Ultimate Magus theurge question

[schreier]

OK .. trying a theoretical optimization again.

Using a Domain Wizard level 5 and Archivist level 3 ... with the Spontaneous Divination ACF and these feats: alternative source spell, spell mastery and uncanny forethought.

Ultimate Magus requires:
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks.
Feats: Any metamagic feat.
Spellcasting: Able to spontaneously cast 1st-level arcane spells, able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells from a spellbook

I believe that Spontaneous Divination should allow the Domain wizard to qualify as a "existing spontaneous arcane casting class" and Alternative Source Spell should allow the Archivist to qualify as "existing prepared arcane casting class"

Does this make sense? I think it's somewhat (or very) rules lawyery --- but not really abusive --- and I believe it should work with RAW (and be a better version of a Theurge).

Honestly, reading RAW, I think you could qualify at 5 Wizard/1 Archivist (using the Wizard class to satisfy both "cast spontaneous" and "cast from a spellbook" in the requirement, then using the level increases to raise Archivist and Wizard.

Any thoughts?
schreier

[Bakkan]

In order for this to work, you have to consider a wizard with Spontaneous Divination to be a "spontaneous arcane casting class" (dubious) and an archivist with Alternative Source Spell to be a "prepared arcane casting class" (even more dubious).

This would not fly at my table and I don't believe it's RAW.

[Troacctid]

Archivist is not an arcane casting class and wizard is not a spontaneous casting class, so no, it does not work.

However, you could use mystic theurge to the same end.

[schreier]

I guess my question comes down to definitions.

What is an arcane spellcasting class? What is a divine spellcasting class? What is a spontaneous casting class? Is it the primary original casting type?

Would Rainbow Servant make a sorcerer or Wizard or Beguiler into a Divine and Arcane class, or is it just arcane? If you have the arcane preparation feat - I assume you'd say it's still exclusively spontaneous?

[ExLibrisMortis]

You would qualify for Ultimate Magus, because you can spontaneously cast spells, and prepare spells, as required. However, you can't apply the PrC's progression to archivist, and not all of it to wizard, so it is of limited use. A wizard is not a spontaneous class, even if it can cast many spells spontaneously, and in the same way, an archivist is not an arcane class, even if it can cast many spells as arcane spells.

Taking levels in Rainbow Servant doesn't make any base class divine. There aren't any abilities that turn arcane classes into divine classes, just occasionally individual spells, and spells can change list quite frequently.

[Troacctid]

What is an arcane spellcasting class? What is a divine spellcasting class?
A class that grants arcane spells is an arcane spellcasting class, and a class that grants divine spells is a divine spellcasting class.


What is a spontaneous casting class?
Spontaneous casters do not require a spellbook, nor do they prepare spells. They can cast any spell they know from a daily allotment of spell slots.


Would Rainbow Servant make a sorcerer or Wizard or Beguiler into a Divine and Arcane class
No.


If you have the arcane preparation feat - I assume you'd say it's still exclusively spontaneous?
For the purpose of progressing it with ultimate magus, yes.

By the way, none of this is really TO material. All you've got here is a worse version of mystic theurge.

[schreier]

It was more theoretical than practical, like I said - it expands into other builds - this is just a "try to answer the questions in one build" post (for example, could a warmage 1/rainbow servant 10 qualify for a divine spellcasting prestige class)

The easiest answer is "base class only, without adjustment" - which is what most seem to be going with here.

[Troacctid]

(for example, could a warmage 1/rainbow servant 10 qualify for a divine spellcasting prestige class)
That one actually depends on the class.

[schreier]

If the requirement is "cast divine spells" - then yes, if it is "divine spellcasting class" - then no? And it would be possible to qualify for a prestige class that requires "casting 3rd level divine spells" - but the related increase in spellcasting would not apply (since he doesn't have any divine spellcasting class)

Knight of the Raven requires "Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level divine spells."

So a Beguiler/Rainbow servant would qualify .... BUT spellcasting says: "At each level above 1st, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level." .... so the character would not increase spellcaster level

[Troacctid]

Knight of the Raven requires "Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level divine spells."

So a Beguiler/Rainbow servant would qualify .... BUT spellcasting says: "At each level above 1st, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level." .... so the character would not increase spellcaster level
Correct. On the other hand, divine prankster would work just fine.