Mystic - good or unbalanced? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Finlam

2016-06-21, 01:20 PM

I'd take a good long look at Psionic Weapon before introducing it to my game. I don't know if it's too good, but it seems like it.

Having played a Mystic through level 8, I would also have to agree with assessment. Unfortunately, it is also literally the only source of damage for the Arcane Mystic class outside of Talents. Oddly enough, I've found both the ability to turn a weapon into a +3 weapon and the super-smite ability of Psionic weapon to be pretty crazy, but if they are removed the class would be reduced to a purely support function.

Some things a level 8 Mystic can do for reference:
*Use truesight to see through anything for 1 min (1PP)
*Never be surprised (1pp)
*Nova for an additional 5d10 damage on a melee weapon attack (5PP)
*Impose disadvantage on any single attack against the mystic, dealing some small damage if the attack hits (1 PP and a reaction)
*Make any weapon into a +3 weapon for 10 minutes (5pp)

Those are probably the most frequently used abilities on the level 8 Mystic I played and at 44 powerpoints by level 8, I found budgeting wasn't really necessary: I would run out of powerpoints long after the Sorc or Wizard exhausted their resources (except that one time when we exhausted our resources in the same combat).

I don't really think that any of these abilities are overpowered or broken in themselves: they need some minor cost adjustment, but they're mostly in the ballpark.

There is, however, one discipline which is hopelessly broken ATM: Conquering Mind. First you'll notice, the abilities of this discipline target INT saves which most monsters are lucky to have even a +1 for Int Saves, making this discipline have a very high success rate. Second, for 2 PP you can basically re-write a creature's reality for 5 minutes (no concentration required).

That's right, Occluded Mind makes a creature believe one statement for choice as fact for the next 5 minutes and it requires no concentration. It takes almost no imagination to create strategies for effective use, it's cheap, it's useful in nearly every situation (especially when coupled with the Mind Meld talent to get around language barriers) and it can effectively solve almost any situation. In short, it is brazenly overpowered. It is considerably better in most circumstances than the 5 PP "Broken Will" ability, so raising it's cost to 7 would help to balance it out a lot, but I'm not completely sure it would fix the problem.

Other than that single discipline, they are a bit on the strong side, but not broken. Do not ever allow multi-classing with it as it would become a mandatory dip for most classes, but it stands alright on its own.

Leith

2016-06-21, 02:09 PM

Having looked it over I would say they it's not the cost alone that needs tweaking but the wording on the rules. Psychic weapon isn't all that more potent than lower level spells but it activates on a 'hit' not an attack, so unlike spells you don't have to spend your points if you miss. Occluded mind needs to work more like Suggestion, and maybe up the cost. There's lots of things like that in there.
If you let your player use the class you should consider tweaking it a bit. Or if your player isn't type to abuse things, just leave it as is.

Grod_The_Giant

2016-06-21, 02:10 PM

Turning Occluded Mind into Suggestion- or at least similar language about obviously false or self-destructive commands being automatically rejected- would go a long way towards fixing that.

Xethik

2016-06-21, 02:15 PM

There is, however, one discipline which is hopelessly broken ATM: Conquering Mind. First you'll notice, the abilities of this discipline target INT saves which most monsters are lucky to have even a +1 for Int Saves, making this discipline have a very high success rate. Second, for 2 PP you can basically re-write a creature's reality for 5 minutes (no concentration required).

That's right, Occluded Mind makes a creature believe one statement for choice as fact for the next 5 minutes and it requires no concentration. It takes almost no imagination to create strategies for effective use, it's cheap, it's useful in nearly every situation (especially when coupled with the Mind Meld talent to get around language barriers) and it can effectively solve almost any situation. In short, it is brazenly overpowered. It is considerably better in most circumstances than the 5 PP "Broken Will" ability, so raising it's cost to 7 would help to balance it out a lot, but I'm not completely sure it would fix the problem.

Yeah that ability has been problematic, too. I DM'd my way out of it, but my player wanted to use it to convince someone that "I am a God", "You are already dead", and a load of other messy phrases. It just... needs a lot of clarification.

