Guilty over dead PCs

[AvatarVecna]

So, my IRL group does a "take turns DMing" kind of thing, because we sometimes have attendance problems; last time we met, I ended up running. It was a basic plot that I've run before in various editions (a gang has taken up shop in town, drive them out); due to the make-up of our group, they went in a "social manipulation" direction, attempting to get the town guard pissed off enough to ignore the gang's bribery, setting up the local community and business owners, and attempting to partner with other adventuring groups to try and take on this organization. It's all going well, and is building to a (hopefully) thrilling confrontation at the gang's hideout, which would normally be extremely tough for the PCs to take on. Our 6th lvl party (at least while I'm DMing and my character is elsewhere) consisted of the following:
LG Dwarven War Cleric with hammer, full plate, and shield, serving as tank and healer (and buffer on occasion)
NE Gnomish Illusionist with healthy dabbling in Evocation and Necromancy
N (LN?) Champion Fighter with a preference for solving problems with his spear
C"N" Moon Druid raised by wolves who's convinced she is one
CN Halfling Beastmaster who rides a velociraptor
NG Kalashtar Transmuter who doubles as the group face

Now, while the illusionist and the warpriest went around investigating local businesses to see who could be tricked into publicly opposing the gang, and the fighter and kalashtar went barhopping to find murderhobos in need of money, our own group's murderhobos (the druid and ranger) went off to find an explosives store (it's Eberron, so I figured there's probably one around Stormreach somewhere). Before mentioning what happens, I should tell you about these two characters. The halfling is played as a devil-may-care live-life-to-the-fullest kind of adventurer; previously, he's gotten himself blackout drunken on some several thousand year old giant booze found while looting some old giant ruins, and while he's not the kind of person who would use pages of the Necronomicon to make a joint, I'm fairly certain he's the kind of person who would smoke it if offered, because why not? More problematic, though, is the druid. You may have noticed that her alignment has the Neutral part in quotations, and that's because she's that kind of chaotic neutral: her character is convinced that she's a wild animal that can turn into a human, and she attempts to use bloodshed and fire to solve all her problems; this is a player who has to be reminded at least once per game session that no, there are no rules for the effects of ripping off people's arms, and no, we haven't made any houserules for that either; this is a druid who had to be talked out of starting a forest fire while standing in the middle of the forest.

So when the player announces that she's seeking out an explosives store, I immediately made two notes for myself: firstly, the shopkeeper, as appropriate for somebody who sells dangerous weapons to people of questionable sanity, is himself a retired adventurer who's plenty capable of taking part in the fight I'm sure is inevitable, and secondly, if any explosives go off in the shop, they'll trigger the other explosives for a huge explosions equal to...let's say a Meteor Swarm DC 19. The negotiation over explosives goes about as well as it can, and they end up purchasing things...and it occurs to the druid that if this guy sells explosives for so much, he's probably got a lot of money here in the shop, so she decides to rob the place; the halfling at this point is just along for the ride, I suppose. The druid player, showing a level of situational awareness I'm ashamed to say I didn't think her capable of, decides to hold the shop up with cold magic, rather than her usual "fire/electricity" spells, threatening the shopkeep with surprise round and readying a spell.

First round comes, and the ranger wins initiative; he takes one of the grenade-like explosives they just purchased, triggers it, and then throws it at the shopkeeper's feet. The druid, once more displaying a level of common sense I didn't previously believe her capable of, turns into a cheetah and runs away like a bat out of hell...unfortunately only getting so far due to obstructions. The shopkeep attempts to stomp the explosive out, but it fails...and the place goes up. The ranger didn't try to run; afterward, the player said he figured they wouldn't keep tons of working explosives just out in the open, so that might be on me. The ranger failed his save and basically got disintegrated by the blast, and the shopkeeper survived due to both making the save and having quite the impressive pile of hit points. The druid, in her retreat, had made it to the edge of where the effect would be, so I figured she had 3/4 cover (since the explosion was inside) and advantage on the save, and she ended up making it...but the damage roll was high enough that it took her down to dying anyway...and then she flubbed the death saves before stabilizing.

I feel some of the assumptions I made (the skopkeeper being more capable than most NPCs, a huge explosion if explosives are used in the explosives shop) were solid, but some (making it a Meteor Swarm, not letting the druid ignore the effect even though she got pretty far away, having live explosives in the explosives shop on display) were less solid. Should I have done things differently?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Fake explosives on the shelves would feel like you're going for a parody on modern life to me. Real ones feels much better.

