The Wizard made to fight other Wizards

[pfctanman]

So This is my first time posting on the forum, but I wanted to post a small guide to the character I'm making for a campaign coming up and was looking for any advice, suggestions, or even comments on the build.

As stated, this concept relies on the "Wizard optimized to fight other spell casters."

So to start off Class wise Im making a Wizard who will pick up Abjuration as an Arcane tradition at 2nd Level, The reason being when you cast an abjuration spell you get a protective ward that surrounds you and can at later levels extend to others.

Now this is well and dandy, but Wizards are extremely squishy, Many would say to combat this one should multi-class into one with armor proficiency, but I don't like the idea of multi-classing and instead prefer remaining with a single class, so I suggest picking Mountain Dwarf as the Race due to their natural proficiency with Light and Medium Armor.

Now I know many people would be like, "But Mountain Dwarfs have no attributes that prepare them as good wizards." This is well and true, but Wearing this medium armor and putting 14 into dex, you get an AC of 16 Easily, without wasting a spell slot for mage armor as well.

So using the standard array and plugging in my bonuses, I get
10 Strength
14 Dex
15 Constitution
15 Intelligence
13 Wisdom
10 Charisma

As you can see I'm not strong in one sole area, and spread thin due to it, but this build isnt about dealing damage, it pushing the bounds on spell-casters squishiness and being able to stand their ground and protect others like Abjurers are supposed to do.

Anyways please tell me what you think or if any other clarification is needed.

[ES Curse]

Tanking doesn't win fights vs Wizards. You need to get the first strike and work on shutting down their options. A V.Human DEX Bladesinger with Mage Slayer and the Stealth skill could work wonders. Booming Blade is a pretty effective way to make a wizard stay still.

[pfctanman]

Hm That makes sense, However Abjuration spells include such as Dispel and Counter Spell, as well as sheild, do such reactions while tanking make other wizards well, useless or limited in their abilities?

[ES Curse]

They could work, and are still worth taking, but those 3rd level spells will run out. I would use them early so you have the chance to get in and land Booming Blade. Even if he can pass concentration saves from the original hit, the Booming Blade effect will force him to make another save if he moves at all. With Mage Slayer, you are able to keep him from casting spells safely while up close, which is what you want.

[Specter]

Dump Mountain Dwarf, forget about armor proficiencies. Most spellcasters won't use attack rolls against you. Your best bet for more HP is Fire Genasi or Rock Gnome, since both boost CON and INT. Intelligence must always be on top shape because Counterspell and Dispel Magic rely on it.

As an Abjurer, you should be glad you need to cast Mage Armor; it fuels your Ward, which gives HP similar to a fighter's. Any other abjuration too.

You yourself shouldn't rely on attacks either, but mainly on save spells that take your targets out of the fight or restrain them

If, however, you're not set on Wizard, go Eldritch Knight. With Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Slayer and Resilient (CON), few things will stop you from ripping mage heads.

[pfctanman]

Got it, Thanks guys

[Aaron Underhand]

As a test how well does the character do against a 'standard wizard'?

This is the character I intended as a wizard for a party with no arcane casters (end up playing different character so this is a theoretical build, an example of the sort of wizard you might encounter). PHB only character...

High Elf. starting St 8, Dx 16, Con 14. Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8 with Stealth and Perception

Level 1 - Using Longbow and Sleep.... A non-elf caster in the backfield might call forth a sleep...
Level 5 - Now a Diviner (Portent), with ALERT feat, Fireball, Hold Person and Invisibility... A party vs party encounter might call forth Fireball, and if it goes off you might find you've failed your save as the opposing caster type... If not then the hold person next round will be the failed save..
Level 11 - Int 18... Disintegrate with a failed save... Wall of Stone, Animate Objects - though by this level you should already be playing 'scry and die' as this character can have Arcane Eye, Clairvoyance or Detect Thoughts operating all day.
Level 16 - Int 20 and Lucky ... Wizards are breaking encounters at this level - but for straight Wizard vs Wizard you have Feeblemind with the Portent
Level 17 and above - Foresight!

[SharkForce]

easier to just go warlock and cast darkness while being able to see fine thanks to devil's sight. you will wreck pretty much any wizard with that strategy.

[gfishfunk]

I played nearly the exact character: Mountain Dwarf Abjuration Wizard and I was able to shut down the majority of the output of a Lich in his lair using counterspell and burning lower level slots to protect myself and my teammates.

So, it works.

Several considerations:

1. Its not FUN, really. All of your output is focused on action denial. You don't DO anything but you prevent others from DOING things.

2. Counterspell will generally take your highest slot. You will likely have to cast the spell at a level equal to that of the enemy that you are countering.

