Duelist lackluster?

[Jarlhen]

So when looking at fighting styles I felt like using a one-handed weapon while still trying to be offensive. Duelist looked nice, +2 guaranteed damage. Neat. Then I look at dual wield and realized the difference. Duelist adds 3 (1d8 average 1 more than for 1d6+2 from the fighting style) whereas TWF adds 8.5 so 5.5 more (1d6 average 3.5 + stat we're going max in this case). Not to mention if you have something like hunter's mark or other similar effect, then that's even more damage. I recognize that dueling can be used with a shield, but I was thinking of ways to make dueling be as offensively strong as TWF or GWF. Has anyone got any ideas for this? Seen any homebrew feats that work well and are balanced? Or is it just a matter of having duelist only be useful to shield users and perhaps bladesingers?

Perhaps a feat to allow for a bonus attack? Question is always to which degree something like that unbalances things. It would be 1 3 (forgot the duelist damage) more damage than crossbow master, for instance. But how does something like that synnergise with other classes and abilities? Obviously it would have to have the stipulation of only being usable when the other hand was empty. Has anyone given these kinds of things any thought?

[Easy_Lee]

Oh boy...

Duelist works on all attacks, including opportunity attacks, and doesn't require your bonus.

Additionally, the +2 damage on a D8 deals damage not too far behind what TWF with 2*D6 does by itself as soon as you gain extra attack. This is in addition to the free offhand, which you can use to hold a shield.

If you include feats, TWF can increase its damage, but not as much as duelist with a quarterstaff and polearm mastery, or a shield master with the chance for advantage from shoves, particularly if you acquire athletics expertise. When you consider the other benefits of shield mastery and polearm mastery, there's no contest. Either of those with dueling is better than TWF.

The only way to come out ahead with base TWF is to always be mounted and dual wield lances. Good luck getting your DM to allow that.

[Jarlhen]

Oh boy...

Duelist works on all attacks, including opportunity attacks, and doesn't require your bonus.

Additionally, the +2 damage on a D8 deals damage not too far behind what TWF with 2*D6 does by itself as soon as you gain extra attack. This is in addition to the free offhand, which you can use to hold a shield.

If you include feats, TWF can increase its damage, but not as much as duelist with a quarterstaff and polearm mastery, or a shield master with the chance for advantage from shoves, particularly if you acquire athletics expertise. When you consider the other benefits of shield mastery and polearm mastery, there's no contest. Either of those with dueling is better than TWF.

The only way to come out ahead with base TWF is to always be mounted and dual wield lances. Good luck getting your DM to allow that.

Hrm, I hadn't considered polearm master. I hate that feat so much, I feel almost as if it's mandatory for a melee to use it. Almost. It's just so good. However, neither of which feels particularly duel-y in the sense of a swashbuckler type. Of course historically shields were extremely common. But in a fantasy world you'd want to be able to utilize just a single weapon such as a sword. Maybe I'm entirely wrong, I just feel like it's lacking in such a situation.

[Biggstick]

So when looking at fighting styles I felt like using a one-handed weapon while still trying to be offensive. Duelist looked nice, +2 guaranteed damage. Neat. Then I look at dual wield and realized the difference. Duelist adds 3 (1d8 average 1 more than for 1d6+2 from the fighting style) whereas TWF adds 8.5 so 5.5 more (1d6 average 3.5 + stat we're going max in this case). Not to mention if you have something like hunter's mark or other similar effect, then that's even more damage. I recognize that dueling can be used with a shield, but I was thinking of ways to make dueling be as offensively strong as TWF or GWF. Has anyone got any ideas for this? Seen any homebrew feats that work well and are balanced? Or is it just a matter of having duelist only be useful to shield users and perhaps bladesingers?

Perhaps a feat to allow for a bonus attack? Question is always to which degree something like that unbalances things. It would be 1 3 (forgot the duelist damage) more damage than crossbow master, for instance. But how does something like that synnergise with other classes and abilities? Obviously it would have to have the stipulation of only being usable when the other hand was empty. Has anyone given these kinds of things any thought?

If you're playing a martial class with access to more attacks, the Duelist fighting style really starts to take off the more attacks you get. With every attack you get, add 2 more damage. This doesn't seem like much at lower levels, but it can really add up for a Fighter at level 11+ with Action Surge.

At level 11, a Fighter can Action Surge for 6 attacks total; which would (as long as each attack hits) make Dueling add 12 damage to that damage total. While this may not seem like much, it also guarantees a certain amount of damage that comes from your Fighter every time they attack (7+ weapon damage if they have a maxed out attack stat). This means that a Fighter at level 11 if they hit each attack will guaranteed do at least 21 weapon damage + the weapon die rolls (which turn the minimum damage to 24 with a 1 rolled on each attack die). While not a huge number, every little bit of damage helps as a Fighter.

[MrFahrenheit]

Oh boy...

Duelist works on all attacks, including opportunity attacks, and doesn't require your bonus.

