Ways to Keep 'Em Dead

[Fayd]

Hey Playground, hypothetical question that I'm looking to get answered: There's a villain that needs killing in an upcoming game, but given his resources and position it seems INCREDIBLY unlikely that he wouldn't get Raised or Resurrected. What's your favorite way to keep an evil mortal villain down? I could just say DM Fiat, but ... well, that is narratively unsatisfying for me. I'm putting details in the spoiler tags in the event my players stumble across this. Don't look guys.

The villain is a Lawful Evil Tiefling Emperor; Rakshasa Blooded Sorcerer. He's "The Villain of Another Story", but he runs up against the PCs, and while they have a claw in bringing him down, that's probably not going to be their goal. Thing is, he is the emperor of a very wealthy nation, with access to some pretty potent necromancy and it's likely there are some divine casters. I don't want to resort to Trap the Soul; having his soul get devoured by a Cacodaemon is a possibility, but I don't know if overcoming a DC 14 caster level check will be that HARD.

[Belzyk]

If I'm not mistaken there is a spell that causes people to not be ressurected. If not break out vile darkness and figure out how your ocs can trap his soul. Bam physically dead and impossible to res because his soul is trapped. Then trade it off to a devil/demon who will destroy it.

Edit. Missed that part. Sorry idk besides trapping his soul. Cremation his body works. True ressurecton needs a piece of him to res so burn it all to ash

[Sayt]

Well, depends on what level and what spells are available. For instance, enemies kileld with Death effects can't be raised, only Resurrection works.

There's also Create Soul Gem (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-soul-gem)

[morkendi]

Polymorph into a turtle and drop him in an out of the way pond. If he does remeber who he is, it would take forever to get back. Probably wouldn't survive the trek if he tried.

[Kurald Galain]

(1) Flesh to stone
(2) Rock to Mud
(3) Purify Water

Not technically dead but should keep him out of the way for the next millennium or so.

[Arc_knight25]

(1) Flesh to stone
(2) Rock to Mud
(3) Purify Water

Not technically dead but should keep him out of the way for the next millennium or so.

This is quite crafty...but does the statue not count as worked stone and/or magical stone?

That is really the only wording that may break this combo. But that would definitely get rid of the villain without actually killing the target, this leaves no body behind to do anything with either. Nothing short of a Wish could return them to the land of the living.

[Fayd]

And a Wish is getting beyond the limits of practicality; just appoint an heir at that point. And actually at that point they're dead but not dead; if I were using 3.5 Tome of Magic we would have a new vestige.

I like the drama of it too; for the sake of theatrics, the Vigilante doing this will have acquired three (and some backup in case someone makes their save) Spell Storing Arrows with each of the relevant spells... bending the rules a little but I'm ok with that.

[Psyren]

(1) Flesh to stone
(2) Rock to Mud
(3) Purify Water

Not technically dead but should keep him out of the way for the next millennium or so.

I'm familiar with this trick but step 2 requires "natural, uncut or unworked rock." A statue is very clearly cut/worked, and one formed by magic (even instantaneous magic) can't really be "natural" either.

[Fayd]

I'm familiar with this trick but step 2 requires "natural, uncut or unworked rock." A statue is very clearly cut/worked, and one formed by magic (even instantaneous magic) can't really be "natural" either.

Well, it uses the conjunction "or" and I think a strong case can be made that it is uncut and a weaker case for unworked.

[Psyren]

Well, it uses the conjunction "or" and I think a strong case can be made that it is uncut and a weaker case for unworked.

I know it says "or" - my reading is that statues don't fit any of those three.

[Fayd]

My logic goes that the stone was not "cut" into the shape of the statue; the flesh became rock, as if it had formed that way from lava/compression-of-sediment/geological activity. It was never a larger chunk of stone that was reduced to the shape of a man.