I think it went pretty well, they learned to think about what they do a bit more. And the druid was killed by the dice more than by you.

What I don't get is why buy stuff if you're going to rob them anyway?

[AvatarVecna]

Fake explosives on the shelves would feel like you're going for a parody on modern life to me. Real ones feels much better.

I think it went pretty well, they learned to think about what they do a bit more. And the druid was killed by the dice more than by you.

What I don't get is why buy stuff if you're going to rob them anyway?

Well, I didn't tell tgem what the range was, and she was close to the edge, so I could've flubbed it and said she was outside. Wouldn't even be super unreasonable.

As for the change of heart, it' worth mentioning the the druid players is like 14/15 years old; my understanding based on observations at the time is that it didn't occur to her to rob him until after she's made her purchases.

[Temperjoke]

I wouldn't worry about the druid dying despite being away from the main blast. The shockwave from such an explosion would be absolutely devastating to everything in a mile radius, even with full cover it probably would have liquefied her insides to jelly, including the bones. This is fully on them for their actions. I mean, the ranger didn't think they would keep explosives out in the open, what was he just handed that he decided to use right away? They gave in to their impulses and paid the price for it. Maybe their next characters won't give in to their impulses like that.

[RickAllison]

Well, I didn't tell tgem what the range was, and she was close to the edge, so I could've flubbed it and said she was outside. Wouldn't even be super unreasonable.

As for the change of heart, it' worth mentioning the the druid players is like 14/15 years old; my understanding based on observations at the time is that it didn't occur to her to rob him until after she's made her purchases.

My opinion: let the girl die. It is an eye-opening experience to see how the whims of fate can impact the PC.

Now, if the party seeks to find their old allies, you could pull off a trip to the Feywild to find their friend, maybe stopping off wherever the ranger is. Otherwise, move on.

[Xetheral]

I wouldn't worry about the druid dying despite being away from the main blast. The shockwave from such an explosion would be absolutely devastating to everything in a mile radius, even with full cover it probably would have liquefied her insides to jelly, including the bones. This is fully on them for their actions. I mean, the ranger didn't think they would keep explosives out in the open, what was he just handed that he decided to use right away? They gave in to their impulses and paid the price for it. Maybe their next characters won't give in to their impulses like that.

A one-mile radius of severe structural damage from a shockwave requires a 10 kt explosion. That's 20,000,000 lbs of TNT-equivalent. A store selling explosives isn't going to have anywhere close to that much.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

They threw an explosive into a store FULL of explosives. I think this one is entirely on them.

While a store that keeps explosives out on shelves is a little odd, it's not THAT much different from an offensive-use themed fireworks store. Would you smoke in one of those? I hope not.

[Hrugner]

No that's about the end result I'd expect in this scenario. Even without the shop keep being powerful enough to survive the blast, you still have a room full of explosives and your ranger throwing a bomb in. I suppose the bomb maker could have been able to disable the grenade with no problem, but that's the only change I could have seen happening there.

That's probably the last time they try to rob a merchant.

[RyumaruMG]

They threw an explosive into a store FULL of explosives. I think this one is entirely on them.

I'm inclined to agree - if a player wants to do something with fairly obvious consequences, then they suffer the consequences. While said player is only 14/15, it's something they're going to learn eventually anyway. Better to learn it now, I think.

[Slipperychicken]

So your players threw a grenade into a room full of explosives they were standing in? That's a textbook example of something they should die from. You should not feel any guilt over this.


I might have made a few adjustments to the store

-The owner, as a retired adventurer possessing experience with both explosives and crazy people, and having a few brain cells of his own to rub together, doesn't keep his wares piled up and live in the store where crazy people might steal or detonate them. He has a handful of defused explosives (or even fake ones) for display purposes, inside a glass display case or high on a wall, but the dangerous stuff is in a basement or back-room with a very good lock and probably some enchantments on it. If someone tries to use one of the defused bombs, he puts on a disdainful glare and informs the would-be bomber that it's harmless.

-There is no legitimate "bomb-store". It's underground, and you need some serious connections or a good gather information check (i.e. persuasion) to get access to such a thing. If there was a legitimate way to get explosives, it would require either a license (and a good reason for having the license) or a bribe. A highly-unregulated area might have some dynamite available in a general store, or an unscrupulous merchant might keep some around, but you don't just casually walk into the bomb store to pick up some bombs.

-A place with that many bombs should have at least one guard besides the shopkeep. Probably a loan from a local gang or a contractor.

[Temperjoke]

A one-mile radius of severe structural damage from a shockwave requires a 10 kt explosion. That's 20,000,000 lbs of TNT-equivalent. A store selling explosives isn't going to have anywhere close to that much.