Belac93

2016-06-21, 07:59 PM

Don't let it just be a dip. Celerity+2 extra skills, expertise in a skill, a talent, and third eye makes a really compelling level 1 multiclass. If they want to be a mystic, make them stick with it.

spartan_ah

2016-06-22, 04:30 AM

Finlam

2016-06-22, 05:10 AM

Playing as immortal now in CoS. just started and it's pretty nice, don't see it un balanced in any way. and pretty Jedi thematically.
occluded mind does seem a bit odd but then again, so is suggestion. it's just a way to manifest jedi mind tricks.
I din't see it op anymore than suggestion (and in HotdQ got some nice things out of suggestion).

Suggestion is definitely what they intended it be, and treating it as suggestion (as a previous poster suggested) would go a long way toward fixing it. As it stands atm, for two 2 pp you are getting an ability that's roughly on par with (if not better than) the 5th level spell Dominate Monster. Unlike dominate monster, it targets Int instead of Wis so it's odds of success are ridiculously good, it does not require concentration, it lasts 5 minutes instead of 1, it does not rely on the "charmed" effect which stops many creatures from being immune or resistant to it, there are no limits on the ability aside from the 10 words restriction, and the target gets only one save against it. Given the choice, you'd have to be crazy not to pick Occluded Mind Over a 5th level spell.

It's clear that they intended Ocluded Mind to be a Jedi mind trick; that's how I've used it in the games and it turned out to be pretty fun. But just because something can be used by a conscientious player without breaking the game does not mean it isn't broken: for every player using it as a Jedi mind trick, how many uncreative players are using "I am god", "You are already dead", etc..?

Would any sane DM let that stuff fly? No, but that requires jumping through logic hoops or house ruling, and if an ability requires that to function normally, that it's a strong indicator of a design problem.

The ability could probably be fixed by turning it into the spell Suggestion or taking a very non-5e route and adding in a scaling bonus to the save (not advantage) that increases as the 10 words become more unbelievable. (I vaguely recall a spell or power in 3.5 that did almost that exact thing)

spartan_ah

2016-06-22, 09:25 AM

since it's UA, A DM discretion is advised. but comparing to other UA classes it is not broken, maybe here and there. but DM could easlity tweak the occluded mind and should do as suggestion is vague in descruption up to DM's decisions

"suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it pursues the course of action you described to the best of its ability"

as you can see it's all up to DM. if you convince a character that he is dead, well it shoukdnt work.
regarding the INT targetiing. well.. INT is a subpar stat for pc's as well. to invest in a dump stat should come with benefits, like targeting INT with the enemy...
it's about time INT will be useful

Mjolnirbear

2016-06-22, 02:05 PM

Renewal

2016-06-22, 02:31 PM

Anyone have any suggestions on how to work with psionic weapon? I want to balance it, because it steps on the paladin's toes, is gotten earlier, by arguably a full caster, AND it's an amazing dip... But it's also their only major damage source.

Maybe scale down the damage die to d8 like Divine Smite, and just increase the cost a little--maybe increase the cost range to 1-9, and then increase the damage for each additional two points spent, instead of just one (i.e., +1d8 for 1 point, +2d8 for 3, and so on). This matches the damage progression of Lethal Strike closer to Divine Smite (both would reach +4d8 damage at level 9, for instance).

spartan_ah

2016-06-22, 03:28 PM

Why scaling down? It's his only damage output, he doesn't get a second attack, nor fighting style.

Finlam

2016-06-22, 03:52 PM

Why scaling down? It's his only damage output, he doesn't get a second attack, nor fighting style.

I think I'd agree with that. To compound the problem, lethal strike only affects melee strikes on a class with a d8 HD. While the temp HP can help some, the Mystic is still taking considerably more risk than the Paladin when entering into melee, and is only getting one attack off unless he invests in feats or drops and additional 5pp on the Cerelity ability, which will drain him much faster than the Paladin. With the Paladin getting two attacks per round, his damage per round is much higher and is more sustainable than the mystics, so even though he smites for less, on average he's dealing more damage.

I can see an argument for pre-level 5 balancing, but I think the theory here is that if the Mystic tries to match or exceed the Paladin damage output at levels 1-4, he's gonna run out of PP pretty quick. One of the defining features of psionics in D&D has always been the ability to burn hot and run out of fuel, and right now Lethal Strike seems pretty inline with this.

Rysto

2016-06-22, 04:04 PM

Why scaling down? It's his only damage output, he doesn't get a second attack, nor fighting style.

Unless he dual-wields, or takes Polearm Master.

