Multiclassing

[Ohdin]

Hey guys I'm new to 5e. I want to multi class druid with rouge. What would be the Pros and Cons of each. I have to follow AL rules. Here is what I have right now:
Race: Wood Elf
Str: 8
Dex: 14 (+2)
Con: 10
Int: 14
Wis: 16 (+1)
Cha: 13
I'm also thinking about lvling rouge to get arcane trickster. But should I lvl rouge first or druid?

[JellyPooga]

Rogue is a great MC for Druid (well, it's a great dip for anyone, IMO, but that's another story!).

Expertise is something you'll need to make some choices about;
- in Animal Handling, Nature and Survival you become a *true* master of the wilds.
- in Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception and Stealth you're a Wild Shaping master of disguise, scouting and physical challenges.
- in other skills, you can introduce other aspects to your character and make them worthwhile (Arcana and Religion for a scholar, perhaps? Or Sleight of Hand and Deception for a charlatan?). You've set up your mental stats to make these non-Class aspects totally viable.

- I would recommend Starting as a Druid at level 1, both because Wis Saves > Dex Saves and because of fluff/backstory.
- Go straight for Moon Druid 2, for Wild-Shaping shenanigans, without doubt.
- At that point, I'd dip my first level of Rogue, for Expertise and the extra Skill Proficiency. Your character concept is by-and-large now fully established.
- Druid 3/Rogue 1, for 2nd level spells, should now be a priority.
- After that I'd probably spring for Druid 3/Rogue 6; your Wild Shape doesn't improve significantly after 2nd level, but Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge and more Expertise, not to mention Archetype features, are all solid gold. By going Arcane Trickster, at Character Level 9 you'll be casting 3rd level spells; not great, but not too shabby either.
- Following this, I'd then focus entirely on Druid, for a final build of Druid 14/Rogue 6...the higher level spellcasting and eventual access to Elemental Wild Shape forms is far more useful than anything Rogue offers as a MC.

[Ohdin]

I am aiminmore towards the wild shaping feature while applying the rouge abilities, cunning strike, sneak attack, etc. And also have that spellcasting ability. I personally feel I should go rouge first just to get the weapon proficiency first then lvl druid to four then lvl rouge to 6

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I am aiminmore towards the wild shaping feature while applying the rouge abilities, cunning strike, sneak attack, etc. And also have that spellcasting ability. I personally feel I should go rouge first just to get the weapon proficiency first then lvl druid to four then lvl rouge to 6

Firstly, the word is Rogue. Rouge is a kind of make-up and the French word for red.

Sneak Attack cannot be used with the natural weapons of a Wild Shape form, since they are not finesse weapons (this is the case even if said weapons use dexterity, since 'uses dexterity' is different from 'finesse' - bloody silly, I know, but the designers have clarified that that was in fact their intent). You might be able to get a DM to houserule it otherwise, but I wouldn't rely on it. You could use it with a form that can either use weapons or has an attack that counts as using a ranged weapon, but I don't think there are any of those available for Wild Shape with the exception of the Ape, which is rather weak).

By 'cunning strike', I assume you mean Cunning Action? That does indeed work with Wild Shape, though I don't see any especially exciting synergies. Still, it's a very solid ability for any class.

I would indeed recommend starting out as a a Rogue. Wis saves are probably better than Dex saves, but there's not a great deal in it, and starting as a Rogue gets you both weapon proficiencies and an extra skill.

My personal recommendation for your overall build would be either 2 levels of Rogue and the rest Druid, or 1 Rogue/ 2 Druid/ the rest Rogue. both classes offer their most synergistic abilities in the first two levels, but otherwise you'd get more out of picking one and sticking to it. A Druid will benefit from more skills, Expertise and Cunning Action, while a Rogue will benefit from low-level Druid spells and Wild Shape (not so much for combat as for utility - A Rogue can benefit quite a bit from turning into a rat or a hawk...)