Fine, it's a mild exaggeration, the point is, even if she got out of the flame range, she would have still be hit with the shockwave, and at the distance she would have been able to get to, she still would have likely been jellied internally.

[Thrudd]

So, my IRL group does a "take turns DMing" kind of thing, because we sometimes have attendance problems; last time we met, I ended up running. It was a basic plot that I've run before in various editions (a gang has taken up shop in town, drive them out); due to the make-up of our group, they went in a "social manipulation" direction, attempting to get the town guard pissed off enough to ignore the gang's bribery, setting up the local community and business owners, and attempting to partner with other adventuring groups to try and take on this organization. It's all going well, and is building to a (hopefully) thrilling confrontation at the gang's hideout, which would normally be extremely tough for the PCs to take on. Our 6th lvl party (at least while I'm DMing and my character is elsewhere) consisted of the following:
LG Dwarven War Cleric with hammer, full plate, and shield, serving as tank and healer (and buffer on occasion)
NE Gnomish Illusionist with healthy dabbling in Evocation and Necromancy
N (LN?) Champion Fighter with a preference for solving problems with his spear
C"N" Moon Druid raised by wolves who's convinced she is one
CN Halfling Beastmaster who rides a velociraptor
NG Kalashtar Transmuter who doubles as the group face

Now, while the illusionist and the warpriest went around investigating local businesses to see who could be tricked into publicly opposing the gang, and the fighter and kalashtar went barhopping to find murderhobos in need of money, our own group's murderhobos (the druid and ranger) went off to find an explosives store (it's Eberron, so I figured there's probably one around Stormreach somewhere). Before mentioning what happens, I should tell you about these two characters. The halfling is played as a devil-may-care live-life-to-the-fullest kind of adventurer; previously, he's gotten himself blackout drunken on some several thousand year old giant booze found while looting some old giant ruins, and while he's not the kind of person who would use pages of the Necronomicon to make a joint, I'm fairly certain he's the kind of person who would smoke it if offered, because why not? More problematic, though, is the druid. You may have noticed that her alignment has the Neutral part in quotations, and that's because she's that kind of chaotic neutral: her character is convinced that she's a wild animal that can turn into a human, and she attempts to use bloodshed and fire to solve all her problems; this is a player who has to be reminded at least once per game session that no, there are no rules for the effects of ripping off people's arms, and no, we haven't made any houserules for that either; this is a druid who had to be talked out of starting a forest fire while standing in the middle of the forest.

So when the player announces that she's seeking out an explosives store, I immediately made two notes for myself: firstly, the shopkeeper, as appropriate for somebody who sells dangerous weapons to people of questionable sanity, is himself a retired adventurer who's plenty capable of taking part in the fight I'm sure is inevitable, and secondly, if any explosives go off in the shop, they'll trigger the other explosives for a huge explosions equal to...let's say a Meteor Swarm DC 19. The negotiation over explosives goes about as well as it can, and they end up purchasing things...and it occurs to the druid that if this guy sells explosives for so much, he's probably got a lot of money here in the shop, so she decides to rob the place; the halfling at this point is just along for the ride, I suppose. The druid player, showing a level of situational awareness I'm ashamed to say I didn't think her capable of, decides to hold the shop up with cold magic, rather than her usual "fire/electricity" spells, threatening the shopkeep with surprise round and readying a spell.

First round comes, and the ranger wins initiative; he takes one of the grenade-like explosives they just purchased, triggers it, and then throws it at the shopkeeper's feet. The druid, once more displaying a level of common sense I didn't previously believe her capable of, turns into a cheetah and runs away like a bat out of hell...unfortunately only getting so far due to obstructions. The shopkeep attempts to stomp the explosive out, but it fails...and the place goes up. The ranger didn't try to run; afterward, the player said he figured they wouldn't keep tons of working explosives just out in the open, so that might be on me. The ranger failed his save and basically got disintegrated by the blast, and the shopkeeper survived due to both making the save and having quite the impressive pile of hit points. The druid, in her retreat, had made it to the edge of where the effect would be, so I figured she had 3/4 cover (since the explosion was inside) and advantage on the save, and she ended up making it...but the damage roll was high enough that it took her down to dying anyway...and then she flubbed the death saves before stabilizing.

I feel some of the assumptions I made (the skopkeeper being more capable than most NPCs, a huge explosion if explosives are used in the explosives shop) were solid, but some (making it a Meteor Swarm, not letting the druid ignore the effect even though she got pretty far away, having live explosives in the explosives shop on display) were less solid. Should I have done things differently?

