Custom Races, LA and CR

[Cardea]

So this is a bit of a convoluted thing, but hear me out.

In D&D 3.5 we had LA/RHD for races that were more powerful than standard, as a way of balancing them out. An Orc PC with three levels of fighter wasn't fair if someone else played a human with three levels of fighter, as example.

Now in PF, there's no LA, AFAIK. I've seen some people use a creature's CR in lieu of LA, but I've no idea if that is official or not.

So my question is, what is the equivalent of LA in PF? If there is not one, what is a reasonable equivalent of one? And lastly, how would this be applied to the ARG for race points and custom races?

[grarrrg]

Now in PF, there's no LA, AFAIK. I've seen some people use a creature's CR in lieu of LA, but I've no idea if that is official or not.

Official, but old and never updated. It works as a 'quick and dirty' system.
Monsters as PC's (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races)

To put it in 3.5 terms:
Pick a Monster. Half of that creature's CR (rounded up) is RHD. You are stuck with it, it is not going away.
Half of that creature's CR (rounded down) is LA.
LA is automatically bought off 1 for every 3rd level gained.


So my question is, what is the equivalent of LA in PF? If there is not one, what is a reasonable equivalent of one? And lastly, how would this be applied to the ARG for race points and custom races?

As far as ARG Race points, I think I remember a difference of ~10 points between races should count as an extra level. But I don't remember if that was 'official' or a rough guess.

[Florian]

Race Points work a bit differently, as they connect with Average Party Level and CR calculation instead of tying into the class frame work (like LA did).

Example: 4 characters with standard races (10 RP) sum up zero to the regular APL calculation. For every 10 RP points more, they add 1 to overall APL. So 3 core races and one Tiefling is still fine, 2 core and 2 Tieflings add 1 to overall APL, and so on.

So unlike LA, which reduce class levels to keep it balanced, the RP system as used with PF rather adjusts encounter difficulty to keep the CR system straight when better or custom races are used.

[Psyren]

The other major consideration is that PF raised the race floor. The core races for instance have a net stat bonus of +2 instead of 3.5's +0, and then more abilities on top of that; for example, the PF elf gets everything the 3.5 one did, then adds +2 Intelligence, then gains the Elven Magic racial.This brought them more on par with powerful races like the Aasimar, and the latter's level adjustment was no longer necessary.

[upho]

I'd just like to remind you of an important fact you're hopefully already familiar with: don't trust a creature's CR to be a good measure of its actual power, especially when combined with PC class levels. As a rather extreme example, a 2nd level advanced giant archon-blooded aasimar barbarian would still be treated as if no more powerful than the 3rd level gnome vanilla monk, despite the oversized aasimar's absolutely stupid racial advantages (+14 str, +10 con, +2 dex, +4 int, +6 wis, +4 cha; Large size; +2 natural armor; darkvision; resistance 5 to acid, cold and electricity, plus more).

The same goes for RP. That system for example treats a +2 bonus to Craft (basket weaving) as if it was just as mechanically valuable as a +2 bonus on all Will saving throws...

Bottom line: in order to be decently balanced, these things need to be carefully considered on a case-by-case basis by someone with quite a lot of experience and system knowledge, and a monster or homebrew race may often require substantial adjustments that don't adhere to RAW before it should be let anywhere near a game.

..................


Race Points work a bit differently, as they connect with Average Party Level and CR calculation instead of tying into the class frame work (like LA did).

Example: 4 characters with standard races (10 RP) sum up zero to the regular APL calculation. For every 10 RP points more, they add 1 to overall APL. So 3 core races and one Tiefling is still fine, 2 core and 2 Tieflings add 1 to overall APL, and so on.

So unlike LA, which reduce class levels to keep it balanced, the RP system as used with PF rather adjusts encounter difficulty to keep the CR system straight when better or custom races are used.Sorry, my inner rules-lawyer is compelling me to say this. :smallredface: Just in case it matters to anyone:

While Florian is right about the principle, the details on calculating average RP and how it actually affects APL seem to be a bit off. The relevant RAW (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/creating-new-races#sidebar-challenging-advanced-and-monstrous-races) says (my emphasis):

"For groups with mixed power levels, average the RP and round the result to the nearest multiple of 10."

Since two 10 RP races and two tieflings (13 rp) would have an average RP of 11.5, the APL would still be the same as that of a same-level party consisting of say two humans (9 RP) and two kobolds (5 RP). So APL increases by +1 for every 10 the party's average rounded RP is above the standard 10, ie +1 APL for an average of 20 RP, +2 APL for an average rounded to 30 RP, aso. In addition, unlike with monsters PCs who will always be treated as if having at least one additional level, an increased APL caused by a high RP average decreases by -1 for every 5 levels, all the way to +/-0 APL. So even a party starting with a very high average of 40 RP and +3 APL will have +2 APL during 6th - 10th level, +1 APL during 11th - 15th level, and no APL increase from 16th level and onwards.

It might also be worth noting that three of the seven core races have less than 10 RP (half-orc 8, halfling 9, human 9), and the dwarf has 11 RP. And even though some of the "featured races", like the fetchling (17 RP) and the mentioned kobold (5 RP), have less than half or more than twice the number of RPs a core race may have, there are no specific mentions in the rules that these races require special DM considerations due to their mechanical power level.

[Psyren]

Sorry, my inner rules-lawyer is compelling me to say this. :smallredface: Just in case it matters to anyone:

While Florian is right about the principle, the details on calculating average RP and how it actually affects APL seem to be a bit off. The relevant RAW (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/creating-new-races#sidebar-challenging-advanced-and-monstrous-races) says (my emphasis):

"For groups with mixed power levels, average the RP and round the result to the nearest multiple of 10."

