Balanced Abilities and Saving Throws

[Kryx]

So after more weeks of discussion with people and my party this is the results I went with:

Saving Throws (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SkWNvU8TD)
Skills (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HycOCZrw)

My full list of Houserules (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BkZbG-bew). Always a work in progress.

Scrapped Attacks vs Ref, but you could accomplish the same by removing 10 from AC and rolling that. Making Reflex a defense makes sense, but is hard to balance. I think I got really close and it might've worked had I worked on it a bit longer, but party wasn't so positive.
Scrapped DR as attacks vs ref was scrapped. DR on monsters presents some problems for multiattacks like fighter and monk which could be overcome, but it's a lot of changes.
I experimented with No Abilities (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/edit/r1eAKTpiL) for a while, but the party didn't go for that.

Regarding saving throws: I'd very strongly recommend taking the average. Taking the highest encourages dump stats and creates some balance issues in the saving throw success rates for monsters. I link a lot of the math in the saving throw document so feel free to read it there.


Easy_Lee and I have written down our ideas on a system that balances Abilities and Saving throws into three saving throws (Fortitude/Reflex/Will). It also presents an alternate option instead of armor class: Using Dexterity (Reflex) saving throws.
Please enjoy: http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/print/rJND7KpV

Please provide any feedback.

Thanks Easy_Lee for working with me on this for a week now. Thanks R.Shackleford for the idea and the feedback!

[arclance]

I don't see where you address unarmored Barbarians in your "Reflex saves Replace AC" section even though you cover Monks.
I would probably do something like DR1 normally, DR2 (maybe increasing to DR3 at high level (14+)) against damage types you don't have resistance for while raging based on your Monk change.
Barbarians already get advantage on most reflex saves (any they could use a reaction on at least) so the rest of your Monk version does not make sense for them.

[MrStabby]

Why would you want to make intelligence even more of a dump stat?

[Kryx]

I don't see where you address unarmored Barbarians in your "Reflex saves Replace AC" section
I have missed Barbarian's Rage, you're correct. I'd likely remove Strength (Reflex) saving throws from rage as they already have resistance. I'll think it over and edit it in.


Why would you want to make intelligence even more of a dump stat?
Many builds are already able to dump Str, Int, Cha with little cost. This option enables builds to take those options without feeling underpowered. Beyond primary and secondary stats intelligence is still useful for knowledge and a language and a skill. Likely more useful than it's current state. Same with Charisma: It's only useful for social skills.

So things have only improved for those options.

[Saggo]

What about a subset of DR shields? Some shield styles absorb blows rather than deflect, paralleling armor DR. It'd introduce some equipment variety that was lost with the new armor. I see the sidebar for the concept of a DR limit, but did you model actual break points for balance?

[Easy_Lee]

What about a subset of DR shields? Some shield styles absorb blows rather than deflect, paralleling armor DR. It'd introduce some equipment variety that was lost with the new armor. I see the sidebar for the concept of a DR limit, but did you model actual break points for balance?

DR on certain shields, perhaps tower shields, could make sense. But the main issue Kryx and I had with increasing player DR past three is that low level mobs very quickly become a non-threat. A DR as high as 5 makes many mobs, such as regular run-of-the-mill goblins, near-totally ineffective. However, with DR 3 vs. Reflex saves on heavy armor, it remains within the bounds and stated goals of 5e and bounded accuracy. It also makes heavy armor more useful, as it now helps one resist fireballs and Reflex traps.

[Kryx]

What about a subset of DR shields? Some shield styles absorb blows rather than deflect, paralleling armor DR. It'd introduce some equipment variety that was lost with the new armor. I see the sidebar for the concept of a DR limit, but did you model actual break points for balance?
Shield as DR would be rathy tricky with the DR limit. I think anything beyond 3 is rather troublesome if you plan on using any low CR creatures. Examples:
Goblin
3-8 damage = average 5.5
0-5 damage = average 2.5

Kobold
3-6 damage = average 4.5
0-5 damage = average 2.5

[R.Shackleford]

Easy_Lee and I have written down our ideas on a system that balances Abilities and Saving throws into three saving throws (Fortitude/Reflex/Will). It also presents an alternate option instead of armor class: Using Dexterity (Reflex) saving throws.
Please enjoy: http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/print/rJND7KpV

Please provide any feedback.

Thanks Easy_Lee for working with me on this for a week now. Thanks R.Shackleford for the idea and the feedback!

I've ran a couple sessions with rules similar to this and it works so dang well with 5e's ideology of simplicity. You two out 5e'ed 5e.

I have been putting Strength and Constitution together but Strength and Dexterity really makes more sense. I'm going to run a session with these rules to see how people react to a few of the other changes.

The main change between what I was doing and what you two have created is that y'all use a contest of Attack versus Reflex. We were just making the attack a DC and having people roll a reflex save. For ours we still allowed the attacker to roll a d20 in order to see if they critical. I see that this is an optional rule but keeping the chance of critical in the attacker's hands seem to work really well.

Also thanks for showing me the website, holy crap is that an awesome website.