3. The fun I did have came through RPing things.

4. You can do moderate - but not great - damage through hitting stuff with your axe, welding it two handed. Good for henchmen, bad for big guys.

[smcmike]

Abjuration wizard is clearly the best wizard for fighting other spellcasters, but other classes just do it better.

Wizards don't have Silence. Silence + grapple = useless spellcaster. I'm not sure if there is a better way to reliably shut a spellcaster down.

Abjuration is good for the bonus to Counterspell and dispel magic. You can get half that bonus from Bard, in addition to access to silence and countercharm and the ability to grapple like a boss, if you like that sort of thing.

[Millstone85]

This is the sort of character a friend of mine is currently trying to create. She also wants the character to have some martial prowess. I told her that my best guess was the bladesinger subclass with the Mage Slayer feat. I am glad it already got mentioned in this thread.


Wizards don't have Silence.Ouch, she will not like this. Perhaps I should look into your bard idea.

[RulesJD]

Requirements:

1. A way to add Proficiency to (or at least half) proficiency to Counterspell/Dispel.

2. Required Spells:

Counterspell
Dispel
Greater Invisibility
Contingency
Feeblemind

3. Other good spells:

Silence
Slow
Find Familiar
Bestow Curse
Antimagic Field

Lore Bards or Abjuration Wizards are pretty much your only choice.

[Easy_Lee]

Mage Slayer does not actually help one fight wizards much. The reaction attack occurs after the spell is cast, and nothing is stopping casters from just teleporting away. As others have said, you want to cast silence or anti-magic field, then hold the target in place. Alternatively, you want to get the first hit and lock down the caster with constitution saves, as casters tend to have low Con.

Lord Bard with athletics expertise and Shadow Monk / Assassin are, most likely, the best bets.

[RulesJD]

Mage Slayer does not actually help one fight wizards much. The reaction attack occurs after the spell is cast, and nothing is stopping casters from just teleporting away. As others have said, you want to cast silence or anti-magic field, then hold the target in place. Alternatively, you want to get the first hit and lock down the caster with constitution saves, as casters tend to have low Con.

Lord Bard with athletics expertise and Shadow Monk / Assassin are, most likely, the best bets.

Keep in mind that relying on Silence to defeat a caster only really works at lower levels. At higher levels the Wizard will have a Simulacrum up (I should add that to the Required list because it maaaaasively increases your Counterspell utility) so it can just walk out of the Silence and Dispel it.

Also, Hypnotic Pattern doesn't require Verbal components. Hope your grappler has a good Wisdom save (Monk/Rogues do not get proficiency in it naturally) because when they fail it the Wizard can just walk away.

[Easy_Lee]

Keep in mind that relying on Silence to defeat a caster only really works at lower levels. At higher levels the Wizard will have a Simulacrum up (I should add that to the Required list because it maaaaasively increases your Counterspell utility) so it can just walk out of the Silence and Dispel it.

Also, Hypnotic Pattern doesn't require Verbal components. Hope your grappler has a good Wisdom save (Monk/Rogues do not get proficiency in it naturally) because when they fail it the Wizard can just walk away.

Hence the stunlock as a ninja (multiple stunning strikes possible per round) or use of anti-magic and expertise grappling as a bard. These are solid counters.

[RulesJD]

Hence the stunlock as a ninja (multiple stunning strikes possible per round) or use of anti-magic and expertise grappling as a bard. These are solid counters.

A lot of it depends on whether the enemy Wizard is treated as a player character, aka can they take Resiliency (Con) or Warcaster.

Another Desirable, but not required, feature for an anti-caster Wizard is to dip 2 levels into Fighter. The ability to Action Surge after the enemy Wizard uses it's Counterspell is colossally powerful, especially when combined with a Simulacrum.

[Vogonjeltz]

So using the standard array and plugging in my bonuses, I get
10 Strength
14 Dex
15 Constitution
15 Intelligence
13 Wisdom
10 Charisma

Your Wisdom or your Constitution score is too high if you used standard array and had +2 to con they'd both have started at 13, which is impossible.

I think it's a clever idea for getting a more durable Wizard who doesn't have to use spell slots as often for protection.


Dump Mountain Dwarf, forget about armor proficiencies. Most spellcasters won't use attack rolls against you. Your best bet for more HP is Fire Genasi or Rock Gnome, since both boost CON and INT. Intelligence must always be on top shape because Counterspell and Dispel Magic rely on it.

I disagree, most of the best harmful spells still require an attack roll. The Abjuration side of things is quite handy for working on everything else (shield counters the auto-hit magic missiles; counterspell stops anything else).

