Optimize this Feat 8: Seelie Court Noble Kelir (web)

[daremetoidareyo]

I Love Feats. They are little alterations to the rules and they interface with class features in some really fun and strange ways. Sometimes their utility is circumspect and sometimes they just stink. I'm looking at you Battle Dance. However, there is just something really satisfying about the interplay of feats and rules to produce illogical and unintended effects. Also, as a team, we can collectively push the limits of our apparent intelligence. (https://www.singularityweblog.com/human-swarming-and-the-future-of-collective-intelligence/)

What is this?
So this is the "Optimize this feat" discussion, wherein we work together to plumb the clever and amazing uses for feats in ways the designers could have only dreamt of. Arbitrary credit seems to be important to sway people's incentives, so I have devised the following system to award credit to people who help explore the possibilities of how to use a feat. I'm developing this pseudo-contest on the fly, so rules are subject to change :smallannoyed:


All participants in the optimization endeavor post directly into the thread. They may post as many times as they want, just like any thread where you volunteer your ideas. After a week or so, the thread will be evaluated and participants will be assigned a score. That score represents how helpful or novel the poster was in their analysis of a feat's uses, abuses, interactions, and limitations. The rubric by which points are assigned to posters is developed below. The poster's who are most helpful will be announced after a week, and have their name highlighted in bold and in a font color other than black! I will try to remain interactive in the process, because the contest element to me is secondary to extracting the maximum amount of versatility and power out of the feat resource.


Point Allocation Rubric
The following list is not exhaustive of how points will be allocated, as I imagine that there will be weird end cases.

Suggestion of a non-overtly obvious class feature, spell, feat, skill trick, psi-power, magic/psionic item, or monster that interplays with the feat to produce an exaggerated result.

Overt Obviousness will be judged by me, but I will generally allocate points generously, What I am trying to avoid is people suggesting feat interplays that are non-exceptional and thus cluttering the thread with lame and uninteresting things. 1 point.

If the suggestion is particularly powerful or clever, an additional point may be allocated to reward the optimizerly thinking. This decision is mine, although I will be swayed by what seems like genuine "co-signing," where other posters in the thread really glom onto the idea and develop it further.

A small build stub, between 5-12 levels, that includes a small write up of how the feat interplays with a few class features, racial features, spells, powers and feats to produce an effect that is far beyond the scope of what the feat of the week is capable of providing on its own. 5 points. +/- 1 point.

A rather undeveloped stub may only receive 4 points if it is a slightly modified rehash of a previous stub. A rather ingenious stub can earn an extra point. In some cases, you may actually do both! All of these are judgement calls as adjudicated by myself.

A fully functional optimization of the feat that ramps it up to its maximum power level where there is no way to possibly make it more amazing, including a 20 level build that follows the same format as iron chef dishes, but with minimal write up, is worthy of 10-12 points.

As the Chair, I will remain interactive throughout the thread, even suggesting a few builds. Commenting on these is fine and all of the rubric points apply to those as well. This means that the thread is not a totally objective competition.

A display of relevant rules expertise that shapes the discussion is worthy of 0 or 1 point. This is the "squishiest" criteria, and will only be allocated when it corrects part of the conversation that is going too far off the rails. Particularly nasty interchanges about RAW may lead to abdication of this point. Being incorrect isn't an immoral offense, so I want an atmosphere where suggestions are flying but staying generally within the real bounds of dnd play. RAW discussions tend to get a little too personal, and hopefully this arbitrary point system can circumvent that. Plus, seeing as how extensive the rules system is, it is easy for me to get excited about how to make an idea work and get lost about the details.

Bounties. Starting with Optimize this feat #5, I am instating an additional means of accumulating bonus points: Bounties. You will find the bounties and their point values in a spoiler on the bottom of the second post, underneath the relevant rules excerpts and clarifications. A Bounty is a "winner-take-all" style miniquest for users to provide information relevant to optimizing the feat. The hope is to allow these "Optimize this Feat" contests can serve as a longform mini-handbook to the use of their namesake feats. Bounties will just be replaced with nudges towards helpful development goals.


BIAS
I am not a perfect judge. I prefer mundane to magical. I prefer Tier 3 and below to Tier 2 and up. But I do love me some dysfunction. So optimization that requires a lot of high level spells or powers (anything level 4 or up) will be less impressive to me. Go ahead and make your suggestion, I will try to police these biases in myself, but understand that these are factors that are in play.

