Does 20 cha really make sense if you have 7 wis and 7 int?

[Zhentarim]

It seems like this would be unlikely in real life. Cha and Wis seem like two sides of the same coin, anyway.

[Malroth]

You've never met a salesman, politician, religious leader or buisnes exec have you?

[Herabec]

Hodor.

A character with arguably low scores in Wisdom and Intelligence, but gods is he loved by millions of people.

That's charisma, baby!

[Zhentarim]

You've never met a salesman, politician, religious leader or buisnes exec have you?

those have low int, but do they also have low wisdom? It would seem you would have to respond to facial cues (wis) to pump cha up that high.

[The Insanity]

Why wouldn't it? All 3 stats are about different things.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

The stats are probably mildly related in real life. But in a game I'd allow anything.

Marilyn Monroe (according to legend, and I'll stick with the legendary version for gossip from that long ago) was apparently very hard to work with to the point of being childish and she killed herself in some fit of depression after some hot shot director who's name is already unimportant enough to be forgotten even in the context of this story told her she'd never work in this town again. But she was still Marilyn Monroe.

As Einstein supposedly said: but what if she had your Int and my Cha?

EDIT: And I'm going to catch an enormous amount of flak for this, but at least the public persona Donald Trump has build for himself during this election works this way as well. He thinks the president might secretly be a terrorist, despite undoudbtedly having been background checked by every single intelligence agency under his command and not bringing down the country in the last 8 years of having full power. He figures hair spray used indoors can't possibly affect the ozone layer, so I suppose he also can't figure out why he is able to breath indoors. Wisdom wise he figures acting as your own publicist to brag about how many women want sex with you is an acceptable thing to do when you're 45 years old, except maybe if you get caught. I know the man is bound to be at least a bit smarter than that and just uses this as a tactic, but it's still a pretty convincing example.

[Hal0Badger]

Not much, but still possible I guess

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/e/e6/Luffy_Wax.png/revision/20130714224604

[digiman619]

The Ditz: Very pretty (i.e., high CHA), but dumb (low INT) and naive (low WIS)

[Novawurmson]

Eh, I've met people like that. Easily swayed in their opinion, not particularly perceptive (low Wis), poor decision making, slow learners (low Int), but passionate and persuasive (high Cha).

I think celebrities are a good comparison. They can act in a movie in a way that brings you to tears or play a song that resonates within you in a way you never thought could, but then you read an interview with them and it turns out that they subscribe to some bizarre, hokey health fad and belong to a cult.

I hate to give examples because I don't want to tread on any toes, but maybe Kanye West? I like his music, and I think a good bit of his public persona is performance art, but...that persona occasionally makes him look a little loopy.

[Âmesang]

I think it might almost be worse having a charismatic character with a high intelligence and low wisdom, since I imagine such a character as being utterly convinced that any plan they come up with will be the most scathingly-brilliant idea, without having the wisdom to step back and see things through in the "big picture," to understand the consequences of the actions.

…doubly so if the character is villainous, but then which would be worse: not being aware of the consequences or being aware and just not caring?

(I find it amusing when the character's a prestiged spellcaster since they're still likely to have a solid Will save, so you could still have someone who's unaware outside their own personal space and is completely self-absorbed and yet possesses an unshakable, iron will.)

[AslanCross]

There is a new Pixar movie about a certain fish...

[Syll]

Another example I would mention would be Danton, from Django Wexler's Shadow Throne series. He would definitely qualify as low Int and Wis, but when he is speaking publicly, or trying to persuade others, he is extremely talented

Actually, In the hands of the right player, a character like him could be a lot of fun. He's been bound to a demon that symbiotically lives inside him which provides him his supernatural talent of persuasion, and enthralling crowds. Of course it could also be adapted for any other ability score that seems incongruous.

[Faily]

High Charisma, but low Wis and (sometimes) low Int? One person I play with almost always goes that route. :smalltongue:

Though in a way, dumping Wisdom sometimes seems fitting for an adventurer, considering that adventurers leave behind common sense often (the sense that tells you this is dangerous and you should go home), and instead gain adventure sense (which is the sense that tells you "there be treasure and xp this way!"). :smallwink:

[GrayDeath]

If one counts the appearance and general "draw" of a persons body/etc as main reason, lots and lots of stars and starlets fit the bill.

