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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Vow of the Forsaken (Player-friendly paladin who has broken their oath) [PEACH]



DracoKnight
2016-06-22, 03:28 AM
So, I think it's common knowledge that the Oathbreaker is CRAZY OP, and to me it doesn't make sense that breaking your Sacred Oath makes you evil. (Hehe, like say a drow made an Oath of Devotion to Lloth and broke it - now suddenly their abilities become even MORE evil.) With all of that in mind, I set about to making the Vow of the Forsaken (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/By6Eahpfe), for the Paladin who has lost their way. I'm not 100% sure if this is balanced, I tried to be a little more conservative in its creation - the only ability I'm really unsure about is their 15th level ability. Thanks for you help in advance! :smallsmile:

JNAProductions
2016-06-22, 03:31 AM
Once again, the Oath list reads like a cherry picking of all the best spells. Tone that down a little.

CD looks good.

Blade of Radiance/Shadow should allow for two weapons, in case of TWF Paladins.

Life and Death has the sack of rats issue. REALLY BAD.

Clarity of Purpose might actually be a little weak.

DracoKnight
2016-06-22, 03:45 AM
Once again, the Oath list reads like a cherry picking of all the best spells. Tone that down a little.

CD looks good.

Blade of Radiance/Shadow should allow for two weapons, in case of TWF Paladins.

Life and Death has the sack of rats issue. REALLY BAD.

Clarity of Purpose might actually be a little weak.

Okay, I'll try to find other spells (I was honestly trying to pick spells that would work thematically)

Glad the CD look good, since that was the Seraph's biggest issue :smallsmile:

I added a clause that will prevent the sack of rats issue.

How would you buff it? And does it need to be buffed with everything else (like Life and Death) that the Forsaken gets?

Also, I added the spell desolate blade to the write up, since that's a homebrew spell.

JNAProductions
2016-06-22, 03:48 AM
I don't think that really helps. It prevents the sack of rats issue, but not this issue:

Get a party member who is low on health.

Punch them down to 0 HP, gaining 20 HP for Lay On Hands.

Spend one point of Lay On Hands, healing them to 1.

Repeat, gaining 19 HP for LOH each time.

Do that at the start of the day till you have, like, 1900 HP. Should take about 20 minutes (200 rounds).

DracoKnight
2016-06-22, 03:49 AM
I don't think that really helps. It prevents the sack of rats issue, but not this issue:

Get a party member who is low on health.

Punch them down to 0 HP, gaining 20 HP for Lay On Hands.

Spend one point of Lay On Hands, healing them to 1.

Repeat, gaining 19 HP for LOH each time.

Do that at the start of the day till you have, like, 1900 HP. Should take about 20 minutes (200 rounds).

I'll specify hostile creatures then.

EDIT: specified. :smallcool:

JNAProductions
2016-06-22, 03:54 AM
I'll specify hostile creatures then.

EDIT: specified. :smallcool:

Okay. Should be good. I don't see any major abuse (other than doing that same thing to an enemy, which is pretty damn risky.)

DracoKnight
2016-06-22, 03:56 AM
Okay. Should be good. I don't see any major abuse (other than doing that same thing to an enemy, which is pretty damn risky.)

DM: "You've just killed the tarrasque, what do you want to do now?"

Forsaken Paladin: "I want to use a bonus action to store the hit points granted by Life and Death, and then on my next turn I will heal the Tarrasque to 1 HP."

Party: *kills Forsaken Paladin*

^ I could totally see this happening in my group xD

EDIT: do you still think that Clarity of Purpose needs buffing?

AvatarVecna
2016-06-22, 04:07 AM
I like how it focuses on Paladins who failed their oaths, but are still good people. The options presented in Core either completely hang on to their oaths, or abandon them completely in davor of being stupid evil.

I also like how this focus doesn't really make it too specific that it couldn't fit as somebody who fell from amy of the three core oaths.

JNAProductions
2016-06-22, 04:08 AM
DM: "You've just killed the tarrasque, what do you want to do now?"

Forsaken Paladin: "I want to use a bonus action to store the hit points granted by Life and Death, and then on my next turn I will heal the Tarrasque to 1 HP."

Party: *kills Forsaken Paladin*

^ I could totally see this happening in my group xD

EDIT: do you still think that Clarity of Purpose needs buffing?

Probably. Could do with a little damage buff, maybe?

DracoKnight
2016-06-22, 04:08 AM
I like how it focuses on Paladins who failed their oaths, but are still good people. The options presented in Core either completely hang on to their oaths, or abandon them completely in davor of being stupid evil.