Other information
All of that said, I have an exhibited tendency to be more forgiving/rules lax, whereas some of you are far more RAW heavy. I really do appreciate ya'll, so don't be afraid to reign in some of the theory and ground it in what is explicitly allowed. Different tables play the game differently. And this forum tends to highlight super polarized ends of this permissiveness spectrum that spans from "RAW to a fault" - "So ridiculously theoretically unbalanced beyond any DM's willingness to allow". Most play tends to be in the middle, if not a little skewed towards RAW: but not all play. With that in mind, if requested, if you are asked to assume that the theoretical DM handwaves your criticism as a special exception, please update your approach and proceed from there if you would like to continue to parse the possibilities that a feat offers. In this way, we can develop the full spectrum of what a feat can do.

This week's Feat is Fey Feature's (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a) Seelie Court Noble Kelir (web)

This endeavor concludes at 11:59PM Eastern Standard Time on July 5th

Optimize this Feat 1:Wanderer's Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472308-Optimize-This-Feat-1-Wanderer-s-Diplomacy): VAZ
Optimize this Feat 2: Conductivity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473047-Optimize-this-Feat-2-Conductivity-from-Unearthed-Arcana&highlight=Conductivity): ben-zayb
Optimize this Feat 3: Swim-by Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474225-Optimize-this-feat-3-Swim-by-attack-from-Stormwrack): WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476019-Optimize-this-Feat-4-Contagious-Paralysis-from-Libris-Mortis) WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 5: Hammer and Piton (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477681-Optimize-this-Feat-5-Hammer-and-Piton-From-Dungeonscape) Zetapup
Optimize this Feat 6: Residual Rebound (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479041-Optimize-this-Feat-6-Residual-Rebound-from-Unearthed-Arcana&p=20493024#post20493024) ben-zayb
Optimize this Feat 7: Mark of Phlegethos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480323-Optimize-this-Feat-7-Mark-of-Phlegethos-from-Fiendish-Codex-2-Tot9H): Darrin

Upcoming Schedule:

Don't post your ideas for these on the wrong competition. Save em. Unleash your brilliance on us.
Optimize this feat #9: Races of Faerun's Animal friends p.161
Optimize this feat #10:To Be Determined ...(could be your suggestion! make a post and I'll consider it.)

[daremetoidareyo]

This feat as some easy pre-reqs if you know how to write a backstory

You belong to a noble family with status in the Seelie Court. The Queen of Light invites your house to general Court functions.

Prerequisite: Fey and Seelie Court Member, or Fey and Diplomacy 5 ranks

Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to saving throws from spells and spell-like abilities from fey creatures.

In addition, you may use your Bluff or Diplomacy skill to influence others' opinions. In a social situation, you may make a "cut direct," or a ridiculing comment at a target. The target opposes with either a Charisma check (if not a Seelie or Unseelie Court Noble Kelir) or a Diplomacy check (if she has the Seelie or Unseelie Court Noble Kelir feat). If your cut direct succeeds, the crowd's attitude toward your target degrades one step (for example, from friendly to indifferent).

Special: This feat is a bonus feat to anyone with two Seelie Court Noble parents who have presented the child to court.

Diplomacy rules are Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm)

Thoughts:

First clue is social situation, so we can only use this ability in combat if we have a way to shorten a social situation down to an action in a single round.
It appears that you can reroll this check
weaponize-able?

[WhamBamSam]

Does feinting count as "influencing others' opinions" (ie, changing their opinion about where your attack is going to come from)? Because you can get a few feints off in a round, whereas other diplomacy and bluff checks usually take at least a full round action. Get Improved Feint and something like Insightful Feint, or Scarlet Corsair, or even Hustle, and you can "cut direct" 3 times in a round, which would drop his allies down to hostile if they only started at friendly. To turn helpful or fanatical enemies against their leader, we'll need to amp up our action economy a bit, but it's a start.

[Troacctid]

Well, since you can get the feat for free if both your parents are fey, I guess the obvious thing to do is to play a duskling or killoren.


Does feinting count as "influencing others' opinions" (ie, changing their opinion about where your attack is going to come from)? Because you can get a few feints off in a round, whereas other diplomacy and bluff checks usually take at least a full round action. Get Improved Feint and something like Insightful Feint, or Scarlet Corsair, or even Hustle, and you can "cut direct" 3 times in a round, which would drop his allies down to hostile if they only started at friendly. To turn helpful or fanatical enemies against their leader, we'll need to amp up our action economy a bit, but it's a start.
No, it does not. And a combat is generally not a social situation.