[Kryx]

I have been putting Strength and Constitution together but Strength and Dexterity really makes more sense.
I was initially opposed to Easy_Lee's idea when he posted it on the forum, but after I really considered it combining Strength and Dexterity really made sense from a fluff perspective and a numbers perspective. I'm rather happy with the results - especially since it enables the Attacks vs Reflex system really well.


For ours we still allowed the attacker to roll a d20 in order to see if they critical. I see that this is an optional rule but keeping the chance of critical in the attacker's hands seem to work really well.
The critical rules didn't change for this system. A 20 is still a critical and a 1 is still a miss.

Thanks again for the feedback R.Shackleford. I'm glad you like it. :)

[Saggo]

DR on certain shields, perhaps tower shields, could make sense. But the main issue Kryx and I had with increasing player DR past three is that low level mobs very quickly become a non-threat. A DR as high as 5 makes many mobs, such as regular run-of-the-mill goblins, near-totally ineffective. However, with DR 3 vs. Reflex saves on heavy armor, it remains within the bounds and stated goals of 5e and bounded accuracy. It also makes heavy armor more useful, as it now helps one resist fireballs and Reflex traps.


Shield as DR would be rathy tricky with the DR limit. I think anything beyond 3 is rather troublesome if you plan on using any low CR creatures. Examples:
Goblin
3-8 damage = average 5.5
0-5 damage = average 2.5

Kobold
3-6 damage = average 4.5
0-5 damage = average 2.5
Right, I understand the idea of keeping them relevant. Balanced mechanically, it makes sense that shields would only add to Reflex. If I had a choice between a DR 1 or Reflex 2 Shield, Reflex would likely be the better choice every time, and a DR 2+ shield would almost make you immune to a lot of attacks. You could maybe make a Shield Action that turns Reflex into DR or similar, but I'd wonder how many people would use it over their normal actions.

It just felt weird to me to make a system that splits Evasion and Reduction but not reflect that in Shields.

[arclance]

I have missed Barbarian's Rage, you're correct. I'd likely remove Strength (Reflex) saving throws from rage as they already have resistance. I'll think it over and edit it in.
Don't forget that they have their own version of unarmored defense (AC = 10 + DEX Mod + CON Mod, can use shields) which is different from the monks that needs addressed as well as rage.
You should explicitly say if it gives them CON Mod and DEX Mod to Reflex saves under your "Reflex Saves as AC" rules.
It should probably give them some form of DR as well as I mentioned before or wearing medium armor just becomes much better mechanically since you get DR and resistance that way.
You probably also need to address how Danger Sense acts in your new system since gives Barbarians Advantage on Dex Saves "that you can see".

[Kryx]

It just felt weird to me to make a system that splits Evasion and Reduction but not reflect that in Shields.
Shields are much more about avoidance than reduction imo. Armor is reduction because it still hits you. A shield prevents it from hitting you (you'll get a stinging hand, but that's not permanent damage).



Don't forget that they have their own version of unarmored defense (AC = 10 + DEX Mod + CON Mod, can use shields) which is different from the monks that needs addressed as well as rage.
You should explicitly say if it gives them CON Mod and DEX Mod to Reflex saves under your "Reflex Saves as AC" rules.
It should probably give them some form of DR as well as I mentioned before or wearing medium armor just becomes much better mechanically since you get DR and resistance that way.
You probably also need to address how Danger Sense acts in your new system since gives Barbarians Advantage on Dex Saves "that you can see".
The old mechanics were there to enable a playstyle which already exists in the Attacks vs Reflex system. See the table at the end. Unarmored Barbarians have a higher chance to dodge now than they did before.
They no longer have Unarmored Defense. But I like your suggestion of DR 2, but if we do that then there is no reason for medium armor. So DR 1 seems like the best choice.

Danger Sense was added a few hours ago. It's just vs traps now.

I miss rage powers from PF.

[arclance]

They no longer have Unarmored Defense. But I like your suggestion of DR 2, but if we do that then there is no reason for medium armor. So DR 1 seems like the best choice.
I would make it DR2 while raging, DR1 while not raging.
You have a very limited number of rages per day (If I ran a game I would increase rages per day by 1) so medium armor still gives you the advantage of being DR2 all day long even when you don't rage.
Medium armor has the disadvantage of giving you disadvantage on stealth so it is not all upside.

Not all Barbarians want disadvantage on stealth anyway.
I am currently playing a Wood Elf Eagle/Wolf Totem Barbarian (Shield and Longsword, Shieldmaster) with Stealth proficiency from my background and it would ruin my "Stealth and/or Double Move up to most dangerous enemy and keep them busy" strategy to wear medium armor.

Your missing a "Barbarian Unarmored Shield" column in your "Chance to avoid damage" table as well.


Danger Sense was added a few hours ago. It's just vs traps now.
This I don't like unless you make the change to "resist all but psychic damage while raging" mandatory instead of just "recommended".

Advantage on Dex saves made Barbarians who did not take Bear Totem at level three much more survivable and this removes that.
I recommend you let them keep advantage on Reflex saves they can see coming that do not come from a melee weapon, ranged weapon, or spell attack roll which would replicate the effect under this system.

