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View Full Version : 3rd Ed Crazy idea: what if Leadership wasn't a feat, but a short PrC?



OttoVonBigby
2016-06-18, 03:03 PM
The degree to which Leadership is powerful and/or overpowered and/or broken has been amply discussed elsewhere. But as I was trying to finesse some houserules for it, I had the wild thought that maybe it should be a generic, 2- or 3- level PrC. It'd definitely change Leadership from "the feat that, mechanically, every character should take in a campaign that allows it" to "a couple levels that require some consideration before taking."

Something like...
1st - Cohort; leadership score (base)
2nd - Followers; leadership score +1
3rd? - Special cohort? (DMG 199); leadership score +1

Rationale:
1- Taking the DMG feat version represents so much "off-screen" time invested by the PC that it's easily comparable to at least one class level in that respect. It really seems like it'd affect who that PC is, in the same way that class levels do.
2- The DMG feat is arguably powerful enough that, if it were a spell, you might design it to have an XP cost, and XP cost is kinda like a class level, even if you houserule away the multiclassing penalty.
3- Anybody who had planned to use the DMG feat merely for gathering a train of armor-cleaners and loot-haulers didn't need the feat in the first place and wouldn't need this PrC; that's what hirelings are for.

Issues:
A- Would it have to be a bizarro PrC with, like, HD/BAB/saves/skills "as previous class," like if it was a template? But that opens up the question "which previous class?" for somebody with 2+ classes before entering this PrC...maybe just "whichever one the player wants, outside of any multiclassing constraints (e.g. paladin)."
B- If this is a PrC, it's a larger investment by the PC, which makes it more incumbent upon the DM to not be a jerk about the whole "leadership" concept by saying "oop, they all caught the plague and died" or whatever.
C- Most of the Leadership-oriented feats could simply require 1-2 levels of this...but what to do about Undead Leadership (Libris Mortis)?
D- A generic PrC seems to call for a generic name... "Leader"? :/

Again...just a wild idea. I'm probably missing something huge. Feel free to rip this apart!

Geddy2112
2016-06-18, 03:40 PM
Pathfinder has a PrC called noble scion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/noble-scion) that does this at second level and gives a few other leadership bonuses as it levels. Might be worth a look for the inspiration related things. It also helps deal with different classes entering the PrC, and gives a decent BAB/save progression.

Necroticplague
2016-06-18, 03:49 PM
Issues:
A- Would it have to be a bizarro PrC with, like, HD/BAB/saves/skills "as previous class," like if it was a template? But that opens up the question "which previous class?" for somebody with 2+ classes before entering this PrC...maybe just "whichever one the player wants, outside of any multiclassing constraints (e.g. paladin)."

I'm not sure this is a good idea. Some classes have their poor chassis balanced against their good class features, so just carrying the chassis over with no other benefits unfairly penalizes some classes for taking the PRC, compared to others (or else just encourages incredibly weird dipping just to abuse for this purpose). Just give it average-middle of road progressions all around.

Bakkan
2016-06-18, 04:24 PM
The Thrallherd is a prestige class that does something similar that you may be able to get inspiration from.

OttoVonBigby
2016-06-19, 09:10 AM
All right, here is a workup. I borrowed and modified a couple things from noble scion, and folded in the Undead Leadership and special cohort stuff. PEACH:

The Torchbearer
(the feats Leadership and Undead Leadership (Libris Mortis) would be unavailable in a campaign featuring this PrC)

Prereqs-
Alignment: Any, though a nongood alignment is required to attract undead into the retinue (see the relevant class features below).
Skills: Diplomacy 3 ranks. Additionally, 1 rank in Knowledge (religion) is required to attract undead into the retinue (see the relevant class features below).
Special:
- Base (i.e., unmodified by magic items etc.) ability score of 17 in at least one ability
- ECL 5
- Cannot be a member of a torchbearer's retinue or similar type of follower.
The ability score minimum is...just something I like. It further justifies being able to attract a retinue, and since you can pick the ability score, it doesn't discriminate on the basis of class.

The ECL prereq is because, per PHB pg. 87, you can add a feat at the same level you first qualify for it; thus, level 1 of torchbearer for a character of ECL 5 would correlate to a level 6 character taking the DMG Leadership feat at the earliest opportunity. And it seemed logical for templates or racial HD to count for something in the eyes of recruits.

The third one is to prevent cohorts from having cohorts and related shenanigans.
Class skills: Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spot (Wis)
4 skill pts; d6 HD; BAB as bard; poor Fort, poor Ref, good Will

Lvl 1- Negotiator, retinue, servitor
Lvl 2- Cohort, happy hirelings, training regimen
Lvl 3- Followers
Lvl 4- Leading light, training regimen
So obviously, even taking one PrC level is a bigger investment than taking the DMG Leadership feat. My major concern with this spread as-is is: might it be TOO onerous to make the character wait for 2 PrC levels before getting the cohort, and/or 3 for the followers? (It's so tough to balance "no one would ever do this" with "anybody with brains would do this"! Ah, the Great Leadership Conundrum.)
Negotiator: Torchbearers invest considerable time and energy in recruitment, and through trial and error, they quickly learn the dos and don'ts. At 1st level, a torchbearer gains Negotiator as a bonus feat.

