How to screw over Hel's plan

[Alex Warlorn]

A way to screw over Hel's plan? Just have Thor or the priests or the king of the dwarves demigod tell the people that "we need to blow up the world to save the universe and all the souls of the living." And Dwarves, who are IRON CLAD in their sense of duty more often than not, their turns it into a massive SELF-SACRIFICE, rather than dishoranble death, after all, what's more noble than self sacrifice? They don't even NEED to give details about the Snarl or the Gates!

[Porthos]

I must admit, I never fail to be surprised at just how many anti-Hel theories revolve around millions of dead dwarves.

I mean, what the hell did those poor dwarves ever do to folks to deserve so many people trying to find more and more inventive ways to snuff them all out?

(this of course sets aside the whole <makes air quotes> "heroic story" <finishes making air quotes> that Rich seems bound and determined to write)

EDIT:::: This also sets aside the minor, itsy bitsy, little detail of... EVERYONE IN THE WORLD DYING!!!

Seems kinda a Bad Plan to me. :smalltongue:

[Yendor]

A religiously-motivated group commits mass suicide and takes countless other people with them.

<sarcasm>
There's something wrong with this, but I just can't put my finger on it.
</sarcasm>

[Porthos]

I would also point out, aside from the ever so slightly inconvenient fact of millions and millions and millions of dead folks of all creeds and kinds, this isn't exactly screwing over Hel THAT much.

Sure, she won't be Queen of the Pantheon. But she also won't be under the restrictions of he current wager, which means she is back to even footing with the rest of the gods.

She might not finish first right out of the gate (a-heh), but she'll still be more powerful in the next world than this one since she'll have a steady stream of worshipers to augment her power.

Not being in Last Place and having a regular voice in proceedings is still a decent consolation prize, you know.

[Gift Jeraff]

To quote Master Shake, "I know, you've said it like 93 times!"

[Bavarian itP]

http://www.angryflower.com/genoci.gif

[Jasdoif]

I must admit, I never fail to be surprised at just how many anti-Hel theories revolve around millions of dead dwarves.

I mean, what the hell did those poor dwarves ever do to folks to deserve so many people trying to find more and more inventive ways to snuff them all out?You should move on to being surprised at how many theories view "We are going to kill you for something you're not responsible for, and you are going to like it!" to be reflective of honor.

[NerdyKris]

And once again, we jump straight to mass suicide on a global scale, while skipping over "Just freaking tell the dwarves to attack that one group of vampires right there".

Alex is also making the assumption that the gods care about this at all. Hel isn't going to be torturing and beating the other gods, she's just going to be in charge. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss, and all that. They might not like it, but stepping in and just going "nuh uh! We're gonna overtly interfere despite the fact that the author made a point of saying why they don't do that" would pretty much render the entire point of their agreements null and void.

On top of all that, they have no reason to believe the vote is going to be anything other than yes. (or no, or whichever is "don't blow up the world"). They can't hear what's happening in the room. They don't know that Durkon is going to manipulate the one vote that they assume would be "don't unmake reality because it will screw over the dwarves".

[dancrilis]

Thinking about 'How to screw over Hel's plan' I have an idea that doesn't involve suicide that also I don't believe has been discussed yet.

So I think I will hijack this trend to discuss it.

We have reason to believe that Hel's plan is to have the vampires dominate the dwarven elders (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html) to force them to vote for destroying the world, we also know that Durkon teleported out (let us assume a greater teleport to avoid mishaps), and we know that Roy is going after Durkon to prevent that - and that he knows where he is going (town of Firmament (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html)).

Some of what we don't know is:
a) if Durkon knows that current meeting place.
b) how long it will take for the council members to attend.
c) whether Durkon intends to ambush them while they are traveling to the meeting (and thereby likely split his forces), or ambush them when they are in Firmament (and thereby likely under tighter security).
d) what the security of the council consists of.

As such the odds seem to be in favour of Roy to prevent Durkon's plans - assuming that he arrives in time to get off a warning, and without the staff Durkon cannot merely create additional Vampires quickly (unless he researched that spell from the staff).

So this brings us to the plan.
All Roy has to do is: Warn the Dwarven elders to hold there meeting in a private location (i.e not a public location), not to invite vampires inside and have Vaarsuvius (or Elan) dispel any Domination they are under.