The first assumption you made was that there was an explosives shop to begin with. Where has anyone ever seen an explosives shop, other than 4th of July fireworks stands? Just because it's Eberron doesn't mean everything needs to be for sale like it's a video game. Especially not something as powerful as explosives (basically magic weapons not restricted by class, like a wand of fireballs or a spell scroll would be).

Is this a frontier mining town, where a general store has a small stock of dynamite for blasting rock? Otherwise, I would expect explosives to be possessed only by those who know how to craft them, and kept in secure places near where they would be used. For instance, under guard in a stockroom in a Dwarven mine. It could have/should have been an entire adventure in itself to find out who has or knows how to make explosives, tracking them down, getting to the place where they are kept or planning an ambush to intercept them on the way to the mine. And then either killing or haggling with Dwarves or Gnomes that possess them to buy some for exorbitant price or promising a favor of extreme value, like helping to fight off a bunch of goblins that are interrupting mining, all before they will give up any explosives.

Second mistake, after deciding that there was a shop, was having it manned by a lone shopkeeper. If he's that rich and selling things that dangerous, he'd have hired security. Guards at the door, everything locked in a vault, guards inside watching everyone who comes in. Because how easy would it be, otherwise, for someone to walk in there and set everything off, either by accident or on purpose? Holding up the shopkeeper with his own explosives should have triggered a fight against all the guards and the shopkeeper, and he at least would probably have a ring of fire protection or something similar. And even if they won the fight, the best they could do is get back the money they paid and maybe a little more, maybe get the magic ring, and probably burn the place.

Ignoring those things, getting killed was exactly what those characters deserved and you shouldn't feel bad about it. It would have happened to them eventually anyway.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The first assumption you made was that there was an explosives shop to begin with. Where has anyone ever seen an explosives shop, other than 4th of July fireworks stands? Just because it's Eberron doesn't mean everything needs to be for sale like it's a video game. Especially not something as powerful as explosives (basically magic weapons not restricted by class, like a wand of fireballs or a spell scroll would be).

Is this a frontier mining town, where a general store has a small stock of dynamite for blasting rock? Otherwise, I would expect explosives to be possessed only by those who know how to craft them, and kept in secure places near where they would be used. For instance, under guard in a stockroom in a Dwarven mine. It could have/should have been an entire adventure in itself to find out who has or knows how to make explosives, tracking them down, getting to the place where they are kept or planning an ambush to intercept them on the way to the mine. And then either killing or haggling with Dwarves or Gnomes that possess them to buy some for exorbitant price or promising a favor of extreme value, like helping to fight off a bunch of goblins that are interrupting mining, all before they will give up any explosives.

Second mistake, after deciding that there was a shop, was having it manned by a lone shopkeeper. If he's that rich and selling things that dangerous, he'd have hired security. Guards at the door, everything locked in a vault, guards inside watching everyone who comes in. Because how easy would it be, otherwise, for someone to walk in there and set everything off, either by accident or on purpose? Holding up the shopkeeper with his own explosives should have triggered a fight against all the guards and the shopkeeper, and he at least would probably have a ring of fire protection or something similar. And even if they won the fight, the best they could do is get back the money they paid and maybe a little more, maybe get the magic ring, and probably burn the place.

Ignoring those things, getting killed was exactly what those characters deserved and you shouldn't feel bad about it. It would have happened to them eventually anyway.

Note that I agree with the beginning of this -- it's not MUCH weirder than a fireworks store, as I said, but we have a VERY specific reason to sell fireworks, and you can't really find stores like this outside of highly specific times. It's an odd thing to make a living selling in a normal storefront.

[Dragolord]

The first assumption you made was that there was an explosives shop to begin with. Where has anyone ever seen an explosives shop, other than 4th of July fireworks stands? Just because it's Eberron doesn't mean everything needs to be for sale like it's a video game. Especially not something as powerful as explosives (basically magic weapons not restricted by class, like a wand of fireballs or a spell scroll would be).

This is Stormreach we're talking about.

[Xetheral]

Fine, it's a mild exaggeration, the point is, even if she got out of the flame range, she would have still be hit with the shockwave, and at the distance she would have been able to get to, she still would have likely been jellied internally.

