Help building a melee spellcaster.

[LoyalPaladin]

Hello playground!

So I'm looking into a variety of classes that could help an arcane caster be fairly viable. The theme of the build I'd like is something along the lines of an "Arcane Fencer". I've looked into Arcane Duelist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) and Swiftblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327), but Spelldancer seems like a really cool dip that I'd love to work in.

To get to the point, I'd like to build a dex/int character (preferably of the elven persuasion) that functions primarily in melee. Bonus points to anyone who can point me to some useful arcane persisted spells.

[MisterKaws]

You'll probably want Thunderlance, from SpC.

[LoyalPaladin]

You'll probably want Thunderlance, from SpC.
That's a cool spell! I'll mark it down.

[Troacctid]

Bladeweave is pretty good.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Spelldancer and Swiftblade go very well together, as they share some prerequisites (Dodge and Mobility), and Swiftblade only lacks persistomancy, which Spelldancer provides ad infinitum. Arcane Duelist also shares the prerequisites, but it's a horrible class for arcane duelists, as it does not advance spellcasting at all, and it has half base attack bonus (weird, that).

The other feats you need for Spelldancer are Endurance and Combat Casting, which are both terrible, but are probably worth it, if you can get enough feats. Something like human martial wizard 5/spelldancer 1/swiftblade 10 is excellent (note: fractional bab required, otherwise you need wizard 6), but you're spending your first-level feats on Dodge, Mobility and Combat Casting, then Extend Spell as third-level feat, and Endurance as 5th-level wizard bonus feat, with your sixth-level feat being Persistent Spell.

Since you prefer a dex-based elf, you'd be looking at feycraft weapons, and a flaw, to pick up Persist before 9th.

[LoyalPaladin]

Bladeweave is pretty good.
Oh, that's a good one!


Spelldancer and Swiftblade go very well together, as they share some prerequisites (Dodge and Mobility), and Swiftblade only lacks persistomancy, which Spelldancer provides ad infinitum. Arcane Duelist also shares the prerequisites, but it's a horrible class for arcane duelists, as it does not advance spellcasting at all, and it has half base attack bonus (weird, that).

The other feats you need for Spelldancer are Endurance and Combat Casting, which are both terrible, but are probably worth it, if you can get enough feats. Something like human martial wizard 5/spelldancer 1/swiftblade 10 is excellent (note: fractional bab required, otherwise you need wizard 6), but you're spending your first-level feats on Dodge, Mobility and Combat Casting, then Extend Spell as third-level feat, and Endurance as 5th-level wizard bonus feat, with your sixth-level feat being Persistent Spell.

Since you prefer a dex-based elf, you'd be looking at feycraft weapons, and a flaw, to pick up Persist before 9th.
We usually get 2 flaws. So I could take (as an elf) feats like this.

Flaw: Combat Casting
Flaw: Dodge
1st: Endurance
3rd: Mobility
Wizard: Extend Spell
6th: Persistent Spell


I would not be proficient with a rapier (or even cooler, the Elven Thinblade) and I need certain class skills that I don't qualify for.

[ExLibrisMortis]

We usually get 2 flaws. So I could take (as an elf) feats like this.

Flaw: Combat Casting
Flaw: Dodge
1st: Endurance
3rd: Mobility
Wizard: Extend Spell
6th: Persistent Spell

Don't forget your first-level wizard bonus feat, if you go with martial wizard. It's probably better to trade Scribe Scroll for one of the prerequisite feats, since there are so many.


I would not be proficient with a rapier (or even cooler, the Elven Thinblade) and I need certain class skills that I don't qualify for.
You're proficient with rapiers, because you're an elf. That's one of the perks of the race. As a grey elf, you get -2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, +2 int, which works nicely as well, and the elf wizard substitution levels 1 and 3 can be of some use (don't take 5, you don't need archery feats). If you're spending a feat on EWP, I'd actually recommend the elven courtblade - it's a finessable elven stabby weapon, but two-handed, so it works somewhat better with strength boosts (persistent bite of the were-animal) and Power Attack (synergizes with persistent wraithstrike). If you don't want to spend a feat on it, a persistent bite of the were-tiger grants Power Attack, but that's a 6th, so it comes online at level 14 (three lost caster levels).

You need one more class skill, Perform, because you need 6 ranks by level 5. Four ranks Tumble can be done cross-class, and the other requirements are Concentration and Spellcraft, which you are taking anyway. There's a feat to get Perform, Apprentice (Entertainer), which also adds Diplomacy (and two skill points, which you can throw into Perform). You can just about fit it in if you're using martial wizard to trade Scribe Scroll. Alternatively, you can wait with Spelldancer until level 10, but then you'd have to take wizard 6 (or Mindbender 1, but that's four cross-class ranks in four more skills).