[Saggo]

Shields are much more about avoidance than reduction imo. Armor is reduction because it still hits you. A shield prevents it from hitting you (you'll get a stinging hand, but that's not permanent damage).
Historically and narratively they do both, I'd think deflecting a dragon's tail or a maul/hammer would do more than sting and reduced combat endurance is reflected in HP. In the AC system, there wasn't a way to distinguish, either. But mechanically, I understand the need to limit DR, so what would you think of a sort of Shield Action?

[Kryx]

I would make it DR2 while raging, DR1 while not raging.
I think they either get resistance to all but psychic or DR 2. I think all by psychic is a better choice.

This is what I currently have:

Barbarian Unarmored Defense is no longer needed as the playstyle (unarmored) is supported in the default system. You gain DR 1.
Barbarian Rage does not have advantage on Reflex saving throws as they already have resistance. Change their resistance to be against all damage except psychic and replace Bear level 3 with "When you rage you gain temporary hit points equivalent to your level + your proficiency bonus".

Added Barbarian Unarmored Shield to the list


Advantage on Dex saves made Barbarians who did not take Bear Totem at level three much more survivable and this removes that.
I recommend you let them keep advantage on Reflex saves they can see coming that do not come from a melee weapon, ranged weapon, or spell attack roll which would replicate the effect under this system.
I think that wording is too complex. The default just counts against traps and spells. In this system Barbarians already have a huge boost to Reflex as a result of Strength counting toward it so I don't think they need anything special for spells.
Especially with the resistance to all damage but psychic while raging. I think they're in a good spot then.

What are your thoughts?






You could maybe make a Shield Action that turns Reflex into DR or similar, but I'd wonder how many people would use it over their normal actions.
+2 Reflex should pretty much always be better than DR 2. It seems like a trap option, right?

[mgshamster]

Is it just me, or are there formatting errors on the document?

On page 2, the text on the right hand side of the page is almost entirely "off page."

On page 4, there's a link that's cut off on the top right.

[Easy_Lee]

Is it just me, or are there formatting errors on the document?

On page 2, the text on the right hand side of the page is almost entirely "off page."

On page 4, there's a link that's cut off on the top right.

I've had the same issue, and I believe it is a formatting problem with that website in certain browsers.

[Kryx]

Is it just me, or are there formatting errors on the document?
Link on page 4 fixed - it happened when I added unarmored barbarian shield.

I don't see an issue on page 2. Perhaps try Chrome.

[arclance]

I think they either get resistance to all but psychic or DR 2. I think all by psychic is a better choice.
The problem I have with this is that barbarians are proficient in light and medium armor which gives them DR2 anyway even when they are not raging.
This makes medium armor mechanically Superior unless you don't want disadvantage on stealth.
I think you may not be taking into account that the resistance you are giving them is only while they are raging and Barbarians only get more rage uses by taking a long rest, they have no short rest recovery mechanic for them.
They also get a very small number of uses per day

2/Day at Level 1
3/Day at Level 3
4/Day at Level 6
5/Day at Level 12 (big gap here)
6/Day at Level 17
Unlimited at Level 20

and until Level 15 their rage ends early if the don't attempt (not succeed just attempt) to attack a hostile creature or take damage that round.
Giving Unarmored Barbarians DR2 while raging gives parity between armored and unarmored where it matters (when damage taken is high) but still gives a reason to go with medium armor to get DR2 when you don't want to or can't (fairly common until Level 12) rage for that fight.





Advantage on Dex saves made Barbarians who did not take Bear Totem at level three much more survivable and this removes that.
I recommend you let them keep advantage on Reflex saves they can see coming that do not come from a melee weapon, ranged weapon, or spell attack roll which would replicate the effect under this system.
I think that wording is too complex.
I could not come up with a simpler wording under your system that combines Strength, Dex, and AC under Reflex saves.
The complexity is due to how many things you rolled up into one save.


The default just counts against traps and spells. In this system Barbarians already have a huge boost to Reflex as a result of Strength counting toward it so I don't think they need anything special for spells.
Especially with the resistance to all damage but psychic while raging. I think they're in a good spot then.
This was an explanation on why I thought advantage only against traps would only be okay if resistance to all but psychic damage lost the "Recommended" clause.

This is the full quote that you lost the first part of

Danger Sense was added a few hours ago. It's just vs traps now.

This I don't like unless you make the change to "resist all but psychic damage while raging" mandatory instead of just "recommended".

Advantage on Dex saves made Barbarians who did not take Bear Totem at level three much more survivable and this removes that.
I recommend you let them keep advantage on Reflex saves they can see coming that do not come from a melee weapon, ranged weapon, or spell attack roll which would replicate the effect under this system.

[Saggo]

+2 Reflex should pretty much always be better than DR 2. It seems like a trap option, right?

Against Kobolds, Goblins, and similar, 2 damage is more than 10% of their DPR, which is why you didn't what it permanent. As an action there's a cost. But the problem is Dodge and Shield would be better without granting a ridiculous DR, so never mind.