[Kelvarius]

I think it's worth pointing out that, fluffwise, scores of 7 in Wis and Int are not all that terrible when you realize that the 8-10 range is considered human average. Obviously in the metagame knowledge that stats can get ridiculously high in the 30s, 405, 50s, etc, a 7 is abysmally low, but when you take that into consideration, it doesn't seem so unrealistic.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

10-11 was average right? And 3 is the minimum for being sentient.

[Hiro Quester]

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/oots/images/1/1f/Elan_New.png

[Eldariel]

High Charisma, but low Wis and (sometimes) low Int? One person I play with almost always goes that route. :smalltongue:

Though in a way, dumping Wisdom sometimes seems fitting for an adventurer, considering that adventurers leave behind common sense often (the sense that tells you this is dangerous and you should go home), and instead gain adventure sense (which is the sense that tells you "there be treasure and xp this way!"). :smallwink:

Hey, just knowing something is potentially fatal doesn't necessarily mean you won't do it anyways. Perhaps personal survival is just not very high on one's list of priorities thus making dungeondelving an extremely sane option :smalltongue: It may be a risk but the reward is also huge; most people only dream of the riches even one successful dungeon provides. And since we're playing in a world with ascertained afterlife, a short trip by this mortal coil doesn't even sound all that bad. Plus you can always be revived. All these considerations leave me to believe a D&D adventurer wouldn't have nearly as much a reason to be worried about risking their lives (or worse) as humans in this age and time.

[Sliver]

A lot of anime protagonists are morons with a heart of gold that get others to bet everything on them simply because of how strong their FRIENDSHIP POWER is. Naruto is hardly smart or wise, but he BELIEVES IT so hard that nobody can deny him.

[nedz]

Eh, I've met people like that. Easily swayed in their opinion, not particularly perceptive (low Wis), poor decision making, slow learners (low Int), but passionate and persuasive (high Cha).

Sounds like King Charles I - turned out he didn't have a head for politics.

[Esprit15]

Yeah. High CHA, low INT/WIS is that guy that everyone likes because they're fun, not because they're clever or even have that good judgement. They'd be great at parties, but you'll also probably be driving them home after, or possibly out of the ER because of something that seemed like a good idea at the time to them, without even needing to be intoxicated.

[Zhentarim]

I'm considering making a halfling bones oracle for a sandbox game with these stats:
5 str (he's pretty wimpy)
18 dex (he's light on his feet)
16 con (he can take a few hits)
7 int (he has had no formal education)
7 wis (he is a little foolish)
20 cha (he is used to getting his way)

[Darth Ultron]

I'd dare say you can find a couple dozen celebrities that fit....

At 7 Int/Wis a person is just ''not smart or wise'', but they can still be likeable.

Forrest Gump might be the best fictional example.

[Seppo87]

Khal Drogo from GOT may fit.

Zapp Brannigan from Futurama fits.

Rei (from Urusei Yatsura) fits.

Usagi from Sailor Moon somewhat fits.

Cavendish from One Piece fits.

[Herabec]

Khal Drogo may fit

Khal Drogo seemed very intelligent to me, actually. He just didn't seem to know much outside of the Dothraki.

[Porthos]

This is one way I personally like to look at things:

INT: Book Smarts
WIS: Street Smarts
CHR: People Smarts

Is it perfect? No, so objections taken read in advance. :smalltongue: But the three stats reflect different things. One of the things CHR reflects is how well you interact with people and how much people are inclined to like you all things being equal.

A low INT/low WIS/high CHR simply reflects someone that isn't very smart and is kinda foolish, but is lovable anyway. Said person has that je ne sais quoi that makes someone like them even if it isn't for traditional reasons.

[Seppo87]

Khal Drogo seemed very intelligent to me, actually. He just didn't seem to know much outside of the Dothraki.

When? I may be misremembering here, a lot of time has passed from first season.
I remember him as a very cool and strong willed simpleton.

