High Level DMing

[BurgerBeast]

I am just starting to DM in a shared-DMing game in which the PCs are level 9 or 10 (depends on whether they levelled last session).

In a different forum, a comment caught my attention because a forum poster mentioned that if you just continue to use MM monsters and build your adventures in a particular way, then you're really not running a "high-level game." You're really just running a "low-level game" at high levels. I feel that this one of my failings as a DM.

Can you please try your best to spell out for me, in specific terms, what makes the difference between high-level and low-level play in terms of adventure design?

Secondarily, can you give specific tips or examples that make the distinctions clear?

As a final note, I am making a separate thread to deal with the question of intelligent high level enemies and how they generally might deal with the problem of defending themselves from magic, so if we could leave those specific details out of this thread it will keep things a bit more manageable.

[pwykersotz]

In general, complexity. A high level adventure should have opportunity cost for pursuing it. There should be multiple agendas in play from both allies and enemies. High level PC's should be connected deeply to the world through past deeds and the promise of future ones. There shouldn't be easy answers to problems. "Kill the Beholder Tyrant" is no longer a matter of teleporting in and slaying it, it's about understanding that he is the only one holding back the Ancient Night Hags who threaten to rise up. Is it right to destroy the immanent threat when it could unleash so much more? Can Night Hags be sealed away prior the Beholder Tyrant being killed? Maybe, but only if you can convince the Order of Sacred Brethren to let you into the secret caverns. But they let no one in, and are willing to let the tyrant roam free as long as the greater evil is kept in check.

High level players are incredibly potent. A team of level 20's can steamroll most encounters in a white room. So make that room a bit more messy. In general, I aim for three main threads that can be followed and that play off each other. There can be a bunch of minor ones too, but more than three main ones gets confusing.

[Easy_Lee]

In my opinion, the two main differences are scale and enemy "AI," if you will.

High level players aren't killing bandits or cleaning out sewers, anymore. Once you get into high levels, things transition from heroic fantasy to high fantasy. The party's adventures don't concern individual people or even small towns, anymore, but entire kingdoms or continents.

One simple way I like to think of it, since I read some Forgotten Realms books, is like so:

Drizzt and co face challenges appropriate for levels 6-12, generally speaking. They don't single-handedly take on dragons very often, and when they do, there are environment hazards, more powerful people, or other dragons to help them out.
Elminster, on the other hand, is an epic wizard. His problems would be appropriate for a level 16+ party.

Similarly, the enemies get a bit more savvy at those levels. After all, they didn't get so powerful by being incompetent. Advanced strategy, scrying, and manipulation are likely tactics for such foes. That said, given the nature of power, there aren't likely to be very many of them. The world only has room for so many blue whales, after all. Similarly, the D&D universes only have room for so many warlords and gods. These foes are very likely to have many underlings.

These are just my opinions. Hope they help.

[RedMage125]

One thing that becomes important to remember for DMing higher level parties is that your PCs' powers are increasing. They can do more and more amazing things, and you want to continue to be able to challenge them, while at the same time allowing them to flex their new abilities and feel cool and awesome.

You want your players to have fun, and feel powerful, but not have everything become "too easy". To that end, you need to come up with challenges complex enough that they are more than just "open this lock" or "climb this cliff". But it's fun to occasionally sprinkle in simpler tasks that were challenging or impossible to them at low levels that they can now trivially bypass.

[MrFahrenheit]

In a different forum, a comment caught my attention because a forum poster mentioned that if you just continue to use MM monsters and build your adventures in a particular way, then you're really not running a "high-level game." You're really just running a "low-level game" at high levels. I feel that this one of my failings as a DM.

Running a low level game at high levels is NOT your failing as a DM!!! Two things go hand in hand when I say this, both...
A. Bounded accuracy keeps lower CR enemies relevant. Sure they'll need to be thrown in with a boss each fight, but they're more than just a nuisance to be cleaned up after the BBEG goes down. Going up against a death slaad? Cool...if the party doesn't worry about his giant crocodile friends, in the swamp they just crossed, the wizard will be their dinner.
B. It's one of the only serious complaints a lot of us have about the current product list: the lack of an MM2. Meaning, even though bounded accuracy is nice, it would be nicer to see some high level mooks. Most monsters above CR 10 seem designed as bosses, and that's unfortunate.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The most important change is scale. At level 1 you're fighting through a goblin warren to kill the bugbear chief and recover medicine or baby Jane will die. At 20th level you're fighting through the Palace of Withering Sorrows to kill the First King of Chaos and recover the Heart of the World or everyone on the planet will die. At level 1 the Barbarian can knock down a guy and hit him with the table; at level 20 he can knock down an elephant and hit it with the inn. Spells and class features mean that old plots- say, overland travel- are effortlessly overcome, so you have to introduce new and exciting complications.

[Easy_Lee]

At level 1 the Barbarian can knock down a guy and hit him with the table; at level 20 he can knock down an elephant and hit it with the inn.

That gave me a sensible chuckle (I suckled). This excerpt may be the most succinct way to put it.

[Theodoxus]

Running a low level game at high levels is NOT your failing as a DM!!! Two things go hand in hand when I say this, both...
A. Bounded accuracy keeps lower CR enemies relevant. Sure they'll need to be thrown in with a boss each fight, but they're more than just a nuisance to be cleaned up after the BBEG goes down. Going up against a death slaad? Cool...if the party doesn't worry about his giant crocodile friends, in the swamp they just crossed, the wizard will be their dinner.
B. It's one of the only serious complaints a lot of us have about the current product list: the lack of an MM2. Meaning, even though bounded accuracy is nice, it would be nicer to see some high level mooks. Most monsters above CR 10 seem designed as bosses, and that's unfortunate.

I know this is going to sound trite, or condescending, but I'm honestly curious. Why can't you simply use the MM as a template and make your own? If you have previous editions, they're very easy to convert, even on the fly (I had to do that for a converted Skulls & Shackles game that switched in the middle of the 3rd book.)

Sure, it might not be official for an AL game, but for a home game, statting up a Cr 8 minion to a CR 17 boss is pretty easy...

@the OP, I love running high level games, though I haven't had a chance in 5E yet (I am ramping up the XP on my current game, but we haven't been able to get together for a month... they're 7th at the moment).

To me, I think of it as a judo-chess match. How can I use the players momentum against them. How can I make their plans work to my advantage? When they're 'porting around the planet and foiling what they think are the BBEG's plot, how can I stay 3,10, 20 steps ahead of them. It's never really about the NPCs they're dealing with - from slaughtering armies of orcs to making a deal with an aboleth - that's just flavor text and eye candy. It's about the metaplot and how to move it along so that the players remain engaged; not too hard so they give up in frustration (so many of the games I've played ended up in a confused morass of indecision because we lost the thread) or so easy that they steamroll everything and are never challenged.