[Kryx]

The problem I have with this is that barbarians are proficient in light and medium armor which gives them DR2 anyway even when they are not raging.
This makes medium armor mechanically Superior unless you don't want disadvantage on stealth.
Medium armor was superior in the old system. Overall Unarmored had 38% chance to dodge while Armored has 47.5%. The only time Unarmored ever won was level 20. See https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17ZeFuwQVvb9DsMseUU8Pb0KxDU7sizhmebp-U7FuzLY/edit#gid=666952867

So this is maintaining the previous state. Giving DR 2 in rage isn't necessary to stay with the previous balance between the two options as unarmored is already way ahead of the gap that was there on the default system


They also get a very small number of uses per day
They get 2-6 rages per day. DMG recommends 6-8 encounters per day, but most groups play much less (1-5 more likely)

By my calculations based on DMG calculations a Barbarian will be raging
42% of the time level 1-2
65% level 3-5
88% level 6-11
95% level 12-14
100% level 15+


until Level 15 their rage ends early if the don't attempt (not succeed just attempt) to attack a hostile creature or take damage that round.
This should be incredibly unlikely. I assumed that there is a 5% chance of this happening.


Giving Unarmored Barbarians DR2 while raging gives parity between armored and unarmored where it matters
There isn't parity in the default system. This system isn't intended to break that, though it does greatly improve it for Unarmored Barbarian.



This is the full quote that you lost the first part of
Are you recommending a change? Sorry, it's unclear.

[arclance]

They get 2-6 rages per day. DMG recommends 6-8 encounters per day, but most groups play much less (1-5 more likely)

By my calculations based on DMG calculations a Barbarian will be raging
42% of the time level 1-2
65% level 3-5
88% level 6-11
95% level 12-14
100% level 15+
That in no way matches my actual experience playing and seeing others play barbarians.
This is what I have seen in actual play.

95% of the time level 1-2 (2 Rages/Day | Low Party HP, everyone runs out of resources and HP, can't afford consumable resources, takes a long rest to reduce chance of death)
70% level 3-5 (3 Rages/Day | Okay Party HP, ACs improve as slightly better armor becomes affordable, minor consumable resources (healing potions) are possibly affordable, Parties X/Day resources usually outlast you by 1 or 2 encounters)
60-80% level 6-11 (4 Rages/ Day | Okay Party HP, AC starts to level off, minor and possibly medium consumables resources should be affordable, Enemy Damage Spikes, other party members tend to deplete healing spells and abilities leading to long rests being taken with one or two rages left or when you which you still had rages left)
NA% level 12-19 (5 or 6 Rages/Day | Never Played at this level, I expect it would be like Levels 6-11 with less likely hood of wishing you had more rages per day)
100% level 20 (Unlimited Rages/Day | Unless you are a Berserker with exhaustion levels built up you rage every encounter)



until Level 15 their rage ends early if the don't attempt (not succeed just attempt) to attack a hostile creature or take damage that round.
This should be incredibly unlikely. I assumed that there is a 5% chance of this happening.
It's not that unlikely if your DM uses anything except enemies that can't hide from you in a smallish room (60x60ft.).
If you can't get close enough to try to attack anything hostile, can't see anything hostile to attack it, or don't take damage that turn (enemy missed you, enemy attacked someone else, etc.) you loose your rage by RAW.
I would put it the likely hood of loosing rage at ~10-40% depending on your DM preference for style of encounter.
You can also lose a rage if you go unconscious due to damage.
If you are then healed by another party member so you might spend two rages in one fight if it is difficult enough to need to do that (i.e. Boss Fight).


There isn't parity in the default system. This system isn't intended to break that, though it does greatly improve it for Unarmored Barbarian.
Yes but you changed the parity from "My AC is slightly higher" to "Ha, I take a statistically significant amount of less damage".
You widened the gap significantly by denying the unarmored barbarian limited use DR2 while giving the armored barbarian access to always on DR2.
You have made the Armored Barbarian who has run out of rages (less rare than you seem to think) noticeably better than the Unarmored Barbarian because the Armored Barbarian should have more HP left (possibly 40 HP or more at the end of a adventuring day), because they had DR2 all day (raging or not), than the Unarmored Barbarian who never had DR2 (Raging or not).
Unless the DM got a crit or two on the Barbarian I would not expect that large a remaining HP disparity between the two in Vanilla 5th edition.


Are you recommending a change? Sorry, it's unclear.
No I was clarifying what seemed like a misinterpretation of my post since you were not reading that section in the context I intended.

From how you have responded I get the feeling that you have never actually played a barbarian for a extended time before.
Your responses sound like someone just running the numbers without any experience of how the class works in practice and not in theory.

[Kryx]

That in no way matches my actual experience playing and seeing others play barbarians.
...
From how you have responded I get the feeling that you have never actually played a barbarian for a extended time before.
Oh yay, another "have you seen this in actual play" style post. Yes, I have seen a Barbarian in actual play. Quite a bit actually. But thank you for being condescending and assuming I don't understand the system. That's a great start to this discussion!

So I'm going to ignore all your animosity and condescension and talk facts:
To generate an unarmored Barbarian using point buy who has more defense than an armored barbarian you'd have to invest into 20 dexterity and 20 constitution which would leave you with little strength and no feats. Effectively 0 damage. That's not an effective choice.



I would put it the likely hood of loosing rage at ~10-40% depending on your DM preference for style of encounter.
That is incredibly different than I have experienced. If that's the case I would encourage you to pick a different class than a Babarian. From the discussions on these forums people have expressed that losing rage is rather rare.