[Gruftzwerg]

Since you are aiming for a Dex build, what do u think about something monkish?

Enlightened Fist
has some pretty cool stuff and lets you advance monk and 8/10 spellcasting progression.

And if you haven't set your mind for the arcane caster class, keep in mind that Warlocks can make some pretty nice gish builds too (see my signature^^). Warlocks have 24h self(-ish^^)-buffs, which is pretty nice for melee casters, cause you don't need preparation time before combat. And with the Eldritch Claws feat (from DM) you can really rend everything apart.

[Eisfalken]

Strongly recommend you get the feat Arcane Strike. It will allow you to do more weapon-based damage with the rapier, and it frees you to take more defensive and utility spells to linew you up for a really good hit.

If you want a more Red Mage style, I think sorcerer/bard might do the trick. It's not quite as slamming as a full BAB, but you should have loads of other stuff, including plenty of buffs if you need to make up that extra attack bonus. Plus backup heals, lots of good skill-monkey spells, etc. Grab Dragonfire Inspiration ACF to make all the melee folks happy.

[Willie the Duck]

Have you considered the Duskblade? It's not as "powerful" as a full optimized gish build, but benefits in that it is actually functional at doing what it is supposed to do at all levels.

[LoyalPaladin]

Don't forget your first-level wizard bonus feat, if you go with martial wizard. It's probably better to trade Scribe Scroll for one of the prerequisite feats, since there are so many.
Oh right! Good to know... Martial Wizard is UA right?


You're proficient with rapiers, because you're an elf. That's one of the perks of the race. As a grey elf, you get -2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, +2 int, which works nicely as well, and the elf wizard substitution levels 1 and 3 can be of some use (don't take 5, you don't need archery feats). If you're spending a feat on EWP, I'd actually recommend the elven courtblade - it's a finessable elven stabby weapon, but two-handed, so it works somewhat better with strength boosts (persistent bite of the were-animal) and Power Attack (synergizes with persistent wraithstrike). If you don't want to spend a feat on it, a persistent bite of the were-tiger grants Power Attack, but that's a 6th, so it comes online at level 14 (three lost caster levels).
That... is a really helpful block of information. I'll definitely remember to do that.

Elven Courtblade just sounds so fancy. Leave it to the elves. I wasn't able to find a picture of it, but I imagine it's just a big thinblade.
http://www.geocities.ws/ms.robbie72/images/Thinblade.gif


You need one more class skill, Perform, because you need 6 ranks by level 5. Four ranks Tumble can be done cross-class, and the other requirements are Concentration and Spellcraft, which you are taking anyway. There's a feat to get Perform, Apprentice (Entertainer), which also adds Diplomacy (and two skill points, which you can throw into Perform). You can just about fit it in if you're using martial wizard to trade Scribe Scroll. Alternatively, you can wait with Spelldancer until level 10, but then you'd have to take wizard 6 (or Mindbender 1, but that's four cross-class ranks in four more skills).
Hm. I'll look into it. I always hate cross skill ranks, they're one thing pathfinder actually improved on in my opinion.


Since you are aiming for a Dex build, what do u think about something monkish?
I'm pretty set on the Wizard/Spelldancer/Swiftblade. I'd have aimed for Arcane Duelist levels too, but apparently it's pretty sub par.


Strongly recommend you get the feat Arcane Strike. It will allow you to do more weapon-based damage with the rapier, and it frees you to take more defensive and utility spells to linew you up for a really good hit.
Oh, I almost forgot about Arcane Strike. Thanks for reminding me, I'll remember to add it into my feat progression.


Have you considered the Duskblade? It's not as "powerful" as a full optimized gish build, but benefits in that it is actually functional at doing what it is supposed to do at all levels.
I did consider Duskblade, but the spell selection is really limited and I'd like to utilize some persisted spells with Spelldancer.

[Flickerdart]

I've had a similar idea a while ago (wizard that pulls magic swords out of the air), so feel free to revel in the spoils of my labours:

All unlabelled spells are Core or SpC.