I also like how this focus doesn't really make it too specific that it couldn't fit as somebody who fell from amy of the three core oaths.

This is high praise! Thank you! It means I accomplished my goal! :smallbiggrin:

DracoKnight
2016-06-22, 04:09 AM
Probably. Could do with a little damage buff, maybe?

Hmmmm...okay, so, like...maybe... 1d4 radiant or necrotic to your melee attacks?

Final Hyena
2016-06-22, 09:38 AM
This line which is in relation to Clarity of Purpose;

Once you use this feature, you must complete a long rest before you can use it again.
Is cut off.

Desolate blade is too strong, it's elemental weapon with an extra 3 damage a casting time of bonus instead of an action. The duration change from an hour to a minute isn't a big enough deal as it'll likely get lost within the minute anyway.

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-22, 10:43 AM
I'm going to echo AvatarVecna's comments :smallsmile:


Desolate blade is too strong, it's elemental weapon with an extra 3 damage a casting time of bonus instead of an action. The duration change from an hour to a minute isn't a big enough deal as it'll likely get lost within the minute anyway.

Not trying to argue, but I don't think it's actually stronger than elemental weapon. It's always going to grant +1 and 1d10 necrotic damage - it doesn't scale. And remember, as with everything a paladin has as far as spells go: it's competing for spell slots with Divine Smite.

EDIT: As far as total DPR goes, it's actually a LOT weaker than say, fireball. Fireball is only instantaneous, but it's a 40ft sphere that deals 8d6, or an average of 32 damage to EVERY creature in that sphere, or half of they succeed their saving throw. Let's say that there's about 4 enemies (the most common amount I've observed get hit by a fireball) inside that radius, and let's say 3 of them failed their save, but one of them succeeded, that's 112 damage. Over 1 minute - maintaining concentration, mind you - desolate blade will deal an average of 60 extra damage. That fireball is dealing almost TWICE the damage.

Final Hyena
2016-06-22, 10:59 AM
I don't think it's actually stronger than elemental weapon. It's always going to grant +1 and 1d10 necrotic damage - it doesn't scale. And remember, as with everything a paladin has as far as spells go: it's competing for spell slots with Divine Smite.
I believe that the reduced duration of an hour to a minute is cancelled out by the action to bonus action casting. Which leaves 1d10 damage over 1d4. It may not scale, but I don't think that justifies being stronger than a spell of the same level the same way I wouldn't support a fireball that does 10d6 damage that doesn't scale.
It doesn't have to be as good as smite when it offers the ability to force more damage into fewer turns.

Edit;

EDIT: As far as total DPR goes, it's actually a LOT weaker than say, fireball. Fireball is only instantaneous, but it's a 40ft sphere that deals 8d6, or an average of 32 damage to EVERY creature in that sphere, or half of they succeed their saving throw. Let's say that there's about 4 enemies (the most common amount I've observed get hit by a fireball) inside that radius, and let's say 3 of them failed their save, but one of them succeeded, that's 112 damage. Over 1 minute - maintaining concentration, mind you - desolate blade will deal an average of 60 extra damage. That fireball is dealing almost TWICE the damage.
Firstly 8d6 is 28 average, secondly it's not a paladin spell.

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-22, 11:01 AM
I believe that the reduced duration of an hour to a minute is cancelled out by the action to bonus action casting. Which leaves 1d10 damage over 1d4. It may not scale, but I don't think that justifies being stronger than a spell of the same level the same way I wouldn't support a fireball that does 10d6 damage that doesn't scale.
It doesn't have to be as good as smite when it offers the ability to force more damage into fewer turns.

I've added more to why I think it's balanced.

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-22, 11:04 AM
Firstly 8d6 is 28 average, secondly it's not a paladin spell.

I realize that fireball isn't a paladin spell, but for damage dealing spells, it's a decently universal one to run average DPR calcs from. And I'm pretty sure the average is 32. But that's beside the point. Even at an average of 28, it's still the better spell. I don't think desolate blade is OP.

Final Hyena
2016-06-22, 11:26 AM
I realize that fireball isn't a paladin spell, but for damage dealing spells, it's a decently universal one to run average DPR calcs from. And I'm pretty sure the average is 32. But that's beside the point. Even at an average of 28, it's still the better spell. I don't think desolate blade is OP.
Why is a spell that's not available to paladins good for calculations regarding paladins?
I could say that d8 is a decent universal hit dice to run averages from and call shenanigans on the barbarian.

