Why Not Ask The Oracle, Duh?

[Trillium]

Okay, I know the answer, which is probably "it's undramatic" and "Xykon doesn't care enough" and "Xykon likes killing stuff enough to not care about time", but still...

Why not ask the Oracle which gate hides the Gate? Now, we know Oracle doesn't really want to meet Xykon (last time he took a vacation when he foresaw Xykon coming), but then again Xykon got a high-level Cleric with him. Now, Dark One is not omniscient, but if mere human souls can look from afterlife and watch specific mortal, Dark One should really be able to track the Oracle, tell Redcloak (who specifically said he has a few divinations for verbal link with his deity), and then Xykon can just teleport there. Surely, Dark One cares enough to provide such help to Redcloak, no?
Oracle may even be willing to collaborate this time, since Serini is a halfling, and what wouldn't a kobold do to piss a halfling off?

As for Xykon not caring enough... Xykon can be tricked.

[hroþila]

Whatever Xykon does, the Oracle will know in advance and act accordingly; that's his whole thing.

Anyway, the Dark One probably can't do what you're proposing.

[Trillium]

Whatever Xykon does, the Oracle will know in advance and act accordingly; that's his whole thing.

Anyway, the Dark One probably can't do what you're proposing.

Ye, Oracle will sure know, but what can he DO? Even Cloister wouldn't hide him from Xykon & Redcloak. He's got nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, where they cannot reach him.

[Yendor]

Whatever Xykon does, the Oracle will know in advance and act accordingly; that's his whole thing.

Specifically, while the Oracle can't know everything, he can check if and when Xykon will show up, and make sure he's away, because dude is frickin' scary.

And since the Oracle gets his power from Tiamat, she can refuse to give the information out.

[hroþila]

Ye, Oracle will sure know, but what can he DO? Even Cloister wouldn't hide him from Xykon & Redcloak. He's got nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, where they cannot reach him.
He's got the whole world and many other planes to run. He just needs to keep it up until Xykon and Redcloak rightly realize they're wasting their time.

[Dark Matter]

I think Xykon already tried to find him once and he was "out".

[Keltest]

I think Xykon already tried to find him once and he was "out".

You think correctly. The Oracle wants nothing to do with Xykon.

[Quild]

In the third panel of #1039, Redcloak explains that his god can't point him to something he himself doesn't know.

Tiamat probably doesn't know either. Do the Oracle can't know.

[dancrilis]

You think correctly. The Oracle wants nothing to do with Xykon.

Well specifically Tiamet's followers like to stay out of world politics - which providing Xykon with a gate location may directly impact.

On a more clear note even if Redcloak uses Gate to summon the Oracle (which I would see as the easiest method of arranging a meeting) the Oracle gets his powers from Tiamet who Redcloak would assume due to the God's blackout on the gates would not be providing the information to him.

[Roland Itiative]

In the third panel of #1039, Redcloak explains that his god can't point him to something he himself doesn't know.

Tiamat probably doesn't know either. Do the Oracle can't know.

The mechanics of how the Oracle works are pretty unclear. Did Tiamat know Durkon would die before going back to dwarven lands? Did she know Belkar would come back and kill the Oracle? The way the Oracle works seems too omniscient to fit with the somewhat more mundane gods we see. Honestly, it's better to just accept it as is, and not ask too many questions (ironically).

And that goes for the possibility in question here. The page where the Oracle is shown to take a vacation specifically to avoid Team Evil serves as a message from the Giant to the readers. The message is "Team Evil doesn't have access to the Oracle". We can try to guess how a game of cat and mouse would work between them, but that would be pointless. Specially since the Oracle seems to be omniscient enough to always be one step ahead. If Xykon or Redcloak manage to track him and then teleport there, he'll know it before they do it, so he can just go away.

[Yendor]

Well specifically Tiamet's followers like to stay out of world politics - which providing Xykon with a gate location may directly impact.

Never mind politics. Studies have shown that being in Xykon's vicinity can be extremely hazardous to your health.

[hroþila]

Guys, the OP acknowledges that Xykon already tried to find the Oracle once. The Oracle avoiding Xykon back then is largely irrelevant here.

As for the Oracle's powers, I always assumed they come from Tiamat, but that that doesn't mean Tiamat herself sees as much as he does. Like in many real-world mythologies, I think Fate is an independent force.