Finlam

2016-06-22, 04:33 PM

Unless he dual-wields, or takes Polearm Master.

That's not an argument for nerfing lethal strike: the paladin can do that to. The mystic will always be at least one attack behind the paladin from level 5 onwards and he will always lack a fighting style. Being able to nova for more helps to close the gap in dpr. It steps on the paladins toes a bit, but a psychic warrior (the immortal) is going to do exactly that by design.

Mjolnirbear

2016-06-22, 05:10 PM

I think I'd agree with that. To compound the problem, lethal strike only affects melee strikes on a class with a d8 HD. While the temp HP can help some, the Mystic is still taking considerably more risk than the Paladin when entering into melee, and is only getting one attack off unless he invests in feats or drops and additional 5pp on the Cerelity ability, which will drain him much faster than the Paladin. With the Paladin getting two attacks per round, his damage per round is much higher and is more sustainable than the mystics, so even though he smites for less, on average he's dealing more damage.

I can see an argument for pre-level 5 balancing, but I think the theory here is that if the Mystic tries to match or exceed the Paladin damage output at levels 1-4, he's gonna run out of PP pretty quick. One of the defining features of psionics in D&D has always been the ability to burn hot and run out of fuel, and right now Lethal Strike seems pretty inline with this.

The Mystic also auto-heals, and has significantly more resources to burn. At fifth level he can burn all his resources in 6 rounds for 27d10 extra damage. The paladin can burn all his in three rounds, for 14d8 extra damage. Now the pally also gets an extra attack at this level, but 3x weapon plus 3x mod damage is paltry by comparison. In the third round, the Mystic has spend half his resources, at 15d10 extra damage... And he can crit-smite almost as well as the pally, who has more chances to roll a critical.

This doesn't seem balanced. The Mystic can nova better than the paladin? Isn't that the paladin's thing? Maybe that's my real problem with it.

But I'm not a math guy. I'm at best a house rule tweaker, not someone capable of discerning balance.

It's true there's not much else the Mystic can do once he blows his wad. The paladin still gets two attacks, still gets lay on hands, still gets auras (or will soon) and even a Channel Divinity. But the Mystic still can switch his focus around and plink away with a Talent.

Hence why I asked for input hehehe

Finlam

2016-06-22, 06:29 PM

The Mystic also auto-heals, and has significantly more resources to burn. At fifth level he can burn all his resources in 6 rounds for 27d10 extra damage. The paladin can burn all his in three rounds, for 14d8 extra damage. Now the pally also gets an extra attack at this level, but 3x weapon plus 3x mod damage is paltry by comparison. In the third round, the Mystic has spend half his resources, at 15d10 extra damage... And he can crit-smite almost as well as the pally, who has more chances to roll a critical.

This doesn't seem balanced. The Mystic can nova better than the paladin? Isn't that the paladin's thing? Maybe that's my real problem with it.

But I'm not a math guy. I'm at best a house rule tweaker, not someone capable of discerning balance.

It's true there's not much else the Mystic can do once he blows his wad. The paladin still gets two attacks, still gets lay on hands, still gets auras (or will soon) and even a Channel Divinity. But the Mystic still can switch his focus around and plink away with a Talent.

Hence why I asked for input hehehe
I agree with some of what you've said, but it's a very skewed comparison. An immortal has 2 talents before level 10, and at 5th level he has a whopping 4 minor options to choose from with his focus. The talents do little damage and allow a save for no damage. This makes relying on psychic focus and talents for damage a joke at best. You're Better off with a bow.

So yes, the mystic out novas the paladin, but he is next to totally useless when he's blown his resources. The mystic's low hp and utter uselessness when power points are exhausted mean that the mystic is risking more on each nova than the paladin.

It's not a matter of balance, it's only a matter of you wanting paladins to be the only class to nova. The solution to your problem is to just convert it to a non-smite ability, in other words: change it entirely.

Change it a flat 1-1 damage bonus that applies to all attacks in round or make it grant the user temporary use of fighting stance for some cost, make it require concentration and be held for only one round. If all you want is an unwarranted nerf or a different ability entirely, then there's endless possibilities for you.

Mjolnirbear

2016-06-22, 09:02 PM

I agree with some of what you've said, but it's a very skewed comparison. An immortal has 2 talents before level 10, and at 5th level he has a whopping 4 minor options to choose from with his focus. The talents do little damage and allow a save for no damage. This makes relying on psychic focus and talents for damage a joke at best. You're Better off with a bow.