Additionally, the +2 damage on a D8 deals damage not too far behind what TWF with 2*D6 does by itself as soon as you gain extra attack. This is in addition to the free offhand, which you can use to hold a shield.

If you include feats, TWF can increase its damage, but not as much as duelist with a quarterstaff and polearm mastery, or a shield master with the chance for advantage from shoves, particularly if you acquire athletics expertise. When you consider the other benefits of shield mastery and polearm mastery, there's no contest. Either of those with dueling is better than TWF.

The only way to come out ahead with base TWF is to always be mounted and dual wield lances. Good luck getting your DM to allow that.

Whenever I see "X uses your bonus action, that's why people don't like it," I'm always inclined to ask: what were you going to do with your bonus action anyway?

It's not a rhetorical question. If you aren't going to regularly use your bonus action otherwise, then go for your original plan. If there's something which would incline you to do so on a regular basis, then don't go with the original plan.

[RulesJD]

Two Weapon Fighting sucks in 5e, period. There's really no way around it.

Due to the Feat tax (Dual Wielding) + Mandatory Fighter Dip (TWF style), it's the functional equivalent of Polearm Mastery + GWF. Except PAM is always going to beat TWF, especially when you start combining it with GWM, etc.

It gets even worse because with PAM, you only need 1 magical weapon, with DW you need two to bypass resistances.


The only "dual wielding" build that is viable is a Monk, who kinda-sorta is a DW when you realize that they get d6+dex damage as a bonus action without any of the class dip/feat requirements.

[R.Shackleford]

Whenever I see "X uses your bonus action, that's why people don't like it," I'm always inclined to ask: what were you going to do with your bonus action anyway?

It's not a rhetorical question. If you aren't going to regularly use your bonus action otherwise, then go for your original plan. If there's something which would incline you to do so on a regular basis, then don't go with the original plan.

It really depends on the build but for me ibprefer the Strength based Rogue as my "fighter". That bonus action is going toward dash, disengage, and shoving the enemy to the ground so I can stab with advantage.

If I'm playing a caster I will set up my character to have bonus action spells such as Misty Step and Spiritual Weapon.

[Vogonjeltz]

So when looking at fighting styles I felt like using a one-handed weapon while still trying to be offensive. Duelist looked nice, +2 guaranteed damage. Neat. Then I look at dual wield and realized the difference. Duelist adds 3 (1d8 average 1 more than for 1d6+2 from the fighting style) whereas TWF adds 8.5 so 5.5 more (1d6 average 3.5 + stat we're going max in this case). Not to mention if you have something like hunter's mark or other similar effect, then that's even more damage. I recognize that dueling can be used with a shield, but I was thinking of ways to make dueling be as offensively strong as TWF or GWF. Has anyone got any ideas for this? Seen any homebrew feats that work well and are balanced? Or is it just a matter of having duelist only be useful to shield users and perhaps bladesingers?

Perhaps a feat to allow for a bonus attack? Question is always to which degree something like that unbalances things. It would be 1 3 (forgot the duelist damage) more damage than crossbow master, for instance. But how does something like that synnergise with other classes and abilities? Obviously it would have to have the stipulation of only being usable when the other hand was empty. Has anyone given these kinds of things any thought?

Think of it this way, TWF adds between 1-5 damage depending on ability modifier.
Duelist adds 2-8 depending on the number of attacks with that one weapon. (more with action surge for a fighter)

So until you have 3+ regular attacks, the bonus damage from TWF style would potentially be higher. After that, Dueling gives greater value.


Hrm, I hadn't considered polearm master. I hate that feat so much, I feel almost as if it's mandatory for a melee to use it. Almost. It's just so good. However, neither of which feels particularly duel-y in the sense of a swashbuckler type. Of course historically shields were extremely common. But in a fantasy world you'd want to be able to utilize just a single weapon such as a sword. Maybe I'm entirely wrong, I just feel like it's lacking in such a situation.

The damage loss is too great. 1d10 instead of 2d6 is a mistake when feats are on the table, that's a point of damage lost every attack.

[Foxhound438]

Perhaps a feat to allow for a bonus attack?(...)But how does something like that synnergise with other classes and abilities?

for the bonus attack, there are a few options but the one that stands out is polearm master with a quarterstaff, the other option I would consider using being war cleric's 1st level ability.

three spells and a class feature for you to consider for synergy:

hex and hunter's mark are great spells that boost your damage by 1d6 per hit, the major drawback being it always competes with your bonus action attack from (probably) polearm master. However, against one or two tough enemies it can do a lot of work. One in warlock or two in ranger is required here, short of getting the magic initiate feat.

for a slightly weaker, yet less action-intensive option, you have divine favor. a d4 instead of a d6, but you never have to "re-target" it, once it's up it's up for the duration. one in war cleric or two in paladin can get you this, unfortunately you can't grab it with a feat.

honorable mention to elemental weapon, it's good if you can have it up before the fighting starts.

For a class feature, the paladin's improved divine smite is a significant, free, always on damage boost of 1d8 per hit.