Punching daggers

[Spacehamster]

What price would you guys say is fair for a metal clad leather glove with a dagger blade attached to it? Would be practical for a character that wants to both get use of sneak attack feature and use heavy weapons with the rest of his attacks. Know you can do this by just dropping your finesse weapon and pick up your heavy weapon but always thought it feels a bit silly, with a punching dagger you could already have your 2H weapon out held in one hand, punch the enemy with your bladed glove, then grab hold with both hands of your 2h weapon and go to town. :)

[Ninja_Prawn]

Know you can do this by just dropping your finesse weapon and pick up your heavy weapon

Since this is not giving you any mechanical benefit (and indeed, you can't throw a glove, or wear Gloves of Thievery at the same time, so it's actually hurting you to some degree), I'd say there's no need for an exorbitant cost. Maybe twice the normal cost for a dagger to account for the fact that more effort went into making the gauntlet?

[Spacehamster]

Since this is not giving you any mechanical benefit (and indeed, you can't throw a glove, or wear Gloves of Thievery at the same time, so it's actually hurting you to some degree), I'd say there's no need for an exorbitant cost. Maybe twice the normal cost for a dagger to account for the fact that more effort went into making the gauntlet?

Yeah thought similarly, anything to look cool vs mechanical benefits. ^^

[Joe the Rat]

Essentially like the spiked gauntlet from 3.5, ja?

5gp. 8 at most for the custom build.

[Giant2005]

Since this is not giving you any mechanical benefit

It does have a mechanical benefit. Having an always equipped weapon like that means you don't have to pull it out at the start of combat and can immediately pull out the 2h weapon. It is the difference between having to use one weapon during the first round of combat, or being able to use both.

[Ninja_Prawn]

It does have a mechanical benefit. Having an always equipped weapon like that means you don't have to pull it out at the start of combat and can immediately pull out the 2h weapon. It is the difference between having to use one weapon during the first round of combat, or being able to use both.

I dunno. If someone's wearing a dagger-gauntlet 24/7, how is that any different from walking around with a sword drawn? And it'd surely get in the way of ordinary dungeoneering enough that you'd take it off outside of combat. Or like, detach the blade at least. If a DM is going to fiddle around with exactly how many weapons you can draw in the first round of combat, they can make the same kind of rulings about having this equipped all the time.

[Joe the Rat]

Yeah, outside of combat, that thing should be in a peace-pouch. Or retractable! 10gp and a rock gnome should get you there, but that makes for a blade no longer than the back of your hand.

[Spacehamster]

Yeah, outside of combat, that thing should be in a peace-pouch. Or retractable! 10gp and a rock gnome should get you there, but that makes for a blade no longer than the back of your hand.

Were thinking about taking a background that gives smithing tools so I could make one myself. :)

[Laserlight]

It does have a mechanical benefit. Having an always equipped weapon like that means you don't have to pull it out at the start of combat and can immediately pull out the 2h weapon. It is the difference between having to use one weapon during the first round of combat, or being able to use both.

On the other hand, might well make people wary of you. And you probably won't be able to go around in civilized society with it.

[Slipperychicken]

There are punching-daggers IRL, but you just hold them in a fist instead of wearing them like a glove. I'd just stat them like any other dagger.

[Regitnui]

A katar should be fairly easily kept in a pocket, then slipped over the fingers when battle commences.

[Arkhios]

on a related note, a while back my DM suggested that I could refluff shortsword as katar.

this actually makes a lot of sense.
katar from 3.X did 1d4 damage or 3d4 with a critical (maximum of 12 damage).
now that all weapons crit for only double damage, shortsword being piercing and most importantly - melee only - weapon that deals 1d6 damage or 2d6 with a critical (maximum of 12 damage), they are effectively equal and require no special rulings.

[Sir cryosin]

Someone been playing assassin's creed. Because you want a hidden blade.

[Arkhios]

Someone been playing assassin's creed. Because you want a hidden blade.

Note that punching daggers were a thing in D&D way before the first assassin's creed was released. :smallannoyed:

[N810]

There are punching-daggers IRL, but you just hold them in a fist instead of wearing them like a glove. I'd just stat them like any other dagger.

I found this kind, it has like half of a gauntlet, or maybe just a big hand guard. (indian)
http://oriental-arms.co.il/photos/items/65/003265/ph-0.jpg

also this other one with more of a full gauntlet. (french)
http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/457/media-457589/large.jpg

[Anonymouswizard]

This depends on a few things, one being how it works, and the others being balance and realism.

If you want a Katar just refluff a dagger or a shortsword and away you go.