The goal of the abjurer being to win a battle of attrition against an enemy spellcaster, shutting them down so that they can't impose negative effects on the party.


easier to just go warlock and cast darkness while being able to see fine thanks to devil's sight. you will wreck pretty much any wizard with that strategy.

This ploy only comes online at level 3; It hinders allies as much as it helps the Warlock personally; A warlock only gets 2 spell slots at the time Counterspell has come online, in which case an enemy spellcaster could counterspell (or Daylight) both castings of Darkness and still have room to spare, while the Warlock has been tapped out.

Sure, the Warlock can get those spell slots back after a short rest, but in a single combat that ability to flex won't help.


Keep in mind that relying on Silence to defeat a caster only really works at lower levels. At higher levels the Wizard will have a Simulacrum up (I should add that to the Required list because it maaaaasively increases your Counterspell utility) so it can just walk out of the Silence and Dispel it.

Also, Hypnotic Pattern doesn't require Verbal components. Hope your grappler has a good Wisdom save (Monk/Rogues do not get proficiency in it naturally) because when they fail it the Wizard can just walk away.

Simulacra aren't durable enough, they'd get cut down by incidental damage. But, even supposing they are useful, there's no specific reason both Wizards couldn't have one of themselves. I'd count the Abjurer's simulacrum as more powerful than a simulacrum of one of the other schools.

[SharkForce]

casting darkness on an enemy caster doesn't hurt your team as much as it hurts you unless you're doing something extremely wrong as a group, or that caster isn't worth the effort of countering.

in exchange for disadvantage on attacks into an area, you have just completely removed their artillery from the fight until they get rid of the darkness. being able to see is absolutely critical for a spellcaster. if you can't see, your options get massively reduced, and you nearly become a commoner with unusually high HP.

[RulesJD]

*snip*
Simulacra aren't durable enough, they'd get cut down by incidental damage. But, even supposing they are useful, there's no specific reason both Wizards couldn't have one of themselves. I'd count the Abjurer's simulacrum as more powerful than a simulacrum of one of the other schools.

Except that the Simulacra would be loaded up with Contingency and the Abjuration ward. Not tanky, but BBEG Simulacra don't need to be.

Your point is exactly why (for higher level anti-spell casters) Simulacrum is a REQUIRED spell now. Without it you're toast.

[Vogonjeltz]

Except that the Simulacra would be loaded up with Contingency and the Abjuration ward. Not tanky, but BBEG Simulacra don't need to be.

Your point is exactly why (for higher level anti-spell casters) Simulacrum is a REQUIRED spell now. Without it you're toast.

Well, it would probably be easier and cheaper to just have minions. My point about the Simulacra was they are so fragile they probably get insta-gibbed round 1, before anyone else goes down. Which, if they've been made using the actual spell (rather than via wish) there's a not insignificant gold cost.

As a DM I'd prefer to have a BBEG use simulacrum to try and take control of a kingdom (Evil Vizier kidnaps the King or a known Lord and creates a copy who they trot out to make pronouncements and grant the Vizier more power/control).

[RulesJD]

13th level Abjuration Wizard with 14 Con should have ~80 health.

That's 40 HP for the Simulacrum.

But...

the Abjuration Ward would add an additional (13*2+5) for 31 more health.

So your Simulacrum is sitting at ~71 HP. More than plenty to survive round 1, especially with Shield spell + Contingency + Abjuration Wizard throwing out their Ward as well.

[Vogonjeltz]

13th level Abjuration Wizard with 14 Con should have ~80 health.

That's 40 HP for the Simulacrum.

But...

the Abjuration Ward would add an additional (13*2+5) for 31 more health.

So your Simulacrum is sitting at ~71 HP. More than plenty to survive round 1, especially with Shield spell + Contingency + Abjuration Wizard throwing out their Ward as well.

Fair enough, that does cost the Sim a non-renewable spell slot, however. So they'd be down at least 2 spell slots (including their highest level one) plus if they used contingency that's another 2 spell slots down, so at best they'd have:

2 1st (assuming contingency used a 1st level spell (Shield perhaps?) and they had to cast a 1st for abjuration ward), 3 2nd, 3 3rd, 3 4th, and 2 5th

[djreynolds]

So This is my first time posting on the forum, but I wanted to post a small guide to the character I'm making for a campaign coming up and was looking for any advice, suggestions, or even comments on the build.

As stated, this concept relies on the "Wizard optimized to fight other spell casters."

So to start off Class wise Im making a Wizard who will pick up Abjuration as an Arcane tradition at 2nd Level, The reason being when you cast an abjuration spell you get a protective ward that surrounds you and can at later levels extend to others.