Sure, where "mild exaggeration" is defined as 4-5 orders of magnitude. :)

As for at what ranges shockwaves are fatal, it's much more complicated than structural damage ranges. I would tend to think the explosion described in the OP (smallish industrial-scale?) would plausibly be fatal, but not certainly--the odds are increased by the short range, but decreased by the druid getting out of the confines of the building (which will significantly lower the pessure of the shockwave). Ultimately, though, the size of the explosion is narrative in nature, rather than mechanical, so "plausible" is the best result we're likely to get, and that range will be particulary broad.

[Regitnui]

This is Stormreach we're talking about.

Seconded. If "Indiana Jones" was a profession, Stormreach would be their one-stop shop. It had an entire book dedicated to it, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised at any of that. IMO, you're actually going to hard-pressed to find someone in Stormreach who isn't capable of kicking a PC through the door. The children in Stormreach have PC class levels!

Don't feel guilty. They deserved every minute of that experience. Though there is a resurrection altar in the Jorasco enclave, if they can find anything of the poor twits to resurrect them with.

[BurgerBeast]

Generally, I think it’s natural to feel guilt when a PC dies. You have to be hard. It’s like parenting or teaching. If you give them the easy way out, they wil never learn and you will lose credibility.

I think the should stay dead. The only thing I found strange was that the patron survived. If I was DMing, I wouldn’t care about RAW. You are standing in an explosion. You’re dead. It’s the same will falling in my campaings. I don’t care if, RAW, your character can survive a 200 foot fall. You’re dead. But I try to make this clear beforehand in the interest of fairness. And that’s my only other point. I don’t thin the onus is you, in this case, to explain the ramifications of their actions, but it never hurts. “Are you sure you want to throw that explosive into the shop? Because if it works, there’s going to be a huge explosion that destroys the shop, some of the surrounding buildings, and will probably kill you.”


As for the change of heart, it' worth mentioning the the druid players is like 14/15 years old; my understanding based on observations at the time is that it didn't occur to her to rob him until after she's made her purchases.

Get her to roll a new character. She’ll have forgotten about it in two or three sessions whern she’s immersed in her new character.


They threw an explosive into a store FULL of explosives. I think this one is entirely on them.

Basically this.

I would personally disregard all of the comments about “why is there an explosives store?” – it’s your world. If it makes sense to you, that’s good enough for me.

To the other comments about not making it secure enough: Well, if you live in a typical D&D world, it strikes me as hardly worthwhile to have manpower as security when there are magical means. It strikes me as even weirder to expect a shopkeep to make his shop “Crazy-proof” when the endeavour is futile anyway. No matter how “crazy-proof” the shop is, any caster can come in any time and torch any shop he or she wants. If a shopkeep is paranoid about crazies, then he’d probably not let any casters into his store ever.

[Dragolord]

Seconded. If "Indiana Jones" was a profession, Stormreach would be their one-stop shop. It had an entire book dedicated to it, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised at any of that. IMO, you're actually going to hard-pressed to find someone in Stormreach who isn't capable of kicking a PC through the door. The children in Stormreach have PC class levels!

Don't feel guilty. They deserved every minute of that experience. Though there is a resurrection altar in the Jorasco enclave, if they can find anything of the poor twits to resurrect them with.

And then, of course, there's that lovely little curse which makes people come back... different, in Stormreach. If they do end up being resurrected, all manner of lovely things could happen. You could even make a little plot hook out of it, if you're so inclined.

[Safety Sword]

In a world where explosives exist, there has be be an explosives store.

It's not like there is tight governmental regulation of such items in D&D, unless YOU want it to be like that in YOUR world!

On the other matter:
Stupid PCs did something stupid and are dead. Laugh and move on :smallamused:

[bid]

That's the stuff legends are made of. Roll a new character!

[Regitnui]

In a world where explosives exist, there has be be an explosives store.

It's not like there is tight governmental regulation of such items in D&D, unless YOU want it to be like that in YOUR world!

Stormreach doesn't even have any government regulation; one of the Storm Lords is a criminal, another is a fiend in disguise, and the rest are all known pirates. They don't care, as long as the taxes are paid and none of their interests were damaged.

[Sir cryosin]

Call me a **** but after this happen I would have all the guards in the city looking for the rest of the party. Because they were with them as a party. And who knows what the rest of the party has plain. The ruler must keep his city safe from people like that.