Retinue: The allies recruited by a torchbearer using these class features—his servitor, cohort, hirelings (if any), and followers—are known collectively as his retinue. Torchbearers may attempt to attract recruits of specific backgrounds and abilities. The DM determines the races and classes of all available retinue NPCs, but the torchbearer determines which available NPCs to accept as retinue members. The torchbearer reserves the right to reject all such NPCs available at a given time/place in the campaign and retry recruitment, but doing so takes in-game time. The DM designs the accepted NPCs, but the torchbearer has input about how they advance in levels after allying with him. The DM controls the retinue as NPCs, in combat and out, but they take most orders given by the torchbearer.

This class feature functions as the replacement prerequisite for feats and prestige classes that require the DMG Leadership feat.
Naturally subject to alteration depending on the group's/DM's preferences. If you trust the torchbearer player to run the NPC and save you a little hassle, go for it.
Servitor: The torchbearer's first retinue member is a nonadventurer who can function as an errand-runner, majordomo, manservant, or messenger, depending on the torchbearer's needs. At 1st level, a torchbearer gains a faithful NPC servitor of the same level as if it were a cohort (see the rules and tables for cohorts in the Dungeon Master's Guide). This servitor can only have (and can only subsequently gain) levels in commoner, expert, or warrior and comes equipped with gear appropriate for a character 1 level lower than the servitor's actual level. The servitor does not follow the torchbearer as would a cohort or follower, but instead can run various errands for his master while the torchbearer is adventuring, such as delivering messages, maintaining his master's manor in his stead, or even assisting with recruitment.

Cohort: Often serving as a bodyguard or lieutenant, a torchbearer's cohort will fight alongside him. See the rules and tables for cohorts in the Dungeon Master's Guide (pgs. 104-107).

A 2nd-level torchbearer may recruit a cohort from the special cohorts list from DMG pg. 199. Moreover, if the torchbearer has at least one rank in Knowledge (religion) and a nongood alignment, he may recruit an undead cohort as described on pages 31-33 of Libris Mortis.

Happy Hirelings: Hirelings (DMG pg. 105-106) in a torchbearer's employ gain a degree of fulfillment merely by serving in his cause. A torchbearer of 2nd level and higher may neglect to pay a regular wage to his hirelings for up to a number of days equal to 6 + his total Bluff or Diplomacy skill modifier (whichever is higher) without any effect on the hirelings' attitude toward him. Hazard pay is not affected by this class feature. A torchbearer may use this class feature once per four months at torchbearer level 2, minus one month at class levels 3 and 4.

Training: While occupied with recruitment activities, torchbearers make an effort to exercise those abilities that contribute to their capacity for attracting a retinue in the first place, since the nature of recruitment makes it difficult to go on dungeon crawls. Moreover, many torchbearers take on the role of instructor, training members of their retinue—and learning some new things themselves in the process. At 2nd level, a torchbearer selects one of the following regimens. At 4th level, he again chooses a regimen, and if it is a duplicate of the one previously chosen, the bonuses stack.

- Combat Regimen: The torchbearer gains a combat-oriented bonus feat. He must meet all prerequisites for the selected feat.

- Magical Regimen: The torchbearer gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one spellcasting class he belonged to previously.

- Performance Regimen: The torchbearer treats his effective bard or marshal level as two higher for the purpose of the bardic music or aura (respectively) class ability. If the torchbearer has levels in more than one of these classes, he must specify which class his performance regimen applies to.

- Precision Regimen: The torchbearer gains a +1d6 skirmish, sneak attack, or sudden strike bonus as per the scout/rogue/ninja class abilities. If the torchbearer gets a precision damage bonus from another source, the bonuses stack.

- Psionic Regimen: The torchbearer gains additional power points per day and access to new powers as if he had also gained a level in any one manifesting class he belonged to previously.

- Skill Regimen: The torchbearer gains a bonus skill trick.

Followers: A torchbearer eventually expands his retinue with a number of lower-level followers who are prepared to accompany him into the field, and who are well-suited to use as scouts, spies, messengers, errand-runners, or guards. See the rules and tables for followers in the Dungeon Master's Guide (pgs. 104-107).

If the torchbearer has at least one rank in Knowledge (religion) and a nongood alignment, he may seek out undead followers as described on pages 31-33 of Libris Mortis.

Leading Light: At 4th level, a torchbearer has gained considerable experience and perspective that help him administer, encourage, and inspire his retinue. The torchbearer's leadership score increases by 2.
Yeah, admittedly it's a little tacked-on. But since it's better than most if not all Leadership-boosting feats (due to the 2nd regimen), it's not at all inconceivable that certain characters might want to take it, even if most would admittedly just go back to their main career after torchbearer 3. I might add a class feature to level 4, or even level 5 if warranted, if one crosses my path that isn't too imbalancing.

That's it. Obviously more of an undertaking than just "I took Leadership, boom," but then, that was the whole point. It ain't Thrallherd, nor should it be IMO, but I think it's still potent in the manner of Leadership. Thoughts?