Alphabetically ish:

Black Blade of Disaster (S/W 9)
Blade of Pain and Fear (C3, S/W 3)
Blade Thirst (R3)
Blades of Fire (R1, S/W 1)
Bladeweave (B2, S/W2)
Bodyblades (C2)
Brilliant Blade (C7, D7, S/W6)
Burning Sword (S/W 2)
Critical Strike (B1, S/W1)
Daggerspell Stance (S/W2, D2)
Emerald Flame Fist (S/W7)
Flame Dagger (S/W 2)
Flame Whips (S/W 4)
Howling Chain (S/W6)
Ice Axe (C3)
Ice Gauntlet (C1)
X Sword (P4)
Moon Blade (Moon 3)
Persistent Blade (S/W1)
Ring of Blades (C3)
Sonic Weapon (B2, S/W2)
Spectral Weapon (B4, S/W3)
Spectral Touch (S/W 6)
Steeldance (s/W 3)
Sword of Darkness (S/W 7)
Sword of Deception (S/W 4)
Thunderlance (S/W 4)
Weapon of Energy (C3, S/W 3)
Weapon Shift (B2, S/W1)
Whirling Blade (B2, S/W2)
Mordenkainen's Sword (S/W7)
Flame Blade (D2)
Spiritual Weapon (C2)
Blade of Blood (S/W 1, C1) (PHB2)
Boneblade (C3) (BOVD)
Animate Weapon (S/W 3) (Cmage)
Coat of Arms (S/W 5) (Cmage)
Prismatic Bow (S/W 8) (CMage)


Sorc/Wiz only, by level and with description. Sonorous Hum is in there because it kicks ass for maintaining concentration on multiple magic swords.

S/W
1
Blades of Fire: Swift, Up to 2 weapons deal +1d8 damage
Persistent Blade: Standard, rounds/level, tiny dagger deals 1d4 and flanks
Weapon Shift: Standard, minutes/level, transforms melee weapon into another one
Blade of Blood: Swift, rounds/level, discharge to deal 1d6 ot 3d6 if you take 5 damage
2
Bladeweave: Swift, rounds/level, daze targets
Burning Sword: Standard, minutes/level, adds Flaming Burst
Daggerspell Stance: Standard, rounds/level, gain benefits when fighting with 2 daggers
Flame Dagger: Standard, rounds/level, get a touch attack dagger that deals 1d4+CL
Sonic Weapon: Standard, minutes/level, adds Sonic
Whirling Blade: Standard, throw a weapon
Cloud of Knives: Free attacks
3
Animate Weapon: Concentration+1 round, weapon fights by itself
Blade of Pain and Fear: Rounds/level, 1d6+1 as melee touch and target must save vs frightened for 1d4 rounds
Spectral Weapon: Swift, rounds, conjure a blade you're proficient with and make touch attacks
Steeldance: Standard, rounds/level, two swords attack enemies adjacent to you
Weapon of Energy: Standard, rounds/level, add an X burst property to a weapon
Sonorous Hum: Maintain concentration
4
Thunderlance: Standard, rounds/level, deal damage
Flame Whips: Standard, rounds, your forelimbs turn into 15ft fire whips that deal 6d6
Sword of Deception: rounds/level, sword strikes enemies from your direction with your BAB, deals 1d8 and -2 on saves
5
Coat of Arms: minutes/level, swords give you shield bonus and can be expended to deal 2d6 unerringly
6
Brilliant Weapon: Minutes/level grant a thing brilliant energy
Howling Chain: Rounds/level, 15ft chain makes trip attacks
7
Emerald Flame Fist: Your punch deals 3d6+CL and target catches fire
Sword of Darkness: Deals 1 negative level per hit, same as Sword of Deception
Mordenkainen's Sword: rounds/level, deals 4d6+3 damage
8
Prismatic Bow: +1 longbow that also shoots one of each prismatic effects
9
Black Blade of Disaster: Concentration duration, Disintegrate in sword form


And some strategies:

1-2: Persistent Blade flanks with you, use Critical Hit or Blades of Blood to augment damage before you get SA
3-4: Flame Dagger replaces your regular weapon, I guess you can Weapon Shift and use the touch attacks to PA for lots
5-6: Switch to Blade of Pain and Fear, use Steeldance and Persistent Blade simultaneously, Sonorous Hum to use Animate Weapon and keep casting
7-10: **** yeah Thunderlance, or Flame Whips, Sword of Deception added to your repertoire of free attacks
11-12: Howling Chain added to your repertoire of free attacks, Spectral Touch if you feel like neg levels
13-16: Mordy's Sword and Sword of Darkness both bring the hurt for free, Emerald Flame Fist sets things on fire
17+: Quickened Sonorous Hum into Black Blade, then whatever.


You'll notice that 8th and 9th level spells aren't terribly useful for you except for metamagic, so Swiftblade comes highly recommended.

[LoyalPaladin]

I've had a similar idea a while ago (wizard that pulls magic swords out of the air), so feel free to revel in the spoils of my labours:

All unlabelled spells are Core or SpC.

