Jack Mann
2007-06-30, 03:42 AM
I like the idea behind Legacy Weapons. I really do.
I just wish they were more worthwhile.
Seriously, I have yet to find one that's really even as good as a weapon you could purchase. They get a few non-weapon effects, but generally not worth the investment.
Let's look at Unfettered, which I'm using in a game right now.
First, it grows to large size in the hands of any medium creature with powerful build. It's basically a savings on fifty gold, and a kind of cool effect, I guess, if a bit Freudian.
It gives you charging minotaur five times a day, right off the bat (level 5). Not bad, since you generally aren't going to be using it more than once a fight anyway, but if you're a martial adept, you can probably get better charging maneuvers. If you're not a martial adept, there are probably better things you can do with your charge attacks as you go up in level. So, not bad, but it grows less useful pretty fast.
You also get an enlarge effect at level 10. This is pretty good for a goliath or half-giant, who can't be targeted by enlarge person. It's only once per day, but it's at least useful for the really tough fights.
You get a meld into stone effect at 12th. This is good for ambushes, and gives a small bonus to the attack roll of any stone dragon strike you make immediately after leaving the stone.
You get light fortification when you reach level 16. Meh. You should already have heavy fortification on your armor by this point, or at least medium fortification.
19th gives you stoneskin once per day. Damage reduction's nice. Of course, you can always let the wizard cast this on you instead, and it's a lot less likely to be dispelled.
At level 20, you get a Mordenkainen's Sword effect, except that it uses your strength and BAB, with the sword's enhancement bonus. This is... Well, the problem here is that you can do a lot better on your own just by holding the damned thing. I mean, if you intend the sword to be your secondary weapon, okay, but if you wanted this to be your main weapon (and you're paying a fair amount for it, so it should be), you're not going to be using this ability, except when you absolutely need to be using a force weapon.
It also gives you an enhancement bonus to strength. +2 at 9th, +4 at 13th, and +6 at 17th.
The problem here is that strength is almost certainly your main ability. You're going to boost this as often as possible, and generally long before the points they give. You want as much strength as possible, which means ignoring the sword's strength bonus in favor of a higher one from your gauntlets or belt for much of your career. Sure, at some points (when you can't afford the higher strength bonus, or after level 17), you've freed up the belt or gauntlets slot, but other than that, it's just not that useful.
Then its enhancement bonus increases, until it becomes +5 greatsword at level 18.
I don't think Wizards gets this, but almost no one gets more than a +1 enhancement on their weapons, and with good reason. It's easy to get nearly as good an enhancement as the sword gives you from a casting of Greater Magic Weapon. Just as good or better once you get some sort of CL boosters to your friendly caster. Even if there was no such thing as Greater Magic Weapon, weapon special abilities are just generally better than the enhancement bonus.
To add insult to injury, you can't add special abilities to a legacy weapon.
For these abilities, you have to spend 62,350 gold. Now, granted, this is cheaper than a +6 weapon, but you're also taking a -2 to attacks, -4 to reflex, and -12 to hit points. The abilities just generally aren't that great for what you've spent.
I dunno. Maybe some of the other legacy weapons aren't so bad. I haven't looked at all of them. But most of the ones I saw weren't a whole lot better.
To me, a legacy item should be at least as good as what you would normally have. And in the case of legacy weapons, it should be just as good a weapon. If you're using Unfettered, you're probably a melee build. You should not be worse off using Unfettered vs. the sword you would otherwise have had. Unfortunately, there's no real reason for a high level fighter to take the sword as anything other than a secondary weapon, something to sic on the enemy while he pulls out his regular greatsword so that he can do the real damage.
Legacy weapons have cool flavor, but I feel it's the wrong approach to make player pay for flavor.
Am I just crazy? Is it just Unfettered? Or do Legacy weapons need some work?
I just wish they were more worthwhile.
Seriously, I have yet to find one that's really even as good as a weapon you could purchase. They get a few non-weapon effects, but generally not worth the investment.
Let's look at Unfettered, which I'm using in a game right now.
First, it grows to large size in the hands of any medium creature with powerful build. It's basically a savings on fifty gold, and a kind of cool effect, I guess, if a bit Freudian.
It gives you charging minotaur five times a day, right off the bat (level 5). Not bad, since you generally aren't going to be using it more than once a fight anyway, but if you're a martial adept, you can probably get better charging maneuvers. If you're not a martial adept, there are probably better things you can do with your charge attacks as you go up in level. So, not bad, but it grows less useful pretty fast.
You also get an enlarge effect at level 10. This is pretty good for a goliath or half-giant, who can't be targeted by enlarge person. It's only once per day, but it's at least useful for the really tough fights.
You get a meld into stone effect at 12th. This is good for ambushes, and gives a small bonus to the attack roll of any stone dragon strike you make immediately after leaving the stone.
You get light fortification when you reach level 16. Meh. You should already have heavy fortification on your armor by this point, or at least medium fortification.
19th gives you stoneskin once per day. Damage reduction's nice. Of course, you can always let the wizard cast this on you instead, and it's a lot less likely to be dispelled.
At level 20, you get a Mordenkainen's Sword effect, except that it uses your strength and BAB, with the sword's enhancement bonus. This is... Well, the problem here is that you can do a lot better on your own just by holding the damned thing. I mean, if you intend the sword to be your secondary weapon, okay, but if you wanted this to be your main weapon (and you're paying a fair amount for it, so it should be), you're not going to be using this ability, except when you absolutely need to be using a force weapon.
It also gives you an enhancement bonus to strength. +2 at 9th, +4 at 13th, and +6 at 17th.
The problem here is that strength is almost certainly your main ability. You're going to boost this as often as possible, and generally long before the points they give. You want as much strength as possible, which means ignoring the sword's strength bonus in favor of a higher one from your gauntlets or belt for much of your career. Sure, at some points (when you can't afford the higher strength bonus, or after level 17), you've freed up the belt or gauntlets slot, but other than that, it's just not that useful.
Then its enhancement bonus increases, until it becomes +5 greatsword at level 18.
I don't think Wizards gets this, but almost no one gets more than a +1 enhancement on their weapons, and with good reason. It's easy to get nearly as good an enhancement as the sword gives you from a casting of Greater Magic Weapon. Just as good or better once you get some sort of CL boosters to your friendly caster. Even if there was no such thing as Greater Magic Weapon, weapon special abilities are just generally better than the enhancement bonus.
To add insult to injury, you can't add special abilities to a legacy weapon.
For these abilities, you have to spend 62,350 gold. Now, granted, this is cheaper than a +6 weapon, but you're also taking a -2 to attacks, -4 to reflex, and -12 to hit points. The abilities just generally aren't that great for what you've spent.
I dunno. Maybe some of the other legacy weapons aren't so bad. I haven't looked at all of them. But most of the ones I saw weren't a whole lot better.
To me, a legacy item should be at least as good as what you would normally have. And in the case of legacy weapons, it should be just as good a weapon. If you're using Unfettered, you're probably a melee build. You should not be worse off using Unfettered vs. the sword you would otherwise have had. Unfortunately, there's no real reason for a high level fighter to take the sword as anything other than a secondary weapon, something to sic on the enemy while he pulls out his regular greatsword so that he can do the real damage.
Legacy weapons have cool flavor, but I feel it's the wrong approach to make player pay for flavor.
Am I just crazy? Is it just Unfettered? Or do Legacy weapons need some work?