Since two 10 RP races and two tieflings (13 rp) would have an average RP of 11.5, the APL would still be the same as that of a same-level party consisting of say two humans (9 RP) and two kobolds (5 RP). So APL increases by +1 for every 10 the party's average rounded RP is above the standard 10, ie +1 APL for an average of 20 RP, +2 APL for an average rounded to 30 RP, aso. In addition, unlike with monsters PCs who will always be treated as if having at least one additional level, an increased APL caused by a high RP average decreases by -1 for every 5 levels, all the way to +/-0 APL. So even a party starting with a very high average of 40 RP and +3 APL will have +2 APL during 6th - 10th level, +1 APL during 11th - 15th level, and no APL increase from 16th level and onwards.

It might also be worth noting that three of the seven core races have less than 10 RP (half-orc 8, halfling 9, human 9), and the dwarf has 11 RP. And even though some of the "featured races", like the fetchling (17 RP) and the mentioned kobold (5 RP), have less than half or more than twice the number of RPs a core race may have, there are no specific mentions in the rules that these races require special DM considerations due to their mechanical power level.

We agree on something!

Yeah, I don't see two tieflings and two humans as being materially more powerful than, say, 4 elves. The former is a little stronger, but (perhaps ironically) the humans in that group are likely to be more responsible for the differential, and imo neither group would warrant a APL increase.

[upho]

We agree on something!:smallconfused: Wait, what the...? You're... You're right!

So we actually agree again! Two in a row, now that's a cause for celebration if I ever saw one! Here's to us! *holds up teacup towards screen before taking a healthy swig of finest Earl Grey*

But, ahem... Could we please not make this a tradition? I've put in a lot of work carefully nurturing my antagonistic image...


Yeah, I don't see two tieflings and two humans as being materially more powerful than, say, 4 elves. The former is a little stronger, but (perhaps ironically) the humans in that group are likely to be more responsible for the differential, and imo neither group would warrant a APL increase.So true. (Again? What the heck is wrong today?)

I think the comment on how the humans are likely to be the more powerful race in that party also puts the finger on one of the dangers with trying to balance races based solely on RP. While it may work mostly fine as a rough guideline in a vacuum IME, when taking the rest of the system into account, one should keep in mind that even a difference of more than 5 RP won't necessarily tell you the truth about which one of two races is the most powerful in an actual game. The number and quality of other race-specific options can also really change the balance radically, as seen with the popularity of humans and for example half-elves with paragon surge, not to mention aasimars with the Scion of Humanity trait.

[Cardea]

Reading your guys' responses helps quite a bit, but I still need to get a hard tack down on things.

So lets assume the environment is gestalt. If a PC was an ogre, and we kept any racial stuff to one side, which has CR3 and 4HD. What level would the other side have to be? 6? 7?

And at this point I'm thinking the easiest method for dealing with races for PCs would just be to come up with versions of lower RP races and buffing them to be more in line with races at 11 or 12.

[grarrrg]

So lets assume the environment is gestalt. If a PC was an ogre, and we kept any racial stuff to one side, which has CR3 and 4HD. What level would the other side have to be? 6? 7?

Going by the "monster as PC" rules:
You only care about CR, so only 3 levels would be needed on the other side.
And due to the CR 'buyoff' rules, when the 'level' side reaches 6, the 'ogre' side should have +4 levels (every 3 levels one of the CR is 'bought off' and replaced with an extra class level).
Since the Ogre is CR 3, and half of 3 rounded up is 2, you would get no more 'buyoffs' after this.

Or you could use the existing Race Point Ogre (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/monstrous-races-21-30-rp/ogre-23-rp). Worth 23 points, which is notably better than most other playable races, but not by a huge margin. -Maybe- worth a 1 level 'penalty' that gets 'bought off' at some point.
Or you could Race Point make your own Ogre.

[Florian]

@Cardea:

That´s hard to pin down as there´re no Gestalt rules for Pathfinder and the reworked classes, as well as archetypes, have the strange side-effect of noticeably overstacking when used without care. You´ll gain a lot more synergies out of Gestalt when compared to 3,5.

I think it´s feasible to drop the RHD altogether and rework the base race using the RP rules and go from there.

@upho/Psyren:

Sure, the RP/APL rules are wonky at some times, but I think they´re a better solution than keeping with the old LA system. When did the LA-buyoff rules appear? Savage Species? Until then it made very little sense to go for some races and I feel that´s different now.

As for humans being the "best" base race, I think that´s pretty much BP-dependent. The lower the value, the more the humans, followed by the two half-races, begin to look a bit lackluster. At PB15, you might actually go more for the other races, including featured and advanced, as you get more mileage out of it.

[Cardea]

Going by the "monster as PC" rules:
You only care about CR, so only 3 levels would be needed on the other side.
And due to the CR 'buyoff' rules, when the 'level' side reaches 6, the 'ogre' side should have +4 levels (every 3 levels one of the CR is 'bought off' and replaced with an extra class level).
Since the Ogre is CR 3, and half of 3 rounded up is 2, you would get no more 'buyoffs' after this.

Or you could use the existing Race Point Ogre (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/monstrous-races-21-30-rp/ogre-23-rp). Worth 23 points, which is notably better than most other playable races, but not by a huge margin. -Maybe- worth a 1 level 'penalty' that gets 'bought off' at some point.
Or you could Race Point make your own Ogre.
See, I just hate the buy off rules in 3.5. The fact it is an automated process in PF is just a flat out nuisance.