I know that this might seem a off the wall idea - but I think that logistically it may be even easier than convincing 10,000,000 beings to kill themselves perhaps especially when you have no evidence to support your claim that it would be a good idea.

[NerdyKris]

Well, your theory involves completely negating any threat from Durkon, so I'd say it's not likely to happen. It would be a pretty boring story if the outcome was "and Durkon's plan failed right from the start.".

[dancrilis]

Well, your theory involves completely negating any threat from Durkon, so I'd say it's not likely to happen. It would be a pretty boring story if the outcome was "and Durkon's plan failed right from the start.".

Well Roy would take dull efficiency over exciting uncertainty any day of the week (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html).

Also thwarting Durkon might only cause him to trigger additional backup plans himself (move onto the gate to destroy it for Hel, begin an underground vampire theocracy devoted to Hel etc).

[Ruck]

So this brings us to the plan.
All Roy has to do is: Warn the Dwarven elders to hold there meeting in a private location (i.e not a public location), not to invite vampires inside and have Vaarsuvius (or Elan) dispel any Domination they are under.

I know that this might seem a off the wall idea - but I think that logistically it may be even easier than convincing 10,000,000 beings to kill themselves perhaps especially when you have no evidence to support your claim that it would be a good idea.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that if Roy gets to the elders before Greg does, that Greg's plan will fail. However, I don't think it'll be that easy, not just for the narrative reasons, but also because Greg has a substantial head start. (I forget which comic says how long it will take the Mechane to reach Firmament, but I think it was at least a full day.)

[Peelee]

A religiously-motivated group commits mass suicide and takes countless other people with them.

<sarcasm>
There's something wrong with this, but I just can't put my finger on it.
</sarcasm>

What you're missing is how honorable it is, obviously. It's honorable religiously-motivated mass suicide that takes countless other people with them.

[Kish]

I wonder if a sticky thread titled, "No, the dwarves will not kill themselves! Stop asking!" would do any good.

[Jasdoif]

And once again, we jump straight to mass suicide on a global scale, while skipping over "Just freaking tell the dwarves to attack that one group of vampires right there".I'm not sure about that, actually....The OP reads like the intent is to reframe deific destruction of the world in an honorable light for the dwarves. Which doesn't actually make any sense to me, but also doesn't involve the dwarves killing themselves before the gods can kill them (and thus neatly sidesteps the question of what would happen to the world if the dwarves kill themselves and the world isn't destroyed).


So this brings us to the plan.
All Roy has to do is: Warn the Dwarven elders to hold there meeting in a private location (i.e not a public location), not to invite vampires inside and have Vaarsuvius (or Elan) dispel any Domination they are under.

I know that this might seem a off the wall idea - but I think that logistically it may be even easier than convincing 10,000,000 beings to kill themselves perhaps especially when you have no evidence to support your claim that it would be a good idea.I think Roy would run into the same "no evidence to support your claim that it would be a good idea" area. All Roy would have to support his claim that he's trying to prevent the vote from being swayed, rather than trying to sway the vote himself by moving it to a location with fewer witnesses for the spellcasters in his employ, is that he has a runestone voluntarily given by the High Priestess of Thor....Which might be enough if the Council of Clans falls under the hierarchy of the church of Thor, and/or if the elders believe the High Priestess of Thor is an excellent judge of character, and/or if they believe Roy couldn't have been dominated just as he says the elders could be. It seems like a hard sell, though.

[dancrilis]

I think Roy would run into the same "no evidence to support your claim that it would be a good idea" area. All Roy would have to support his claim that he's trying to prevent the vote from being swayed, rather than trying to sway the vote himself by moving it to a location with fewer witnesses for the spellcasters in his employ, is that he has a runestone voluntarily given by the High Priestess of Thor....Which might be enough if the Council of Clans falls under the hierarchy of the church of Thor, and/or if the elders believe the High Priestess of Thor is an excellent judge of character, and/or if they believe Roy couldn't have been dominated just as he says the elders could be. It seems like a hard sell, though.

Very true - but I still think it is an easier sell than 'your entire race should die', at the least he might be able to convince them to go somewhere private with there own guards and to have protection from evil cast on themselves.