But you don't, what you want is a gauntlet with a dagger blade on it. This brings up a few questions:
-How big is it? You haven't specified, but as you've said dagger blade it implied 1d4 damage, so it won't be that big.
-Where is the blade located? By the way you've described it I assume it juts out from the back of the hand, so you can hold a weapon with it.
-Is the blade retractable? If so, where is it stored? Mainly because the blade is almost certainly longer than the back of your hand, so it's probably going to have to be held against your forearm if it can be retracted. This is actually a bit problematic stealth-wise, as it'll restrict movement of your wrist slightly and be noticeable if you aren't wearing long sleeves.

Now on the balance and realism side, we meet opposites. Realistically a retractable blade will cost more to make by provide little benefit over one that's just there, and will actually take an action to set up (assuming you don't want it deploying accidentally). I'd eyeball 5gp for the permanently extended blade, and probably 10-15gp for the retractable model without autodeploy (with I'd bump it up to 20gp). I see them being used by most of the population as more of a gladiator's weapon or for noble duels (as it's actually worse than a dagger for most people).

Another idea would be a glove with a 'harness' that allows it to hold a dagger/blade. I'd eyeball about 6gp in total for glove+blade, and it allows you to wander around civilised areas with the glove. It'll take an action to set up, but that's realistic for most non-permanent blade options.

[Arkhios]

I found this kind, it has like half of a gauntlet, or maybe just a big hand guard. (indian)
http://oriental-arms.co.il/photos/items/65/003265/ph-0.jpg

also this other one with more of a full gauntlet. (french)
http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/457/media-457589/large.jpg

The indian version is authentic katar with a hand guard. (here (https://www.rom.on.ca/sites/default/files/imce/909.64.24_1_0.jpg)'s katar without handguard).

The french version I believe is essentially similar to pata (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pata_(sword)) albeit with a much shorter blade.

[N810]

The indian version is authentic katar with a hand guard. (here (https://www.rom.on.ca/sites/default/files/imce/909.64.24_1_0.jpg)'s katar without handguard).

The french version I believe is essentially similar to pata (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pata_(sword)) albeit with a much shorter blade.

I was looking for a dagger version of the Pata, but I couldn't find one.
oh there is also the very bizarre Lantern shield.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rFO6DKmIHjg/U_YcG8iFawI/AAAAAAAAADw/zSnaJcUVS6w/s1600/lantern.jpg

[Slipperychicken]

I found this kind, it has like half of a gauntlet, or maybe just a big hand guard. (indian)
http://oriental-arms.co.il/photos/items/65/003265/ph-0.jpg

also this other one with more of a full gauntlet. (french)
http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/457/media-457589/large.jpg

I was thinking more along these lines:


http://www.trueswords.com/images/prod/xsf_punch_dagger_neck_knife.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b0/7c/90/b07c9028fe991e42f4796007f1b5733d.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Push_dagger_2009_G1.jpg
http://66.media.tumblr.com/292e6b295046c3915a04244284da4bd3/tumblr_inline_nfa7idfxwG1t0lepq.jpg

[Ninja_Prawn]

I was thinking more along these lines:


Pictures!


The problem with those is that they don't give the OP what he wants. He wants to hold a non-finesse weapon in his hands while having a finesse weapon on his wrist, so that he doesn't have to mess around dropping and picking up weapons all the time.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Has a wrist-mounted weapon ever been used historically?

[Mith]

Not on a mass scale that I am aware of, although a few incidents may have existed. Anything I can visualize that would be effective would get in the way of using your hands effectively, and would be pretty obvious, if the purpose is for stealth. A push dagger or katar is the closest that I can think of.

[Madbox]

In regards to this affecting manual dexterity, I don't think it would be worse than a normal gauntlet. If it was a fairly short blade, like maybe 5 cm, it could be mounted on the finger joint, like spiked brass knuckles. And, speaking from experience, that wouldn't be a huge deal for holding something else. I have a replica of one of those WW1 trench knives that had a knuckle duster grip, and I'm pretty sure I could dial a phone or do a few pull ups with it on.

[Mith]

To clarify, I am picturing something braced at the wrist and coming up the back of the hand. To me, that detracts from flexibility.

[Regitnui]

To clarify, I am picturing something braced at the wrist and coming up the back of the hand. To me, that detracts from flexibility.

Your hand can still bend forwards, so it would impede flexibility, but not dramatically. Perhaps not much more than a forearm-mounted shield or buckler.

[Spacehamster]

To clarify, I am picturing something braced at the wrist and coming up the back of the hand. To me, that detracts from flexibility.

It's a fantasy RPGs tho not a reality simulator 2016. ^.^

[Mith]

Your hand can still bend forwards, so it would impede flexibility, but not dramatically. Perhaps not much more than a forearm-mounted shield or buckler.


It's a fantasy RPGs tho not a reality simulator 2016. ^.^

Fair Point.