@Cardea
That´s hard to pin down as there´re no Gestalt rules for Pathfinder and the reworked classes, as well as archetypes, have the strange side-effect of noticeably overstacking when used without care. You´ll gain a lot more synergies out of Gestalt when compared to 3,5.

I think it´s feasible to drop the RHD altogether and rework the base race using the RP rules and go from there.

@upho/Psyren:

Sure, the RP/APL rules are wonky at some times, but I think they´re a better solution than keeping with the old LA system. When did the LA-buyoff rules appear? Savage Species? Until then it made very little sense to go for some races and I feel that´s different now.

As for humans being the "best" base race, I think that´s pretty much BP-dependent. The lower the value, the more the humans, followed by the two half-races, begin to look a bit lackluster. At PB15, you might actually go more for the other races, including featured and advanced, as you get more mileage out of it.
Aye, I could use the race builder for such monsters, but how do I determine an appropriate LA for them? The abilities are so varied in power and usefulness that I need to make ranges of LAs. But when it comes down to that point, if an Ogre costs 23 RP, but originally was 4HD and 3CR, what LA would be a fair compromise?

[Psyren]

See, I just hate the buy off rules in 3.5. The fact it is an automated process in PF is just a flat out nuisance.

But without buyoff, exotic races either become utterly broken or flat-out unplayable. Presumably, neither is a desirable outcome. Alternatively, you're forced to rebuild them from scratch using a Race Builder-esque tool rather than just start with their monster entries; doing this gets you more precision, but as you yourself have noted, is also far more work.



Aye, I could use the race builder for such monsters, but how do I determine an appropriate LA for them? The abilities are so varied in power and usefulness that I need to make ranges of LAs. But when it comes down to that point, if an Ogre costs 23 RP, but originally was 4HD and 3CR, what LA would be a fair compromise?

CR = ECL with buyoff baked in. Ignore the HD.

An Ogre Barbarian 1 fits in with a 4th-level party. By level 20, the Ogre will have 18 class levels.



@upho/Psyren:

Sure, the RP/APL rules are wonky at some times, but I think they´re a better solution than keeping with the old LA system. When did the LA-buyoff rules appear? Savage Species? Until then it made very little sense to go for some races and I feel that´s different now.

No argument here.



As for humans being the "best" base race, I think that´s pretty much BP-dependent. The lower the value, the more the humans, followed by the two half-races, begin to look a bit lackluster. At PB15, you might actually go more for the other races, including featured and advanced, as you get more mileage out of it.

I think you'd have to go all the way down to 10 PB to make Human undesirable. At the very least, even at 15 PB it's hard for me to envision races that blow humans out of the water for a given class.

[Florian]

See, I just hate the buy off rules in 3.5. The fact it is an automated process in PF is just a flat out nuisance.

Aye, I could use the race builder for such monsters, but how do I determine an appropriate LA for them? The abilities are so varied in power and usefulness that I need to make ranges of LAs. But when it comes down to that point, if an Ogre costs 23 RP, but originally was 4HD and 3CR, what LA would be a fair compromise?

Have you taken a look into the race builder? The Ogre is actually rebuild there, at 23 RP. That is al what´s needed on the player side, no LA or something involved.

On the GM side of things, go back to the APL discussion above. Having an Ogre in the party will shift what appropriate CR encounters for the entire group would be. Remember, this is a group-based social game, so everyone in the party profits from having this kind of frontline/tank available.

@Psyren:

That will largely depend on what level of system mastery we talk about. For people who have left the beginners game behind but can not yet fully comprehend what the regular guides tell them, working with a class/race combo where the two main stats and the dump stat fit and maybe throw in some minor but regular resistances in the mix will be definitely a step up. Thing Suli Paladin on this.

[Cardea]

But without buyoff, exotic races either become utterly broken or flat-out unplayable. Presumably, neither is a desirable outcome. Alternatively, you're forced to rebuild them from scratch using a Race Builder-esque tool rather than just start with their monster entries; doing this gets you more precision, but as you yourself have noted, is also far more work.

CR = ECL with buyoff baked in. Ignore the HD.

An Ogre Barbarian 1 fits in with a 4th-level party. By level 20, the Ogre will have 18 class levels.
I beg to differ. I think that no matter what, you need to pay that difference in levels as a cost to play something unarguably more powerful than what is standard. There needs to be a cost to it no matter what. You shouldn't get more power for free.

But with the Ogre Barbarian example giving context, I'm admitting you're right. CR with the buyoff over time thing could just work out to be my simplest solution.

Have you taken a look into the race builder? The Ogre is actually rebuild there, at 23 RP. That is al what´s needed on the player side, no LA or something involved.

On the GM side of things, go back to the APL discussion above. Having an Ogre in the party will shift what appropriate CR encounters for the entire group would be. Remember, this is a group-based social game, so everyone in the party profits from having this kind of frontline/tank available.

I literally stated that the Ogre costs 23 RP in what you are quoting, Florian. So yes, I have taken a look at the race builder. That's what made me start looking into this in the first place. And I am going to disagree. The Ogre costs 23 RP. I shouldn't let a party exist at level one where one person is an Ogre and the other person is a Human. That's quite clearly an imbalance of power. "LA or something" should be involved for higher parties, as doing otherwise is either ignoring the power imbalance, or accepting the imbalance and doing nothing.

And yes, I agree with that line of thinking with APL, but I don't like the idea of having to implement the APL stuff. It comes too close to the higher level party member outshining or outgrowing or without need of the party in (and I'm assuming) a lot or most cases in a game that is group and social based. And yes, there can exist situations where this is not, or never going to be, the case, it still is a red flag to me that it could easily happen. Its still something I have to consider as DM.