[Roland Itiative]

Guys, the OP acknowledges that Xykon already tried to find the Oracle once. The Oracle avoiding Xykon back then is largely irrelevant here.
Not quite. Team Evil being unable to find him then shows us something, the Oracle doesn't want to help Team Evil. And really, there's no evidence that the Oracle changed his mind about this since then. So they can't ask the Oracle now because the Oracle doesn't want to be found, same as before.


As for the Oracle's powers, I always assumed they come from Tiamat, but that that doesn't mean Tiamat herself sees as much as he does. Like in many real-world mythologies, I think Fate is an independent force.
That's how I see it too.

[hroþila]

Not quite. Team Evil being unable to find him then shows us something, the Oracle doesn't want to help Team Evil. And really, there's no evidence that the Oracle changed his mind about this since then. So they can't ask the Oracle now because the Oracle doesn't want to be found, same as before.
Yes, of course. What I mean is that the problem with the OP's theory is not that he missed that scene - he didn't.

[Grey Watcher]

We don't know that the Dark One's View-From-Above (Below?) is as powerful as the one at the foot of the Lawful Good Afterlife Mountain. Remember, the Dark One is basically struggling to get by on the fringes of the divine community, so his powers don't necessarily have the reach and scope that other deities' powers do.

Add to that that the Oracle might be specifically blessed by Tiamat with Can't-Be-Found-Unless-He-Wants-To-Be.

And finally, as soon as the other Gods found out the Dark One was feeding direct hints to his High Priest on how to find the exact location of the last Gate, the other Gods are liable to move in to stymie that effort ASAP (even if the vote to unmake the world ultimately goes in favor of "Yes", they want that last Gate up and working so they can do so in a controlled manner).

[NerdyKris]

I thought it might be an issue of not being able to point out the gates, but Roy's question was worded as Xykon's distance from the gates themselves, which means the Oracle can make statements on their location. Although without knowing something about the location within the mountain, simply asking "which door leads to the gate" might not be helpful at all. How are they numbering the doors? How does it lead to the gate? Does he mean it leads towards the gate and is closest, but you have to do something in the other rooms first?

So the vagueness of any question being asked would render the Oracle useless, assuming he doesn't just leave whenever Xykon shows up, which was implied to be the situation last time. Xykon isn't stupid, he probably deduced that the Oracle will simply not be there if he keeps showing up. Or he did try a couple times during that year and he was gone every time.

Or more likely, he only heard rumors of this Oracle, the Oracle wasn't there when he went, so why go back there and keep chasing a rumor that might not actually exist? The memory charm would have meant he filled in the gaps with what he thinks happened, so if no question was answered, he might believe that he found nothing there.

[Lord Torath]

The mechanics of how the Oracle works are pretty unclear. Pixie Kobold Dust (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html). :smalltongue: Sorry, it had to be done.

I was going to cite the general black-out on information on the gates from the gods, but everyone else already did. The Oracle didn't tell Roy where any of the gates where, only which one Xykon would be at next. If the Oracle hadn't been "Out", Xykon would be so mad at being denied an answer that the Oracle would likely find himself dead and on the receiving end of a Trap the Soul spell.

[Kish]

Yeah, what the Oracle can and cannot do looks pretty clear to me. It only gets unclear when people want to dissect why he can do it and bring Tiamat into it instead of accepting "Kobold dust."

(Or, of course, when they want his prophecies to be loophole-able so that certain predicted-dead characters can survive without it being a ripoff.)

[NerdyKris]

Pixie Kobold Dust (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html). :smalltongue: Sorry, it had to be done.

I was going to cite the general black-out on information on the gates from the gods, but everyone else already did. The Oracle didn't tell Roy where any of the gates where, only which one Xykon would be at next. If the Oracle hadn't been "Out", Xykon would be so mad at being denied an answer that the Oracle would likely find himself dead and on the receiving end of a Trap the Soul spell.

Looking back, I'd assume the question he wanted to ask was actually "Where is my phylactery?", not anything about the gates, as it is shown before he got it back, and Redcloak mentions that his errand will be short as he's in danger without his phylactery. The Oracle still had a good reason to stall him, since he would have arrived at the gate days or even a week before the Order did.

But I still think we're applying meta knowledge that Xykon doesn't have. If he never asked a question, then he doesn't remember anything, and his memory would fill in the blanks as not finding anything, like Haley, Celia, and Belkar did. Which in his case means it's a waste of time to go chasing after someone that he knows nothing about and might not even exist.

[Kurald Galain]

Redcloak probably doesn't trust the oracle (because he gets his powers from Tiamat, and all gods are essentially enemies of the Dark One). And since Redcloak has his ways of manipulating Xykon, the odds are pretty good that Team Evil won't be going there.

