

I think they're traditionally of the hugging persuasion. :smallsmile:

[TheProfessor85]

I think most dragons would grip people with the floor, more or less stepping on them.

[Regitnui]

Well, a number of nonhumanoids in the MM grapple with more dextrous parts of their bodies; a Chuul, for example, can grapple with both its claws and tentacles for a grand total of three. A marilith grapples with its tail, and a behir with its whole body. An ankheg is another noticeable example, grappling with its outermost jaws.

What does this mean for the dragons? Well, a dragon pinning an adventurer to the ground while delivering a threat is a common enough scene to justify grappling with their feet. A dragon could possibly pick someone up in their foreclaws, judging by the red dragon artwork, but that would be less effective when they can just use their weight to hold the grapple. Brass Dragons are known for pinning creatures to the ground for refusing to chat, for example. Mechanically, that's a grapple.

A dragon could bite down and grapple a creature in its jaws, but I'd think most dragons are smart enough to bite once and keep their mouths clear for a breath weapon. Though, I suppose a particularly sadistic or annoyed dragon might hold a creature in its mouth while unleashing a breath weapon: automatic failed save :smalleek:

[R.Shackleford]

I think they're traditionally of the hugging persuasion. :smallsmile:

And much like a cat, when their claws get into something it is grappled.

[thedanster7000]

A dragon could possibly pick someone up in their foreclaws, judging by the red dragon artwork, but that would be less effective when they can just use their weight to hold the grapple.
I was thinking more grappling, flying up, and dropping from an unfortunate height.

[Envyus]

Dragons can easily grab other creatures with their claws. They are shown doing so in art as well.

http://i.imgur.com/XpBYLcJ.jpg

[Regitnui]

I was thinking more grappling, flying up, and dropping from an unfortunate height.

Less reliable than you might think. Feather fall is a low-level spell and a lot of magic items in lore are enchanted with it. Much easier to pin them to the floor and dig claws into them, from a dragon's perspective. Yeah, dropping a PC from a height might be cool, but a dragon knows about feather fall, and probably wouldn't count on it to kill anything. A wyvern or less intelligent flying beast, maybe.

[JumboWheat01]

Less reliable than you might think. Feather fall is a low-level spell and a lot of magic items in lore are enchanted with it. Much easier to pin them to the floor and dig claws into them, from a dragon's perspective. Yeah, dropping a PC from a height might be cool, but a dragon knows about feather fall, and probably wouldn't count on it to kill anything. A wyvern or less intelligent flying beast, maybe.

Does a dragon REALLY know about feather fall? Sounds a little meta-gaming there.

Even if something is feather falling, it's fairly exposed in a wide open area. A lot of chromatic dragons would be vindictive enough that if something countered its drop from a high level with something as "rude" as feather fall, it would promptly be blasted with a breath weapon. And it's kinda hard to do a DEX save when you only move in one direction, down.

(Almost said Reflex save there, dunno why, been playing Baldur's Gate most of late, that's a Breath save...)

[RickAllison]

Does a dragon REALLY know about feather fall? Sounds a little meta-gaming there.

Even if something is feather falling, it's fairly exposed in a wide open area. A lot of chromatic dragons would be vindictive enough that if something countered its drop from a high level with something as "rude" as feather fall, it would promptly be blasted with a breath weapon. And it's kinda hard to do a DEX save when you only move in one direction, down.

(Almost said Reflex save there, dunno why, been playing Baldur's Gate most of late, that's a Breath save...)

Considering that every other hedge wizard seems to have FF, it is entirely reasonable for a dragon to know about it. Especially since the dragon has likely attempted to drop someone before, only to see them glide gently to the ground.

[Plaguescarred]

I'd say normally a monster use standard grapple rules unless it's statblock says otherwise. But as a DM i reserve myself the right to have some monster grapple with any part of it's anatomy other than an hand, provided it make some sense of course i.e a bulettte's mouth, a grick or giant snake's tail etc..

[Regitnui]

Does a dragon REALLY know about feather fall? Sounds a little meta-gaming there.

Even if something is feather falling, it's fairly exposed in a wide open area. A lot of chromatic dragons would be vindictive enough that if something countered its drop from a high level with something as "rude" as feather fall, it would promptly be blasted with a breath weapon. And it's kinda hard to do a DEX save when you only move in one direction, down.

(Almost said Reflex save there, dunno why, been playing Baldur's Gate most of late, that's a Breath save...)


Considering that every other hedge wizard seems to have FF, it is entirely reasonable for a dragon to know about it. Especially since the dragon has likely attempted to drop someone before, only to see them glide gently to the ground.

Also, a just-hatched dragon's mental facilities are the equal or better of most humanoids. By the time they're big enough to pick up adventurers and drop them, they've probably gathered at least one item enchanted with feather fall. A adult or ancient dragon is more than twice as smart, wise and charismatic than any adventurer. My question is why wouldn't they know any third-level or below spell that a wizard or sorcerer could whip out? Even I know the spell components for fireball, and I'm only a Int 17 bard.