Thoughts on adjusting Summoning Groups of Creatures

[Mith]

Hello,

I am a new to DMing since my table has a rotating DM system, and I only had time to run a quick adventure before it became better for the other DMs to take over, so I do not have as much system mastery to say where the flaws of 5E are for myself, and so usually go through the Playground for a collective analysis.

One thing I noticed was people pointing out that multiple of lower CR creatures can cause a lot of problems like a pixie swarm and a wolf pack for example. Multiple monsters increase the effectiveness of the spell in some situations that make them superior options to a single creature summon, even if the single creature is stronger than a single monster of the group summons.

My idea that I want to run by the playground is to use the tool suggested by the DMG when building an encounter with multiple enemies, the encounter multiplier table (DMG Pg. 82).

If one adjusts the summons option using the Encounter multiplier for the summons, could that remove some of the problems with the spells?

[MaxWilson]

If one adjusts the summons option using the Encounter multiplier for the summons, could that remove some of the problems with the spells?

Yes, partially. The encounter multipliers won't work quite right because there are PCs in the fight in addition to the monsters--so you might want to count the PCs as well as just the monsters. E.g. two wolves will do three as much damage before dying as one wolf, but four PCs plus two wolves will not do three times as much damage as four PCs plus one wolf.

Still, the idea is sound in principle. You could do it that way.

But it might be simpler just to flatly reduce the numbers: 4 CR 1/4s, 3 CR 1/2s, 2 CR 1s, or 1 CR 2.

[Kryx]

Here is my houserule on the topic:

Summoned creatures who cast spells use the spell slots of the caster. The lower tier ones also have CR 1/2 reduce to 3 creatures and CR 1/4 reduced to 6 creatures. See http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?470955-Conjure-Spells-in-5E&p=20267660#post20267660

[Mith]

I had forgotten about that thread. Guess that answers my question there.

Thanks!

[BW022]

I find that the problem tends to sort itself out.

First, it is concentration. Meaning you keep lots of critters around, they mean you can't have any other spells up.

Second, lots of creatures if impractical in most dungeons, cities, castles, buildings, etc. The block hallways, passages, other can't climb ladders, etc. They tend to block PCs just as much as players.

Third, most opponents at those levels can either kill two a round, or just ignore them. At best the spell turns into an area control.

Forth, any opponent with area effects can typically destroy the entire group.

Fifth, most players will tend to see such a spell as a nerf spell -- like darkness, fog cloud, etc. It basically just delays the combat a few rounds until the opponents the summoned 'swarm' or turns the combat into a ranged fight. Players tend to dislike this also as it means melee characters end up wasting turns doing nothing because walls of wolves are in the way. If the party doesn't have any melee characters... fine... the monster is going to hack through these and it is just buying time for PCs with ranged attacks.

Sixth, by the time you get high enough slots to get a 'swarm' of lesser CR creatures... there are far better 5th or 7th-level spells for crowd control.

You can do a few things to speed up their initiative and attacks. For example, pre-roll or randomize a set of d20+attack mod and damage rolls on paper and the player just read off the PC and damage -- or just 1 in 3 hits each round.

[SharkForce]

8 wolves are not a huge problem, though it is a very strong summoning option (minor nerf is not a bad idea, but probably not a requirement either). 8 pixies are a problem, mostly because they should be higher CR than they are. this particular problem has much less to do with the power of summoning a bunch of low CR creatures (although that is a good option) than it has to do with pixies being assigned a really stupid CR, partly because the CR system doesn't really account for spells that don't either directly deal damage or give you higher numbers, and probably also partly because they assumed that the pixies wouldn't really be fighting you (which is dumb, because CR is supposed to measure their challenge if they are fighting you, not the probability that they will fight you).

as an extreme example of how the CR system doesn't account for certain things very well, if you had a creature with 1 HP, 9 AC, no damaging attacks, blindsight, truesight, and tremorsense in a 500 foot radius, a perception bonus of +50, and the ability to cast power word kill 10 times per round as an at-will ability, it would have a CR of 0, because it technically does not deal any damage.