1+2+3+4+5+6=21
divide by as many numbers
21/6=3.5
d6 = an average of 3.5
3.5 * 8 = 28

JBPuffin
2016-06-22, 11:42 AM
Why is a spell that's not available to paladins good for calculations regarding paladins?
I could say that d8 is a decent universal hit dice to run averages from and call shenanigans on the barbarian.

1+2+3+4+5+6=21
divide by as many numbers
21/6=3.5
d6 = an average of 3.5
3.5 * 8 = 28

Well, you're not exactly wrong - the d12 hit die is definitely above the average, which is probably d8, maybe d8+1. The idea is to balance the spell not against the paladin's other stuff, but to other damaging spells in general, so one doesn't arms race their homebrew into a state of overpoweredness on accident.

And that spell looks really good on my buddy's fighter right about now...*slurping noises of a pleased aboleth*

DracoKnight
2016-06-22, 12:00 PM
And that spell looks really good on my buddy's fighter right about now...*slurping noises of a pleased aboleth*

And this is why it's on the Warlock list in my group - not the Wizard list. Cuz EKs could abuse the hell out of it.

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-22, 04:19 PM
So, differing opinions on the spell aside, I think that you're solid on the abilities once you buff the capstone....and FYI, I'm chuckling to myself that you managed to make a WEAK paladin capstone.

DracoKnight
2016-06-22, 04:21 PM
So, differing opinions on the spell aside, I think that you're solid on the abilities once you buff the capstone....and FYI, I'm chuckling to myself that you managed to make a WEAK paladin capstone.

Well, I figured Evasion to ALL saving throw types would be REALLY good on a paladin - especially given that they get +CHA to their saving throws.

This combined with a mini-haste seemed phenomenal to me.

TheTeaMustFlow
2016-06-23, 06:43 AM
OHMYGOD! Jesus F*CKING Christ! If you want to play a gritty paladin play Vengeance. OR Multiclassin IS an option, Vengeance + War Cleric achieves the same f*cking feeling. You can stop homebrewing now! Jeez.:smallfurious:


I really hope no one else replies to this thread. Just to prove that no one truly cares about homebrew - AS IT SHOULD BE!


No! It doesn't! IT NEEDS TO BE DESTROYED! YOU NEED TO BE STOPPED!!! You're tainting the perfection of 5e!!


don't you dare encourage him!!!!!!!

By any chance, did Homebrew run over your dog?

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-23, 10:20 AM
By any chance, did Homebrew run over your dog?

If we acknowledge the trolls it'll only encourage them.

Final Hyena
2016-06-23, 10:48 AM
And this is why it's on the Warlock list in my group - not the Wizard list. Cuz EKs could abuse the hell out of it.
It only stipulates a range of 5 feet and a limitation of your weapon.
Someone else can use your weapon but that doesn't make it theirs.
Add in a stipulation about it being in your possession.

DracoKnight
2016-06-23, 12:01 PM
It only stipulates a range of 5 feet and a limitation of your weapon.
Someone else can use your weapon but that doesn't make it theirs.
Add in a stipulation about it being in your possession.

Ah, yes. That should be a clause, shouldn't it :smalltongue:

DracoKnight
2016-06-23, 01:28 PM
Updated the spell :smallbiggrin:

JNAProductions
2016-06-23, 01:33 PM
Updated the spell :smallbiggrin:

Thanks for letting us know.

khadgar567
2016-06-23, 01:48 PM
Ugh! Stop bumping your thread! Can't you tell that NO ONE CARES?! STOP PUBLISHING YOUR SH!TTY HOMEBREW!!! Honestly, you're just begging for attention, and it's repulsive! Nothing you make will ever be as good as anything Mike Mearles or Jeremy Crawford have made - that's including the Ranger UA article! You're seriously making nothing but sh*t! I've read ALL of your stuff and it's PURE CRAP! You should be sent to the Nine Hells, struck down by the gods!!
you know mate as some one who have trip to nine hells its pretty good place to have a holiday and asmodeus may employ guys like dracoknight with some goood payment so tyhanks for high prase mate

DracoKnight
2016-06-23, 01:55 PM
you know mate as some one who have trip to nine hells its pretty good place to have a holiday and asmodeus may employ guys like dracoknight with some goood payment so tyhanks for high prase mate

I certainly wouldn't mind employment as a D&D developer :smallbiggrin:


Thanks for letting us know.

Are there any other glaring issues? (or smaller, nitpicky ones?) :smallsmile:

JNAProductions
2016-06-23, 01:56 PM
With the exception of the 17th level spells, the Domain Spells are probably still too good.