[NerdyKris]

How would Redcloak know that the Oracle gets his powers from Tiamat? Nobody on team evil has met the Oracle, and even if they did they wouldn't remember anything about him aside from the answer to a question they asked. In fact, the only member who's gone to the Oracle's tower doesn't remember anything other than not finding him. Which means going back to check would be a waste of time.

[Kurald Galain]

How would Redcloak know that the Oracle gets his powers from Tiamat?

Because the Dark One would tell him that.

[NerdyKris]

Why would that even be a thing the Dark One would tell him? Why would it matter? We aren't given any indication that his prophecies are manipulated by Tiamat, since he gives a prophecy that directly harms her followers. I feel like a lot of people are trying to think up convoluted explanations for why Team Evil doesn't go to an Oracle they don't even know actually exists.

Why wouldn't the explanation be as simple as "Xykon went and found nothing, so they think there's no Oracle"? It's not like they'd be able to track him down if he went on a vacation, since they don't know what he looks like or even what species he is.

[Delta357]

Also in the strip where is shows Xykon trying to see the oracle, he is alone. It might be redcloak doesn't know about the oracle, and Xykon would prefer to keep it that way.

[DaggerPen]

Given Xykon's fondness for soul trapping and the Oracle's for cheating death, I'm pretty sure the Oracle is MUCH MORE motivated to avoid Xykon than Xykon is to find a rumor of some oracle he went to check out once and may not even remember not finding.

[Takver]

Would someone be so kind as to link to the strip where Xykon tries to see the Oracle?

[Kish]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html

[Princess Tracy]

Ye, Oracle will sure know, but what can he DO? Even Cloister wouldn't hide him from Xykon & Redcloak. He's got nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, where they cannot reach him.

I mean that's very specifically not true at all. Xykon doesn't know any epic-level divinations, and in fact it's been a plot point before that he can't pierce his own cloister effect. Remember O-chul, Tsukiko said they would have no luck retrieving him because he was there last time Xykon refreshed the cloister and would be impossible to find by any magic they possessed for weeks to come.

So as far as him very purposefully avoiding Xykon and having the omniscience to always have the right magical effect made for him ahead of time, he could have hiked down to Azure City for a bit to get in the radius of the cloister last time it was renewed. I'm not saying he did do that, but its one example of magic he could very easily have prepared to defend himself even if Xykon and Redcloak thought to pursue him. If Xykon cared that much about the Oracle and had that much faith in his powers, AND had it in the power of himself and his army to find him, he would have caught him when he was still trying to retrieve his phylactery to find out where it was.

[Jasdoif]

Why not ask the Oracle which gate hides the Gate?:redcloak: "Which door hides the Gate?"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/oracle.gif "All of them."
:redcloak: "What?"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/oracle.gif "They all hide the Gate. Why do you think you haven't found it yet?"

[Yendor]

:redcloak: "Which door hides the Gate?"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/oracle.gif "All of them."
:redcloak: "What?"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/oracle.gif "They all hide the Gate. Why do you think you haven't found it yet?"

You know, I already thought this might be true in the sense that they have to clear every door, but it also works in the sense that each door contributes to hiding the Gate. That's a great twist.

[Jasdoif]

You know, I already thought this might be true in the sense that they have to clear every door, but it also works in the sense that each door contributes to hiding the Gate. That's a great twist.It's even true if the Gate isn't actually behind any of the doors for whatever reason, since the presence of all the doors focuses so much searching behind them. (This is the same Oracle who answered "Where is Xykon?" with "In his throne room" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html), after all.)

[Ruck]

Guys, the OP acknowledges that Xykon already tried to find the Oracle once. The Oracle avoiding Xykon back then is largely irrelevant here.
It seems entirely relevant whether or not the OP wants it to be.


Redcloak probably doesn't trust the oracle (because he gets his powers from Tiamat, and all gods are essentially enemies of the Dark One).
Nope; read SoD. Tiamat is one of the few gods who defends the Dark One.

[hroþila]

It seems entirely relevant whether or not the OP wants it to be.
Sigh. It's not.

Now, we know Oracle doesn't really want to meet Xykon (last time he took a vacation when he foresaw Xykon coming)

But the Oracle doesn't really want to meet Xykon! Last time he took a vacation when he foresaw Xykon coming!
See what I mean?

The OP then argues that Xykon could catch the Oracle regardless if he put all his resources to use, including Redcloak and the Dark One. That's the bit we need to refute. And it's very easy to do, and many of us have done it just fine.