Now this is well and dandy, but Wizards are extremely squishy, Many would say to combat this one should multi-class into one with armor proficiency, but I don't like the idea of multi-classing and instead prefer remaining with a single class, so I suggest picking Mountain Dwarf as the Race due to their natural proficiency with Light and Medium Armor.

Now I know many people would be like, "But Mountain Dwarfs have no attributes that prepare them as good wizards." This is well and true, but Wearing this medium armor and putting 14 into dex, you get an AC of 16 Easily, without wasting a spell slot for mage armor as well.

So using the standard array and plugging in my bonuses, I get
10 Strength
14 Dex
15 Constitution
15 Intelligence
13 Wisdom
10 Charisma

As you can see I'm not strong in one sole area, and spread thin due to it, but this build isnt about dealing damage, it pushing the bounds on spell-casters squishiness and being able to stand their ground and protect others like Abjurers are supposed to do.

Anyways please tell me what you think or if any other clarification is needed.

This is great, if you are not multiclassing and going straight wizard. The level 14 ability is the big one, just grab and prepare as many reaction spells as necessary. But also remember that a dwarf can dump strength and wear heavy armor, you won't get a shield by selecting it, heavily armored, but you can leave your dex at 10 and throw that into wisdom. AC 18 with plate armor.

You get 5asi/feat, you could swing heavily armored but it could be expensive if you want 20s in int and con.

[TheFlyingCleric]

Mage Slayer does not actually help one fight wizards much. The reaction attack occurs after the spell is cast, and nothing is stopping casters from just teleporting away. As others have said, you want to cast silence or anti-magic field, then hold the target in place. Alternatively, you want to get the first hit and lock down the caster with constitution saves, as casters tend to have low Con.

Lord Bard with athletics expertise and Shadow Monk / Assassin are, most likely, the best bets.

I disagree. Imposing disadvantage on their Concentration saves is pretty big. And most casters will not be expecting the reaction attack.
The advantage to your saves is also very helpful if you can get close to them; it means their only option is to run away. They may be able to misty step out, but they will be restricted to cantrips for their main action afterwards.

It is pretty redundant if you're an 14th level Abjurer though.

[RulesJD]

Fair enough, that does cost the Sim a non-renewable spell slot, however. So they'd be down at least 2 spell slots (including their highest level one) plus if they used contingency that's another 2 spell slots down, so at best they'd have:

2 1st (assuming contingency used a 1st level spell (Shield perhaps?) and they had to cast a 1st for abjuration ward), 3 2nd, 3 3rd, 3 4th, and 2 5th

I do the Contingency before Simulacrum. No real guidance on whether the Simulacrum is created with spell effects on it or not. If not, I'm okay with burning Contingency + Greater Invis (to prevent Counterspells). Abjuration Ward can be recharged through ritual casting of Alarm so good to go for that (albeit can take a while).

[Sir cryosin]

Abjuration wizard is clearly the best wizard for fighting other spellcasters, but other classes just do it better.

Wizards don't have Silence. Silence + grapple = useless spellcaster. I'm not sure if there is a better way to reliably shut a spellcaster down.

Abjuration is good for the bonus to Counterspell and dispel magic. You can get half that bonus from Bard, in addition to access to silence and countercharm and the ability to grapple like a boss, if you like that sort of thing.

I played a anticaster shadow monk cast silent then run up bonus action attack for stunning strike. Then next turn grapple.

[Sir cryosin]

This is the sort of character a friend of mine is currently trying to create. She also wants the character to have some martial prowess. I told her that my best guess was the bladesinger subclass with the Mage Slayer feat. I am glad it already got mentioned in this thread.

Ouch, she will not like this. Perhaps I should look into your bard idea.

Take ritual caster feat and pick it up there.

[Socratov]

In my opinion, as a wizard you win a wizard duel as follows:


win initiative
use disabling effects, and make sure they stick.
have counterspells at the ready for contingency effects
use cantrips or direct damage to kill said wizard.
make sure he is really, really, dead by disintegrating his body and dispersing the ashes, though keep a keepsake to be able to proof you killed him
cash in the reward.
receive orders for next target and return to step 1


So, to make step 1 happen: get the alert feat and a high dex (start at 16, get to 20 after you raised main stat to 20) for a +8 t +10 on initiative.

Step 2 relies on the right spell and tacking on disadvantage the right spells will be on both the wizard and sorcerer lists and what's better, the wizard can go all portent on his enemy's ass. This does create the problem that it only works when you roll low. 2 high rolls and this tactic won't work today. The sorcerer can in the mean time heighten his spells, and with the Wild Magic Sorcerer's Bend luck ability you can make damn well sure the enemy fails that save.