But back to my point: PC races exist with varying RP costs. As an example, a race with 23 RP should not have the same amount of levels as a race with 10 RP. In a gestalt setting, the adjustment is stuck to one side, but there still needs to be an adjustment. I could easily raise races up to a higher RP cost, or I could nerfbat higher RP races, sure. But what do I do without that solution? How do I balance them against one another if I use a method of LA?

Edit: If this is coming off as aggressive, let me know. Not my intention.

[Florian]

@Cardea:

Not to worry. I´m coming over as aggressive myself quite often. ;)

This about a very basic fact, that the Tier classification pretty much shows: There´s a glass ceiling between the different classes/Tiers and no matter what you do, you can´t really break that. That view, as well as the RP view, take into account the long campaign and discounts the swingy earlier levels (so levels 5-15). So starting as an Ogre Barbarian will end you with an Ogre Barbarian and all that starting goodness evaporates pretty quickly compared what good teamwork can bring to the field.

That will, naturally, change once you set a level cap to this, which will lead to different outcomes of this discussion.

As for Gestalt, please, before we can go deeper into that topic, tell us how you think this can be ported into PF so we have a clue on how to work with it.

[Psyren]

I beg to differ. I think that no matter what, you need to pay that difference in levels as a cost to play something unarguably more powerful than what is standard. There needs to be a cost to it no matter what. You shouldn't get more power for free.

We actually agree on this - but the problem you were overlooking was that racial power diminishes sharply over time. An ogre barbarian 1 is phenomenal compared to a half-orc barbarian 1 at the earliest levels, and so needs that LA in order for the half-orc to pack on a few extra barb levels and pull even. But at, say, level 11 - when the Half-Orc has Greater Rage, an extra attack, an extra rage power, 2 extra feats etc over him, that LA is starting to do more harm than good. By then the ogre should have been able to buy off a level and redress the balance at least slightly.

The whole point of buyoff is to address that issue - it penalizes the monster race at the beginning to keep them level with the others, but then that penalty is eroded over time to represent the power of the class starting to eclipse the power of the race.

It sounds like you're a little more okay with buyoff now though so I'll stop beating the dead horse.

[Cardea]

@Cardea:

Not to worry. I´m coming over as aggressive myself quite often. ;)

This about a very basic fact, that the Tier classification pretty much shows: There´s a glass ceiling between the different classes/Tiers and no matter what you do, you can´t really break that. That view, as well as the RP view, take into account the long campaign and discounts the swingy earlier levels (so levels 5-15). So starting as an Ogre Barbarian will end you with an Ogre Barbarian and all that starting goodness evaporates pretty quickly compared what good teamwork can bring to the field.

That will, naturally, change once you set a level cap to this, which will lead to different outcomes of this discussion.

As for Gestalt, please, before we can go deeper into that topic, tell us how you think this can be ported into PF so we have a clue on how to work with it.
Aye, but we're only talking about one race/class combination. There's also combinations of High [Mental Stat] races paired with a casting class that uses that [Mental Stat]. That starting goodness is only going to amplify their end game.

As the discussion with Psyren is advancing, I'm thinking just CR of its monster entry as LA. Like 3.5, it'd be kept to one side.

We actually agree on this - but the problem you were overlooking was that racial power diminishes sharply over time. An ogre barbarian 1 is phenomenal compared to a half-orc barbarian 1 at the earliest levels, and so needs that LA in order for the half-orc to pack on a few extra barb levels and pull even. But at, say, level 11 - when the Half-Orc has Greater Rage, an extra attack, an extra rage power, 2 extra feats etc over him, that LA is starting to do more harm than good. By then the ogre should have been able to buy off a level and redress the balance at least slightly.

The whole point of buyoff is to address that issue - it penalizes the monster race at the beginning to keep them level with the others, but then that penalty is eroded over time to represent the power of the class starting to eclipse the power of the race.

It sounds like you're a little more okay with buyoff now though so I'll stop beating the dead horse.
Aye. I wasn't grasping context of what you were stating, and that was my issue.

The other issue at hand is balancing lower RP valued races to more moderate ones. I think with those ones I'm simply stuck at working them over individually to be somewhat comparable to normal play.

[Florian]

Nah. Both Psyren and me are practically saying the same thing: Class will win out over race any day of the week. As PF classes all include at least one scaling element, this is even truer that it has been in 3,5E.

You can´t compare the "math" as done with 3E to what happens in PF. Even 5 RHD in "Outsider" are not worth a heap of ox manure compared to 5 levels of Fighter, and so on.
But that is the important point here: With the somewhat lackluster 3.5 classes, picking a monster was actually a boon. In PF, it is rather a drawback.

[meschlum]

As I understand it, races built with RP have their contributions discounted as levels increase.

So a 20 RP race counts as LA +1 for party levels 1-5 (meaning it's only an option for level 2+ parties), then LA +0 at higher levels. See the sidebar here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/creating-new-races) for details (it refers to the party average RP, so technically an ogre in a party with three 10 RP mundane folk is still normal, but that is a bit punishing for the non ogres).

Races coming from CR just have level = CR, with discounts as levels increase. It's usually a bad deal, but there are three major exceptions.

The first is monsters with spellcasting, who often get casting comparable to their CR, and then get to advance faster thanks to later CR discounts (nymphs, lamia matriarchs, naga, couatl, and the like are worth checking out).