[ben-zayb]

Just stack it with a debuffer bard, especially since it has no action specification. Use Haunting Melody to stack fear effects (up to -6 on the check) on multiple targets using any sort of action that allows perform checks (use Undersong to expand your Perform options), then Doomspeak as a non-action against the especially charismatic ones. Basically turn your enemies against each other; the less they trust each other to begin with, the worse their situation gets.

Make sure your CHA is really high as befits a good bard, because it will pull double duty--one for your main skill check/s and one for the multiple set-ups using Haunting Melody and Doomspeak, among other debuffs. Maybe add Dirgesinger too to round up the Haunting Sower of Dissension gimmick?

[Jormengand]

A crowd with a negative opinion in a court (Sharn: City of Towers) or a performance (Races of Stone) provides penalties for the defence or performer.

[WhamBamSam]

No, it does not. And a combat is generally not a social situation.Alright then, Exemplar 5 seems to explicitly work. A Jumplomancer with Sudden Leap or Travel Devotion should be able to cut direct thrice in a round. I'd argue that the fact you're attempting something that works as Diplomacy resolves the issue of whether or not it's a social situation as well.

[Jormengand]

Also, has anyone considered optimising it by - le gasp - using it how it's supposed to be used? Because no-one actually has to hear the Cut Direct, you can stand at the back of a crowd making bluff or diplomacy checks under your breath, which means that in a duration of a five-minute speech (or even a five-round one, if your DM is being nice about how long bluff checks take) you can turn a fanatic horde of devotees, willing to give their lives to the speaker, into a vigilante mob willing to take risks to harm them.

Also, it's an easy bonus feat. Maybe mess with Dark Chaos Shuffle by having your parents repeatedly present you to the court to get your bonus feat? Or maybe, just having been presented is enough that you repeatedly regain your bonus feat each time you lose it to DCS.

[daremetoidareyo]

Would wanderer's diplomacy (PHB2): social agility allow you to sub in a bluff check during combat?

[Jowgen]

Never done one of these before, but I suppose I'll take a quick crack at it. I shall make a point of not using custom compentence bonus items or spells to boost diplomacy, and keep the drain on actual class levels minimal so that this optimization can be applied to a wider range of character types.

Race: A Feytouched (fiend Folio) who made the transition to Half-Fey (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a). If possible, throw on Magic Blooded for another +2 Cha. Later on, acquire Saint and Fire-Souled for even more Cha if desired.

The +1 from Feytouched and the +1 from Half-Fey transition can both be bought off at level 3 by making the transition after the first buy-off. Saint arugably has its own self-buy-off mechanic. Fire-Souled's +3 must be eaten as is.

Feats: Take Nymph's Kiss (easy fluff qualification) for a +2 on Cha-checks. You gain Leadership as a bonus from Fire-souled. Seelie Court Noble Kelir as a bonus feat (parents can both be half-fey in the Seelie Court, explaining Fey-touched + Half-fey).

Items: Take an Admiral's Bicorne (Storm) and, as per MIC item rules, stack on a Circlet of Persuasion for a +5 Untyped and a +3 Compentence bonus on Cha-based checks. To use the Bicorne you must emulate race, so be able to UMD DC 25 on a 1, but with all the Cha-bonuses added that should be easy enough.

Class: 1 Level of Binder, in order to Bind Naberius and gain his "Silver Tongue" ability. Or gain if from Bind Vestige and Practiced Binder feats. Beyond that, it's anyone's game really.

Bottomline: Race and template grant anywhere from a +6 to a +14 bonus to Cha, depending on how many we took, and then we add level-based bonuses and items. A Cha score of 30 should be achieveable by mid levels. Also, we get a flat +10 bonus on all charisma based checks from Nymph's Kiss and our head-slot item; so all in all a +20 from Cha alone. With Skill synergies and a few ranks, one should be able to get the Bluff and Diplomacy modifiers to a comfortable +30 by mid levels.

Silver Tongue allows us to not only take 10 on diplomacy and bluff at all times, and most importantly, make a Rushed Diplomacy check as a Standard Action with no penalty.

So, in combat, you can as a standard action worsen the attitude all enemies have towards an enemy of your choice by 1 step; lest that enemy can beat a DC 40 Diplomacy check. On the next turn, you can't re-try with Diplomacy, but you can switch to Bluff (possibly a full-round action, or might stay standard) to reduce the attitude by 2 steps total. Retries of Bluff may or may not be possible, but shouldn't be needed.

If you can get a suprise round and roll well on initiative, you may be able to turn all the minions who were Helpful towards their boss onto being Indifferent towards him instead prior to their 1st turns. If the boss wasn't well liked in the first place, they will become Unfriendly or maybe even hostile towards him instead. Being not at least friendly, they should no longer count as "Allies" to the boss, which can prevent certain abilities from working.