[Leith]

as an extreme example of how the CR system doesn't account for certain things very well, if you had a creature with 1 HP, 9 AC, no damaging attacks, blindsight, truesight, and tremorsense in a 500 foot radius, a perception bonus of +50, and the ability to cast power word kill 10 times per round as an at-will ability, it would have a CR of 0, because it technically does not deal any damage.

I feel like you're not grasping what the CR system is for. Senses and non damaging/buff abilities don't factor in because they're situational. Same reason a monster needs multiple damage resistances or a common damage resist before it starts to affect their challenge. CR is just a guideline based on how difficult something is to kill and how good it is at killing, not an end-all-be-all.

Also Pixies aren't dangerous. They're low hp, have no attacks (yes, they can still do damage but very little) and most of their spells are concentration. Summoning 8 of them can seriously screw with an encounter (non-combat ones too) but 3rd through 5th level spells do have a tendency to do that. It's what their for.
It is of course better to summon multiples, but that's not always useful. At their best Conjure _____ spells are more useful than a fireball but not more dangerous. I think if one were going to change how these spells regulate the number of creatures that are summoned you should remember that players at the levels where these spells are a factor are supposed to have abilities and spells that break encounters. Re-balance it however you want but don't take that away from them just 'cause the spell scales in a weird way.

[Goober4473]

Also Pixies aren't dangerous. They're low hp, have no attacks (yes, they can still do damage but very little) and most of their spells are concentration. Summoning 8 of them can seriously screw with an encounter (non-combat ones too) but 3rd through 5th level spells do have a tendency to do that. It's what their for.

At the very least, each Pixie can cast polymorph and/or confusion, each a 4th level spell. That alone strikes me as unfair. The drawback of course is that the pixies can die very easily, but you can leave them somewhere safe pretty easily in the case of polymorph, and it doesn't feel like enough of a drawback to justify getting eight-sixteen times the 4th level spells, and Pixies can do a lot more with fly, dispel magic, detect thoughts, scouting while invisible, etc.

Summoning one might be okay, but even then it seems like it's too much. I'm for the Adventurer's League rule of banning it.

Interestingly, raising the CR of a Pixie actually makes it more powerful on its own, since polymorph is limited by the level/CR of the target. A Pixie with no changes other than raising it to CR 1 could polymorph itself into a dire wolf, for instance.

[SharkForce]

I feel like you're not grasping what the CR system is for. Senses and non damaging/buff abilities don't factor in because they're situational. Same reason a monster needs multiple damage resistances or a common damage resist before it starts to affect their challenge. CR is just a guideline based on how difficult something is to kill and how good it is at killing, not an end-all-be-all.

Also Pixies aren't dangerous. They're low hp, have no attacks (yes, they can still do damage but very little) and most of their spells are concentration. Summoning 8 of them can seriously screw with an encounter (non-combat ones too) but 3rd through 5th level spells do have a tendency to do that. It's what their for.
It is of course better to summon multiples, but that's not always useful. At their best Conjure _____ spells are more useful than a fireball but not more dangerous. I think if one were going to change how these spells regulate the number of creatures that are summoned you should remember that players at the levels where these spells are a factor are supposed to have abilities and spells that break encounters. Re-balance it however you want but don't take that away from them just 'cause the spell scales in a weird way.

well, considering power word kill makes the 0 CR creature I pointed out rather good at killing and is not accounted for, even if it is just a measure of kill difficulty and capability (which is both stupid because that's a bad thing to measure, and nonsensical as a claim considering the CR system does account for a variety of *abilities* that make you better at fighting without necessarily making you better at killing, and accounts for non-damaging effects with save DCs, and accounts for a variety of situational things like resistance to magic weapons which can easily do absolutely nothing at all, but simply disregards spells entirely), I'd say I'm doing fine.

and pixies are bloody dangerous if they're fighting you, which is the only time their CR should come into play. they do have damage (phantasmal force), though it is largely unaccounted for, and they are fully capable of *defeating* a party even if they don't kill the party. they are far more impressive in a fight than other equivalent CR creatures, their defenses add up to make them far tougher than 1 HP would suggest, and their spells (concentration or otherwise) can potentially end an encounter instantly.