[RedMage125]

Step 1: Kill him
Step 2: Animate Dead, turn him into a zombie
Step 3: Put the zombie in a lead-lined coffin
Step 4: Get Dimensional Anchor and Permanency cast on the coffin
Step 5: Drop the coffin in the middle of the sea

Being a zombie means not even True Resurrection can bring him back until the zombie is destroyed.
Dimensional Anchor prevents anyone from summoning the zombie or the coffin from its location.
Lead lining of coffin prevents anyone from scrying on the zombie to learn its location.
The only way to bring him back is to search the bottom of the ocean the old fashioned way until the coffin is located and kill the zombie, which is highly unlikely, since no one knows where it is.

[Diarmuid]

Are there any raise/rez magics that dont require at least some piece/part of the deceased to cast on?

If not, wouldnt a simple Disintegrate on the corpse work here?

[Doc_Maynot]

Are there any raise/rez magics that dont require at least some piece/part of the deceased to cast on?

If not, wouldnt a simple Disintegrate on the corpse work here?

True Res, "This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method)."

[Psyren]

My logic goes that the stone was not "cut" into the shape of the statue; the flesh became rock, as if it had formed that way from lava/compression-of-sediment/geological activity. It was never a larger chunk of stone that was reduced to the shape of a man.

Break Enchantment won't turn geological activity back into a person. It's not natural.

[Fayd]

That... is a good point. Hm. Honestly a death effect is looking the simplest at this point.

[Diarmuid]

True Res, "This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method)."

If you've got to account for 9th level spells being thrown around then you're pretty much already screwed arent you? Contingencies within Contingencies, Wish shenanigans, etc.

Unless you kill them in a dead/anti magic zone where you're able to trap the soul or something else you're pretty jammed.

[Doc_Maynot]

You asked for any. So I gave you one. But yeah, 9th level. :smalltongue:

[Fayd]

Yeah, 9th level is a bit much for MY situation, but this could be a helpful resource for others down the line, so... yeah. I completely missed Arrows of Slaying, they'll fit what I need perfectly. A bit pricy, but hey, it's a tough effect to beat.

[JBiddles]

Technically, True Resurrection specifies that it can resurrect someone who was turned into an undead and then destroyed. That's not actually explicitly stating that it can't resurrect someone into an entirely new body while their old corpse is off being a zombie somewhere - and based on the fact that it's 9th-level, it would be weird if you could beat it with Animate Dead.

However, Flesh to Stone DOES specify that its victim is not dead, just transformed.

Alternatively, you could drain the enemy's Wisdom to 0, which (IIRC) will leave it unconscious until targeted by Restoration, make a porous lead-lined coffin, enchant it as a Bottle of Air, turn it into a trap of Create Food and Water, and dump that in the ocean.

That should leave it beyond the reach of all but Epic magic.

[Braininthejar2]

Feed them to a barghest.

[Psyren]

A Barghest has a 50% chance of making them unavailable to resurrection by mortal magic. A deity however can still bring them back.

[dascarletm]

Have some Devourer Devils (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/devil-ghaddar-tohc) do the killing and feast upon him!

EDIT:

Other monsters include:


Time Elementals (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-time-tohc) - Their Alter Age ability has no chance of bringing them back.
Boggarts (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/boggart-fgg)
Crucifixion Spirits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/crucifixion-spirit)

[Ahus]

Step 1: Kill him
Step 2: Animate Dead, turn him into a zombie
Step 3: Put the zombie in a lead-lined coffin
Step 4: Get Dimensional Anchor and Permanency cast on the coffin
Step 5: Drop the coffin in the middle of the sea

Being a zombie means not even True Resurrection can bring him back until the zombie is destroyed.
Dimensional Anchor prevents anyone from summoning the zombie or the coffin from its location.
Lead lining of coffin prevents anyone from scrying on the zombie to learn its location.
The only way to bring him back is to search the bottom of the ocean the old fashioned way until the coffin is located and kill the zombie, which is highly unlikely, since no one knows where it is.

This was my first thought as well.

The other option is a Thinaun Dagger...

[Braininthejar2]

There are some obscure monsters from Dragonlance setting, who are aberrations of reality, and can kill you so dead, people will forget you ever existed.