In either case, there is a good chance that the boss' minions will no longer want to follow orders, a decent chance that they therefore won't attack you, and some chance that they'll physically turn on their boss (or at least insult him). This can potentially neutralize a vast number of powerful enemies in combat before they can act, and maybe even turn them into assets.

So, did I do this thing right?

[daremetoidareyo]

celestial sorcerer aura pairs well with this...giving all hostile creatures within 20' of you a -2 to all rolls unless they hit you, which they are unlikely to do, seeing as how they are hostile to someone else...

[daremetoidareyo]

Never done one of these before, but I suppose I'll take a quick crack at it. I shall make a point of not using custom compentence bonus items or spells to boost diplomacy, and keep the drain on actual class levels minimal so that this optimization can be applied to a wider range of character types.

Race: A Feytouched (fiend Folio) who made the transition to Half-Fey (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a). If possible, throw on Magic Blooded for another +2 Cha. Later on, acquire Saint and Fire-Souled for even more Cha if desired.

The +1 from Feytouched and the +1 from Half-Fey transition can both be bought off at level 3 by making the transition after the first buy-off. Saint arugably has its own self-buy-off mechanic. Fire-Souled's +3 must be eaten as is.

Feats: Take Nymph's Kiss (easy fluff qualification) for a +2 on Cha-checks. You gain Leadership as a bonus from Fire-souled. Seelie Court Noble Kelir as a bonus feat (parents can both be half-fey in the Seelie Court, explaining Fey-touched + Half-fey).

Items: Take an Admiral's Bicorne (Storm) and, as per MIC item rules, stack on a Circlet of Persuasion for a +5 Untyped and a +3 Compentence bonus on Cha-based checks. To use the Bicorne you must emulate race, so be able to UMD DC 25 on a 1, but with all the Cha-bonuses added that should be easy enough.

Class: 1 Level of Binder, in order to Bind Naberius and gain his "Silver Tongue" ability. Or gain if from Bind Vestige and Practiced Binder feats. Beyond that, it's anyone's game really.

Bottomline: Race and template grant anywhere from a +6 to a +14 bonus to Cha, depending on how many we took, and then we add level-based bonuses and items. A Cha score of 30 should be achieveable by mid levels. Also, we get a flat +10 bonus on all charisma based checks from Nymph's Kiss and our head-slot item; so all in all a +20 from Cha alone. With Skill synergies and a few ranks, one should be able to get the Bluff and Diplomacy modifiers to a comfortable +30 by mid levels.

Silver Tongue allows us to not only take 10 on diplomacy and bluff at all times, and most importantly, make a Rushed Diplomacy check as a Standard Action with no penalty.

So, in combat, you can as a standard action worsen the attitude all enemies have towards an enemy of your choice by 1 step; lest that enemy can beat a DC 40 Diplomacy check. On the next turn, you can't re-try with Diplomacy, but you can switch to Bluff (possibly a full-round action, or might stay standard) to reduce the attitude by 2 steps total. Retries of Bluff may or may not be possible, but shouldn't be needed.

If you can get a suprise round and roll well on initiative, you may be able to turn all the minions who were Helpful towards their boss onto being Indifferent towards him instead prior to their 1st turns. If the boss wasn't well liked in the first place, they will become Unfriendly or maybe even hostile towards him instead. Being not at least friendly, they should no longer count as "Allies" to the boss, which can prevent certain abilities from working.

In either case, there is a good chance that the boss' minions will no longer want to follow orders, a decent chance that they therefore won't attack you, and some chance that they'll physically turn on their boss (or at least insult him). This can potentially neutralize a vast number of powerful enemies in combat before they can act, and maybe even turn them into assets.

So, did I do this thing right?

Yeah. Actually making a stub with class levels, feats, and necessary gear/spells/powers is worth more to me. When optimizing a build, it is easier to edit than to build from scratch.

So if I were to judge what you did right here, it will look like what follows.


Race: A Feytouched (fiend Folio) who made the transition to Half-Fey (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a). If possible, throw on Magic Blooded for another +2 Cha. Later on, acquire Saint and Fire-Souled for even more Cha if desired.

The +1 from Feytouched and the +1 from Half-Fey transition can both be bought off at level 3 by making the transition after the first buy-off. Saint arugably has its own self-buy-off mechanic. Fire-Souled's +3 must be eaten as is.