[Peelee]

The OP then argues that Xykon could catch the Oracle regardless if he put all his resources to use, including Redcloak and the Dark One. That's the bit we need to refute. And it's very easy to do, and many of us have done it just fine.

Well, honestly, the easiest way to refute it is to say, "But the Oracle doesn't really want to meet Xykon! Last time he took a vacation when he foresaw Xykon coming!"

The question answers itself. It really needs no refutation. The argument that Xykon could catch the Oracle regardless ignores the idea that the Oracle could avoid Xykon regardless, which we already know to be true.

[Ruck]

Sigh. It's not.


See what I mean?

The OP then argues that Xykon could catch the Oracle regardless if he put all his resources to use, including Redcloak and the Dark One. That's the bit we need to refute. And it's very easy to do, and many of us have done it just fine.


Well, honestly, the easiest way to refute it is to say, "But the Oracle doesn't really want to meet Xykon! Last time he took a vacation when he foresaw Xykon coming!"

The question answers itself. It really needs no refutation. The argument that Xykon could catch the Oracle regardless ignores the idea that the Oracle could avoid Xykon regardless, which we already know to be true.

Yep, this. Or, phrased another way, "If Xykon can catch the Oracle no matter what, why didn't he do so the last time he was looking for him?"

[Grey Watcher]

You know, I already thought this might be true in the sense that they have to clear every door, but it also works in the sense that each door contributes to hiding the Gate. That's a great twist.

I don't know why, but I suddenly had in my head "This is the architectural equivalent of the "I'm Spartacus!" scene."

[Quild]

Not sure if I shouldn't put Roy's smiley here but:

:redcloak: If we were to numerotate the doors one per one from 1 to XXX starting from the highest one and ending with the lowest one, and from the northernmost to the southernmost in case of doors at the same height, which door or sequence of door should be opened to find "the Gate"


"The Gate" could be replaced for something more specific.

[Kish]

Well, honestly, the easiest way to refute it is to say, "But the Oracle doesn't really want to meet Xykon! Last time he took a vacation when he foresaw Xykon coming!"

The question answers itself. It really needs no refutation. The argument that Xykon could catch the Oracle regardless ignores the idea that the Oracle could avoid Xykon regardless, which we already know to be true.
And indeed, going on from "Xykon could catch the Oracle (which he manifestly couldn't)" to "the Oracle would then give the answer he was trying to avoid giving" fails yet again: the Oracle's options if Xykon arriving at the same place where he was was truly inevitable would go through "spin a story that would result in Xykon and Redcloak going somewhere far away from him and leaving him unharmed" and "arrange for a True Resurrection sometime after Xykon has been destroyed and commit suicide" before they arrived at "act like a prophecy vending machine."

[theNater]

Not sure if I shouldn't put Roy's smiley here but:

:redcloak: If we were to numerotate the doors one per one from 1 to XXX starting from the highest one and ending with the lowest one, and from the northernmost to the southernmost in case of doors at the same height, which door or sequence of door should be opened to find "the Gate"
"The sequence designed by Serini to allow access to the gate"

[ChillerInstinct]

Yep, this. Or, phrased another way, "If Xykon can catch the Oracle no matter what, why didn't he do so the last time he was looking for him?"

Pretty much this. Xykon might be reckless and not think everything through, but I think the odds of him, say, commanding Redcloak to try a divination spell off-panel (which Redcloak had no reason to deny him, since anything that helps him find and secure a Gate works in HIS favour too) is very high. And that's assuming that Redcloak didn't think to try that himself, which is also not particularly unlikely.

At the end of the day, you're looking at an Epic Sorcerer and a very high-leveled Cleric, which combined have no shortage of ways to track down the most likely candidate to give them what they want and squeeze the intel out of him, one way or another (Charming, dominating, turning him into an undead and controlling him, not to mention any non-magical means of coaxing him). Seeing as doing so would be much more efficient than what they're currently doing, the fact that they haven't done so implies one of two things: either they never thought of it (unlikely seeing as Xykon went to find him at least ONCE), or they simply CAN'T.

[halfeye]

Why is everyone assuming the magical forgetfulness works on Xykon?

I don't think he can meet the Oracle when the Oracle doesn't want to be met, but I'm not at all convinced that he doesn't know where the Oracle's lair is.

[Peelee]

Why is everyone assuming the magical forgetfulness works on Xykon?

I don't think he can meet the Oracle when the Oracle doesn't want to be met, but I'm not at all convinced that he doesn't know where the Oracle's lair is.