After all assuming that Durkon is a fairly standard member of his race than some of them are raised to hate the undead (I jess hate them undead so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html)) and seek there destruction rather than dialogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0872.html).

As such assuming that this prejudice is something of a cultural issue (rather than Durkon specific) Roy may be able to convince the Dwarves to not invite the vampires (if he buys some garlic he might be sorted also).


Yes, I'm pretty sure that if Roy gets to the elders before Greg does, that Greg's plan will fail. However, I don't think it'll be that easy, not just for the narrative reasons, but also because Greg has a substantial head start. (I forget which comic says how long it will take the Mechane to reach Firmament, but I think it was at least a full day.)

You may be thinking of this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1027.html), where the order have no idea if Durkon has a meaningful headstart or not.

I am happy to discuss other methods of voiding Hel's/Durkon's plan that do not involve the death of the dwarven race - if others want to share.

[Hopeless]

What's stopping those idiots from just teleporting their worshippers to a pocket dimension mirroring their dwarven kingdom.

Secretly move them to said dimension, destroy world... rebuild world and when ready return them completely unaware anything has happened so they don't die a dishonourable death, Hel doesn't gain a thing!

Seriously Hel would have done better to offer the gods a way out so she could gain followers from any of the races after all if she gets to claim anyone who dies a dishonourable death you know like Miko... now that would give her a substantial boost to her portfolio and improve her status in the various pantheons...

Yes destroying the world would benefit her, but why limit herself to just dwarves....:smallconfused:

[Kish]

I think "part of one pantheon can create a replica of the world at will, with the active opposition of at least one member" gives the gods an actively counter-textual level of omnipotence.

If by "unaware anything has happened" you mean "until they realize every non-dwarf was killed" with a side of "the ones who were away from the dwarven kingdoms and suddenly get transported to a place that looks like the dwarven kingdoms will know something has happened right away"...it's not actively counter-textual but it's still not supported, either.

Hel, wisely in my view, wants the bet ended entirely, not expanded to include non-Thor worshipers. Most of the Northern Pantheon would probably also balk at seeing faithful but unlucky worshipers go to Hel (or at having to indoctrinate everyone in "trees are dangerous, it's totally an honorable death to die flipping out on one").

[Ruck]

You may be thinking of this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1027.html), where the order have no idea if Durkon has a meaningful headstart or not.
Found it; Roy says it in the first panel of #1030.

[factotum]

What's stopping those idiots from just teleporting their worshippers to a pocket dimension mirroring their dwarven kingdom.

The main thing stopping them is that they have that agreement in place to only influence the internal affairs of the world via their clerics. Teleporting all the dwarves elsewhere would be a massive breaking of that agreement, which the Lawful gods won't want to do and the Chaotic ones will know will land them in deep, deep trouble if it's discovered (as it almost inevitably will be).

[dancrilis]

Found it; Roy says it in the first panel of #1030.

Cool - still the order has no idea if Durkon has a meaningful headstart or not (or where he is - while I suspect that he is where he is expected to be he could be somewhere else doing unrelated items while the order or on a wild goose chase).

[Fish]

The most likely way to screw up Hel's plan is to let the Dark One use the Snarl to murder the gods. There might be other solutions, but this is one we know of.

[Kantaki]

I wonder if a sticky thread titled, "No, the dwarves will not kill themselves! Stop asking!" would do any good.

Unfortunatly that seems highly doubtful.
I wouldn't be surprised if someone brings up this "solution" again when we have reached the final battle the comic has been finished for years. Wouldn't be the first "theory" that keeps raising from the grave.

[Goblin_Priest]

The most likely way to screw up Hel's plan is to let the Dark One use the Snarl to murder the gods. There might be other solutions, but this is one we know of.

Ooooh, will the Dark One summon the Snarl on Hel? :smallamused:

[Thrillhouse]

Um...how exactly are they honourable deaths? The dwarves are just being told why they're going to die. They aren't sacrificing themselves. They're just being sacrificed. Putting aside all the other problems with this I don't see these count as "honourable" especially since the dwarves themselves seem to define it as dying "in battle" or saving someone.