Feytouched, half fey, and other charisma boosting templates: 3 points


Feats: Take Nymph's Kiss (easy fluff qualification) for a +2 on Cha-checks. You gain Leadership as a bonus from Fire-souled. Seelie Court Noble Kelir as a bonus feat (parents can both be half-fey in the Seelie Court, explaining Fey-touched + Half-fey).

Items: Take an Admiral's Bicorne (Storm) and, as per MIC item rules, stack on a Circlet of Persuasion for a +5 Untyped and a +3 Compentence bonus on Cha-based checks. To use the Bicorne you must emulate race, so be able to UMD DC 25 on a 1, but with all the Cha-bonuses added that should be easy enough.

Class: 1 Level of Binder, in order to Bind Naberius and gain his "Silver Tongue" ability. Or gain if from Bind Vestige and Practiced Binder feats. Beyond that, it's anyone's game really.

nymphs kiss as a nice theme element. Cheesing free seelie fey feat. 2 points

Charisma boosting items strategy: 2 points


Bottomline: Race and template grant anywhere from a +6 to a +14 bonus to Cha, depending on how many we took, and then we add level-based bonuses and items. A Cha score of 30 should be achieveable by mid levels. Also, we get a flat +10 bonus on all charisma based checks from Nymph's Kiss and our head-slot item; so all in all a +20 from Cha alone. With Skill synergies and a few ranks, one should be able to get the Bluff and Diplomacy modifiers to a comfortable +30 by mid levels.

Silver Tongue allows us to not only take 10 on diplomacy and bluff at all times, and most importantly, make a Rushed Diplomacy check as a Standard Action with no penalty.

So, in combat, you can as a standard action worsen the attitude all enemies have towards an enemy of your choice by 1 step; lest that enemy can beat a DC 40 Diplomacy check. On the next turn, you can't re-try with Diplomacy, but you can switch to Bluff (possibly a full-round action, or might stay standard) to reduce the attitude by 2 steps total. Retries of Bluff may or may not be possible, but shouldn't be needed.

If you can get a suprise round and roll well on initiative, you may be able to turn all the minions who were Helpful towards their boss onto being Indifferent towards him instead prior to their 1st turns. If the boss wasn't well liked in the first place, they will become Unfriendly or maybe even hostile towards him instead. Being not at least friendly, they should no longer count as "Allies" to the boss, which can prevent certain abilities from working.

In either case, there is a good chance that the boss' minions will no longer want to follow orders, a decent chance that they therefore won't attack you, and some chance that they'll physically turn on their boss (or at least insult him). This can potentially neutralize a vast number of powerful enemies in combat before they can act, and maybe even turn them into assets.

Silver tongue: very useful: 2 points

tactic: turn minions on master in a single round: 1 point

------------------------------------

Let's talk a minute: does silver tongue paired with this feat make crowd tactics worthwhile. Besides leadership, how else do you attract a crowd? Are there any methods of drawing a crowd in one full round?

Here's more relevant info:Crowds: Urban streets are often full of people going about their daily lives. In most cases, it isn’t necessary to put every 1st-level commoner on the map when a fight breaks out on the city’s main thoroughfare. Instead just indicate which squares on the map con- tain crowds. If crowds see something obviously dangerous, they’ll move away at 30 feet per round at initiative count 0.
It takes 2 squares of movement to enter a square with crowds. The crowds provide cover for anyone who does so, enabling a Hide check and providing a bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves.
Directing Crowds: It takes a DC 15 Diplomacy check or DC 20 Intimidate check to convince a crowd to move in a particular direction, and the crowd must be able to hear or see the character making the attempt. It takes a full-round action to make the Diplo- macy check, but only a free action to make the Intimidate check.
If two or more characters are trying to direct a crowd in differ- ent directions, they make opposed Diplomacy or Intimidate checks to determine whom the crowd listens to. The crowd ignores everyone if none of the characters’ check results beat the DCs given above.

and prebattle rally checks to get the crowd hating the right guy fearlessly
The Prebattle Rally Check: Before the battle begins, the leader of a military unit can make a rally check to improve the troops’ morale condition. This is similar to a normal rally check but takes at least 1 minute to deliver. (The most stirring example of this is the “Band of Brothers” speech in Shakespeare’s Henry V.) This rally check affects everyone who can see and hear the leader. It cannot be retried, either by that leader or another character. In other words, a leader only gets one chance to inspire the troops with a speech. That’s why armies with charismatic generals try to get as many soldiers as possible to listen to a single speech.


It's only a DC 40 charisma check to get them from panicked to heartened

in which case druid 2: voice of the city and crowdwalker ACFs become quite neat.