Yes but you changed the parity from "My AC is slightly higher" to "Ha, I take a statistically significant amount of less damage".
It actually changed from: "I used to get hit 62% of the time while you got hit 52.5% of the time" to something like "I now get hit 57% of the time while you get hit 57% of the time, but take slightly less damage per hit because you're wearing armor"

If you want to use DR 2 on unarmored then you're welcome to customize my system. Giving DR 2 leaves no reason to wear armor as was expected for higher defense in the default system.

[arclance]

Oh yay, another "have you seen this in actual play" style post. Yes, I have seen a Barbarian in actual play. Quite a bit actually. But thank you for being condescending and assuming I don't understand the system. That's a great start to this discussion!
I said I got the felling you had never played a Barbarian yourself, personally.
I said nothing about you "seeing it in actual play" which could just mean you observed other people play a barbarian, I was more specific than that.
Have you ever personally played a 5th edition barbarian?


So I'm going to ignore all your animosity and condescension and talk facts:
I was not being condescending, I was stating the impression you gave me through the format of your responses so you could respond to me to clarify if I had come to a accurate impression or not.
If that comes across as condescension it is probably due to my rather dry and direct writing style.


From the discussions on these forums people have expressed that losing rage is rather rare.
I have not noticed that but I don't spend as much time in the 5th edition section as others.


It actually changed from: "I used to get hit 62% of the time while you got hit 52.5% of the time" to something like "I now get hit 57% of the time while you get hit 57% of the time, but take slightly less damage per hit because you're wearing armor"
How much do racial bonuses to STR, DEX, or CON affect that gap?
A +2 to any of them would mean you would end up with a AC 1 higher in the end.


If you want to use DR 2 on unarmored then you're welcome to customize my system. Giving DR 2 leaves no reason to wear armor as was expected for higher defense in the default system.
I don't want to give it always on DR2 while unarmored I think it should be rage only.
The armor still has the benefit of being always on, rage or not, so the armored barbarian would benefit even when not raging.
The armored barbarian has DR2 if attacked before they rage that encounter (surprised, enemies have higher initiative, etc.) or did not rage for some reason (out of rages, misjudged the difficulty of the encounter and chose to conserve rages, etc.)
It is an advantage, not as large as the one you want to give them, but it is there.


That is incredibly different than I have experienced. If that's the case I would encourage you to pick a different class than a Babarian.
Which is why I mentioned that it is varies from DM to DM.
Some DMs run encounters where it is very difficult to lose your rage, some don't (hold person, paralysis, sleep, etc.).
Dismissing my experiences out of hand like that and implying I am too incompetent to play a Barbarian is condescending however.
If your not open to discourse or constructive criticism of your modification of the 5th edition system I am going to leave you to work on it without my input.

[Baptor]

Easy_Lee and I have written down our ideas on a system that balances Abilities and Saving throws into three saving throws (Fortitude/Reflex/Will). It also presents an alternate option instead of armor class: Using Dexterity (Reflex) saving throws.
Please enjoy: http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/print/rJND7KpV

Please provide any feedback.

Thanks Easy_Lee for working with me on this for a week now. Thanks R.Shackleford for the idea and the feedback!

1) The saving throw fix is par excellence. Thank you. I had come up with something similar but it was nowhere as good as yours. Thanks again.

2) The DR rules are really cool and interesting, but I won't be using them as it would require changing too much and too much bookkeeping. However, had 5e been built around this I think it would have been better. Not that it's bad as is, it's great. Reminds me of Pillars of Eternity.

[Kryx]

Thanks for the feedback Baptor!

It seems like a lot, but it's not actually too much. But totally understood about not wanting to make the switch.

Enjoy the saving throws!

[kennydiskord]

Hey guys, love your work! I really like where this is going. I was a big fan of some of the AC-as-a-roll variants in 3.5. It helps make combat just slightly more simulationist without getting too bogged down in the minutiae.

Quick clarification: When you're talking about combining the saves (Str + Dex, Int + Wis + Cha), are you suggesting combining all of the relevant ability score modifiers? So with 12 Int, 12 Wis and 12 Cha, my Will save base would be +3?

If so, would the numbers fit better if you just used the highest relevant score? Or would that fall back into diminishing the importance of the others? I'm just curious, as it seems like some characters would have fairly large modifiers to those saves.

Also (sorry, long post, many questions, wow), in the Benefits section, number 5: "Reflex scales based on Proficiency Bonus like attacks do." - This would only apply to characters who are proficient in Reflex saves, correct? It wouldn't necessitate that all (or even most) characters would benefit from such a change, if I understand this proposition.

Thanks!

[R.Shackleford]

Hey guys, love your work! I really like where this is going. I was a big fan of some of the AC-as-a-roll variants in 3.5. It helps make combat just slightly more simulationist without getting too bogged down in the minutiae.

Quick clarification: When you're talking about combining the saves (Str + Dex, Int + Wis + Cha), are you suggesting combining all of the relevant ability score modifiers? So with 12 Int, 12 Wis and 12 Cha, my Will save base would be +3?

If so, would the numbers fit better if you just used the highest relevant score? Or would that fall back into diminishing the importance of the others? I'm just curious, as it seems like some characters would have fairly large modifiers to those saves.