The second is templates (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates). 2 CR of templates ends up costing you one level, and you can get quite a bit from those if you pick carefully. Fighters get a lot out of being Giant Advanced creatures (+12 Strength = +6 to hit and damage, +8 Con = +4 hit points / level (rather than an extra d10, so worth it!), +2 Dex for AC and Initiative, +4 Wis for Will saves, etc. Definitely better than a normal level and Weapon Focus). Spellcasters are harder to cater to, but there are options - mostly losing one caster level for the benefits of higher casting attributes and a few special powers (Nightmare Advanced illusionists or enchanters are scary), or mixing Young with a +1 CR template to boost mental powers at the price of being physically fragile (or Young Advanced for pure profit).

The final is Lycanthropy (and Animal Lords). Technically, these are templates, but they can be (ab)used to get excellent physical (and mental - mostly Wis) attributes at very low cost. The problem here is that you need to be higher level to get the best attribute bonuses (at low levels, the animal forms you can get are not too impressive), but once you're around level 7+ (or 10+), you can definitely benefit. The trick is that unlike all other forms of Pathfinder polymorph, these templates allow attribute replacement - so find an animal with high physical scores (and Wisdom, for Animal Lords) and you don't need to invest in them - a good remedy for MAD.

[upho]

Aye, but we're only talking about one race/class combination. There's also combinations of High [Mental Stat] races paired with a casting class that uses that [Mental Stat]. That starting goodness is only going to amplify their end game.Not really. If you take a look at what a full caster loses by being a level or more behind in CL and spell progression, such a race would have to offer one pretty darn serious casting stat boost to be worth it.

This was very much the truth in 3.5 as well, and the reason there were more suitable +LA races for casters is that there were also race combos which completely removed the serious CL and spell progression drawbacks, or even boosted those factors significantly above the standard. This was illustrated by for example the rather insane Venerable Kobold Dragonwrought white dragon spawn loredrake sorcerer, a race combo specifically engineered to have a higher CL and, most importantly, a considerably faster spell progression (up to level +4) than any vanilla race arcane caster, including wizard (not to mention access to some of the arguably best low/mid level spells in the game, such as wings of cover and wings of flurry).

In PF, there are no ways to gain back all the lost caster levels outside of the Young template (see below), which means a monster race caster is typically forever stuck with being at least half monster CR worth of levels behind.

That said, there are a few monster race benefits which actually increase exponentially with levels gained also in PF. This includes for example monsters with their own spellcasting, as mentioned by meschlum above, and monsters with a Large or larger size (which will result in an exponentially larger difference in the size of threatened area in comparison to PC races). More generally speaking, any monster having a number of hit dice greater than its CR may of course also grant a net gain in for example bab, save progression and feats. And then there are of course bonuses which are simply so large they're worth a lot more than the class levels lost, but these tend to be mostly restricted to Str-based class builds and/or monster/template combos with a CR of 2 or 0 (such as the giant advanced combo I mentioned earlier).

And then there's templates, and those may offer much greater benefits and ways to dodge a level increase, as mentioned. I strongly suggest you consider any templated race choices extra carefully before allowing them. Here's meschlum's guide to most of them (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?352704-Templates-and-you) (seems he forgot to advertise), which may help you analyze the implications of such builds.

Another thing worth remembering with PF's buy-off system for monster levels is that it's always considerably better to have a monster race of an even CR number, and the best ones typically have a net CR of 2 or 0.


Nah. Both Psyren and me are practically saying the same thing: Class will win out over race any day of the week. As PF classes all include at least one scaling element, this is even truer that it has been in 3,5E.

You can´t compare the "math" as done with 3E to what happens in PF. Even 5 RHD in "Outsider" are not worth a heap of ox manure compared to 5 levels of Fighter, and so on.
But that is the important point here: With the somewhat lackluster 3.5 classes, picking a monster was actually a boon. In PF, it is rather a drawback.I think this is true in most cases, but there are some quite noteworthy exceptions, as noted above.


The other issue at hand is balancing lower RP valued races to more moderate ones. I think with those ones I'm simply stuck at working them over individually to be somewhat comparable to normal play.Yes, and I'm afraid this is pretty much the case also for any non-standard builds, regardless of whether they include monster races, templates, custom PC races or gestalt. There are simply way too many min/max-able variables involved and too many combos available to give any other meaningful and generally applicable advice on this. I cannot even say that you shouldn't allow templates, despite the rather extreme potential some of them have, since there are certainly tons of class//class/race combinations in which even the most potent templates will be just fine.

For example, a CR 0 Young (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1) Atomie (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/atomie) wouldn't have any level impact, and grant:
Fine size, +8 size bonus to attack and AC
2x1d6 HD
Fort -1, Ref +8, Will +5
DR 2/cold iron
Speed 20 ft. fly 50 ft. (good);
Str 2, Dex 21, Con 9, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 18
SLAs including invisibility 3/day, constant speak with animals and at-will dancing lights and reduce person
Improved Initiative and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats
High skill bonuses such as (including Class Skill and size bonuses) Bluff +9, Fly +22 and Stealth +26

In short, in comparison to Paizo's PC races, OP for Cha-/Dex-based builds like summoner//oracle or sorcerer//rogue, but UP for most things melee and horribly so for anything Str-based.