[MaxWilson]

Also Pixies aren't dangerous. They're low hp, have no attacks (yes, they can still do damage but very little) and most of their spells are concentration. Summoning 8 of them can seriously screw with an encounter (non-combat ones too) but 3rd through 5th level spells do have a tendency to do that. It's what their for.
It is of course better to summon multiples, but that's not always useful. At their best Conjure _____ spells are more useful than a fireball but not more dangerous. I think if one were going to change how these spells regulate the number of creatures that are summoned you should remember that players at the levels where these spells are a factor are supposed to have abilities and spells that break encounters. Re-balance it however you want but don't take that away from them just 'cause the spell scales in a weird way.

Pixies should be CR 2, not CR 1/4. At CR 1/4 the DMG predicts that four 5th level PCs can handle 7.5 "Easy" fights per day with five orcs and five pixies. In reality, if two pixies cast Entangle and two pixies cast Confusion and one pixie casts Polymorph on the beefiest-looking fighter (Barbarian or Sharpshooter), the orcs may or may not TPK the party, but they'll definitely hurt them enough that they will never be able to do it seven and a half times. I'd be surprised if the average party managed to do it more than twice.

If you re-rate the Pixie at CR 2, then the DMG predicts that the PCs should be able to handle such a fight twice before resting, which seems much closer to accurate.

Pixies have somewhat better combat spells than the Dryad, and they have excellent survivability due to Stealth +7, flight, relatively high AC, and invisibility. Don't let the low HP fool you.

Conclusion: Pixies should be CR 2.

Other conclusion: it's time for my players to fight some pixies and orcs.

[RickAllison]

well, considering power word kill makes the 0 CR creature I pointed out rather good at killing and is not accounted for, even if it is just a measure of kill difficulty and capability (which is both stupid because that's a bad thing to measure, and nonsensical as a claim considering the CR system does account for a variety of *abilities* that make you better at fighting without necessarily making you better at killing, and accounts for non-damaging effects with save DCs, and accounts for a variety of situational things like resistance to magic weapons which can easily do absolutely nothing at all, but simply disregards spells entirely), I'd say I'm doing fine.

and pixies are bloody dangerous if they're fighting you, which is the only time their CR should come into play. they do have damage (phantasmal force), though it is largely unaccounted for, and they are fully capable of *defeating* a party even if they don't kill the party. they are far more impressive in a fight than other equivalent CR creatures, their defenses add up to make them far tougher than 1 HP would suggest, and their spells (concentration or otherwise) can potentially end an encounter instantly.

Actually, spells like PWK are accounted for with the additional aspects, which award effective damage, hp, and AC. In the example of the PWKer, it would be treated as having 100 damage per round (since that is the closest approximation of what is happening). So assuming 8s down the line (so -4 to offensive CR) and a defensive CR of 0, that would still leave the PWKer at 6 CR.

[SharkForce]

Actually, spells like PWK are accounted for with the additional aspects, which award effective damage, hp, and AC. In the example of the PWKer, it would be treated as having 100 damage per round (since that is the closest approximation of what is happening). So assuming 8s down the line (so -4 to offensive CR) and a defensive CR of 0, that would still leave the PWKer at 6 CR.

nope.

otherwise sleep would be accounted for in the pixie CR. power word kill doesn't do damage. it doesn't have a save. it doesn't increase attributes. therefore, it is not accounted for at all.

[RickAllison]

nope.

otherwise sleep would be accounted for in the pixie CR. power word kill doesn't do damage. it doesn't have a save. it doesn't increase attributes. therefore, it is not accounted for at all.

Dude, cut the knee-jerk reactions and re-read the chapter in the DMG on calculating CR. It notes in the section for special traits and spellcasting that some effects must be accounted for differently.

In all honesty, Sleep only isn't accounted for because the writers were thinking of it as a temporarily debilitating effect like Hold Person rather than actually taking someone out of the fight. Heck, if you don't take everyone put then Sleep becomes far less effective. If anything, it should have a level breakpoint where it stops dealing effective DPR with it (similar to Flightt+ranged attacks).