Also (sorry, long post, many questions, wow), in the Benefits section, number 5: "Reflex scales based on Proficiency Bonus like attacks do." - This would only apply to characters who are proficient in Reflex saves, correct? It wouldn't necessitate that all (or even most) characters would benefit from such a change, if I understand this proposition.

Thanks!

It would work like 4e, take the highest modifier you have andone apply it to your save.

I'm pretty sure that is their intent, I'm using it this way at least haha.

[DeAnno]

FWIW, my experience with Barbarians is also that it's quite easy and likely to lose Rage. Things like being restrained in a net, frightened from an enemy, knocked unconscious, or just too far away seem to happen a lot.

The general difficulty I've noticed in playing Barbarians (and melee in general) is that melee attacks are hard to make in this edition, because it lacks the array of utility powers 4e had (which often beat conditions or gave better movement) and even the charging rules of 3e. It's all too easy to get hosed in some way that prevents you from attacking, and unless you have an option like Misty Step tucked away most melee classes don't have the same ability to throw off those hosers that they used to.

[Zman]

Pretty awesome Kryx, I always wished they has used armor as DR and separated getting hit from getting hurt instead of abstract defense AC. It is a bit too much change for what I'd like to do but the core ideas and implementation looks solid from my skim standpoint.

[djreynolds]

I like the idea(s).

1. give everybody an example, play a pretend couple of rounds between Kryx, Easy_Lee, and Shackleford, so everyone can see it done.

2. a lot about D&D is "romance" and reminiscing and the past. Crazy, but the past is important so things like AC is something that's always been there, with hit points, etc... These are old constants like magic missile

3. I like the idea of active defense, slip and slide, that reflex is muscle, strength and dex, power and tone, slow and fast twitch muscle... but I also want to see an area that represents training, sixth sense, intelligently wearing armor in the proper spots, etc..
you know why is your sword arm armored and your shield arm bare or vice versa, yes your helmet will prevent critical hits but you cannot see as well

4. If class powers cannot be balanced, its okay... you could use the old experience system and make some archetypes progress faster. Like a fighter or thief needs less experience to level up

AWESOME WORK, your spouses probably had to mow the lawn while you guys worked this up so we should thank them and your coworkers as well

Really cool stuff

[Kryx]

So after more weeks of discussion with people and my party this is the results I went with:

Saving Throws (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SkWNvU8TD)
Skills (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HycOCZrw)

My full list of Houserules (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BkZbG-bew). Always a work in progress.

Scrapped Attacks vs Ref, but you could accomplish the same by removing 10 from AC and rolling that. Making Reflex a defense makes sense, but is hard to balance. I think I got really close and it might've worked had I worked on it a bit longer, but party wasn't so positive.
Scrapped DR as attacks vs ref was scrapped. DR on monsters presents some problems for multiattacks like fighter and monk which could be overcome, but it's a lot of changes.
I experimented with No Abilities (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/edit/r1eAKTpiL) for a while, but the party didn't go for that.

Regarding saving throws: I'd very strongly recommend taking the average. Taking the highest encourages dump stats and creates some balance issues in the saving throw success rates for monsters. I link a lot of the math in the saving throw document so feel free to read it there.



in the Benefits section, number 5: "Reflex scales based on Proficiency Bonus like attacks do." - This would only apply to characters who are proficient in Reflex saves, correct? It wouldn't necessitate that all (or even most) characters would benefit from such a change, if I understand this proposition.
If you use that system (not sure I'd recommend it, I'd have to run the monster math again) then yes reflex only gets proficiency if you're proficient. Which is why resilient was removed. I'd also suggest basing saving throw for multiclass based on the class with the most levels to avoid the dip issues.

[Chronos Flame]

So to clarify, Reflex is basically AC now, yes? Wouldn't that make classes that get it as their preferred save leagues better at avoiding damage, and what's more Resilient Reflex (if that is a thing) almost mandatory for fighter types who now, rather than being good at taking no damage, instead take a bit less?

[Kryx]

So to clarify, Reflex is basically AC now, yes? Wouldn't that make classes that get it as their preferred save leagues better at avoiding damage, and what's more Resilient Reflex (if that is a thing) almost mandatory for fighter types who now, rather than being good at taking no damage, instead take a bit less?
Please read the document before providing commentary.

Though as mentioned above this isn't the direction I went with. I'll edit OP to make that clear.

[Chronos Flame]

Okay, so I did read the document, admittedly skimming to important bits the first time, but to be sure I wasn't crazy and give you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't just being dismissive of negative thoughts as seems to be a theme, I reread it and my statement stands. I do see you have decided to not use the attack vs reflex though... in a post... made as I was writing and thinking through my own post.

If you want critique when posting something maybe consider the critique even when it is... well... critique rather than praise.

That said, I very much enjoy the combining of the saves into the classic three. I'd rather a world where all 6 saves held a bit more weight I think, but pretty cool still.

Edit: Mind you, yes I know there is no resilient. What I refer to is anything that could get hold of proficiency, or rather the tendency to start your career as a class that has the proficiency.

[djreynolds]

I think if you show a mock little combat round, people might see it.