I just get an "off" feeling from any picture that comes to mind. Plus, I am pretty sure you get a better driving force from a weapon braced at you hand like a dagger handle rather than a brace that wraps around your arm. I would say it's because of force transfer, but the proper technical description isn't coming to mind at the moment. And they could be wrong.

[Markoff Chainey]

D&D combat rules are not designed to reflect reality, but should insipire "coolness". That said, IMO all weapons should be balanced between each other mechanically so that every weapon has a niche for being useful in-game.

When you refluff a dagger, that means you scrap the throwing property and the finesse property... If you just scrap 2 things, why on earth would anybody ever use that thing over a normal dagger?

There a plenty of options how to make up for the loss of those 2 properties...
- up the damage die by one
- give advantage on checks to hide the blade while being searched
- allow a poison reservoir in the fist that can be released at will
- instead of a fixed blade, it could be a hook and a metal chain, after a hit, the target could get restrained
- add +1 initiative
- allow it as a monk weapon
- allow it to count as unarmed strike
...

[Regitnui]

A katar is called a 'punch dagger' for a reason. I'd up the damage dice by one and let it count as a monk weapon, for the simple reason that throwing a punch is a more intuitive and natural attack than slashing or piercing with a dagger, and that trained martial artists (monks) can throw a far more effective punch than other people. Bruce Lee's famous one-inch punch for example. I also know for a fact that even the most basic karate punches start in in the hips.

[Estrillian]

To clarify, I am picturing something braced at the wrist and coming up the back of the hand. To me, that detracts from flexibility.

Like the Mantis claw weapons from Shadows of the Apt? They swing back to lie against the forearm or forward in a clenched grip to be used like a shortwsword.

[Slipperychicken]

What price would you guys say is fair for a metal clad leather glove with a dagger blade attached to it? Would be practical for a character that wants to both get use of sneak attack feature and use heavy weapons with the rest of his attacks.


The problem with those is that they don't give the OP what he wants. He wants to hold a non-finesse weapon in his hands while having a finesse weapon on his wrist, so that he doesn't have to mess around dropping and picking up weapons all the time.

I see. OP just wants to squeeze more damage out of a class that already does plenty, by making a custom item that lets him do something that doesn't make much sense in-universe. It's obviously not about 'cool-factor', but gaming the rules for sneak attack.

If you just wanted to switch between dagger and greatsword, you could do that by drawing or sheathing the dagger on your turn between attacks, but that risks you not getting sneak attack dice on off-rounds when you use the greatsword first, since you want to always use the greatsword after you get the sneak attack. It's not a very high price to pay, and it still lets you do most of what you want.

[N810]

http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/n-nr1m3w/73g69h/products/97/images/304/fm491__87276.1393971484.1280.1280.jpg?c=2 :smallconfused:

[Slipperychicken]

http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/n-nr1m3w/73g69h/products/97/images/304/fm491__87276.1393971484.1280.1280.jpg?c=2 :smallconfused:

Not sure if it's a finesse weapon, maybe if the character is a monk who can use dex for unarmed, but I am otherwise okay with this.

[Anonymouswizard]

To clarify, I am picturing something braced at the wrist and coming up the back of the hand. To me, that detracts from flexibility.

Eh, with a good enough bind I think you could mount the dagger a little further up, but it still wouldn't be a great weapon. It wouldn't even be that great at parrying as the blade would likely come off after a hit or two.


http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/n-nr1m3w/73g69h/products/97/images/304/fm491__87276.1393971484.1280.1280.jpg?c=2 :smallconfused:

That doesn't look practical as a weapon to me, if I was using it as a claw what do the spikes give me? and if I want to use the spikes the claw gets in the way.

I think that, from a realism standpoint, you'd essentially want a glove you can attach a dagger (standard or push knife) to. I don't think that it would really work, especially if you want to get more complex and retain flexibility (there's a reason the Assassin's Creed hidden blade is on the other side of the arm, it's not a battle weapon). I don't think anything with a permanently attached blade is going to be useful though.

This is where I say that Feats only being abilities and talents is a letdown, as this could very easily be covered by an 'unusual gadget' feat. It would probably be a bit weak, but at the cost of at least +1 to an ability score, maybe +2? It seems balanced to me.

[Spacehamster]

I see. OP just wants to squeeze more damage out of a class that already does plenty, by making a custom item that lets him do something that doesn't make much sense in-universe. It's obviously not about 'cool-factor', but gaming the rules for sneak attack.

If you just wanted to switch between dagger and greatsword, you could do that by drawing or sheathing the dagger on your turn between attacks, but that risks you not getting sneak attack dice on off-rounds when you use the greatsword first, since you want to always use the greatsword after you get the sneak attack. It's not a very high price to pay, and it still lets you do most of what you want.

I said nothing about gaming the rules, you can do the exact same thing with just a ordinary dagger and great sword just it forces you to switch/draw weapons left and right which from a combat point of view would look very silly. :)