[Sir cryosin]

I am not malice or a killer DM butt I try to play to realism as closely as possible if somebody within a adventuring group blows up a store what the ruler of the city is going to rest the rest of the party whether they have anything to do with it or not it's kind of like guilty through a sociation. Now after the party has been captured and shows no up no further signs of aggression they will be given a chance to prove their innocence and then afterwards when their innocence has been proven that they have no connection to what their other party member dead then there'd be given their freedom back and allow them to carry on but the whole entire point of this it should show that it's a real living breathing world and that there are consequences to your actions and that there are rules to be abided by call me cold-hearted but I would not feel guilty about what happened it was their consequences that got them into that situation they did what they did and that was the result sorry

[Regitnui]

I'm not sure if that was a sentence, but this is Stormreach. There are 5 Storm Lords, and unless one of them had a stake in the explosives shop, they wouldn't care.

What you've got to watch out for are the militias. Some will just arrest you, like the Brelish or Cyrans. The Karrnathi or Aundairian militias are more likely to kill you if you're not one of their countrymen.

[Christian]

Call me a **** but after this happen I would have all the guards in the city looking for the rest of the party. Because they were with them as a party. And who knows what the rest of the party has plain. The ruler must keep his city safe from people like that.

I am not malice or a killer DM butt I try to play to realism as closely as possible if somebody within a adventuring group blows up a store what the ruler of the city is going to rest the rest of the party whether they have anything to do with it or not it's kind of like guilty through a sociation.

Brief update: the whole thing was implausible enough that we were able to convince all interested parties that this was a hit on the party by the gang we were tussling with, via some kind of dominate and with the intention of the messy public suicide sending us a 'back off' message. Yesterday's session was epic. :smallbiggrin:

[Laereth]

So, my IRL group does a "take turns DMing" kind of thing, because we sometimes have attendance problems; last time we met, I ended up running. It was a basic plot that I've run before in various editions (a gang has taken up shop in town, drive them out); due to the make-up of our group, they went in a "social manipulation" direction, attempting to get the town guard pissed off enough to ignore the gang's bribery, setting up the local community and business owners, and attempting to partner with other adventuring groups to try and take on this organization. It's all going well, and is building to a (hopefully) thrilling confrontation at the gang's hideout, which would normally be extremely tough for the PCs to take on. Our 6th lvl party (at least while I'm DMing and my character is elsewhere) consisted of the following:
LG Dwarven War Cleric with hammer, full plate, and shield, serving as tank and healer (and buffer on occasion)
NE Gnomish Illusionist with healthy dabbling in Evocation and Necromancy
N (LN?) Champion Fighter with a preference for solving problems with his spear
C"N" Moon Druid raised by wolves who's convinced she is one
CN Halfling Beastmaster who rides a velociraptor
NG Kalashtar Transmuter who doubles as the group face

Now, while the illusionist and the warpriest went around investigating local businesses to see who could be tricked into publicly opposing the gang, and the fighter and kalashtar went barhopping to find murderhobos in need of money, our own group's murderhobos (the druid and ranger) went off to find an explosives store (it's Eberron, so I figured there's probably one around Stormreach somewhere). Before mentioning what happens, I should tell you about these two characters. The halfling is played as a devil-may-care live-life-to-the-fullest kind of adventurer; previously, he's gotten himself blackout drunken on some several thousand year old giant booze found while looting some old giant ruins, and while he's not the kind of person who would use pages of the Necronomicon to make a joint, I'm fairly certain he's the kind of person who would smoke it if offered, because why not? More problematic, though, is the druid. You may have noticed that her alignment has the Neutral part in quotations, and that's because she's that kind of chaotic neutral: her character is convinced that she's a wild animal that can turn into a human, and she attempts to use bloodshed and fire to solve all her problems; this is a player who has to be reminded at least once per game session that no, there are no rules for the effects of ripping off people's arms, and no, we haven't made any houserules for that either; this is a druid who had to be talked out of starting a forest fire while standing in the middle of the forest.

So when the player announces that she's seeking out an explosives store, I immediately made two notes for myself: firstly, the shopkeeper, as appropriate for somebody who sells dangerous weapons to people of questionable sanity, is himself a retired adventurer who's plenty capable of taking part in the fight I'm sure is inevitable, and secondly, if any explosives go off in the shop, they'll trigger the other explosives for a huge explosions equal to...let's say a Meteor Swarm DC 19. The negotiation over explosives goes about as well as it can, and they end up purchasing things...and it occurs to the druid that if this guy sells explosives for so much, he's probably got a lot of money here in the shop, so she decides to rob the place; the halfling at this point is just along for the ride, I suppose. The druid player, showing a level of situational awareness I'm ashamed to say I didn't think her capable of, decides to hold the shop up with cold magic, rather than her usual "fire/electricity" spells, threatening the shopkeep with surprise round and readying a spell.