[Ninja_Prawn]

What's all this 'wis saves are better than dex'? I'm pretty sure dex saves come up more often... not only are there 30% more abilities that call for dex saves (according to Kryx (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20885903&postcount=1)), but I feel like the dex saves are disproportionately applied to PCs; they tend to be AoE attacks, traps and general dungeoneering, while wis saves are mostly enchantments, charms and fear effects (which rob players of agency, so ought not to be used as often).

[R.Shackleford]

Firstly, the word is Rogue. Rouge is a kind of make-up and the French word for red.

Sneak Attack cannot be used with the natural weapons of a Wild Shape form, since they are not finesse weapons (this is the case even if said weapons use dexterity, since 'uses dexterity' is different from 'finesse' - bloody silly, I know, but the designers have clarified that that was in fact their intent). You might be able to get a DM to houserule it otherwise, but I wouldn't rely on it. You could use it with a form that can either use weapons or has an attack that counts as using a ranged weapon, but I don't think there are any of those available for Wild Shape with the exception of the Ape, which is rather weak).

By 'cunning strike', I assume you mean Cunning Action? That does indeed work with Wild Shape, though I don't see any especially exciting synergies. Still, it's a very solid ability for any class.

I would indeed recommend starting out as a a Rogue. Wis saves are probably better than Dex saves, but there's not a great deal in it, and starting as a Rogue gets you both weapon proficiencies and an extra skill.

My personal recommendation for your overall build would be either 2 levels of Rogue and the rest Druid, or 1 Rogue/ 2 Druid/ the rest Rogue. both classes offer their most synergistic abilities in the first two levels, but otherwise you'd get more out of picking one and sticking to it. A Druid will benefit from more skills, Expertise and Cunning Action, while a Rogue will benefit from low-level Druid spells and Wild Shape (not so much for combat as for utility - A Rogue can benefit quite a bit from turning into a rat or a hawk...)

A Rouge Rogue would be a Rogue that has the "Friends" cantrip.

Then you could call them THE Rouge.

[JellyPooga]

What's all this 'wis saves are better than dex'? I'm pretty sure dex saves come up more often... not only are there 30% more abilities that call for dex saves (according to Kryx (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20885903&postcount=1)), but I feel like the dex saves are disproportionately applied to PCs; they tend to be AoE attacks, traps and general dungeoneering, while wis saves are mostly enchantments, charms and fear effects (which rob players of agency, so ought not to be used as often).

It's not about frequency, but about how crippling failing said Save is.

Fail a Dex Save and you'll more than likely be taking some damage. No big deal for someone with a (practically) freely replenishing store of HP. A few Dex Saves prevent a Restrained condition, but on the whole you Dex Save vs. Damage and Restrained isn't so bad a condition to deal with.

Fail a Wis Save, on the other hand and you're quite likely to be taken out of a fight entirely; fear and paralysis are game-changers. That is a big deal. Charmed is a powerful out-of-combat condition and other spells resisted by Wis are usually well worth going out of your way to avoid.

You rarely see Dex Saves outside of combat, too, whilst Wis Saves can crop up at...unexpected times. Wis Save Proficiency is practically a requirement for most mid-to-high level play if you expect to survive long.

I would gladly take Wis Save proficiency over a single bonus Skill Proficiency and a couple of Weapon Proficiencies. Take a look at the facts;

Druid 1st, MC Rogue:
Weapons: Club, Dagger, Dart, Javelin, Mace, Q-Staff, Scimitar, Sickle Sling, Spear
Armour: Light, Medium, Shields
Tools: Herbalism Kit, Thieves Tools
Skills: 2 Druid +1 Rogue +Racial +Background

Rogue 1st, MC Druid
Weapons: Gain Greatclub, Handaxe, Light Hammer, Light X-Bow, Shortbow, Hand X-bow, Longsword, Rapier, Shortsword
Armour: (No gains/losses)
Tools: Lose Herbalism Kit
Skills: Gain 3 Rogue, Lose 2 Druid (net gain: 1 Skill)

If you're looking at a focus on Wild Shape, then Weapon Proficiencies are largely irrelevant; most combats you'll be using claws and teeth. Even if you don't go for combat Wild Shapes, what do you gain? Greatclub, Handaxe, Light Hammer and Longsword can happily be ignored; low Strength and no Sneak Attack means you aren't using them at all. Dex 14 isn't good enough to really make ranged combat a going concern, so we can largely discount the Shortbow and X-bows.