And while we're at it, why not consider getting to rank 23 in the hollow shards, (city of stormreach) to make bluff checks in place of apparently any other check to convince, even experts, that you are correct about how to survive, heal, or knowledge: arcana a situation.

Clarifying question: is wild empathy a diplomacy check?

[Troacctid]

Clarifying question: is wild empathy a diplomacy check?

No it is not.

[Willie the Duck]

At first glance, I read this thread title as "Optimize this Feat 8: Seelie Court Noble Keebler (web)"
That would be a much more fun thread. :smallbiggrin:

[Jormengand]

Would wanderer's diplomacy (PHB2): social agility allow you to sub in a bluff check during combat?

Yes. It allows you to do two things: Temporarily alter a creature's attitude towards you, and use bluff in place of diplomacy against an unfriendly or less hostile creature as a standard action that takes no special penalites. The latter of these is of relevance to the SCNK feat.


Let's talk a minute: does silver tongue paired with this feat make crowd tactics worthwhile.
Silver tongue is an odd combination with this feat, because with silver tongue you can reduce people's attitude towards someone by badly failing a diplomacy check (so eat up your -20 penalties to do it as a standard action).


Besides leadership, how else do you attract a crowd? Are there any methods of drawing a crowd in one full round?

A mob (CS 124) is treated as a single creature, so you can use diplomacy on it as though it were just one creature.

[Jowgen]

So I got 9 points? I feel appropriately satisfied at that.


Yes. It allows you to do two things: Temporarily alter a creature's attitude towards you, and use bluff in place of diplomacy against an unfriendly or less hostile creature as a standard action that takes no special penalites. The latter of these is of relevance to the SCNK feat.

I did consider it for inclusion in my submission, since it would remove any ambiguity on what action(s) a bluff following a Silver-Tongued Diplomacy would take, but didn't for 2 reasons.

1. Wanderer's Diplomacy can only work with this if the Audience/Crowd is considered the "target", in spite of it not being the one's opposing with a check, as the feat specifies that the bluff can only be used to alter target attitude (and that the change remains for 1 minute). Although, if you can get it to work, then by RAW, after the minute passes, the attitude that you changed goes one step worse, actually fuelling the Seelie Court Noble Kelir mechanic.

2. Even if it works, it only works on things that aren't Hostile to you, seriously limiting its applicability in most fights. Combat use was my focus.


A mob (CS 124) is treated as a single creature, so you can use diplomacy on it as though it were just one creature.

So you could worsen people's attitude's towards a mob.

Wait a minute...

If there is some kind of requirement that, to form a mob, the composing creatures need to be friendly towards each other (or a similar attitude-dependent requirement), then I think you might be able to perform a "Cut direct" at the mob in order to worse the attidue of the creature's composing the mob towards the mob. If the people are no longer friendly with each each other the mob, or the notion of the mob itself, they should rightfully leave the mob. So the mob breaks up.

So after the question whether this has any chance of working, the next question is whether you could use the same approach to disperse swarms. :smallbiggrin:

[Jormengand]

Actually, thinking about it, nothing says that you don't alter the person's own attitude towards themself, so you can insult them so hard they commit suicide because they're hostile towards themself.

[Troacctid]

Characters don't have attitudes toward themselves, only toward other people.

[Jormengand]

Characters don't have attitudes toward themselves, only toward other people.

Nothing that says that.

[Troacctid]

Nothing that says that.
According to the DMG, by default, NPCs only have one attitude status: an NPC is friendly, indifferent, helpful, etc. This reflects their attitude toward the PCs. It additionally allows for NPCs to use Diplomacy or Charisma checks to influence the attitudes of other NPCs, and the mediation rules added in a later supplement also allow for a third party to influence the attitudes of NPCs toward each other.

However, there is no rules support for an NPC having an attitude toward itself.

[Jowgen]

I am with Troacctid on this for one very simply reason: You always count as your own ally for effects + An ally is defined as a creature Friendly to you. Thus, you are always (at least) friendly towards yourself.

[Jormengand]

However, there is no rules support for an NPC having an attitude toward itself.

There is if they're in a crowd and you have the SCNK feat. Otherwise the feat resolves in a way that doesn't exist.

[daremetoidareyo]

Relevant mob rules:

Mobs are large groups of people, bound together by anger, fear, and the desire to do violence. The mob mentality overrides normal behaviors, moral strictures, and even alignments of those who compose it. In most instances, a mob might have a particular target or subject that has aroused their anger, but anyone or anything who gets in their way is subject to attack.