So yes, the mystic out novas the paladin, but he is next to totally useless when he's blown his resources. The mystic's low hp and utter uselessness when power points are exhausted mean that the mystic is risking more on each nova than the paladin.

It's not a matter of balance, it's only a matter of you wanting paladins to be the only class to nova. The solution to your problem is to just convert it to a non-smite ability, in other words: change it entirely.

Change it a flat 1-1 damage bonus that applies to all attacks in round or make it grant the user temporary use of fighting stance for some cost, make it require concentration and be held for only one round. If all you want is an unwarranted nerf or a different ability entirely, then there's endless possibilities for you.

I don't want to nerf it into unusability.

My understanding is that each class has its niche, that thing only it can do. Rogues have sneak attacks. Barbarians have rage. Fighters have four attacks. Clerics have channel divinity and support, bards have bardic inspiration, wizards have all the spells, sorcerors have metamagic, warlocks have invocations... and paladins have the Smite. Maybe you're right. Maybe that's why it irks me so.

I think it might irk me less if crit-smiting remained solely the paladin's thing. The concentration thing, like a Smite spell... that seems more palatable to me. Same damage, same cost, but it requires activation before the attack, and you can concentrate to maintain the effect if you miss. How bad would that be, as nerfs go?

Finlam

2016-06-22, 09:38 PM

I don't want to nerf it into unusability.

...

I think it might irk me less if crit-smiting remained solely the paladin's thing. The concentration thing, like a Smite spell... that seems more palatable to me. Same damage, same cost, but it requires activation before the attack, and you can concentrate to maintain the effect if you miss. How bad would that be, as nerfs go?
That wouldn't be too bad, it would still be manageable and would encourage Mystic players to pursue other avenues for their character.

Just be aware that occupying concentration does have the side-effect of making Lethal Strike an either-or type ability with regards to Augmented Weapon. I expect you'll see players diverge and mostly prefer one over the other as both now require concentration. I'd be interested to see how that plays. =)

Lava

2016-06-22, 09:40 PM

Playing mystic in a campaign now, only level 3 but so far seems pretty good. I'm currently discussing with the DM regarding the use of Psionic Disciplines and the Psi limit, specifically this:

There is a limit on the number of psi points you can spend to activate a psionic discipline

My take is that each time you activate a Discipline, you can expend up to your Psi limit (e.g. at 5th level, you can expend 5pp). As such, a 5th level mystic using Psionic Weapon could spend 1pp on Ethereal Weapon, then 5pp on Lethal Strike for the first hit, then another 5pp on the second hit for a total of 11pp.

The DM takes it to mean that Psionic Weapon is the discipline being activated, and a total of 5pp could be spent, divided any way you choose (e.g. 1pp on EW, and 2pp on each LS).

Personally I think this would make their damage fall off extremely quickly past 5th level, and going by what most of you are saying here isn't how it works.

One thing to note, the DM is allowing multi-classing, but it's unlikely the campaign will go past 10th level and I wouldn't be wanting to multi-class earlier than that anyway.

Belac93

2016-06-22, 10:51 PM

Well, sometime in the next little while, I will be playing an awakened mind mystic with psionic weapon and third eye, so I can hopefully give some feedback on how that works out. I am playing him in an online game, but if I do not get in (its a pbp), then I will be playing in a solo game in person.

spartan_ah

2016-06-23, 01:46 AM

I don't want to nerf it into unusability.

My understanding is that each class has its niche, that thing only it can do. Rogues have sneak attacks. Barbarians have rage. Fighters have four attacks. Clerics have channel divinity and support, bards have bardic inspiration, wizards have all the spells, sorcerors have metamagic, warlocks have invocations... and paladins have the Smite. Maybe you're right. Maybe that's why it irks me so.

I think it might irk me less if crit-smiting remained solely the paladin's thing. The concentration thing, like a Smite spell... that seems more palatable to me. Same damage, same cost, but it requires activation before the attack, and you can concentrate to maintain the effect if you miss. How bad would that be, as nerfs go?

you just nerfed classes into stereotypes, can argue that both bards and wizards are spellcasters, therefore stepping on each other's toes. and can say that awakened competes with GOO warlockor valor with ranger.
at the end each class has it's own concept that goes far beyond a mechanical concept. the lore is different and the concept is different. so nerfing the immortal just for sake of uniqueness in mechanical aspects just misses the rpg concept od D&D

Farecry

2016-06-23, 02:22 AM

The bard says, "Forget that stereotype, I do what I want!"
Also, if you nerf/take away the nova aspect then his damage is completely sub-par to other classes.