I for one like it, its more rolling but it makes combat more interesting if I get a chance to beat my adversary's attack.

Also a thought, I have thought about combining some skills with two ability attributes. Such as intimidation with strength/ charisma average, or sleight of hand with dex and charisma.

It reminds me of TOMBSTONE when Michael Bien and Val Kilmer are doing the gun spinning, and Val punks him

[Kryx]

If you want critique when posting something maybe consider the critique even when it is... well... critique rather than praise.
I empathize with what you're saying and I'm sorry if I came off as rude.

Rant:
This platform is a collaboration platform. If people want to participate then they should take the effort to read the document (or at least search for key phrases in the document). I've had too many posts get derailed by people who haven't bothered to read the idea and have just spouted their own beliefs.
Rant over.

The tradeoff between starting as a light armor class (DR 1) who has higher Reflex vs starting off with a heavy armor class (DR 3) with less reflex is definitely how it was planned.
However I'd recommend making Multiclass saving throw proficiency based on your class with the most levels as I do now.

If you look at page 4 of the original document you can see the chances to avoid. It doesn't come out as you feared.

_______________________

@dj: I'm not using the Attacks vs Reflex system so I won't be investing more time in it (like creating a sample scenario).

[Chronos Flame]

The new idea, something like AC-10 as a save vs attacks is cool. I've actually seen it used to some effect in an older game and I sometimes like systems with a bit more variability in conflicts like that.


I empathize with what you're saying and I'm sorry if I came off as rude.

Rant:
This platform is a collaboration platform. If people want to participate then they should take the effort to read the document (or at least search for key phrases in the document). I've had too many posts get derailed by people who haven't bothered to read the idea and have just spouted their own beliefs.
Rant over.


Oh, and I do understand. I get that, and as I enjoy very much playtesting (and creating things as well as stats in general) I like to play devil's advocate, and that was the most shockingly off thing to me, as seems to have been the conclusion you came to to some degree as well considering you decided against it.

I guess it is my fault to some degree, commenting on a system that I don't intend to use. (It's good stuff for the most part, I just don't like to have to too drastically change a system I am using) I just like to see all homebrew come out well.

[Kryx]

Oh, and I do understand. I get that, and as I enjoy very much playtesting (and creating things as well as stats in general) I like to play devil's advocate, and that was the most shockingly off thing to me, as seems to have been the conclusion you came to to some degree as well considering you decided against it.
I decided not to use it because my party wasn't on board. I think the math is actually pretty solid (though I'd have to rerun it based on my average of saving throws on monsters). There is a LOT of math involved in such a change. You have to ensure monster's and PC's chance to be hit is relatively similar to the default (though slightly lower if you want DR).

I think it's a fun idea to consider and would've loved to playtest it. Comparing vs AC is faster for sure though.


Ya, the AC-10 roll system would be the simple way to get the benefits of the roll without reworking parts of the system to make Attacks vs Reflex work.

[R.Shackleford]

I use a little bit different houserules than Kryx, you can see most of them below (we use them even without the classes that I'm designing).
I absolutely hate the monster manual, well, I love the art and some of the fluff but the monsters are... Boring. So I'm always fixing or changing monsters so changing them to a system that uses the Fort/Ref/Will system (and AC = DR) is actually a time saver than trying to use the 5e Monster Manual.

Green Hag (4e Monster Vault Version) converted to this system... This is just from memory on some stuff and things have been changed.

HP: *shrug* (depends on the situation, anywhere from 10 HP to 80 HP)
AC: 2

Fort: +4
Reflex: +6
Will: +4

Prof: +2
Weapon DC: 8 + Ref Mod + Ref Prof (half or hole prof mod)
Magic DC: 8 + Will Mod + Will Prof (half or hole prof mod)

Note: for my monsters I don't actually write down their weapon and magic DC, I just keep it with their actions)

Features
Aquatic/Swim Speed
Base speed 30
Darkvision 60'
Advantage versus Poison
Flesh Shaper (limited shape change, female humans, elves, or half-elves... To us specific people the hag must have met them)
Mimicry (sound like self, female human, female elf, or female half elf)

Actions

Claw (Ref Negates, DC 14): 1d8 + 4 slashing damage. The green hag may coat her claws with some sort of poison without poisoning herself.

Hurl Through Earth (Ref Negates, DC 12): The ground swallows a creature and spits them back out to another location within 30' of where they started. The creature lands prone at the new location.

Grasping Roots (Ref Negates, DC 12): Choose a number of creatures equal to 2 * Prof Bonus (4) within 60' of you (the hag), withering roots filled with dark magic burst from below the targets and latch onto them. A successful reflex save prevents the roots from latching onto the target. Any creature that starts their turn or moves through the space of a withering root must reattempt the saving throw but no more than once per round. While the roots are latched onto the target, the target has their speed reduced by half and they can not move outside the root's length. The length of each root is 10'.

If the root takes slashing damage it recedes back into the ground.

The Hag may use her action to have a root constrict a target, this deals 2d8 bludgeoning damage, fortitude save (DC 14) halves the damage.

I've thrown something like her at my players a few times, last time was because a new player kept awkwardly hitting on my female NPCs... Got really weird.


So anyways...