I think it's pretty good though. The Heal on kill feature is still TECHNICALLY open to abuse, but any decent gaming group wouldn't bother with that.

Rerem115
2016-06-23, 02:51 PM
I know it's a bit late for me to chime in, but I'm of the opinion that Desolate Blade is too strong. While it does technically compete for a slot with any of the smites, it has considerably more power than other options available to paladins. Divine Smite does 4d8 damage at 3rd level and Blinding Smite does 3d8; by comparison Desolate Blade can do up to 20d10+20 damage, assuming that the paladin hits every round. While I know that it would be difficult to land that many attacks and it requires concentration, the spell grants +1 to hit, making it easier to stack the extra damage. As for the concentration? Paladins already get up to a +5 bonus for all saves, making maintaining concentration easier for them than any other class.

I would probably drop the damage to 1d8 and get rid of the attack/to-hit bonus. If you really are fond of that, however, the original spell's 1d4 would probably be best.

DracoKnight
2016-06-23, 03:26 PM
I know it's a bit late for me to chime in, but I'm of the opinion that Desolate Blade is too strong. While it does technically compete for a slot with any of the smites, it has considerably more power than other options available to paladins. Divine Smite does 4d8 damage at 3rd level and Blinding Smite does 3d8; by comparison Desolate Blade can do up to 20d10+20 damage, assuming that the paladin hits every round. While I know that it would be difficult to land that many attacks and it requires concentration, the spell grants +1 to hit, making it easier to stack the extra damage. As for the concentration? Paladins already get up to a +5 bonus for all saves, making maintaining concentration easier for them than any other class.

I would probably drop the damage to 1d8 and get rid of the attack/to-hit bonus. If you really are fond of that, however, the original spell's 1d4 would probably be best.

I'm not too worried about desolate blade since it's been a staple of our group for as long as I can remember - and I've seen it in action and used it multiple times. It has the potential for a lot of power, but I DM'd a game with a Paladin/Warlock multiclass (previously the only way to get it on a paladin) and I didn't find it to be game breaking.

Thank you for your concern, though! :smallsmile:

sajro
2016-06-24, 01:05 PM
This is as a concept alone a really good idea. I have seen other solutions to simply just ignore the oath or similar due to 5e's forgiveness. But this is a really cool idea to give people an option for oath-breakers that make sense for the players to play.

The channel divinity options seems balanced and cool, however the "Path is open" feature seems a bit odd. Not a major problem, I am just not sure why.

The 7th level feature seems cool. I however feel it unnecessary to specify the shape of the weapon. (In this case the spectral blade from a hilt)
Maybe just describe that it then takes a shadowy or radiant form instead? The reason is I can't get the image of a spectral warhammer out of my head and that seems weird. xD

Everything else seems cool, and fitting. Nice with many options that are actually opposing to further point to the fact that this is an oath for those who would stop at nothing to help the weak.

DracoKnight
2016-06-24, 01:26 PM
This is as a concept alone a really good idea. I have seen other solutions to simply just ignore the oath or similar due to 5e's forgiveness. But this is a really cool idea to give people an option for oath-breakers that make sense for the players to play.

The channel divinity options seems balanced and cool, however the "Path is open" feature seems a bit odd. Not a major problem, I am just not sure why.

The 7th level feature seems cool. I however feel it unnecessary to specify the shape of the weapon. (In this case the spectral blade from a hilt)
Maybe just describe that it then takes a shadowy or radiant form instead? The reason is I can't get the image of a spectral warhammer out of my head and that seems weird. xD

Everything else seems cool, and fitting. Nice with many options that are actually opposing to further point to the fact that this is an oath for those who would stop at nothing to help the weak.

Thank you for voicing your issues with the wording of the 7th level feature - I've cleaned it up :smallbiggrin:

Also, thank you for your general feedback, I'm glad this is something you like :smallsmile:

DESIGNER'S NOTE: the path is open comes from a session where it was almost a complete TPK (including the king of the realm who was played by a party member), except for the Oath of the Crown paladin. She laid several cloaks on the ground and fashioned them into a makeshift sled. She placed all of the party members on the cloaks, and began dragging them back through the dungeon. She got to the entrance just as a villain from her past (the assassin who murdered her parents) was locking the door shut. She dropped her makeshift sled (and left the king she was sworn to completely vulnerable to attack) and proceeded to attack this rogue out of sheer rage. The DM decided that this broke her oath, and that after this combat she would need to repent, or become an Oathbreaker.