Likewise, if you start at say level 3 (to allow for up to CR 3 monsters) and have CR-increasing racial options only affect one side of a gestalt build at time (as I understood to be your plan), truly hilarious combos become possible, such as a Chike (http://www.dxcontent.com/MDB_MonsterBlock.asp?MDBID=2358) Bloodrager 2//Advanced Death Knight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/death-knight-cr-2) Antipaladin 1. Though I must admit I love the flavor of a raging near-immortal giant undead (demon-blooded?) crocodile-snouted champion of Chaos and Evil, the mechanical power of this guy is leagues ahead that of any vanilla race martial gestalt build. I mean, besides the near-immortality, undead immunities, large size and superior stats (Str 26, Dex 15, Con -, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 20), he even gains 3 HD (4d8 from chike, 1d10 from bloodrager, 1d12 from antipaladin), "1.5" additional feats and +2 bab (3 from chike, 2 from class) from his race. And he'll remain vastly superior throughout all levels.

And these examples barely touches upon the wildly different power levels of different gestalt combos, which PF is kinda poorly equipped to handle well, just like Florian said.

Still, of course it can be done without ending up with serious party balance issues. When it comes to using the race creation system, you could also use a house rule to delay more significant benefits to later levels. This makes high RP races and things like Large size and flight a lot more manageable, and existing PC races can be offered a similar compensation, depending on the power of their race. I use this in my own current home game, which includes three homebrew races which would've been OP had they gotten all benefits at 1st. But by delaying some things to 7th level (for example having Vestigial Wings be replaced by flight, or Powerful Build by Large size), and offer one additional +2 stat bonus to most other races, all start with approximately 9 - 11 RP and end up with around 15 RP at 7th. This has worked great so far, and has helped balance for example the aasimar by simply delaying one stat increase.



Kaurakin
Most people of the common races have never met one of the solemn members of the dwarf related 'cavern-born' or reisdverg race, though they are well known to citizens of the few proud dwarven communities that houses a kaurakin family clan in their underground halls.

Though kaurakin tend to be stern tradionalists and very strict adherers to dwarven culture, young and curious members of the race sometimes decide to travel the world outside their mountain homes. These often discover the other races seem rather less curious about them, usually simply taking them for unusually large dwarves and mostly ignoring them. That is, until or unless their stature have grown to such proportions their heritage becomes evident, at which point they suddenly often find themselves being the center of attention wherever they go, and in most cases soon decide to return to their undergound halls in order to escape all the wide-eyed stares and questions. The few kaurakin who decide to stay above ground are typically on an important longer mission or have joined a relative who is a well-established member of a community above ground.


Kaurakin Physical Description
Kaurakin have stocky robust proportions very similar to dwarves, and while most individuals never grow much taller than humans, a select few, the so called arokaurakin (“great cavern-born”), can grow well above nine feet tall and weigh over a thousand pounds. These remarkable differences in size is an effect of the kaurakin's growth being dependent on not just age but also experience, a trait known to be shared only with the two other jotunblood races: the half-giant and the dönjot.

Male Kaurakin typically keep their dark red or brown hair closely cropped and their thick beards shorter than dwarves, while females often wear their longer hair braided and adorned with discrete silver pieces. Kaurakin also have a more tanned and mixed complexion than dwarves, and their stone-like skin darkens with wisdom and age, the oldest and most experienced arokaurakin having a smooth brown skin with lighter veins, resembling dark polished marble.

Due to their bulky proportions and great strength, the more imposing arokaurakin are typically less agile than their smaller relatives and dwarf cousins, while their size allows them to move at greater speed and their famous dwarven hardiness and vitality grow more prominent.

Height (range)
kaurakin: 5' 10" + 2d6 inches (6’ - 6' 10")
arokaurakin (7th level): (8' 5" - 9' 5")

Weight (range)
kaurakin: 340 + 2d6x5 lbs. (350 - 400 lbs.)
arokaurakin (7th level): (1050 - 1200 lbs.)


Kaurakin Racial Traits (9-14 RP)
+2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma: Kaurakin have big muscular bodies and keen insightful minds, but often appear gruff.
Dual heritage: Kaurakin share ancestry with jötnar of Jotunheim and the dwarves of Nidavellir. They are Humanoids with the dwarf and giant subtypes, and a kaurakin is treaded as being both a dwarf and a giant for any effect or qualification dependent on race or subtype.
Medium size: Kaurakin below 7th level are medium sized.
Slow and Steady: Like dwarves, kaurakin have a 20 feet base speed, but take no penalty to speed while wearing medium or heavy armor.
Languages: Kaurakin begin play speaking Common and Dwarven. Kaurakin with a high Intelligence score can choose from the following: Draconic, Giant, Goblin, Haramna, Terran, Undercommon.
Powerful Build (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/half-giant): The physical stature of kaurakin lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.
Powerful Will: The blood of strong-willed races gives kaurakin a +2 racial bonus to Will saves.
Weapon Familiarity: Kaurakin are proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks and warhammers, and treat any weapon with the word “dwarven” in its name as a martial weapon.
Indomitable: Once per day, when a kaurakin is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, she can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. At the end of her next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, she immediately falls unconscious and begins dying. A kaurakin is treated as having the Orc Ferocity racial trait and as a member of the half-orc race for the purpose of qualifying for feats related to Orc Ferocity.
Darkvision: Kaurakin can see perfectly in the dark for up to 60 feet.
Arcane Ineptitude: Kaurakin are very bound to nature and cannot learn or cast arcane spells above 4th level (including spell completion/trigger items such as scrolls, but not spell-like abilities).
Arokaurakin: A kaurakin that reaches 7th level may permanently increase her size one category, her height increasing by 40% and her weight becoming three times greater. Her larger size gives her a +2 size bonus to Strength and Constitution, +5 feet natural reach and a +1 bonus on combat maneuver checks and to her CMD. The kaurakin also takes size penalties: -2 to Dexterity, -4 to Stealth checks, -2 to Fly checks, and -1 to attack rolls and to AC. She also loses the Powerful Build trait, although she can still wield weapons as if she remained one size category smaller. In addition, the kaurakin’s base speed increases by 10 feet (her speed is still unaffected by armor).


