Some Clarification on "Craft Wonderous Item"...

[Apophis775]

I was wondering, if they have the Feat+XP+Spell they want to cast, can they pretty much make any wonderous item they want (that falls within the limits of their ability) or is it only items from the list?

Specifically, the group wants to make 1 or 2 "bracelets of Lesser Vigor" to assist them. Their plan is this:

The cleric is about to hit level 3. When he does, he's going to take "Craft Wonderous Item"


His plan, is to create a magical bracelets (2 of them, one for the cleric, one for the bard) that holds 5 charges of Lesser Vigor per day. I'm wondering if I've got the math/creation done right:

Here's the "cost" prediction we currently have:

50 gold for a fine silver bracelet
Lesser Vigor is verbal/somatic, so no material cost
5 chargers per day and command word trigger make it's value 5850 gold, so it's cost is 2925 gold. and 234 XP Is this right? Total cost would be around 3k gold, and 234xp?

Is that right?

I'm not really objecting to this item(s), since their plan is to use it out of combat to restore the players to be able to adventure more effectivly, but I want to make sure that we are doing this right, since this method will probably become the "goto" method for future crafting (the cleric plans on supplementing their healing with magic items when possible).

[Flickerdart]

The cleric can only craft items that exist in the game. The only person who can add custom items into the game is the DM. The players can say, we want to make an item that does such and such a thing. But it's up to the DM to price it (or decide whether it should be allowed at all) and the guidelines recommend reviewing existing items.

For example, this is an item that heals 55HP per day, right? And does so over the course of 55 rounds, no less. Or the PCs can buy a healing belt from the Magic Item Compendium, which can heal 2d6 HP as a standard action, thrice a day, for 750gp. That's 21 HP on average. The PCs could simply craft three of these belts, and have better result than the bracelet for about a third of the price.

[Troacctid]

They can make items from the list if they have the prerequisites, and they can improve and/or combine items per the rules in MIC. However, they can only make custom items with the DM's express approval, because the DM has to manually set the price. The 5/day item of Lesser Vigor that you're describing, for example, would call for you as the DM to compare it against similar items (such as an Eternal Wand of Lesser Vigor or a Healing Belt) to determine an appropriate price point.

I think the one you've got there sounds fairly reasonable.

[Apophis775]

I made it, using the math under http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Creating_Magic_Items

The reason they like Lesser Vigor, is that they currently cast it between battles to heal up without wasting potions or spells that could heal in combat.

As I said, I wasn't worried about them making the item, I just wanted to make sure I did the math right and was setting it around where it should be for cost.

At first, they were thinking a "wand of lesser vigor" but the cleric wants a bracelet.

There was also discussion of a "wand of create water" because they constantly find interesting uses for Create water.

[Flickerdart]

As I said, I wasn't worried about them making the item, I just wanted to make sure I did the math right and was setting it around where it should be for cost.

You're setting it way too high, compared to the existing healing belt.

Hell, compare it to just wands of lesser vigor. At 5 charges per day, one wand lasts for 10 days of adventuring. For the price you set the bracelet they could buy nearly 8 of these wands. With an adventuring day lasting for 4 encounters, that's 320 encounters before the bracelets break even with wands. On average, a character levels up after 13.3 encounters, meaning that they would have gained 24 levels.

Unless your campaign is going to last until level 27, they should just buy wands. In addition to being more flexible (as in, you can use the wands 6 times per day, or 7, or 8) they can also buy one wand now and more when they can afford more. For the bracelets, they would need to have all that GP on hand at once, which is tough for a 3rd level party.

[Apophis775]

I'll suggest the wand. But i think they were set on the bracelet.

Oh also, it's "command word" because they want anyone in the group to be able to grab and use it.

[Troacctid]

Removing the need for a Use Magic Device check should indeed raise the item's price.

[Apophis775]

Removing the need for a Use Magic Device check should indeed raise the item's price.

Hence, command word 5/day charges Bracelet of Vigor was their solution.

[Barbarian Horde]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1000.0
This is a handbook to cost reduction on magical item and their creation.

Now if you start stacking these effects then I tell you now your DM is stupid if he doesn't throw the book at you.

[Apophis775]

I'm the DM, and I misunderstood. I thought they were casting it at level 3, but they were casting it at level 1.

Their base item was 1815 (15GP from a fancy dragon bracelet they had recovered from someone)

1x1x1800 for command word/1 (5 divided by 5 charges per day)

the total XP he spent was 73, and the party put together their spare gold and sold a ton of loot for the 907 gold and 5 silver they needed.

All in All, I think that the end result for the item, will result in a little less "downtime" and less resting after each individual encounter so they can move forward a bit better. Previously, they'd sometimes do 1 or 2 encounters and need to rest. They have no offensive caster, and 2 ranged characters who damage the party more than the enemy (we play that if you shoot into melee and miss only because of the -4 from shooting into melee, you roll an attack against the AC of whoever is engaging your target).

[Zancloufer]

Okay while the magical item creation rules are up to the DM there are a few things I do want to point out:

1) While they CAN make the item at CL 1 instead of CL 3 it does reduce the duration and make it easier to dispel the effect.

2) The Chages per day (up to 5) makes no sense tbh. An item that can be used 5 times a day and an item that can be used unlimited times per day appear to have the same cost. IJS. Now on that end an item that grants Fast Healing 1 for 15 rounds (or was it 10?) per day infinite times might be a little powerful for 1.8k GP. Also note that most magical items have to be masterwork which cost +150GP on top of the base item.

3) The minimum caster level for creating items is a little in the air. I would as a DM set some universal ground rules for it in the future.

[Eisfalken]

1) While they CAN make the item at CL 1 instead of CL 3 it does reduce the duration and make it easier to dispel the effect.