She ended up killing him after 7 rounds of harrowing combat, and was at like, 3 hp when the fight ended. She asked the DM if she could expend her Channel Divinity to unlock the door (with -1 DEX, she's crap with thieve's tools), and he said "Sure." So divinely blowing open the door, she escaped.

Finding herself without remorse for abandoning the king to kill her adversary, the DM ruled she would become an Oathbreaker or a fighter, unless another option was presented to him. I made this for that purpose.

Another note: The Path is Open works on locks in general, so if you come across tortured slaves, or you party has been incarcerated, you could free them - which fits with the theme of the Forsaken.

sajro
2016-06-24, 01:34 PM
Well that definitely makes it much much more clear as to the reason behind the option, and with the fact that it works on all locks, makes it much more thematically fitting. I am happy tou were that quickly to respond, with such a fulfilling answer. :)

And the new 7th features wording, is better in my opinion and objectively it is shorter which is a good thing. Less to read, less to puzzle about. xD

DracoKnight
2016-06-24, 01:40 PM
Well that definitely makes it much much more clear as to the reason behind the option, and with the fact that it works on all locks, makes it much more thematically fitting. I am happy tou were that quickly to respond, with such a fulfilling answer. :)

I'm glad I was able to clarify for you, and that you're now satisfied with the option :smallsmile: I try to respond in a swift manner with I have homebrew up for review :smallsmile:


And the new 7th features wording, is better in my opinion and objectively it is shorter which is a good thing. Less to read, less to puzzle about. xD

Less confusion is always better! :smallbiggrin:

DracoKnight
2016-06-26, 12:53 AM
Any more comments, questions, concerns?

DracoKnight
2016-12-01, 10:18 AM
I made a couple of tweaks that reflect how things needed to be changed after play in an actual campaign.

Zeros
2016-12-01, 03:01 PM
A little thing, and I'm far from the most experienced in this I'm basically just getting my feet wet with looking at other's homebrew so feel free to correct my thinking...

Anyhow this particular 'oath' has a lot of stacking damage... 1d8 from desolate blade, another 1d8 from Forsaken blow, 1d4 from Clarity of Purpose, with the option to put more damage on top from both Divine Smite and Life and Death.

Admittedly thats a lot to burn in one minute, but you don't see a lot of options to pull that out. You can end up dealing on an average, using Divine Smite w/ Life and Death, more than 76 damage with the singular attack and you could do another one at -25 damage right after. (2d6+2d8+1d4+6d8+25+6)

Ugganaut
2016-12-03, 08:58 AM
Hate the idea of breaking your oath means you've turned completely evil, so love this idea.

I like the flavor, and the spell selection. Desolate Blade seems unnecessary, but not OP. Personally I'd take off the +1hit/damage, the d8 extra damage on every hit no matter the target is good enough imo.

I do agree with Zeros, that this does allow too much stacking. Desolate Blade takes the Hex concentration slot, so don't have much issue there. Forsaken Blow is the big one for me, I wouldn't allow that. No concentration, increase to max damage at low levels. Vow of Enmity grants advantage to one target only, which only increases reliability, not max damage. Same with Sacred Weapon. I like the "1's are treated as 2's" for that reason, the max damage isn't effected, only average. Personally I'd go a Sacred Weapon style, with the +Cha to hit, and 1's treated as 2's on weapon damage rolls.

Life and Death I liked. Felt a little clunky, but good. I'd make it a reaction on Crit/Kill, and have it recharge the healing pool, and do +1d8 on next attack before the end of your next turn. Its once per short rest, so can't be abused(but brings it down from 25 possible extra). The healing isn't a free action, requires another action to use Lay on Hands, which I think is a good thing.

Clarity of Purpose, I didn't think the 1d4 extra damage was necessary, but also at this level its not going to overpower anything either I think.

Overall I really like it, nice work DK :)

Edit: Just realized how late I am replying to this.

DanyBallon
2016-12-03, 11:29 AM
Late to the party, but I would do a simple modification to the Path is Open Channel Divinity feature; I would ad the same text in the Knock spell where as it provoke a "loud Knock, audible as far as 300 feet".

This line was added in order to prevent magic from being better than mundane skills. And I think it should apply to this feature as well.

Sariel Vailo
2016-12-12, 05:42 AM
i wanted to play a drow who had forsaken lolth so this fits im not bad and even vengence fits about only so welll my dm had me pick a new god.and iwas like can i say i swore an oath of vengence thats why i can do this. he a first time dm said no