[MrStabby]

Without doubt more low level CR summons are better. Whether creatures or animate objects or whatever.

In terms of getting a little more balance there are a few options.

1) As mentioned use more area of effect spells
2) Use more ranged attacks. Being able to to thin out numbers before the swarm arrives is good
3) Use defensive buffs. Against enemies that are struggling to hit an increase in AC has more effect than against enemies that hit easily.
4) Have encounters that are better at forcing concentration saves against casters. This doesn't have to be damage - remember the PHB example of a wave breaking over the caster. This is more an anti-summon approach generally than an anti swarm thing.

If your basic encounter is 6-8 enemies who roll normally for initiative and have a range of 5 ft and fight in the open or a medium room then your swarm of summons will tend to be very, very powerful.

[SharkForce]

Dude, cut the knee-jerk reactions and re-read the chapter in the DMG on calculating CR. It notes in the section for special traits and spellcasting that some effects must be accounted for differently.

In all honesty, Sleep only isn't accounted for because the writers were thinking of it as a temporarily debilitating effect like Hold Person rather than actually taking someone out of the fight. Heck, if you don't take everyone put then Sleep becomes far less effective. If anything, it should have a level breakpoint where it stops dealing effective DPR with it (similar to Flightt+ranged attacks).

for a creature with a pixie's CR, sleep stands a very realistic chance of just ending the fight with the pixie winning. especially if the party is not at full HP when they fight. a couple of pixies against a level 1 party have a very good chance of one-shotting the party from stealth.

and telling us that things will need to be accounted for differently doesn't do a damned thing to tell us *how* to account for it. and we can clearly see in the pixie CR that they sure as hell *didn't* account for sleep in the slightest, and definitely not the way you're describing, because if they had accounted for it their offensive CR would assume 5d8 damage in one round and 1d6 damage in the other two rounds, and there is not a snowball's chance in hell their CR would be as absurdly low as it is now.

i don't think CR 2 is right for pixies (CR 1 is probably more accurate), but their official CR is just dead wrong.

[RickAllison]

for a creature with a pixie's CR, sleep stands a very realistic chance of just ending the fight with the pixie winning. especially if the party is not at full HP when they fight. a couple of pixies against a level 1 party have a very good chance of one-shotting the party from stealth.

and telling us that things will need to be accounted for differently doesn't do a damned thing to tell us *how* to account for it. and we can clearly see in the pixie CR that they sure as hell *didn't* account for sleep in the slightest, and definitely not the way you're describing, because if they had accounted for it their offensive CR would assume 5d8 damage in one round and 1d6 damage in the other two rounds, and there is not a snowball's chance in hell their CR would be as absurdly low as it is now.

i don't think CR 2 is right for pixies (CR 1 is probably more accurate), but their official CR is just dead wrong.

Oh I don't doubt that they miscalculated the Pixie, but the problem with the Pixie is that sleep can suddenly go from encounter-ending to ineffective.

By my calculations, CR 1 is the right level for when Sleep is a pertinent threat for PCs. Around level 5, Sleep is not sufficient to take down a full average PC and is far less effective at disabling multiple wounded ones due to increased health, so it drops down to CR 1/2.

After running the numbers some more, the only way I see them giving it CR 1/4 is if they forgot it had Phantasmal Force. With that spell, it deals a little damage but more importantly it qualifies for having flight+ranged offense, boosting its CR to 1/2 at the lowest.

So basically, CR 1/2 is a very justified minimum, while CR 1 is possible. It certainly does reduce the effectiveness of the Pixie Swarm when it is cut in half...

[SharkForce]

the thing with sleep is that it still gives them the chance to use it *after* the party has taken some damage. the sleep spell means that instead of the fight ending for you when the whole party is at 0 HP, it can end once the party is at low HP.

[Leith]

CR is not about who can "defeat" who. It's about kill or be killed and pixies suck at that because unless they polymorph themselves they can do, at most, 1d6 damage every round. They may be very potent as a summoned creature but that spell only lasts for an hour and is concentration, so it's not adventure breaking, just encounter breaking. Which it is meant to be.