Assumptions: Party is tracking this specific green hag and has taken out her reinforcements.

We have...

Malamar the Wizard
Tyranitar the Barbarian
Chesnaught the Paladin

They are fighting a green hag in the swamp. The green hag's name is Marie Laveau for anyone that likes old country music or voodoo stories.

They roll initiative and the order is...

Tyranitar, Malamar, Green Hag, and Chesnaught (the party already killed off some cronies)

Round 1
Tyranitar leaps forward (athletics or acrobat to see if they slip in the swamp) and is able to get to get close enough to the green hag that she can throw a hand axe. Tyranitar's weapon DC is (8 + Str + Prof) or (16). The green hag gains a reflex save to negate being hit by the hand axe. The Green Hag has a +6 to her reflex save so must roll a 10 or higher to dodge the hand axe. She rolls an 11 and the hand axe lodges into a tree behind her.

Malamar, seeing how impressive the green hag is (I mean, she dodged an axe being thrown by Tyranitar! Hot damn) decides to cast Hideous Laughter on the green hag. The DC is (8 + Int + Prof) (16) so the Green Hag needs to roll a 12 or higher to negate the effect. The green had rolls an 18 but Malamar uses their diviner feature (portent) to make it a 3. The green hag is now on the ground laughing her saggy haggy butt off.

Green Hag looses her turn as she is incapacitated and laughing. She rolls a new will save and passes the save but is still prone as the saving throw is at the end of her turn.

Chesnaught decides to cast Hunters Mark on himself, move toward the green hag, and then use his action to dash in order to get up next to her.

Round 2

Tyranitar moves up to the laughing hag, rages, and attacks. Due to the hag being prone Tyranitar doesn't need to be reckless with her attack. The hag rolls two reflex saves with disadvantage. She fails both and takes some pretty serious damage from the great sword. She reduces each attack's damage by 2. However the green hag gains a new saving throw each time she is damaged and passes on the second try. She is still prone but no longer laughing.

Malamar, uses his action to cast Frostbite (DC 16), the green hag has a +4 Fort save but fails so she takes damage and her next weapon attack will be at disadvantage. Malamar then uses Misty Escape to get behind some cover so the Hag can't target him.

The Hag stands up, is surrounded and can't really move to easily. The green hag sees no other opportunity but to use her action to use Hurl Through Earth on herself as her action, stands up (half movement) and then uses the rest of her movement to dive underwater in the deep part of the swamp.

Notes: At this point the Green Hag is attempting to escape, this would be treated like combat for the most part. However if the green hag can stay out of harms way for three rounds she is considered to have found a way to escape (secrete tunnel under the swamp). The party can track her (Chesnaught has Hunter's Mark up so that will help at the start) but the combat would be effectively over.

BIG NOTE: The Green Hag in the example wasn't balanced as a solo monster, I was just going off whatever to show how the saving throw system my group uses. Also, I'm a terrible writer so this goes a lot easier/better for me in person. :smallbiggrin:

[gkathellar]

I'm still skimming, but I absolutely love what I'm seeing so far, and you seem to be focused on solving a lot of the things that about 5E that are leaving me frustrated. Your race changes in particular are what have gotten me on board. I'm curious - is there any particular reason you've included equivalents for water and earth genasi, but not for fire and air?

My only other question right off the bat is about your save changes. Under these adjustments, which classes do you intend to have proficiency in what saves? Should we just assume that they fold into each other along the same lines as ability scores (i.e. barbarians get Fort and Ref, Monks get Ref, Paladins get Will, Sorcerers get Fort and Will, etc.)? If so, I can see one or two conflicts arising with class abilities.

(Also, I agree that monk unarmed damage is a bit too low in core, and I'd posit that it should start at 1d6, in addition to the generally better rate of advancement you include in your revisions.)

[Kryx]

I'm still skimming, but I absolutely love what I'm seeing so far, and you seem to be focused on solving a lot of the things that about 5E that are leaving me frustrated.
Thanks! I'm glad to share it!


Your race changes in particular are what have gotten me on board. I'm curious - is there any particular reason you've included equivalents for water and earth genasi, but not for fire and air?
My race changes are based on pathfinder so that is why I didn't use 5e genasi. 5e genasi are ok, but some are rather weak in comparison to the others.
I didn't do fire or air for my games as no player has been interested yet.


My only other question right off the bat is about your save changes. Under these adjustments, which classes do you intend to have proficiency in what saves? Should we just assume that they fold into each other along the same lines as ability scores (i.e. barbarians get Fort and Ref, Monks get Ref, Paladins get Will, Sorcerers get Fort and Will, etc.)? If so, I can see one or two conflicts arising with class abilities.
Edited the file to reflect that: http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SkWNvU8TD


(Also, I agree that monk unarmed damage is a bit too low in core, and I'd posit that it should start at 1d6, in addition to the generally better rate of advancement you include in your revisions.)
1d6 is a bit too much damage at early levels. See https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=2025852255
In my houserules Monk is doing 85% of a GWM fighter at level 1. 95% of a GWM fighter at 2. 75% of a GWM fighter at 3.
It suffers a bit between 2-6, but the rest is ok. I'll probably ty to fix 2-6 at some point.