Kaurakin Feats

Barakin (kaurakin)
Prerequisites: Arokaurakin
Benefit: You gain a +2 racial bonus to saving throws made against disease, mind-affecting effects, poison, spells and spell-like abilities. You also gain an additional +1 natural armor bonus to AC (this stacks with any other natural armor bonuses to AC you may have).


Kuldol (combat, kaurakin)
Prerequisites: kaurakin, ability to initiate two martial strikes, ability cast divine spells, Spellcraft 3 ranks
Benefit: Choose a standard action martial strike you know. As a full-round action, you may both initiate the chosen martial strike using a melee weapon, and cast a divine spell with a standard action casting time or less. The spell must be of a level equal to or lower than the level of the chosen maneuver and may not summon creatures, alter or add to the terrain (walls, pits etc) or target enemies unless it has a touch attack. If it does, you must cast the spell before you initiate the strike, and the spell is delivered through your melee weapon used in the martial strike (as the Magus’ Spellstrike feature but without a free attack).
Special: Whenever you gain a level, you may change which martial strike this feat is associated with. You may select this feat more than once, choosing a different martial strike each time.

[Florian]

Agreed. Spellcasting monsters or monster with the "count as" feature are pretty problematic, as are those that inherently copy class abilities and advance them with HD.
As for templates, I´d suggest differentiating hard between "regular" and "quick" templates. Using the later is designed to be workable on the fly, like "advanced" or "large" but can have devastating impact when used for an actual player character, as they´re not meant to be "balanced" in any way beyond a single encounter.

[upho]

As for templates, I´d suggest differentiating hard between "regular" and "quick" templates. Using the later is designed to be workable on the fly, like "advanced" or "large" but can have devastating impact when used for an actual player character, as they´re not meant to be "balanced" in any way beyond a single encounter.What would be the devastating impact of using the "quick" rules? For a PC, I mostly see advantages with using the "rebuild" rules (such as a stat boost potentially granting additional bonus spells and boosts to any other class-specific stat-related bonus), and see no reason why one would use the "quick" rules anyways. Could you give an example?

[Florian]

What would be the devastating impact of using the "quick" rules? For a PC, I mostly see advantages with using the "rebuild" rules (such as a stat boost potentially granting additional bonus spells and boosts to any other class-specific stat-related bonus), and see no reason why one would use the "quick" rules anyways. Could you give an example?

upho, I think you´re experienced enough to understand the full ramifications of all of that. Yes, this is a compliment. That´s why you should also know that gaining full immunity to things or great stats before a multiplier comes in counts heavily at T3 and below.

[upho]

upho, I think you´re experienced enough to understand the full ramifications of all of that. Yes, this is a compliment.Well thank you!


That´s why you should also know that gaining full immunity to things or great stats before a multiplier comes in counts heavily at T3 and below.Immunity? I think you're overestimating my cognitive capabilities. So let's take this from the beginning, because I'm pretty certain we're talking about two different things. First, let's clarify the actual terms:
There are no templates in PF called "quick" or "regular"
There are "Templates (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates)", and there is a subcategory of those called "Simple Templates"
There are two ways to apply a Simple Template to a creature: a) using the “quick rules”, or b) using the “rebuild rules” (this is the "regular" way and the only way in which to apply any non-Simple template)

You wrote:
As for templates, I´d suggest differentiating hard between "regular" and "quick" templates. Using the later is designed to be workable on the fly, like "advanced" or "large" but can have devastating impact when used for an actual player character, as they´re not meant to be "balanced" in any way beyond a single encounter.From this, I assumed you were referring to the “quick rules” ("designed to be workable on the fly", "not meant to be "balanced" in any way beyond a single encounter") versus the “rebuild rules”. So, using the Simple Template: Advanced (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/advanced-creature-cr-1) which you mentioned as an example, let's have a look at the "quick rules" and “rebuild rules”:
Quick Rules: +2 on all rolls (including damage rolls) and special ability DCs; +4 to AC and CMD; +2 hp/HD.
Rebuild Rules: AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores (except Int scores of 2 or less)And when comparing these two alternatives, I think you can understand my confusion regarding the supposed "devastating impact", and probably agree with me saying:
What would be the devastating impact of using the "quick" rules? For a PC, I mostly see advantages with using the "rebuild" rules (such as a stat boost potentially granting additional bonus spells and boosts to any other class-specific stat-related bonus), and see no reason why one would use the "quick" rules anyways. Could you give an example?I also hope you can understand why I misunderstood what you referred to when talking about "regular" and "quick" templates.

As mentioned, I'm now certain you were in fact talking about Templates vs. Simple Templates. And on that topic, I agree with you insofar as in comparison to other templates, there are a larger portion of Simple Templates offering substantial and more build-independent advantages. But I don't agree with the assessment that Simple Templates therefore deserve "hard differentiation", since there are also other templates offering at least as substantial benefits. These benefits are appropriately typically less "simple" and often more build specific, consisting somewhat less of flat stat boosts, for example, but may still have at least as devastating impact as a Simple Template when applied to a PC build able to get the most out of the benefits. A few examples: Half-Celestial (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/half-celestial), Nightmare Creature (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Nightmare%20Ettercap) , Lycanthrope (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lycanthrope), Penanggalen (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/penanggalen-cr-1), Animal Lord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/animal-lord-cr-2), Graveknight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/graveknight-cr-2).