Further, as a Wood Elf, you get Longbow, Longsword, Shortbow and Shortsword Proficiency regardless of which Class you take at 1st.

So by going Rogue 1st, you functionally gain Rapier Proficiency (which you likely won't use much), lose the Herbalism Kit (one of the only really useful Tool Kits outside of Thieves Tools, which you get either way), get one extra Skill Proficiency and replace the awesome Wis Save Proficiency with Dex Save Proficiency, a Save which I'll reiterate that you can largely ignore because of your massive resistance to damage via Wild Shape and Uncanny Dodge.

I highly recommend Druid at 1st level.

[gfishfunk]

A Rouge Rogue would be a Rogue that has the "Friends" cantrip.

Then you could call them THE Rouge.

Then again, there is the rogue rouge rogue, who appears red and is off doing his own things as a rogue.

To the OP: Druid might be better alone for several levels until you get the feel of the character. I generally recommend against multiclassing with a first character, even though that is exactly what I did.

[JeffreyGator]

The biggest combat synergies exist when you are elf shaped.

I would think very strongly about Land Druid instead of Moon Druid for this.
With AL rules you are unlikely to be getting SA in animal form ever and so animal forms are probably best reserved for utility vs combat.

It also depends on what levels you will be playing.

I wonder why you prioritized INT 14 CON 10 DEX 14? I would suggest INT 10 CON 12 DEX 16 to allow for better SA attacks. I don't know that you need any INT dependent spells or skills.

AT 6 LD 14 will be able to cast and additional level 8 spell slot vs some other form but gives a number of interesting utility options from 3 more cantrips. (Booming blade, Mage Hand and minor illusion probably)

[JellyPooga]

The biggest combat synergies exist when you are elf shaped.

I'm not convinced this is necessarily true. Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge, and Expertise all work very well in conjunction with Wild Shape.

Expertise: Athletics + Wild Shape: Bear = Grapple-tastic
Wild Shape: Any + Uncanny Dodge = Tank-a-tron
Expertise: Stealth, Perception + Wild Shape: Hawk = Scout-alicious
Cunning Action: Dash + Wild Shape: Horse = Speed-demon

Losing a couple of d6 of Sneak Attack is a small price to pay. As a Land Druid, your DPR is likely to be coming from spell-slinging rather than Sneak Attacks anyway, unless you only dip Druid, in which case Moon is far preferable to Land.

[bid]

What's all this 'wis saves are better than dex'?
How many beasts have Wis proficiency? How many Dex?

I don't have a clue, but it could make a difference.

[R.Shackleford]

What's all this 'wis saves are better than dex'? I'm pretty sure dex saves come up more often... not only are there 30% more abilities that call for dex saves (according to Kryx (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20885903&postcount=1)), but I feel like the dex saves are disproportionately applied to PCs; they tend to be AoE attacks, traps and general dungeoneering, while wis saves are mostly enchantments, charms and fear effects (which rob players of agency, so ought not to be used as often).

Dex saves deal HP damage, Wis saves makes you useless for a round or more.

Wis saves are more important because their effects take time to build up before you are stopped from doing stuff at the table and even then there are easy ways to get you back into the game.

[Xetheral]

How many beasts have Wis proficiency? How many Dex?

I don't have a clue, but it could make a difference.

There are no beasts in the MM (at least not in the appendix, maybe there are in the main text) who are proficient in any saves.

Out of curiosity, why might it "make a difference"?

[bid]

There are no beasts in the MM (at least not in the appendix, maybe there are in the main text) who are proficient in any saves.

Out of curiosity, why might it "make a difference"?
If that was the case and your preferred beasts had Dex save, you'd want Wis save from your class. This way you'd have both in wildshape.