[Treblain]

True Res, "This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method)."

Kill him in secret and cremate the body, so no one is sure if he's even dead. Then when someone tries to True Resurrection him to make sure, forge the imperial records/use bluff on his clerics so they use the wrong time and place of his birth. The spell will fail and they'll assume he's still alive somewhere and go back to normal location efforts to find him, which will also fail.

[RedMage125]

Technically, True Resurrection specifies that it can resurrect someone who was turned into an undead and then destroyed. That's not actually explicitly stating that it can't resurrect someone into an entirely new body while their old corpse is off being a zombie somewhere - and based on the fact that it's 9th-level, it would be weird if you could beat it with Animate Dead.


Actually, True Res DOES state exactly that.

It's in the words "This spell functions as Raise Dead...".

Raise Dead cannot bring back someone who was turned into a zombie, even if the zombie was destroyed. Resurrection and True Res specify (as exceptions to "as Raise Dead") that they CAN bring back someone who was turned into an undead creature IF that undead creature was destroyed.

RAW only gets confusing under the following scenario.

1)You kill a powerful wizard.
2)The wizard has a Clone prepared somewhere and he immediately animates it as per the spell Clone
3)You animate his original body as a zombie.
4)You kill the wizard again in his clone body before he can make another clone.
5)Can the wizard be brought back, assuming the zombie from his original body is still running amok somewhere?


However, Flesh to Stone DOES specify that its victim is not dead, just transformed.

Alternatively, you could drain the enemy's Wisdom to 0, which (IIRC) will leave it unconscious until targeted by Restoration, make a porous lead-lined coffin, enchant it as a Bottle of Air, turn it into a trap of Create Food and Water, and dump that in the ocean.

That should leave it beyond the reach of all but Epic magic.
Not really, a simple Wish can summon said coffin or the petrified body. Your solution does nothing to hinder summoning magicks.

You need to permanently Dimension Anchor the coffin.

[Seppo87]

What if you use Flesh to Stone, then grind the stone into fine sand and throw it into the sea?

Alternatively, you can get rid of him with a portable hole + bag of holding death combo

[FocusWolf413]

(1) Flesh to stone
(2) Rock to Mud
(3) Purify Water

Not technically dead but should keep him out of the way for the next millennium or so.

You're forgetting Destroy Water.

[RedMage125]

What if you use Flesh to Stone, then grind the stone into fine sand and throw it into the sea?

Alternatively, you can get rid of him with a portable hole + bag of holding death combo

Given that "the subject has similar damage or deformities" based on what happens to said statue, it is arguable that grinding the statue down to powder makes them effectively dead.

But as far as RAW exploits, not bad.

[EvilAvocado]

This thread has a whole list of ways


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?419197-And-Stay-Out-A-Guide-to-Staying-Dead-(for-the-other-guy)

[trikkydik]

Check out binding, it has many different versions. and it has ritualistic aspects to it.

Also magic jar

[Wolfofmibu66]

Okay so for clarification, we're dealing with Pathfinder right? This triggers a few questions:
1.) he's a lawful evil emperor right? how much do his people love him/are there any underlings who think they could do it better? (no rez because he got usurped on death and his underlings like the new guy more)
2.)sorcerer, but not wizard, so does he have death contingencies through some source, wishes/clones etc?
3.)what alignment are the PCs? do evil methods of keeping someone dead not fit for them?

Many of the options linked to in the http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?419197-And-Stay-Out-A-Guide-to-Staying-Dead-(for-the-other-guy) (And Stay Out) guide are 3.5 dependent, and one of the absolute best ones requires evil and specific feats. A simple method in PF for absolute removal sans the intervention of the gods would be a sphere of annihilation, possible locations of which you can find in the pathfinder Chronicle "Classic Items Revisited".

[Fayd]

The assassin offing the emperor is a CG Vigilante with a N social face; I think backbiting could be another good reason that he doesn't get rezzed... and has the social implications I want to have happen. Excellent. Making it ever so slightly harder to accomplish should work out well enough to make sure things fall to infighting.