First round comes, and the ranger wins initiative; he takes one of the grenade-like explosives they just purchased, triggers it, and then throws it at the shopkeeper's feet. The druid, once more displaying a level of common sense I didn't previously believe her capable of, turns into a cheetah and runs away like a bat out of hell...unfortunately only getting so far due to obstructions. The shopkeep attempts to stomp the explosive out, but it fails...and the place goes up. The ranger didn't try to run; afterward, the player said he figured they wouldn't keep tons of working explosives just out in the open, so that might be on me. The ranger failed his save and basically got disintegrated by the blast, and the shopkeeper survived due to both making the save and having quite the impressive pile of hit points. The druid, in her retreat, had made it to the edge of where the effect would be, so I figured she had 3/4 cover (since the explosion was inside) and advantage on the save, and she ended up making it...but the damage roll was high enough that it took her down to dying anyway...and then she flubbed the death saves before stabilizing.

I feel some of the assumptions I made (the skopkeeper being more capable than most NPCs, a huge explosion if explosives are used in the explosives shop) were solid, but some (making it a Meteor Swarm, not letting the druid ignore the effect even though she got pretty far away, having live explosives in the explosives shop on display) were less solid. Should I have done things differently?

To me it feels rather fine. I wouldn't have let the shopkeeper live (just so the players don't feel cheated by an NPC with gigatons of HP). Other than that it seems fine.

[BrianDavion]

I see nothing wrong with the way things went down. even the NPC surviving I see nothing wrong with (if he's spending his busniess days surrounded by explosives, and he's wealthy, at the very least it's logical to assume he'd have some sort of magic item to allow him to survive in the event of an explosion.

definatly don't feel guilty about the druid's death. no one made her decide to hold up the store. just so happens that this time around the shop keep wasn't some weakling level 1 commoner. lesson learned. maybe her new character'll be a wiser less "chaotic random" character.

[Mr.Moron]

Yeah, they threw a live explosive into a room full of live explosives while still in a room. There's only so much you can go do. If a player slits open their belly, rolls around in chum and their jumps into shark infested waters it's not exactly being a killer GM to say that sharks devour their internal organs.

[Sir cryosin]

Brief update: the whole thing was implausible enough that we were able to convince all interested parties that this was a hit on the party by the gang we were tussling with, via some kind of dominate and with the intention of the messy public suicide sending us a 'back off' message. Yesterday's session was epic. :smallbiggrin:

And the Survivor shopkeeper belived all that?

[Alejandro]

Sounds like you are a fortunate DM, that got rid of two awful/stupid PCs.

[Slipperychicken]

Sounds like you are a fortunate DM, that got rid of two awful/stupid PCs.

Their players live on. They may make new PCs to continue to blight him with their foolish antics.

[MaxWilson]

I feel some of the assumptions I made (the skopkeeper being more capable than most NPCs, a huge explosion if explosives are used in the explosives shop) were solid, but some (making it a Meteor Swarm, not letting the druid ignore the effect even though she got pretty far away, having live explosives in the explosives shop on display) were less solid. Should I have done things differently?

The art of logical abduction (cognates: deduction, induction) lies in finding post-hoc the most probably explanation for a phenomenon. Unlike deduction, abduction can reach a false conclusion from true premises; unlike induction, it's not statistically sound. But abduction is both easy to perform and super fun for a gaming world.

In short: regardless of what "should" have been the case with the explosives, you already know what was the case. The explosives were in the open. If that's rare and improbable, well, perhaps there was a reason for that which the players can now deduce (and maybe profit from). Perhaps there was a huge arms order from another party and the shopkeeper was in the middle of packaging that order when the PCs came in. It's too late to change the past but you can always retcon the future to make it more logical. Ditto for the shopkeeper being unusually capable--maybe he really WAS unusual, perhaps a local celebrity or hero. Perhaps he still has friends; and yet perhaps he had a reason for retiring when he did.

$0.02.

[BrianDavion]

Sounds like you are a fortunate DM, that got rid of two awful/stupid PCs.


yeah I tend to agree too. if your players do something stupid, punish it. they learn

[Christian]

And the Survivor shopkeeper belived all that?

We had documentary evidence so good, that my character was starting to believe all that. And she dictated the document and watched as it was being forged.

(Of course, kalashtar can be kind of funny that way. If you imagine something in enough detail, and make it more plausible than reality, maybe your imagination is the actual reality, and the reality was just a dream, right?)