[P.F.]

From the section on role-playing ability scores from the PHB3.5:


A character with high Charisma but low Intelligence can usually pass herself off as knowledgeable, until she meets a true expert. A charismatic character with low Wisdom may be popular, but she doesn't know who her real friends are. A charismatic character lacking both Intelligence and Wisdom is likely to be shallow and unaware of others' feelings.

So, this character would probably be well-spoken and persuasive, maybe manipulative, surrounded by social parasites, and completely oblivious to the consequences of their actions.

[Psyren]

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/oots/images/1/1f/Elan_New.png

Yep; canonically has crazy-high Cha and low scores in the other two, while being roleplayed accordingly (simple/naive and trusting.) /thread

[Pex]

Hodor.

A character with arguably low scores in Wisdom and Intelligence, but gods is he loved by millions of people.

That's charisma, baby!

Wins thread.

The high charisma low intelligence and wisdom person is the lovable fool, the dumb jock, the bodacious babe, the sweetest person ever who's taken advantage of.

[Zhentarim]

Wins thread.

The high charisma low intelligence and wisdom person is the lovable fool, the dumb jock, the bodacious babe, the sweetest person ever who's taken advantage of.

Why is intimidation cha based and not wis based? Intimidation seems completely opposite from diplomacy. As in, I actually do fairly well on diplomacy, as I have a broad enough knowledge base to speak about any topic with anybody and have a few comments about it, and perhaps I can work in a little diplomacy in a round-a-bout way after I've softened somebody up with small talk a few minutes. As long as I'm a sweet guy, I usually get what I want out of people. Intimidation, on the other hand, has only ever backfired on me.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Why is intimidation cha based and not wis based? Intimidation seems completely opposite from diplomacy. As in, I actually do fairly well on diplomacy, as I have a broad enough knowledge base to speak about any topic with anybody and have a few comments about it, and perhaps I can work in a little diplomacy in a round-a-bout way after I've softened somebody up with small talk a few minutes. As long as I'm a sweet guy, I usually get what I want out of people. Intimidation, on the other hand, has only ever backfired on me.

Perhaps you have a normal to above average Charisma but have not put any skill points into Intimidate.

[Kurald Galain]

Why is intimidation cha based and not wis based?

Because intimidation is about convincing people.

[animewatcha]

What about the stereotypical cheerleader?

[Zhentarim]

Perhaps you have a normal to above average Charisma but have not put any skill points into Intimidate.

Diplomacy, bluff, and knowledge skills are class skills for me. Intimidate, profession, perception, and sense motive would be weak points. For all those years of making the dean's list, making straight A's, writing books, competing in national science competitions, and acting--common sense and noticing what's directly in front of me have always been weak points. Despite not feeling too special in the brains department, I've always had to lean back on my academic achievements to convince people I'm not stupid when it comes to everything.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

If anything, intimidation is more about charisma than diplomacy. There are no arguments, no being knowledgeable on topics, it's just about how you present yourself.

Sure, in real life the two benefit from different physical characteristics, some people need less charisma and skill to be able to intimidate people, and those are not always the same people who need less charisma and skill to persuade people through talking. It can definitely overlap as well, just imagine a military officer. I personally don't think that the stat needs to be split into scary charisma and non-scary charisma, so let's just keep that little error in.

Besides, I bet most of the examples so far would be pretty good at intimidating. Especially Elan. :smalleek:

[Psyren]

Besides, I bet most of the examples so far would be pretty good at intimidating. Especially Elan. :smalleek:

He certainly is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html)

[Seerow]

I think it might almost be worse having a charismatic character with a high intelligence and low wisdom, since I imagine such a character as being utterly convinced that any plan they come up with will be the most scathingly-brilliant idea, without having the wisdom to step back and see things through in the "big picture," to understand the consequences of the actions.

…doubly so if the character is villainous, but then which would be worse: not being aware of the consequences or being aware and just not caring?

(I find it amusing when the character's a prestiged spellcaster since they're still likely to have a solid Will save, so you could still have someone who's unaware outside their own personal space and is completely self-absorbed and yet possesses an unshakable, iron will.)