Step 3 is thus: get Counterspell, use it at your highest level as possible, also get some intelligence for those arcana checks if the spell lvl is not enough.

Step 4-7 speak for themselves.

Attribute as follows:

1st: main casting stat to pump that DC
2nd: dex for those juicy initiative bonuses
3rd: con to maintain concentration for whatever reason. Also Con is IMO always at least 3rd priority if not higher.
4th: get some points into int, if it's not your main stat.

Bonus points if you are decent at stealth enough to surprise the target

My sample build:

Lt. Col. H. Landa "The Mage Hunter"

"You see, mages will always depend on their magic to get them out of trouble. take that away and what do you have? Exactly: nothing. Only a weak and frail body to burn. "

Half Elf lvl X Wild Magic Sorcerer



Ability
lvl 1
lvl 4
lvl 8
lvl 12
lvl 16


Strength
8
8
8
8
8


Dexterity
15(+1)
16
16
18
20


Constitution
15(+1)
16
16
16
16


Intelligence
10
10
10
10
10


Wisdom
8
8
8
8
8


Charisma
14(+2)
18
20
20
20


"You might propose that I am the very same, but please don't be fooled, underneath this frail exterior, is a body that has been expecially honed to traking those mages and to take them out."
At 1st level the values between brackets are the Half elf bonii
At lvl 19 you can take whatever you want
Class features:
"Being brutally efficient, that's the only way to make sure they are completely and thorougly destroyed. First you take away their magic, then you take away their life and finally you keep a memento to show you killed him. The body will be destroyed beyond recuperation. "
Tides of chaos: for that moment you try to hit a restrained mage, but fail for some reason. it can also be used on ability checks, so if your DM considers initiative an ability check use this for getting advantage on initiative.

Bend Luck: 1d4 on the enemy mage's saving throw, DE-licious!

Metamagic: get quicken and Heighten, the latter for disadvantage on the enemy's savingthrow, the former to make sure you can get right on the damage dealing.

Spells: pick something that either goes for incapacitated or better (thanks to bend luck and heighten you get at least 2 turns of quickened damaging to chew through those HP's. As long as the enemy caster can't cast, obviously disintegrate and gust of wind.

Background: I'd go for urchin, fold in the jealousy of trained wizards, developed powers, get those juicy stealth profs.

Weak points:
"Though thorough I am not perfect or invincible, there are some ways to get away from me. At which point I will need to take drastic measures."

Sure there are holes here: simulacra, private demiplanes, clones, the works. By this time the only way our Hans Landa will need to produce a few scrolls of wish (to escape the negative clause) to negate the demiplane, another to wish away the wizard's magic and a 3rd to take his life, add a 9th lvl counterspell to negate any contingency the wizard has. By then it's take some memento, disperse the body, and get back. But this is only because there are no other options.

[Vogonjeltz]

I do the Contingency before Simulacrum. No real guidance on whether the Simulacrum is created with spell effects on it or not. If not, I'm okay with burning Contingency + Greater Invis (to prevent Counterspells). Abjuration Ward can be recharged through ritual casting of Alarm so good to go for that (albeit can take a while).

I'd think not, ongoing spell effects aren't innate abilities, and the sim doesn't come with anything temporary like equipment either.

[pfctanman]

Played the wizard through part of a campaign, mechanically it works very well, in the regard to defeating magic and protecting my tanks with arcane ward.

[ClintACK]

What are the best ways to defeat Counterspell?

Does Subtle Spell metamagic work -- can you Counterspell a spell that has no components to let you know a spell is being cast?

Are there other tricks, like Greater Invisibility + a spell with no verbal component?

Can you Counterspell a spell that is triggered from a Glyph of Warding? Or from Contingency? Or from a Wand?

Can you Counterspell Counterspell? Can you Counterspell Counterspell *while* you're casting the spell that it's trying to counter?

Are there ways to force a wizard to use his reaction, so that he can't Counterspell until his turn comes around again?

[SharkForce]

subtle metamagic works.

greater invisibility + no verbal components works.

(in general, anything that prevents them from being able to tell that you're casting a spell works).

probably, probably, and probably, but the glyph and the contingency have a very good chance of you not knowing when they're going to be triggered, and possibly not even being aware of them.

you can counterspell counterspell, even while casting your original spell.

there are no ways to force a wizard to use a reaction that i'm aware of, but you can certainly provide motivation (many wizards will respond to an attack that is likely to hit by casting shield, for example). and of course, if they're unable to act or unaware, they can't react to something.