Mjolnirbear

2016-06-23, 06:32 AM

you just nerfed classes into stereotypes, can argue that both bards and wizards are spellcasters, therefore stepping on each other's toes. and can say that awakened competes with GOO warlockor valor with ranger.
at the end each class has it's own concept that goes far beyond a mechanical concept. the lore is different and the concept is different. so nerfing the immortal just for sake of uniqueness in mechanical aspects just misses the rpg concept od D&D

I'm sorry... Stereotypes? That each class has something that sets them apart as uniquely theirs isn't a stereotype. It's baked into the design. You can't say "I want sneak attack" and not play a rogue. You can play a concept that is not roguish, but mechanically, you need at least a rogue dip to get sneak attack.

A bard can steal Find Steed, a fighter have more attacks, a cleric more Channel Divinity and a Wizard has more spell versatility. Getting to Smite without risking wasting resources was, until the Mystic, the most unique thing about paladins. Now the Mystic can do it, and do it better?

Making him spend the resources beforehand, in my opinion, does only a minor change to the damage and has a slight risk of losing resources which he has in abundance anyways.

It's true that there may be side effects. I'll be looking into it and may revert the change for my player. However, it speaks to the unfinished nature of the Mystic that an *option* in their class appears so necessary to their function and usability, why is it not baked into the core class instead? You don't see only Vengeance paladins getting to smite or only Assassin rogues getting to sneak attack, so perhaps we should be concerned about a Mystic *not* choosing Psionic Weapon. Is such a Mystic still useable? Does he contribute enough to the group? Or is Psionic Weapon so good no one can afford not to take it?

Finlam

2016-06-23, 08:33 AM

However, it speaks to the unfinished nature of the Mystic that an *option* in their class appears so necessary to their function and usability, why is it not baked into the core class instead? You don't see only Vengeance paladins getting to smite or only Assassin rogues getting to sneak attack, so perhaps we should be concerned about a Mystic *not* choosing Psionic Weapon. Is such a Mystic still useable? Does he contribute enough to the group? Or is Psionic Weapon so good no one can afford not to take it?
So we're touching on a few different things here, but they all stem from the same source: the Arcane Mystic is not a single class, it is two classes mashed together so that prototypes of both can be tested at the same time. This is evident in the fact that the Mystic's sub-classes give out skills and proficiency in a manner we've only ever seen in base classes; it is also evident in the wide thematic difference between the Immortal and Awakened abilities.

A lot of issues would be solved by splitting them into two distinct classes as they are clearly intended to be; however, there is currently not enough psionic content to make it possible, if they'd added about 3 more disciplines and a couple of talents, it would be doable. Unfortunately, because they're testing both classes without fully fleshing out either of them, it's very difficult (if not impossible) to build a functional straight Immortal or Awakened and you end up with some weird quirks, like Psionic Weapon being a mandatory grab if you want any damage output. I suspect this is because they want to play test non-damage-focused psionic abilities and they are already confident in their methods for balancing damaging abilities.

I hope that provides some insight for *why* the class is that way: it's just a bit schizophrenic at the moment, but it's doing very well for itself, all things considered.

I don't think a fully satisfactory Mystic can exist without the creation of a non-trivial amount of additional content, enough to split the classes and still have them remain functional. That said, I do agree that it would have been nice to have at least one alternative to Psionic Weapon because right now the Talents are not viable as a source of damage, and if you don't pick Psionic Weapon, then you're relegated to a 100% dedicated support role, stuck in some awkward no-man's land where you can kind of do some rogue stuff and throw around some good buffs and maybe even healing kind of like a cleric, but you can't do any of it that long or that well.

Until there's additional content (disciplines, talents, and class features) and the classes are fully split apart, I think we're stuck with Psionic Weapon as a mandatory dip.

=/

Belac93

2016-06-23, 09:11 AM

So we're touching on a few different things here, but they all stem from the same source: the Arcane Mystic is not a single class, it is two classes mashed together so that prototypes of both can be tested at the same time. This is evident in the fact that the Mystic's sub-classes give out skills and proficiency in a manner we've only ever seen in base classes; it is also evident in the wide thematic difference between the Immortal and Awakened abilities.