Because we have no reason to assume he isn't.

Also, what good is knowing of the Oracle's lair if, so far as Xykon is concerned, he's never there?

[ChillerInstinct]

Why is everyone assuming the magical forgetfulness works on Xykon?

I don't think he can meet the Oracle when the Oracle doesn't want to be met, but I'm not at all convinced that he doesn't know where the Oracle's lair is.

Honestly I never even considered the forgetfulness one way or the other. If if DOES work on Xykon, then all he'd remember is that he never got an answer from the Oracle (the same way Haley remembered she never got an "on-the-books" answer when they went with Roy's body, but forgot that the reason WHY was because Belkar stabbed him), which means Xykon would either a) assumed he killed the Oracle, because that's totally a Xykon move, b) the Oracle wasn't there (see: why hasn't he used scrying or Redcloak's divinations to find out where he is and just teleport there in the first place), or c) the Oracle was unable to help them (note: not UNWILLING, seeing as Xykon and Redcloak have all sorts of ways to make him talk). If it doesn't work, see b) above.

Regardless of that, however, the fact remains that Team Evil WOULD know that Xykon never got an answer either way, and almost certainly would spend the resources trying to hunt him down if they could, when facing down the barrel of possibly needing three+ months just to find the Gate (even if Xykon's just THAT arrogant and convinced that luck will benefit Team Evil sooner rather than later, Redcloak would have no reason to NOT try divinations on his part).

[Kish]

"The sequence designed by Serini to allow access to the gate"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/oracle.gif "Are you sure you don't want to just ask 'Where is Kraagor's Gate?' It's not my fault if the plot sequence gets screwed up..."

[Cracklord]

It seems entirely relevant whether or not the OP wants it to be.


Nope; read SoD. Tiamat is one of the few gods who defends the Dark One.

She also has a stake in the fiends plan - whatever that is (particularly now that Nale is seemingly out of the picture).

You know. In exchange for a genocide event perpetuated upon the chromatic dragons. And the Fiends aren't playing the same game as Xykon.

[Ruck]

She also has a stake in the fiends plan - whatever that is (particularly now that Nale is seemingly out of the picture).

You know. In exchange for a genocide event perpetuated upon the chromatic dragons. And the Fiends aren't playing the same game as Xykon.

Right, I forget about the IFCC occasionally. They have to show up again at some point, but I have no idea what their plan is or how (or if) we'll find out.

[Trillium]

I mean that's very specifically not true at all. Xykon doesn't know any epic-level divinations, and in fact it's been a plot point before that he can't pierce his own cloister effect. Remember O-chul, Tsukiko said they would have no luck retrieving him because he was there last time Xykon refreshed the cloister and would be impossible to find by any magic they possessed for weeks to come.

So as far as him very purposefully avoiding Xykon and having the omniscience to always have the right magical effect made for him ahead of time, he could have hiked down to Azure City for a bit to get in the radius of the cloister last time it was renewed. I'm not saying he did do that, but its one example of magic he could very easily have prepared to defend himself even if Xykon and Redcloak thought to pursue him. If Xykon cared that much about the Oracle and had that much faith in his powers, AND had it in the power of himself and his army to find him, he would have caught him when he was still trying to retrieve his phylactery to find out where it was.

I figured out that either Redcloak is Epic already (he was level 17 or 18 in Azure City, and unlike Xykon likely gets experience from majority of the monsters, so his divinations might work. Or divine sight is inherently Epic.



:redcloak: "Which door hides the Gate?"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/oracle.gif "All of them."
:redcloak: "What?"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/oracle.gif "They all hide the Gate. Why do you think you haven't found it yet?"

Good point. And since the Oracle hasn't scheduled True Resurrection with his lizard buddies it is unlikely such a dialogue will occur.

[Morquard]

I figured out that either Redcloak is Epic already (he was level 17 or 18 in Azure City, and unlike Xykon likely gets experience from majority of the monsters, so his divinations might work. Or divine sight is inherently Epic.
Just because you're epic and cast a divination spell does not make it Epic Divination.
For that you need an Epic Spellslot, need to have an Epic Divination spell (which you likely have to research yourself). For that you need at least 1 feat, I believe, but my Epic rules are kinda spotty, so that may be wrong. However it involves more than just "be epic".

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think I'll go with the general consensus of this thread that even if the Oracle would be found he most likely either wouldn't give an answer at all or he would give an answer in an unhelpful fashion. "Where is Kraagor's Gate?" "In Monster Hollow" or something along those lines.