A mob is treated as a single entity, much like a swarm, but is composed of Small, Medium, or Large creatures. A mob must be composed of creatures of the same type, and a riot that consists of creatures of different types is best modeled as two (or more) separate mobs forming a single encounter.

A mob can be an extremely difficult challenge, not merely because it is dangerous, but because it is often made up of innocent people. Some are swept away by violent emotions, but some might have legitimate griev- ances; others might actually be mystically compelled to action (this is particularly true of a throng of children). PCs should attempt to find some means other than violence—or at least other than lethal violence—for dispersing at least some mobs.

Reducing a mob to 0 hit points causes it to break up and disperse, leaving some members of it dead or injured; see below. A mob consists of 48 Small or Medium creatures, or 12 Large creatures. Larger groups are represented by multiple mobs. Most mobs are transient, lasting for at most 1d4+1 hours before dispersing.


A congregation of 48 creatures isn't necessarily a mob. The need to be "bound together by anger, fear, and the desire to do violence." A series of cut directs can get those unaffiliated folks to become a mob. If you are allowed to be a hearfire fanner, you can then grant weird feats that you possess or bonus fighter feats to that mob. And inspire their courage.

The question I have is:
If you have speak with animals at will, can you make a mob consisting of horses?...or cats?

[daremetoidareyo]

Does feinting count as "influencing others' opinions" (ie, changing their opinion about where your attack is going to come from)? Because you can get a few feints off in a round, whereas other diplomacy and bluff checks usually take at least a full round action. Get Improved Feint and something like Insightful Feint, or Scarlet Corsair, or even Hustle, and you can "cut direct" 3 times in a round, which would drop his allies down to hostile if they only started at friendly. To turn helpful or fanatical enemies against their leader, we'll need to amp up our action economy a bit, but it's a start.

I like this approach, but it is a bit in the weeds; 1 point for all of it.
"In addition, you may use your Bluff or Diplomacy skill to influence others' opinions." That tells me that you can substitute a diplomacy check for bluff in all of your feinting shenanigans. But i don't believe that the social situations clause is enough to count a feint as an influence of opinions.


Well, since you can get the feat for free if both your parents are fey, I guess the obvious thing to do is to play a duskling or killoren.


Seelie fey template from draconomicon too. 2 points. I didn't realize that this thing was basically free with the right race and backstory choices.


Just stack it with a debuffer bard, especially since it has no action specification. Use Haunting Melody to stack fear effects (up to -6 on the check) on multiple targets using any sort of action that allows perform checks (use Undersong to expand your Perform options), then Doomspeak as a non-action against the especially charismatic ones. Basically turn your enemies against each other; the less they trust each other to begin with, the worse their situation gets.

Make sure your CHA is really high as befits a good bard, because it will pull double duty--one for your main skill check/s and one for the multiple set-ups using Haunting Melody and Doomspeak, among other debuffs. Maybe add Dirgesinger too to round up the Haunting Sower of Dissension gimmick?

I see the utility of bard for controlling a crowd that you have turned against your opponent. And debuffing is helpful for the opponents opposing roll. Haunting melody 1 point, doomspeak 1 point. Bard 1 point

Bard Spells:
Adoration of the frightful (dragon magic) becomes a killer spell here. Same with cloak of hatred (HoH) cast on your opponent. Friendly face (RoD) gives you a +5 bonus if the opponent doesn't hate you. Insidious insight (RoE p.187) bumps it up +10 and lasts 1 day per level

Rule clarification: is there a mechanical relationship between fear status and NPC attitudes?


A crowd with a negative opinion in a court (Sharn: City of Towers) or a performance (Races of Stone) provides penalties for the defence or performer.

Good finds: 2 points


Alright then, Exemplar 5 seems to explicitly work.

excellent: 2 points


A Jumplomancer with Sudden Leap or Travel Devotion should be able to cut direct thrice in a round.

1 point.


I'd argue that the fact you're attempting something that works as Diplomacy resolves the issue of whether or not it's a social situation as well.

Agreed. This is going to be the understanding that governs the rest of the conversation.


Also, has anyone considered optimising it by - le gasp - using it how it's supposed to be used?

Shut your wicked mouth.



Because no-one actually has to hear the Cut Direct, you can stand at the back of a crowd making bluff or diplomacy checks under your breath, which means that in a duration of a five-minute speech (or even a five-round one, if your DM is being nice about how long bluff checks take) you can turn a fanatic horde of devotees, willing to give their lives to the speaker, into a vigilante mob willing to take risks to harm them.