Likewise, I find the assumptions that Simple Templates are somehow only "designed to be workable on the fly" and "not meant to be "balanced" in any way beyond a single encounter" to be largely unsubstantiated, considering it actually doesn't say so anywhere, and to say it's implied in their descriptions would be jumping to conclusions IMO. Yes, they're easier to use on the fly, especially when using the "quick rules", but that does not in any way also mean that this was their sole or even primary intended use. And regarding the "beyond a single encounter" balance, this would imply that opponents with non-Simple templates are only intended to be recurring villains and not designed to be defeated when faced for the first time. Not to mention that there are examples of recurring creatures with Simple Templates in published Paizo adventures, along with single-encounter enemies using normal templates.

TL/DR: Again, I think there are simply no meaningful generally applicable advice to give except: analyze everything carefully on a case-by-case basis.

[Florian]

@upho:

Sorry, I somehow had in mind that the two of us already had a conversation in regards to templates and their inherent issues. It seems I misremembered that.

Take a look at the simple templates from Monster Summoners Handbook. Most are CR+0, so would be eligible for a starting character without changes and bring a truckload of abilities to the table.

[upho]

@upho:

Sorry, I somehow had in mind that the two of us already had a conversation in regards to templates and their inherent issues. It seems I misremembered that.No, you didn't misremember anything. But I'm starting to suspect you're not reading my posts properly and simply have knee-jerk reactions. Please tell me exactly what was NOT on the topic of templates in my previous post. AFAIK, everything was.


Take a look at the simple templates from Monster Summoners Handbook. Most are CR+0, so would be eligible for a starting character without changes and bring a truckload of abilities to the table.Besides the young template, there's not a single simple template that does not cause at least one lost class level, if not immediately then in max 5 levels. And a lot of those which start at CR 0 will cause 2 lost class level in higher levels. There are however quite a few CR 0 templates that are NOT simple. Which again proves my point that it's not sensible to treat simple templates any differently than other templates.

[Florian]

@upho:

I meant what I wrote. I thought the two of us already had a certain conversation so I left a lot of things unspoken. I erred here and that shows as we now have a gap in our conversation because certain facts are missing. That has nothing to do with a knee-jerk reaction but is rather based on expecting certain knowledge that isn´t available - So, my bad on this.

The missing point concerns what happens if you take a template and then convert it using the RP/ACG system. Certain templates have a direct equivalent in the RP system and will have next to no impact on APL when used, unlike using the older CR-equivalet system. "Advanced" is available as both, a Simple Template as well as a 4pt RP option.

[upho]

I meant what I wrote. I thought the two of us already had a certain conversation so I left a lot of things unspoken. I erred here and that shows as we now have a gap in our conversation because certain facts are missing. That has nothing to do with a knee-jerk reaction but is rather based on expecting certain knowledge that isn´t available - So, my bad on this.No worries! By the way, I have to apologize for my cerebral cortex being even slower than usual and not grasping what you meant the first time, as well as for my previous post. When looking at it again, I realize it came off a lot more aggressive than I intended.


The missing point concerns what happens if you take a template and then convert it using the RP/ACG system. Certain templates have a direct equivalent in the RP system and will have next to no impact on APL when used, unlike using the older CR-equivalet system. "Advanced" is available as both, a Simple Template as well as a 4pt RP option.Oh, that would indeed get very weird quickly. Let's hope nobody confuses the "Advanced Simple Template" (+24 net total bonus to stats, CR +1) with for example the ACG's "Advanced Ability Score Modifier Quality" (+8 net total bonus to stats, 4 RP).

Whoa, just realized that using the ACG system to grant the same benefits as the Advanced template (+4 to all stats) would cost no less than 54 RP (using Advanced Traits (Ability Scores), ie 4 + 5 RP for two +2 increases per stat)! If applied to a race otherwise being an exact copy of a human, a party of four such 63 RP "Advanced Humans" would increase APL by +5 at levels 1-5 (decreasing to +2 at levels 16-20). That's quite a bit more than CR +1...

This really highlights how inconsistent and unreliable both the old "Monsters as PCs" (CR as levels) and the newer RP systems are. I mean, the Advanced template is rarely worth even a single class level to casters, so what kind of strange game would it take to make the same benefits worth 5 class levels? It sure as hell wouldn't be Pathfinder as I know it. Crazy... :smallamused:

Anywho, I think it's also interesting that the ACG system's power compensation method only cares about party vs. encounter balance, but doesn't even attempt to address PC vs. PC balance which is typically a much more common cause of DM headaches.

[Florian]

Whoa

Exactly.

Even rebuilding an "Aerial Human", one of the CR0/CR1 templates we talked about earlier, will clock in at around 30RP when extrapolating the costs for even the most basic abilities and dropping the scaling element (Full conversion reaches 35RP).
The same thing happens with nearly any Simple Template with, more or less, the sole exception of "Giant" (A large Human is 16RP). Let´s not talk about the total cost of Half-Cestial or even Shadow Lord, it gets absurd here.

Going back to an earlier point of this discussion, I had the full conversion from CR to RP in mind when I wrote that the templates will have an "devastating effect". The APL calculation for a group of, say, four "elemental" humans will get so out of bounds that, when used by the book, a Frost Giant will actually be a fitting enemy for some level 2 characters, or other absurd things like that.
I think it´s understandable now why I said it´s a weird imbalance when something is "worth" next to nothing when used on a monster/NPC and should "cost" so much when used on a PC.


As for your other point, the basic assumption still is that this is a group-based game with intact niche-protection in place.