[Mr.Moron]

yeah I tend to agree too. if your players do something stupid, punish it. they learn

This is a needlessly adversarial attitude. Sometimes doing the stupid thing has consequences, sometimes it goes by unscathed. You should be honest about how the world reacts not caught up in punishing the players for not living up to your standard cleverness. The GM is the arbiter of the world, not some grumpy old-time school teacher waiting to slap the dumb kids with a ruler. The last thing the GM should be concerned with is teaching lessons.

[Regitnui]

This is a needlessly adversarial attitude. Sometimes doing the stupid thing has consequences, sometimes it goes by unscathed. You should be honest about how the world reacts not caught up in punishing the players for not living up to your standard cleverness. The GM is the arbiter of the world, not some grumpy old-time school teacher waiting to slap the dumb kids with a ruler. The last thing the GM should be concerned with is teaching lessons.

And throwing an explosive into an explosive store is one of those stupid things that deserved consequences. Everything up until there could have gone by without ticking up anything more than bad karma. After that... Kablooey.

[Addaran]

And throwing an explosive into an explosive store is one of those stupid things that deserved consequences. Everything up until there could have gone by without ticking up anything more than bad karma. After that... Kablooey.

I totally aggree and i did that kind of thing with one of my character in a very memorable Shadowrun game.

I'm playing an ork taxi driver, and we're on a missionm to destroy a police building. My super armored car have C-4 in the trunk and the girl+troll are placing the explosives. Then the police cars turn on and start gunning the engine. My character having great reflexes but low wisdom (like me IRL) wins initiative and decide to throw a grenade at the car to save my teamates.

Everyone looks at me like i'm crazy then i remember the C-4 already in place and in my trunk. The troll uses his wired-reflexes to get the girl to safety before it explodes, while my other teamate in the car, an almost unkillable vampiric mage looks worried but ready to test his magic protection. The DM is checking the rules for explosives, with crazy exponential damage and rebound on walls (big area, small car....) when i remember i have grenades in the car. How many? Well, just 15 shrapnels and 20 explosives ones. Everyone loses their mind, wondering how i can forget so many grenades and why i kept so many in my car. (so with that many grenades, there's some in the cup holders, hanging from the mirrors and under the seats...)

My character died on the spot, but i burned karma to stay alive, so i only lost my arm, 1/8 of my characters points in gears, got horribly scarred and was found by a street-gang of crazy pyromanics (Halloweneners) who nursed me to health so i was in debts...

Since then, people don't like my plans and i'm not allowed to have any kind of explosives. They all shouted no when my gnome fighter wanted a wand of fireball.:smallbiggrin:

[unwise]

To the OP, think about what would have happened if nobody had died? A PC would have lit a grenade inside an explosives workshop and just stood there and end up OK. What would that mean for the sense of danger or achievement for the rest of your campaign? Of course one or more people had to die, I would have expected a TPK once we take the law enforcement reaction into account.

[JackPhoenix]

I totally aggree and i did that kind of thing with one of my character in a very memorable Shadowrun game.

I'm playing an ork taxi driver, and we're on a missionm to destroy a police building. My super armored car have C-4 in the trunk and the girl+troll are placing the explosives. Then the police cars turn on and start gunning the engine. My character having great reflexes but low wisdom (like me IRL) wins initiative and decide to throw a grenade at the car to save my teamates.

Everyone looks at me like i'm crazy then i remember the C-4 already in place and in my trunk. The troll uses his wired-reflexes to get the girl to safety before it explodes, while my other teamate in the car, an almost unkillable vampiric mage looks worried but ready to test his magic protection. The DM is checking the rules for explosives, with crazy exponential damage and rebound on walls (big area, small car....) when i remember i have grenades in the car. How many? Well, just 15 shrapnels and 20 explosives ones. Everyone loses their mind, wondering how i can forget so many grenades and why i kept so many in my car. (so with that many grenades, there's some in the cup holders, hanging from the mirrors and under the seats...)

My character died on the spot, but i burned karma to stay alive, so i only lost my arm, 1/8 of my characters points in gears, got horribly scarred and was found by a street-gang of crazy pyromanics (Halloweneners) who nursed me to health so i was in debts...

Since then, people don't like my plans and i'm not allowed to have any kind of explosives. They all shouted no when my gnome fighter wanted a wand of fireball.:smallbiggrin:

I'm not sure about the rules of Shadowrun, but C4 is surprisingly stable and hard to make go boom without proper detonator. Grenade likely shouldn't set it off, depending on the type of grenade and its proximity to the explosion. Other grenades, I'm not sure about... again, depends on the type of grenade, placement of the explosion and the way the other grenades were stored, but they are generaly designed to be somewhat resistant to "accidents"