Wrestling sharks, have questions.

[Deca4531]

So in my most recent game our level 3 monk decided he wanted to wrestle a shark. Back tracking a bit. We are playing Rise of the Runelords, and they just reached the thistlewood. SPOILERS in the middle of this map is a big hole that goes 70ft down to a 10 foot deep pool where a Bunyip (basically a shark) lives. They dropped a light source down, and their survival check told them it was more than 50 down, and they also saw the shadow of the something under the water.

So the party moves on but the monk hangs back debating. Just as the party hits the next encounter he decides to jump. He at least left his rope at the top so someone could get him out. He also dropped an anchor right before he jumped, I'm not sure why. So anyway, he hits the water, took some non lethal damage, then hit the pool floor and took real damage. I also added 1d6 for landing on the anchor.

So at this point the shark attacks. The monk used a feather token and summons a tree, which tips over and floats there. I told him that he would have to make acrobatics checks each round to stand on it, and it would start to spin and get slippery as he did. It maxed at a DC 20. (I'll admit I didn't know it spawned with branches and leaves that would have slowed the spin a bit, but he didn't think of it either or I would have lowered the DC.)

So he decided against fighting on the log and decided to grapple the shark, which I allowed, but then he tried to pin it and that's where I got confused. The rules for underwater fighting are pretty lacking. Can you pin a shark under water? I let him try anyway and he botched his roll, then the shark bit him and he almost bled to death.

On a side note, the full plate fighter realized he was gone, added his rope to the monks so it would reach the bottom, and jumped in to help him. He hit the water, took enough damage to knock himself out, then sank like a rock. I had the shark try to sunder his armor to give the monk time, who rolled a nat 20 on a stableize check so I stopped the bleed damage and let him wake up.

The rescue effort got even more crazy lol.

ANYWAY, I'm rambling, can you pin a shark underwater?

[BearonVonMu]

Why not? Pinned is a status effect. If you are asking about "can you pin someone (immobilize them and remove combat options other than struggle to escape the pin) without pinning them to the ground?", then I say yes. You can pin a child when you wrestle them by picking them up off of the ground, right?
Or maybe I'm stuck playing Dungeons & Logic. I am the person who thinks it is hilarious to trip an ooze, after all.

[Necroticplague]

ANYWAY, I'm rambling, can you pin a shark underwater?
Yes. The rules for grappling don't require that any certain type of terrain feature be around for you to interact with.

It helps if you realize that grappling is heavily abstract. You don't need hands free, you can use a shield while grappling (even against the person you're grappling), and so many other things indicate grappling is a very abstract "you get in close enough to someone that's it's hard to move and fight", not necessarily any kind of wrestling. In this case, pinning the shark could indicate that you've managed to get in so close and grab it by a few points such that it can't move until it breaks your grip.

[Deca4531]

Why not? Pinned is a status effect. If you are asking about "can you pin someone (immobilize them and remove combat options other than struggle to escape the pin) without pinning them to the ground?", then I say yes. You can pin a child when you wrestle them by picking them up off of the ground, right?
Or maybe I'm stuck playing Dungeons & Logic. I am the person who thinks it is hilarious to trip an ooze, after all.

Well you tend to have a size advantage over a child. I can see grabbing the thing around the neck, that would keep it from biting you, but its tail would still be free allowing it to move. And if you pin the tail I could still bite you.

And yes you don't need to actually grab someone to grapple them, standing in their square and inhibiting movement is considered grappling, but in those cases you're not dealing with movement in 3 dimensions.

I know the rules allow it, but the rules also say things like "if you're outside the light of a torch you wouldn't be able to see the torch." And "a few inches of water is enough to stop a harpoon." As a DM I like peoples actions to make sense you know.

[Necromancy]

As a fellow tetori who's DM made him RP these sorts of things.... yes

The grapple rules are a bit nutty so DM and I decided I had to come up with realistic ways to grapple odd things and he would rule ad hoc effects.

Imagine bear hugging a shark, holding down its dorsal and pelvic fins. It's only recourse is to flap it's tail wildly (escape artist check) which sounds exactly like pinned to me

[Necroticplague]

Well you tend to have a size advantage over a child. I can see grabbing the thing around the neck, that would keep it from biting you, but its tail would still be free allowing it to move. And if you pin the tail I could still bite you.

And yes you don't need to actually grab someone to grapple them, standing in their square and inhibiting movement is considered grappling, but in those cases you're not dealing with movement in 3 dimensions.

I know the rules allow it, but the rules also say things like "if you're outside the light of a torch you wouldn't be able to see the torch." And "a few inches of water is enough to stop a harpoon." As a DM I like peoples actions to make sense you know.

I'm not sure how big this thing is, but I could see grabbing it by the dorsal fin and tail (curling it into a U shape) while hugging up against it seems like it could satisfy a pin description. Can't move because you've got it's tail, can't bite you for the same reason a human can't bite something on our stomach.