Shape Shifting and Magical Weapons Question

[Jarlhen]

IF we take the druid and their wild shape as an example. Let's say the druid has a flame tongue weapon, for the sake of it. The rules are pretty clear that when you wild shape all magical items that aren't on you as in worn on the new shape stop working. But how would it break the game if magical items didn't stop working? Perhaps a ritual to give the druid (or other shape changer) the benefits of the magical weapon while they're wild shaped. Would that just break everything and be super OP? So the druid now has 2d6 fire damage to its bear multi attack because of the flame tongue weapon. Or +2 on each hit. Or whatever the magical effect of said weapon would be.

I'm also thinking of stuff like werewolves and other types of shapeshifters, so feel free to think about those too.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Wildshape is already a very strong ability; I don't think it needs this on top. However, rule of cool leaves us no choice but to allow the...

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[hymer]

Unless you give out magical weapons very early in the game, a houserule like this for wild shape would not break anything. Wild shape is subpar in the damage dealing department after the initial moon druid power spike. Adding magical weapons to most at-will damage but not to druid wild shape will widen this gap noticeably. Allowing the effects to remain would still see the gap widened in absolute terms (a five percent incease to-hit is worth more to a barbarian dealing 100dpr when hitting than a wild shaped druid dealing 50dpr when hitting), but a smaller one.

If there is a problem with doing this, it might well be to help an already very strong character (druid level 7+), or luring the druid into using more wild shapes for fighting - which can lead to a peculiar form of spell blindness, where the player of the moon druid forgets that s/he's playing a full caster with some shapeshifting, not a shapeshifting warrior with a few spells.

[Jarlhen]

Wildshape is already a very strong ability; I don't think it needs this on top. However, rule of cool leaves us no choice but to allow the...

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Well I'm doing the math and I don't see the problem after level 5. The wild shaped druid is super OP prior to 5 and after 5 it quickly falls to the bottom of the brawling types. But also, it's not just the wild shaped druid. I mean for lycanthropes or polymorphs or whatever. I'm pondering the damage output and shapechanged damage looks the same or weaker than weapon damage in most instances. So I feel like I've missed something. It seems as if it does become the rule of cool more than anything.

I mean a level 11 druid who wants multi attack goes polar bear. That's AC 12, 1d8+5 and 2d6+5. That's it. My fighter will be stronger than that at level 5. A werewolf? AC is more in line with regular people as they can wear equipment I believe, their damage is 1d8+str and 2d4+str. They get some resistances which is nice, but they're still a joke compared to a barbarian. So what if the polar bear can use its fancy new Staff of Clubbing which auto-crits when striking seals and gives +1? That's a rethorical question btw :D Might as well let them then. But I feel like there's something I've missed that makes this OP...

[hymer]

I mean a level 11 druid who wants multi attack goes polar bear.

By level 11, you'd likely prefer an air or earth elemental.

[Jarlhen]

By level 11, you'd likely prefer an air or earth elemental.

Potentially. But you can't shape change more until the next short rest then, so you'd either have it for one fight or stay in it for X amount of hours. An earth elemental certainly becomes more akin to a level 5 fighter or barbarian. But the power level of an earth elemental in terms of combat the barbarian already had at 5. The resistances to damage is pretty awesome compared to other classes. But in terms of damage compared to the resources exhausted to accomplish this, they're still at the bottom of the pile. I'm thinking does the versatility and other tid bits a wild shaper get for being an elemental make it OP if they were to be given the ability to use the magic weapon powers as natural weapons?

[hymer]

Potentially. But you can't shape change more until the next short rest then, so you'd either have it for one fight or stay in it for X amount of hours.

Careful! Spell blindness.


An earth elemental certainly becomes more akin to a level 5 fighter or barbarian. But the power level of an earth elemental in terms of combat the barbarian already had at 5. The resistances to damage is pretty awesome compared to other classes. But in terms of damage compared to the resources exhausted to accomplish this, they're still at the bottom of the pile.

No argument there, merely arguing that a level 11 moon druid doesn't go to polar bear for fighting power.


I'm thinking does the versatility and other tid bits a wild shaper get for being an elemental make it OP if they were to be given the ability to use the magic weapon powers as natural weapons?

As I said above, I don't think so. Getting slightly better but nowhere near comparison to those who should be better (particularly in absolute numbers) isn't broken, unbalanced or OP.