Good catch on the assumption that hearing is necessary, where RAW it is not: 1 point.



Also, it's an easy bonus feat. Maybe mess with Dark Chaos Shuffle by having your parents repeatedly present you to the court to get your bonus feat? Or maybe, just having been presented is enough that you repeatedly regain your bonus feat each time you lose it to DCS.

1 point. You would have to pair it with some sort of amnesia induction of the court, but that can't be too hard.


No it is not.

rules clarification: 1 point


Yes. It allows you to do two things: Temporarily alter a creature's attitude towards you, and use bluff in place of diplomacy against an unfriendly or less hostile creature as a standard action that takes no special penalites. The latter of these is of relevance to the SCNK feat.

Silver tongue is an odd combination with this feat, because with silver tongue you can reduce people's attitude towards someone by badly failing a diplomacy check (so eat up your -20 penalties to do it as a standard action).

HAHA. Nice catch. 1 point


A mob (CS 124) is treated as a single creature, so you can use diplomacy on it as though it were just one creature.

Excellent discovery. Mobs seem easy to abuse here. 2 points there.

I'll catch up with the rest later

[Troacctid]

There is if they're in a crowd and you have the SCNK feat. Otherwise the feat resolves in a way that doesn't exist.
Changing the attitude of a crowd isn't the same thing as changing the attitude of every individual in the crowd, unless the crowd has a hive mind.


Rule clarification: is there a mechanical relationship between fear status and NPC attitudes?
Only in the sense that you can use Intimidate, a fear effect, to temporarily shift an NPC's attitude. Otherwise, no.

[Jormengand]

Rule clarification: is there a mechanical relationship between fear status and NPC attitudes?

Fanaticism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy) provides a will save bonus which includes against fear effects.

[daremetoidareyo]

spirit sense from heroes of horror allows you to speak to the recently dead spirits of folks and critters. If you can fill them with rage, is there some bangin undead guy that they can be turned into?

[Jormengand]

spirit sense from heroes of horror allows you to speak to the recently dead spirits of folks and critters. If you can fill them with rage, is there some bangin undead guy that they can be turned into?

Ghosts have unfinished business in life, so presumably if you turn them so angry at someone that they are specified to seek them out and do them harm, that'd do.

[daremetoidareyo]

Changing the attitude of a crowd isn't the same thing as changing the attitude of every individual in the crowd, unless the crowd has a hive mind.


Only in the sense that you can use Intimidate, a fear effect, to temporarily shift an NPC's attitude. Otherwise, no.

Adoration of the frightful is the only way to do it. Thanks for the clarifications 1 point.


Fanaticism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy) provides a will save bonus which includes against fear effects.

Good catch: 1 point


Ghosts have unfinished business in life, so presumably if you turn them so angry at someone that they are specified to seek them out and do them harm, that'd do.

And that's the final point in the round.

For a build optimized around this feat:
It appears that killoren or duskling Bard 1/binder 1/bard x with haunting melody, wanderer's diplomacy, undead empathy as feats. With the spells: adoration of the frightful (dragon magic), friendly face (RoD) insidious insight (RoE), & Voice of the Dragon (SpC).

Maybe go anima mage?

[daremetoidareyo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the tally is thus:

Jowgen 10
Troacctid 5
Jormengand 9
WhambamSam 4
ben-zayb 3

So, in spirit of the fancy fey how about pink italicized comic sans.


Jowgen, congratulations.

[Jormengand]

Aww, shucks. So close! :smalltongue:

[daremetoidareyo]

Aww, shucks. So close! :smalltongue:

I know. I can't wait for your perennial silver to turn to gold.

[Jowgen]

So, in spirit of the fancy fey how about pink italicized comic sans.


Jowgen, congratulations.

http://cdn-img.fimfiction.net/user/ajma-1431819028-6410-256

[Troacctid]

It might be cool to spotlight some feats from Dragon Magazine that don't see a lot of discussion. Some examples, maybe:

Arcane Focus (Dragon #351)
Betrayal of the Spirit Linked (Dragon #336)
Customize Domain (Dragon #325)
Dual-Plane Summons (Dragon #313)
Extra Divine Power (Dragon #343)
Footsteps of the Mage (Dragon #359)
Frenzied Hunt (Dragon #342)
Grappling Blast (Dragon #358)
Hamstring Attack (Dragon #313)
Hands of the Mage (Dragon #359)
Master of Mockery (Dragon #333)
Pressure Point Strike (Dragon #336)
Spell Graft (Dragon #337)
Supremely Confident (Dragon #335)
Trophy Hunter (Dragon #332)