Also, @MaxWilson, 5 pixies will automatically die to a single fireball. Most CR 1/4 creatures will. Being invisible, having a high AC and Dex save won't help because the stupid faerie has 1hp. Hell the orcs will probably die too.

[MaxWilson]

CR is not about who can "defeat" who. It's about kill or be killed and pixies suck at that because unless they polymorph themselves they can do, at most, 1d6 damage every round. They may be very potent as a summoned creature but that spell only lasts for an hour and is concentration, so it's not adventure breaking, just encounter breaking. Which it is meant to be.

Also, @MaxWilson, 5 pixies will automatically die to a single fireball. Most CR 1/4 creatures will. Being invisible, having a high AC and Dex save won't help because the stupid faerie has 1hp. ---- the orcs will probably die too.

Yes, if they are all within 40' of each other, and you know where to throw the Fireball, and they're not Polymorphed at the time.

You're crossing a stream in the woods when you hear grunting sounds, and orcs emerge on both sides of the stream (60' across at the treeline) and demand tribute. You refuse and draw your weapons*. Now you're being attacked by five orcs in two groups of two and three orcs respectively. There might be pixies somewhere around here too--the previous groups of orcs all had pixies. Where do you throw the Fireball?

And, at 5th level, can you afford to throw seven Fireballs today to deal with all these "easy" pixies and orcs? DMG says you should be able to deal with seven groups of (five orcs + five pixies) before needing a rest. Very few players would be able to do that successfully. But if you reclassify the pixies as CR 2, then the DMG says you should only need to be able to deal with two groups, which is more plausible. Ergo, CR 1/4 is the wrong rating.

* Or you can just pay the tribute, but then CR doesn't matter.

[SharkForce]

CR is not about who can "defeat" who. It's about kill or be killed and pixies suck at that because unless they polymorph themselves they can do, at most, 1d6 damage every round. They may be very potent as a summoned creature but that spell only lasts for an hour and is concentration, so it's not adventure breaking, just encounter breaking. Which it is meant to be.

nope.

in the DMG, when discussing challenge rating it talks about challenging the characters, and threatening the characters, but when designing a monster the rules even tell you straight up that if the creature relies on saving throws more than damaging attacks, you use the save DC to figure out challenge rating. never once it describe challenge rating as a measure of killing power alone.

in the monster manual, in the entry on page 9 talking about challenge rating it says it measures the creature's ability to *threaten* the party. again, killing power is never described as being what challenge rating measures. the section below on XP discusses the fact that you get the XP for *defeating* (not killing) monsters, and allows for neutralizing monsters through other means to award XP as well.

not one definition of challenge rating or passage describing challenge rating that i could find states that it is a measure of killing power. they talk about threat, challenge, difficulty, defeating, neutralizing, but never does it say that it only measures their killing power and resistance to being killed (though those can and do certainly factor into the equation, since that is often the way monsters are defeated or neutralized, and how they challenge or threaten the characters).

pixies can challenge you far more than appropriate for their CR, are far more threatening than their CR would suggest, and are much harder to defeat than their CR would suggest. the CR of a pixie is *not* appropriate for their ability to threaten and challenge PCs, and resist defeat or neutralization by them.

*if* you have an AoE spell and *if* the pixies are all standing right next to each other and *if* they're in range and *if* you know their location, you can kill them. that's a whole hell of a lot of "if" when we're talking about creatures that like to do their own thing, are naturally invisible, have a high stealth modifier, can find cover and concealment ridiculously easily, and can fly to reach difficult-to-find locations. their CR is wrong. it is wrong when you calculate it using the DMG calculations (they measure up somewhere between 1/2 and 1 assuming you completely disregard all their spells except for phantasmal force - so that's not factoring in sleep, polymorph, entangle, or confusion in the slightest). it is very evidently wrong when you see that DMs react with a bit of grumbling when you summon 8 wolves about how powerful summoning is but go completely bonkers when you suggest that you're going to summon 8 pixies and immediately start looking for ways to deny it, and it is evidently wrong when you start to examine what an encounter between a group of characters and a group of enemies that include pixies actually looks like compared to what the encounter building guidelines tells us it *should* look like.