[Gift Jeraff]

Other ways to foil Hel's plan:
-Belkar dies and casts a vote as the sexy shoeless god of war
-Elan goes to the Godsmoot as the High Priest of Banjo

[Ruck]

Cool - still the order has no idea if Durkon has a meaningful headstart or not (or where he is - while I suspect that he is where he is expected to be he could be somewhere else doing unrelated items while the order or on a wild goose chase).

Since the vampire can access all of Durkon's memories and knowledge, he can surely get close to his destination with a teleport spell. Even if he doesn't exactly know he has to get to Firmament instead of the normal Parliament, he'll still be starting from much closer than the Order is.

There's absolutely no reason on Earth to believe the vampire would use a one-time teleport orb to "do unrelated items." And it's not a "wild goose chase" if Roy wins by getting there first whether or not the vampire isn't there.


Other ways to foil Hel's plan:
-Belkar dies and casts a vote as the sexy shoeless god of war
-Elan goes to the Godsmoot as the High Priest of Banjo

If only the Priest of Freya hadn't taken it upon himself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html) to turn down Banjo.

[Domino Quartz]

If only the Priest of Freya hadn't taken it upon himself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html) to turn down Banjo.

http://i.imgur.com/3Gpey.jpg

[Ruck]

Thank you for your insight.

[Peelee]

Other ways to foil Hel's plan:
-Belkar dies and casts a vote as the sexy shoeless god of war
-Elan goes to the Godsmoot as the High Priest of Banjo

You're my favorite.

[ti'esar]

The best way to screw over Hel's plan without the Order doing anything would be for the gods to contact Rich Burlew and convince him to get out of the comic-making business and use the Kickstarter money to retire to the Caribbean.

[Kish]

But if they did that, they'd find out that Hel secretly offered Rich extra money if he'd draw a final comic two panels long: One with the world being destroyed by the gods, one with Hel shouting "I win!"

Guess they have to rely on that random, unimportant group of adventurers whose names I can't think of after all. Poor gods. :smallfrown:

[martianmister]

How about killing one of evil priests of evil gods that voted yes, instead of murdering all these extra people?

[factotum]

How about killing one of evil priests of evil gods that voted yes, instead of murdering all these extra people?

You would have to kill *all* the priests of the god--as Durkula showed, when one high priest dies another can take their place easily.

[Hopeless]

Made me wonder why they didn't just stall them so Durkula's new servants regain their spells and use them to demolish the Godsmoot with all of those high priests inside?

That link allowing them to communicate from wherever they are might be easy enough to backtrack and conveniently wipe all of them out in the same attack that takes out the Godsmoot, I recall V lost her soul shards and I bet at least one of them might be willing to help Hel out in return for joining her faith perhaps?

[Kish]

"I don't get why Hel didn't god-mode to her victory" makes a refreshing change from "I don't get why Hel's enemies don't god-mode to her defeat," if nothing else.

[NerdyKris]

How about killing one of evil priests of evil gods that voted yes, instead of murdering all these extra people?

First of all, the vote wasn't split good/evil. Some good gods voted yes and some evil voted no. Second, we saw exactly what happens in the strip itself. Any attack on any other participant would result in all of the priests attacking eachother. You'd be equally likely to lose someone who voted for your side.

[Kish]

I think, actually, if someone--anyone--attacked a sitting High Priest without being that priest's bodyguard, one of three things would happen.
1) A ward put on the Godsmoot would vaporize the attacker or attackers.
2) All the other High Priests would attack the attacker in concert, without regard for which side they'd been on, and not stop until the attacker or attackers was/were destroyed.
3) Neither of the above would happen. The High Priest in question would be overwhelmed and killed by the attacker or attackers. Then the Godsmoot would need to be started over (when a new high priest was appointed and somehow the attacker had been removed from the Godsmoot, either destroyed or being pursued by bounty hunters until the end of their days) because someone had broken one of the explicit, stated rules of the Godsmoot, which mysteriously never seem to say what any of the "why didn't they...?" people want them to say.

Consider this a response to both "Why don't they kill the High Priest of Fenrir?" and "Why didn't Greg have his minions kill all the No-voting high priests?"

[Hopeless]

So once Durkula declared himself so he could vote the fact he had already vampirised the only neutral party functioning as aides at the Godsmoot wouldn't matter but if they dispelled the Godsmoot building it would still count as violating the treaty?