A lot of issues would be solved by splitting them into two distinct classes as they are clearly intended to be; however, there is currently not enough psionic content to make it possible, if they'd added about 3 more disciplines and a couple of talents, it would be doable. Unfortunately, because they're testing both classes without fully fleshing out either of them, it's very difficult (if not impossible) to build a functional straight Immortal or Awakened and you end up with some weird quirks, like Psionic Weapon being a mandatory grab if you want any damage output. I suspect this is because they want to play test non-damage-focused psionic abilities and they are already confident in their methods for balancing damaging abilities.

I hope that provides some insight for *why* the class is that way: it's just a bit schizophrenic at the moment, but it's doing very well for itself, all things considered.

I don't think a fully satisfactory Mystic can exist without the creation of a non-trivial amount of additional content, enough to split the classes and still have them remain functional. That said, I do agree that it would have been nice to have at least one alternative to Psionic Weapon because right now the Talents are not viable as a source of damage, and if you don't pick Psionic Weapon, then you're relegated to a 100% dedicated support role, stuck in some awkward no-man's land where you can kind of do some rogue stuff and throw around some good buffs and maybe even healing kind of like a cleric, but you can't do any of it that long or that well.

Until there's additional content (disciplines, talents, and class features) and the classes are fully split apart, I think we're stuck with Psionic Weapon as a mandatory dip.

=/

Ehh, I don't think this is right. They have said that they will be adding 2 new orders (order of the invisible hand and order of the knife), several more disciplines, and more talents. They are not going to split it into two classes, that would just be weird, and doesn't fit with 5e's design philosophy at all (why have 2 psionic classes when you can have 1?). I'm sure they will be adding stuff for better and more consistent damage.

Think about it. We have the unfinished class from levels 1-10, with only have the orders, only 3 greater disciplines, 8 lesser, and 7 talents. So, we can probably expect at least another 3 greater disciplines, a couple more lesser for immortal and awakened, and then 3 each greater and at least 9 lesser each for the knife and the invisible hand. Also probably quite a few more talents.

Maybe there will even be another type of discipline for higher levels (like, one you gain at level 15). Remember, this is only their second draft, with at least 2 more in the UA, and probably many more out of it. But I am certain it will not be 2 separate classes. Otherwise, what is the point of making assassin and rogue different? Or folding the hexblade into the warlock? Or the bladesinger into wizard? 5e doesn't create new classes where none are needed, it recycles existing classes to fit it's needs.

With your idea for vastly different abilities, warlock only gets a couple of unique abilities besides spellcasting from its base class, but no one says it should be more than one class.

Finlam

2016-06-23, 10:42 AM

Ehh, I don't think this is right. They have said that they will be adding 2 new orders (order of the invisible hand and order of the knife), several more disciplines, and more talents. They are not going to split it into two classes, that would just be weird, and doesn't fit with 5e's design philosophy at all (why have 2 psionic classes when you can have 1?).

Why have two magic classes when you can have one? This line of thinking is a non-sequitur.

I will grant that it's possible it could be split into different sub-classes, but it's very difficult to explain the granting of armor and weapon proficiency through the Matrial Order ability or the granting of extra skills through the Awakened Expertise ability at first level in this context. 5e has been very consistent about discouraging dips by putting strong class features at least two levels into the class (usually at 3 when you get your sub-class) this is literally the only example that breaks that paradigm and breaks it like a train full bricks crashing through a glass factory.

If they are not intended to be separate classes, they are still clearly designed that way. No one is saying that the class or (unlikely) subclasses will be locked to only disciplines of their order, that is unlikely given the previous designs of psionics in D&D, but they clearly will have different base skills and proficiencies which sounds exactly like a class.

I agree that it's evident they intend for different tiers of psionic abilities, so there will probably be a tier 10+ and a tier 5+ and I suspect when it's finally published a few of the abilities we see now will have moved tier. I would expect the Knife to be a subclass option of the Psionic-Warrior type to which the Immortal belongs, with the Immortal perhaps becoming a sub-class on its own, and the Invisible hand to become a sub-class of the Psion type to which the Awakened belongs, with it too possibly becoming a subclass. It would be very strange if they simply added two more sub-classes: it would make the Mystic the first class in 5e to have more than 3 complete subclass options at first publication (unless you stretch to include cleric domains).

