[DnD 3.5] Dragonborn Half-Dragon (what do you lose?)

[Sir_Chivalry]

So one of my players is wanting to play a half-dragon, and might also be taking the dragonborn template for story purposes (half-red dragon, redemption and such)

So I've been looking over the Dragonborn template, and I think I've got the list of things the half-dragon loses:

-Natural Armour bonus
-Immunity to Fire
-Bite and claw attacks
-Breath Weapon

Now some of this can be regained by taking aspects of the Dragonborn template (Mind or Heart) but is that correct? The half-dragon keeps the Dragon typing, the Ability Score increases, and wings if appropriate to the size, and nothing else?

Clarification or confirmation is appreciated.

[DrMotives]

Honestly it's not very clear by RAW because half-dragon is a template, not a race. So your base race is really whatever non-dragon parent the character has, but as for the half-dragon template sitting on top of that, most of it isn't clear.

I can say you'd still keep immunity to sleep & paralysis, as well as darkvision & low-light vision, because those are features of the Dragon type which you keep.

[MisterKaws]

It still keeps the abilities that come from the Dragon type, so:

-Natural Armour bonus
-Darkvision, low-light vision, immunity to paralysis, sleep and fire
-Bite and claw attacks
-Breath Weapon

[Tanuki Tales]

Is he a dragonborn at the getgo from character creation or is he getting it after generation?

If it's the former, dragonborn and half-dragon are both templates and you always apply them in the most beneficial order, as long as that order is legal. So dragonborn can be applied first, then half-dragon, keeping everything both grants.

[DrMotives]

Is he a dragonborn at the getgo from character creation or is he getting it after generation?

If it's the former, dragonborn and half-dragon are both templates and you always apply them in the most beneficial order, as long as that order is legal. So dragonborn can be applied first, then half-dragon, keeping everything both grants.

Nope. Half-dragon is inherit, Dragonborn is acquired, so regardless of whether or not you start play with both, the order is already set.

[LTwerewolf]

Is he a dragonborn at the getgo from character creation or is he getting it after generation?

If it's the former, dragonborn and half-dragon are both templates and you always apply them in the most beneficial order, as long as that order is legal. So dragonborn can be applied first, then half-dragon, keeping everything both grants.

Most beneficial order is actually a myth. Never says it in any book.

[Red Fel]

Well, as others have said, Dragonborn is acquired and Half-Dragon is inherited. Inherited templates will be applied before acquired ones, regardless of whether "most beneficial order" is a thing or not.

So, let's assume the base creature X has no racial features whatsoever, including bonus feats, and that it's Medium-sized. Let's pretend it's the most boring thing imaginable.

We tack Half-Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm) onto that, and we get:
Dragon type
No wings - those only go to Large Half-Dragons
Natural armor, natural weapons, and a breath weapon
Darkvision, low-light vision, and immunities
Draconic RHD and skill points (but only RHD, not class levels)
Ability modifiers
Now, let's look at what a Dragonborn retains:
Type (depending on interpretation1)
RHD and skill points from RHD
Ability modifiers
Size (and Powerful Build)
Movement modes
Languages, favored class, and LA
Lastly, the Dragon type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#dragonType) comes with the following benefits:
d12 RHD
Darkvision and low-light vision
Immunities
Proficiency with its natural weapons
Okay. So, depending on your interpretation, your Dragonborn is either a Dragon (Dragonblood, Augmented X) or a Humanoid (Dragonblood, Augmented Dragon, Augmented X), or something to that effect. If Large or larger, wings are retained. Natural armor, weapons, and breath weapon are lost. Vision and immunities are lost. Draconic RHD and skill points therefrom are retained, because they only apply to RHD skill points, not class level skill points. Ability modifiers are retained.

Additionally, if it is a Dragon (Dragonblood), then as MisterKaws mentioned, it retains its vision and immunities. However, it loses its breath weapon, natural armor, and natural weapons - it is proficient with natural weapons, but the Dragon type doesn't get them simply by merit of having the type.

Honestly, it doesn't seem so great to me. I figure a Half-Red Dragon would simply atone and become Good, rather than undergoing the Rite of Rebirth and becoming less Dragon-y.

1 According to the Mechanics of Rebirth sidebar, a Dragonborn retains its type and subtype. According to the template description, it becomes a Humanoid (but retains its subtype). So this is debatable, and I won't go into it here.

[MisterKaws]

Honestly, it doesn't seem so great to me. I figure a Half-Red Dragon would simply atone and become Good, rather than undergoing the Rite of Rebirth and becoming less Dragon-y.

Yeah, I think it would be more probable for him to undergo a Rite of Draconic Affinity to change into a Half-Platinum Dragon, via DM fiat, of course, since Platinum affinities are usually restricted to Dragonborn characters.

Or maybe just Half-Force Dragon?

[Red Fel]

Yeah, I think it would be more probable for him to undergo a Rite of Draconic Affinity to change into a Half-Platinum Dragon, via DM fiat, of course, since Platinum affinities are usually restricted to Dragonborn characters.

Or maybe just Half-Force Dragon?

Or just not change his type at all, because he is an intelligent creature of making moral choices and changing his alignment accordingly.

Let's not get into an "all Orcs are Evil" discussion, here. He's a Half-Dragon with a Red parent. That means he has a parent who was "always1 chaotic evil." While yes, by default, a Half-Dragon NPC has an alignment that matches its Dragon parent, this does not mean that a PC with same template is forbidden from ever changing his alignment.

Be a Good Half-Red Dragon. Mess with expectations. Show those emo Drow jerks how it's done.

1 Let's not forget that "always chaotic evil" includes the Succubus Paladin, so it's really just more of "maybe, most of the time, you're probably pretty sure."

[Sydonai]

Beings of the Dragon Type cannot become Dragonborn.

[MisterKaws]

Beings of the Dragon Type cannot become Dragonborn.

There's no prohibitions whatsoever for taking the Dragonborn template, and it's left completely to the DM's discretion. Also, I'm pretty sure there is stuff on the book encouraging Half-Dragon Dragonborn characters.

[animewatcha]

IIRC, you also keep the LA adjustment.

[Ruethgar]

You can take the Draconic class for Red Dragon, then Dragonborn, then finish out Half Dragon. Or hell just take the half dragon class.

[Troacctid]

Or hell just take the half dragon class.
It's true—if you become a dragonborn at 1st level and then take levels in the half-dragon racial class (Races of the Dragon, pp70–71) or the half-dragon savage progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a), you should have the best of both worlds.

[Sir_Chivalry]

So what I'm seeing mostly is that the character would lose the fire immunity and breath weapon, and the armour and weapons, but keep the other things (stats, dragon type, the qualities that come with that)

Good, now the player can decide if an extra +2 Con is worth the loss . . . probably not

[Ruethgar]

So what I'm seeing mostly is that the character would lose the fire immunity and breath weapon, and the armour and weapons, but keep the other things (stats, dragon type, the qualities that come with that)

Good, now the player can decide if an extra +2 Con is worth the loss . . . probably not

Or he can take the half dragon class and keep it all.