Alphabetically ish:

Black Blade of Disaster (S/W 9)
Blade of Pain and Fear (C3, S/W 3)
Blade Thirst (R3)
Blades of Fire (R1, S/W 1)
Bladeweave (B2, S/W2)
Bodyblades (C2)
Brilliant Blade (C7, D7, S/W6)
Burning Sword (S/W 2)
Critical Strike (B1, S/W1)
Daggerspell Stance (S/W2, D2)
Emerald Flame Fist (S/W7)
Flame Dagger (S/W 2)
Flame Whips (S/W 4)
Howling Chain (S/W6)
Ice Axe (C3)
Ice Gauntlet (C1)
X Sword (P4)
Moon Blade (Moon 3)
Persistent Blade (S/W1)
Ring of Blades (C3)
Sonic Weapon (B2, S/W2)
Spectral Weapon (B4, S/W3)
Spectral Touch (S/W 6)
Steeldance (s/W 3)
Sword of Darkness (S/W 7)
Sword of Deception (S/W 4)
Thunderlance (S/W 4)
Weapon of Energy (C3, S/W 3)
Weapon Shift (B2, S/W1)
Whirling Blade (B2, S/W2)
Mordenkainen's Sword (S/W7)
Flame Blade (D2)
Spiritual Weapon (C2)
Blade of Blood (S/W 1, C1) (PHB2)
Boneblade (C3) (BOVD)
Animate Weapon (S/W 3) (Cmage)
Coat of Arms (S/W 5) (Cmage)
Prismatic Bow (S/W 8) (CMage)


Sorc/Wiz only, by level and with description. Sonorous Hum is in there because it kicks ass for maintaining concentration on multiple magic swords.

S/W
1
Blades of Fire: Swift, Up to 2 weapons deal +1d8 damage
Persistent Blade: Standard, rounds/level, tiny dagger deals 1d4 and flanks
Weapon Shift: Standard, minutes/level, transforms melee weapon into another one
Blade of Blood: Swift, rounds/level, discharge to deal 1d6 ot 3d6 if you take 5 damage
2
Bladeweave: Swift, rounds/level, daze targets
Burning Sword: Standard, minutes/level, adds Flaming Burst
Daggerspell Stance: Standard, rounds/level, gain benefits when fighting with 2 daggers
Flame Dagger: Standard, rounds/level, get a touch attack dagger that deals 1d4+CL
Sonic Weapon: Standard, minutes/level, adds Sonic
Whirling Blade: Standard, throw a weapon
Cloud of Knives: Free attacks
3
Animate Weapon: Concentration+1 round, weapon fights by itself
Blade of Pain and Fear: Rounds/level, 1d6+1 as melee touch and target must save vs frightened for 1d4 rounds
Spectral Weapon: Swift, rounds, conjure a blade you're proficient with and make touch attacks
Steeldance: Standard, rounds/level, two swords attack enemies adjacent to you
Weapon of Energy: Standard, rounds/level, add an X burst property to a weapon
Sonorous Hum: Maintain concentration
4
Thunderlance: Standard, rounds/level, deal damage
Flame Whips: Standard, rounds, your forelimbs turn into 15ft fire whips that deal 6d6
Sword of Deception: rounds/level, sword strikes enemies from your direction with your BAB, deals 1d8 and -2 on saves
5
Coat of Arms: minutes/level, swords give you shield bonus and can be expended to deal 2d6 unerringly
6
Brilliant Weapon: Minutes/level grant a thing brilliant energy
Howling Chain: Rounds/level, 15ft chain makes trip attacks
7
Emerald Flame Fist: Your punch deals 3d6+CL and target catches fire
Sword of Darkness: Deals 1 negative level per hit, same as Sword of Deception
Mordenkainen's Sword: rounds/level, deals 4d6+3 damage
8
Prismatic Bow: +1 longbow that also shoots one of each prismatic effects
9
Black Blade of Disaster: Concentration duration, Disintegrate in sword form


And some strategies:

1-2: Persistent Blade flanks with you, use Critical Hit or Blades of Blood to augment damage before you get SA
3-4: Flame Dagger replaces your regular weapon, I guess you can Weapon Shift and use the touch attacks to PA for lots
5-6: Switch to Blade of Pain and Fear, use Steeldance and Persistent Blade simultaneously, Sonorous Hum to use Animate Weapon and keep casting
7-10: **** yeah Thunderlance, or Flame Whips, Sword of Deception added to your repertoire of free attacks
11-12: Howling Chain added to your repertoire of free attacks, Spectral Touch if you feel like neg levels
13-16: Mordy's Sword and Sword of Darkness both bring the hurt for free, Emerald Flame Fist sets things on fire
17+: Quickened Sonorous Hum into Black Blade, then whatever.


You'll notice that 8th and 9th level spells aren't terribly useful for you except for metamagic, so Swiftblade comes highly recommended.
Holy smokes, Flickerdart. That's great! Thanks for sharing that!