Any way you look at, when it hits publication we're getting a psychic-warrior type class and a psychic caster type class at the least, and both of them are mashed together right now in the form of the Mystic.

Xethik

2016-06-23, 01:30 PM

Playing mystic in a campaign now, only level 3 but so far seems pretty good. I'm currently discussing with the DM regarding the use of Psionic Disciplines and the Psi limit, specifically this:

My take is that each time you activate a Discipline, you can expend up to your Psi limit (e.g. at 5th level, you can expend 5pp). As such, a 5th level mystic using Psionic Weapon could spend 1pp on Ethereal Weapon, then 5pp on Lethal Strike for the first hit, then another 5pp on the second hit for a total of 11pp.

The DM takes it to mean that Psionic Weapon is the discipline being activated, and a total of 5pp could be spent, divided any way you choose (e.g. 1pp on EW, and 2pp on each LS).

Personally I think this would make their damage fall off extremely quickly past 5th level, and going by what most of you are saying here isn't how it works.

One thing to note, the DM is allowing multi-classing, but it's unlikely the campaign will go past 10th level and I wouldn't be wanting to multi-class earlier than that anyway.

I'm not an authority over your DM, but I think you have the right of it. Take a look at the "Effects and Psi Points" subheader under Using Disciplines. I think that has more specific rules on what the psi limit does.

spartan_ah

2016-06-23, 04:12 PM

etheral weapon doesn't require an attack role, therefore it doesn't work with lethal strike...
just saying

MrStabby

2016-06-23, 06:47 PM

I am going to join the chorus here - Mystic is a good addition to a game and not totally unreasonable, unless you allow multi-classing.

jas61292

2016-06-23, 07:46 PM

I am going to join the chorus here - Mystic is a good addition to a game and not totally unreasonable, unless you allow multi-classing.

So true. It is arguably one of, if not the, best dip for.... well... almost everything. A single level can grant you so much, with so little cost. I know they want classes to have an identity early on, but I really feel a lot of stuff needs to be pushed back until at least level 3, and many of the starting disciplines should not be available until much later.

jolt9

2016-08-29, 12:30 PM

ive been playing a mystic for a few of weeks.
so far id say its a little underwhelming, tho that could be how the gm is ruling things to make them more like already existing effects, such as all the psychic damage having a visible manifestation originating from me, and any mind affecting ability leaves the subject knowing they were affected like a charm spell would, and if something effects magic he is ruling it as effecting that too. which seems reasonable from his prospective, but from a playing perspective, i dont have nearly as much versatility as the ability hes making it take the downside of. leaving me filling like a lousy alternative to those other options
i have very few options for combat, smite being the only damage increasing one. with out that id be dealing a max of 2d8+stat a round which is on par to the melee of a cleric making my lethal strike filling the roll of every other damage spell, which is on par with what he dmg say the damage should be, with 5 spell points(which have the exact same progershion as psi points) equaling a 3rd level spell and the dmg says a 3rd level spell should deal 5d10 to a single target, leaving it 1 melee attack stronger. but it dosnt go beyond that. through out the rest of my levels i have 1 slightly stronger then average 3rd level spell i can cast a lot.
on top of that everything is int saves and psychic damage, which admittedly are the most common bad save, and non resisted damage, but nothing is vulnerable to it ether, paladins get radiant which is only resisted by angles(which in most games you would rarely ever be fighting ageist, less so as a paladin) but lots of things are vulnerable to it.
it fills a weird spot in the paper rock scissors game of classes. barbarian(rock) smashes wizard (scissors), mystc(paper) can cover barbaian(rock), but can get wrecked by a wizard(scissors)
if we ever fight something immune to psychic damage(most likely of the Dms creation) a mystic will probably be able to do nothing where a wizard fighting something immune to fire just switches to ice magic.

but long story short i feel the mystic can do things that are slightly stronger then normal at low level, but instead of scaling up the get more things they can do as they level going from i can do 2 things the best in the party, to i can do a little-bit of everything at a moderate quality, but anyone else who can do it can do it better if they at least try.
its actually pretty well balanced despite how it seems which is its point/ flavor, it feels and looks powerful, but everyone else can be just as powerful