[SharkForce]

the thing is, a level 11 moon druid *isn't* giving up a lot of resources to wild shape into an elemental. they're still a full caster. they have all their spell slots. their ability to turn into an elemental recharges on a short rest. their archetype cost them 1/2 their level in spell levels per day and a few spells known that they could have taken instead.

there is no major cost. there are minor costs, and therefore there should be only minor benefits.

moon druid is not close to a full-blown melee character (apart from levels 2-4) because they are designed to not be close to a full-blown melee character. you can have a shapechanger that is an awesome warrior, but the moon druid cannot be that shapechanger warrior because it is a primary spellcaster, and as soon as you kill the "shapechanged warrior" aspect it instantly reverts into a full spellcaster with full spell slots and HP.

if someone homebrews a primary warrior that shapechanges into beasts to deal damage, then heck yeah, give them all the warrior goodies. but for a druid? well, being able to use all those awesome weapons and armour is just one of those things a fighter or barbarian has that makes them a mighty warrior while you are a druid.

the amount of damage that it is balanced for a spellcaster to do as a more-or-less at-will ability is very simple to find; look at the cantrips. understand that it is less than a fighter who just makes a regular attack by design. and understand that cantrip-level damage is basically how much damage it is reasonable to expect a moon druid's wild shape to deal, just as it is the amount of damage it is reasonable for a wizard to deal.

[Jarlhen]

A bunch of good stuff

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I feel as if you're discussing something different. The concept or design intentions are less important than the mechanics in this case. I, for instance, think that moon druid is horrendously designed and is completely incorrect in the way it's built. But my thoughts on the design is irrelevant. Does it break the game if you let them use the properties of their magical weapon while shapechanged? It's not about the philosophy as to whether or not you should or the intentions behind a class, which is what I feel you're discussing. It's about if it breaks the game. And as I said in the OP, it's not just about the druid, that's an example. It's about things like lycanthropes or others that can also shapechange. Does it, mechanically, break the numbers of the game? That's all I care about.

[Easy_Lee]

What you want to do is have spells like Magic Weapon specifically apply to the player, not the weapon. That allows these spells to benefit shapeshifters and two weapons fighters, alike.

Additionally, it's my policy with shapeshifters to, if I'm handing out magic items, include something that specifically does apply to the shapeshifter. For example, you could have armor which transforms into appropriate barding when a druid changes shape.

[SharkForce]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I feel as if you're discussing something different. The concept or design intentions are less important than the mechanics in this case. I, for instance, think that moon druid is horrendously designed and is completely incorrect in the way it's built. But my thoughts on the design is irrelevant. Does it break the game if you let them use the properties of their magical weapon while shapechanged? It's not about the philosophy as to whether or not you should or the intentions behind a class, which is what I feel you're discussing. It's about if it breaks the game. And as I said in the OP, it's not just about the druid, that's an example. It's about things like lycanthropes or others that can also shapechange. Does it, mechanically, break the numbers of the game? That's all I care about.

as i already said, the damage it is appropriate for a full spellcaster to deal is easy to determine.

look up cantrip damage.

if you want to get the number for a more specialized damage-dealer, add their primary spellcasting attribute to it.

and there it is. that is how much damage it is reasonabe for a moon druid to do. dealing large amounts more than that (say, by adding a flametongue weapon ability to it) does, in fact, mess with the system. for example, if you go look at the wands of the warmage, you'll see that not only do they not have ones that add lightning damage or anything like that, but the wand doesn't even add *any* damage at all (just attack bonus) and requires an attunement slot which no "basic" magical weapon does. if it was intended for full spellcasters to get significant damage buffs like a warrior gets from weapons, you'd see wands that let you add one or two extra dice of damage, the wand would add to the damage roll as well as the attack roll, and basic +X wands would probably not require attunement.

as for lycanthropes, if they're warriors of some form or another they keep all their warrior features, and can use regular weapons while in hybrid form. they don't need any special abilities. if they want to use an awesome weapon, they just pick it up and use it. kinda like how several of the lycanthropes already do. no need to give them sunblade claws, if they're qualified to use a sunblade they can just pick up a sunblade and use it.

[R.Shackleford]

By level 11, you'd likely prefer an air or earth elemental.

I prefer a Druid who MC ranger for a shark companion and wildshapes into an air elemental...

Who needs magic weapons?