[NerdyKris]

The building is just decoration. I don't think the gods are going to consider "removing the building" as negating votes or violating anything.

For starters, we see Durkon crush the balcony without any repercussions.

[Kish]

I believe Hopeless is trying to imply that they would collapse the building, crushing all the high priests (100% chance of no survivors not even asserted, just assumed...), and, somehow, expect to get away with, "What? That totally wasn't an attack on the high priests!"

[Darth Paul]

A religiously-motivated group commits mass suicide and takes countless other people with them.



What you're missing is how honorable it is, obviously. It's honorable religiously-motivated mass suicide that takes countless other people with them.

{scrubbed}


I wonder if a sticky thread titled, "No, the dwarves will not kill themselves! Stop asking!" would do any good.

Along with some titled "Elan will NOT sacrifice himself so everyone else can have a happy ending..." and "Yes, Redcloak IS Evil..." and maybe one titled "Belkar is still Chaotic Evil."

[Gift Jeraff]

Other ways to foil Hel's plan:
-Belkar dies and casts a vote as the sexy shoeless god of war
-Elan goes to the Godsmoot as the High Priest of Banjo

You forgot Roy can kill the new High Priestess of Hel.

[dancrilis]

You forgot Roy can kill the new High Priestess of Hel.

Well done - rarely see someone talking about themselves in the second person.

[factotum]

You forgot Roy can kill the new High Priestess of Hel.

No, he can't, because he's not the bodyguard of the new High Priestess and thus would be breaking the Godsmoot rules if he lifted a finger against her...and whatever his strengths, Roy isn't going to survive against an assault by dozens of the highest level clerics in the North.

[Peelee]

No, he can't, because he's not the bodyguard of the new High Priestess and thus would be breaking the Godsmoot rules if he lifted a finger against her...and whatever his strengths, Roy isn't going to survive against an assault by dozens of the highest level clerics in the North.

Note the implied insincerity of his previous solutions in conjunction with this one.

[hroþila]

You forgot Roy can kill the new High Priestess of Hel.
And that Redcloak can still pop up to cast the Dark One's vote.

[Monday]

You forgot Roy can kill the new High Priestess of Hel.

And Wrekan could kill Veldrina.

[dancrilis]

And Wrekan could kill Veldrina.

This seems disrespectful.

But I shall answer it as of it is from a position of ignorance rather than intentionally hostile.

Veldrina delieved the vote of the western pantanon - her death does nothing to invalidate that vote.

[Monday]

This seems disrespectful.

But I shall answer it as of it is from a position of ignorance rather than intentionally hostile.

Veldrina delieved the vote of the western pantanon - her death does nothing to invalidate that vote.

Are we not doing the sarcasm thing still? Was I too late for that? My bad. Just trying to continue the theme of overused potential plans.

[Kish]

I think you got it and dancrilis didn't.

[Gift Jeraff]

It's also possible the world just ends and that fulfills Elan's happy ending.

[Kish]

Clearly, Odin just needs to declare that every dwarven death as part of the gods destroying the world is a noble sacrifice.

[Jasdoif]

Clearly, Odin just needs to declare that every dwarven death as part of the gods destroying the world is a noble sacrifice.Doesn't that let Hel declare that every dwarven death that wasn't part of the gods destroying the world was dishonorable, though? My "Uh-Huh vs Nuh-Uh Bylaws" knowledge is pretty rusty.

[Kish]

Well anyway, Hel's entire scheme is clearly invalid because she placed her high priest in Durkon's body rather than letting him be a truly free-willed vampire.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well anyway, Hel's entire scheme is clearly invalid because she placed her high priest in Durkon's body rather than letting him be a truly free-willed vampire.

Ah, if only this was a legitimate time for me to plug my signature.

[137beth]

"I don't get why Hel didn't god-mode to her victory" makes a refreshing change from "I don't get why Hel's enemies don't god-mode to her defeat," if nothing else.

Ooh, ooh! Why doesn't the Dark One just arbitrarily declare that all deceased dwarves are automatically reincarnated as goblins, who then immediately die again as the world is destroyed, giving TDO the most power in the creation of World 3?