This is literally a description of the main character of (and why everything happens in) the Kingkiller Chronicles.

[Florian]

Why is intimidation cha based and not wis based? Intimidation seems completely opposite from diplomacy. As in, I actually do fairly well on diplomacy, as I have a broad enough knowledge base to speak about any topic with anybody and have a few comments about it, and perhaps I can work in a little diplomacy in a round-a-bout way after I've softened somebody up with small talk a few minutes. As long as I'm a sweet guy, I usually get what I want out of people. Intimidation, on the other hand, has only ever backfired on me.

PF has an interesting take on Intimidate. It´s quick Diplomacy with drawbacks. You pretty much overcome your targets resistance by being sheer overpowering. Later on, the same target will realize that and be pretty miffed at you, but you´ve reached your goal by then.
So it´s _the_ social skill for conman, telemarketers, jocks and anyone who wants to play Eddy Murphy.

[Sun Elemental]

INT: Book Smarts
WIS: Street Smarts
CHR: People Smarts


I know you said this was a huge simplification, but I still wanna talk about it because I was thinking about it when I was bored at work. Street Smarts is preeetty good, but I'd call it Empathy.

Consider: Wisdom is a Cleric and Monk stat, it powers skills that are based on senses, and it powers the save that works against illusions, enchantments, curses, insanity/confusion, and being plane-shifted. How are all of these related?

Clerics already have empathy with their god, a major part of the universe. Pretty easy to empathize with mortals.

Monks focus on ridding themselves of negative emotions, jealousy, anger, etc. Better empathy with people. It also works because of all the Buddhist undertones to D&D monks, and one possible definition of enlightenment would be having supreme empathy for the rest of the universe.

Listen/Spot/Perception are a measure of you empathizing so hard with the universe, you see through it farther than other people.

Illusions and Enchantments are you empathizing with the caster, making yourself think like them so their spell doesn't affect you. After all, offensive spells never target the caster, and casters auto-disbelieve their own illusions.

Similarly, curses and insanity are you becoming more like your attacker. If you empathize with Cthulhu, you become slightly more like him, and Cthulhu can't make Cthulhu insane.

[GreyBlack]

It seems like this would be unlikely in real life. Cha and Wis seem like two sides of the same coin, anyway.

Do you not remember high school at all?

[Florian]

@Sun Elemental:

WIS - I´d rather say it´s the ability to reflect on things, to filter out the noise, not to emphasize with anything. Attentiveness as part of focus and clarity.

Clerics and Monks need a high level of it to get fully in touch with the outside forces they gain their power from.

In contrast, CHA-based casters would need pure force of personality to make things happen.

[GrayDeath]

This is literally a description of the main character of (and why everything happens in) the Kingkiller Chronicles.


Well, K(Q)uot(h)e certainly has a Wis of at most say ... 5, he is not only hugely charismatic but also immensly intelligent.
Probably had to take FLaws like "doesnt understand Women" and "makes stupid promises" to boot to get them that high (and for his 4 instances of Iron Will^^).

So yes, I agree.



And damn it, wheres Book three already!?

[Pex]

Why is intimidation cha based and not wis based? Intimidation seems completely opposite from diplomacy. As in, I actually do fairly well on diplomacy, as I have a broad enough knowledge base to speak about any topic with anybody and have a few comments about it, and perhaps I can work in a little diplomacy in a round-a-bout way after I've softened somebody up with small talk a few minutes. As long as I'm a sweet guy, I usually get what I want out of people. Intimidation, on the other hand, has only ever backfired on me.

The fake Mandarin of Iron Man III
The Wizard of Oz

An intimidation-based high charisma, low intelligence and wisdom character is a Faker. Perhaps also utilizing Bluff, he convinces others he's more powerful than he really is. He lets his reputation precede him so he doesn't have to do anything because he doesn't know how to do anything.

[shawshank]

The perfect example of 20 cha with 7 int and wis would be Michael Kelso from "that 70's show". Says stupid things all the time, misunderstands half of what is happening around him, but you can not stop watching because he is so lovably oblivious.