Duration isn't as huge a problem. It helps to have more CL, but it comes built in with a set duration that only benefits from CL 5th, no higher.

Dispel is a non-issue in this case; was specifically meant to be used between encounters, to reduce down-time. If they are being attacked with dispel, they are probably more interested in finding said enemy and putting a stop to that than repeatedly activating an easy-to-nullify item.


2) The Chages per day (up to 5) makes no sense tbh. An item that can be used 5 times a day and an item that can be used unlimited times per day appear to have the same cost. IJS. Now on that end an item that grants Fast Healing 1 for 15 rounds (or was it 10?) per day infinite times might be a little powerful for 1.8k GP. Also note that most magical items have to be masterwork which cost +150GP on top of the base item.

It's not really that powerful, though. Fast healing isn't even as good as actual regeneration, an ability given to an ECL 11 creature. Fast healing only cures hit point damage. I can't save them from debuffs, ability damage, vile damage (unless the cleric pops consecrate or hallow), ad endless nauseum. In fact, I don't need to worry about all that: all I need is to get you down to unconscious and/or helpless, and start slamming you with coup de gras until you fail the save or hit -10 hp. Fast healing can't negate that -10 hp making you dead thing. You die the moment you get to -10 hp, not after a round passes.

Should perma fast healing be costly? Sure as shootin'. Should it really break the bank? Nope. If the only threat to a PC's life is hp loss, the DM is doing it wrong.


3) The minimum caster level for creating items is a little in the air. I would as a DM set some universal ground rules for it in the future.

Then you're houseruling it, because the CL is actually not up in the air: the minimum is always the CL you need to cast the spell in the first place, and can't be weaker, only stronger.

And why do you even care?! Let's say they make a CL 20th bracer of lesser vigor that's at-will. Okay, it still only works 15 rounds and has to be specifically reactivated it. You get almost nothing more out of it other than it can't be destroyed easily with disjunction (but it totally still can be destroyed, of course, if someone is lucky/unlucky). And you pay such a stupidly high price for an item taking up a slot on your body anyway; I can spend the same money on something to fling out several (though not infinite) disintegrate spells. You will eventually fail that save, and if you don't the raw damage I inflict will destroy you in 2-3 rounds anyway (since anyone who dies to that damage is still disintegrated). Fast healing can't stop instant death. That includes death by negative levels, death attacks, etc.

Honestly? Lesser vigor SUCKS for down-time healing. 1 hp per round, max of 15 hp after 15 rounds? Garbage. It stops being effective after CL 3rd (cure moderate wounds heals an average of 14 hp the level you get it, with 1 standard action). It'd take most anyone north of 10th level several minutes to get back to full. And 5 charges a day won't even do more than than get you back to full once; after 15th level, it probably won't even do that (unless you're a d4 HD class, who dies if a baby hell hound sneezes on you). A wand with a higher-CL cure spell is both quicker and better in most ways. Christ, a pearl of power given to a cleric or druid is more efficient; at least then if you really are fixated on healing, you can have them throw down vigorous circle, which actually factually benefits from high CL, and gives waaaaaay more healing in the end. Heck, vigorous circle even remains semi-useful at epic levels, since it is one of the few spells that can break the barrier on its stats after 20th level (i.e. it can benefit from a CL of up to 40).

My advice is, stick to wands. If your players just refuse to play something with cure spells available, you have this amazing skill called Use Magic Device that means never having to force anyone to play something they don't want to. The average CL 1st wand of lesser vigor is 1 hp better on average than a cure light wounds wand, but higher level cure spells start to outperform the higher level vigors in terms of time and healing.

Does this mean the vigor spells suck? Hell no. Vigorous circle is something every cleric needs to be able to fire off in a pinch, preferably along with a mass cure spell for that burst healing (such as after a dragon's breath weapon hurts a lot of the party). But it's a tactical decision, see; you use fast healing so that you can turn away from casting non-stop cure spells every round and focus on buffs and/or other stuff (which is clutch; you need to end fights quick before you run out of spells, because some creatures don't run out of their stuff, like dragons' breath weapons).

But you need more than 1 hp/round to make it really useful, like vigorous circle. Fast healing 3 for a minimum of 21 rounds is 63 hit points... to at least 5 creatures; both duration (thus amount of healing per creature) and number of creatures get higher as you go up in level. That's pretty dang good stuff. Unless a specific PC gets in trouble, it frees up the cleric to start buffing himself or others, or the druid can turn into a dire lion or megaraptor or call down a lightning storm, or whatever. Yes, you'll still need to throw big heals out to individuals in trouble, but vigorous circle by itself can change a fight from you reacting to damage thrown out by enemies to them struggling to put even one of you down fast enough to stop the pain they are receiving from your damage dealers and debuffers/controllers.

TL;DR Vigor spells are only "efficient" as tactical in-combat spells, and only at higher level versions. It is better to invest in better items like wands and such, which can be used faster and with somewhat better effect.

[Cenric]

I think you have it backwards about cure and vigor. Cure is good in combat for "Im about to die" healing, vigor is the king of out of combat healing. 15hp from a first level slot is the best efficiency available, and sure a higher level cure does it all immediately, but thats using a higher level slot, which still doesnt match up to a first level slot. In combat when you get vigorous circle the dragons breath doing double digit damage isnt going to mind you fixing 3 of it up, especially if he can just put out another round of double digit damage in his full attack.

Id say out of combat healing shouldnt be too expensive, if its only 5/day I'd probably price it around 1500gp for a CL 5 item, maybe less if it takes up a body slot ~1250ish.

Is it gonna break your game to let them heal up between encounters? Probably not, unless your style is to throw lots of small mook fights at them and whittle down their HP.