Paladin Multiclassing Questions

[Azreal]

One of my campaigns is doing a hard reset for the world so my DM is allowing us to make new characters. My character concept right now is a descendant of a demon Prince who wields a Scythe (because cliches are fun) but worships Pelor.

I know I want to at least dip into Paladin for the Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon stuff, but I'm not sure what the best way to multiclass to get some casting going for me as well.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

One of my campaigns is doing a hard reset for the world so my DM is allowing us to make new characters. My character concept right now is a descendant of a demon Prince who wields a Scythe (because cliches are fun) but worships Pelor.

I know I want to at least dip into Paladin for the Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon stuff, but I'm not sure what the best way to multiclass to get some casting going for me as well.

Paladin 17/warlock 3 is a popular build. If you want more spell slots, you could go Paladin 12/sorcerer 8. Smite, smite, smite!!!

[bid]

Paladin 6 is way too classic, you should delay MC until then. Prepared spells is a powerful mechanic for paladin, you can change spells every day since you "know" them all, this makes paladin 9 and 3rd spells very strong.

Another well-liked approach is paladin 2 / sorcerer 3 which gains smites faster, at a cost.

[Azreal]

We would be starting relatively high level actually between 12 - 15. So what are some good splits to make with that? We can expect to reach near 20 by the end of the campaign however.

[Xetheral]

Paladin/Sorcerer/Warlock is a great combination at the higher levels you're playing at. The ability to convert the warlock's short-rest spell slots in sorcery points, and then convert those sorcery points into more spell slots, gives you a substantial boost in available spell slots whenever short rests are frequent. You can even benefit from multiple short rests back-to-back should circumstances permit (rare when traveling or in dungeons, but city adventures often have a lot of waiting for other characters to, e.g., shop, or otherwise have plot-driven downtime: "I'm sorry, the grand vizier can't see you until this afternoon..."). It's the combination that makes the Sorcerer/Warlock combination so good, but with the addition of Paladin you'll have an additional way to burn through all those extra spell slots, and that's useful flexibility.

The combination works well with a variety of level distributions. I suggest considering:

Paladin: 2 or 6 (or 7 if Ancients or Oathbreaker) or even 11
Sorcerer: 3+ (or 6+ if Favored Soul and leaving Paladin at 2 and don't want to go Blade Pact)
Warlock: 3+ (or 6+ Blade if you're not getting Extra Attack from Paladin or Favored Soul) (if Tome, grab Shillelagh to become entirely charisma-focused, other than MC prerequisites.

[Arkhios]

Extra Attack is too good to further delay in my opinion, no matter which multi-class you went from a paladin or any other class that gets it for that matter. Paladin 6 before anything else would be my suggestion as well. Depending on the Oath you could advance to 7th (Ancients!), and depending on your choice of combat style, 9th level for 3rd level spells (elemental weapon!), or you could stay at 6th if you prefer casting more and whacking less. Paladin alone has very limited amount of spell slots to use (and lose), so a sorcerer might be best if you want a little extra low level slots, and higher overall slots. Warlock is better if you want more consistent casting from encounter to another, but it costs in the level of those slots and those of Paladin's since standard spellcasting and pact magic don't stack.

Paladin 6/Sorcerer 6 would net you the following:

Lay on Hands for up to 30 HP worth/day
Divine Smite (from 2d8 to the maximum of 5d8, depending on spell slot spent)
Divine Health (immunity vs. disease)
Sacred Oath (with this level spread: I'd suggest Devotion or if you start at 13th level, pick paladin 7 and Oath of the Ancients for Aura of Warding, since both of these Oaths fit well for Pelor's worshiper)
Extra Attack
Aura of Protection (your charisma modifier on top of all saves for you and allies within 10 feet; note: including concentration checks, as they are constitution saving throws)
(Aura of Warding if 7th level Oath of the Ancients: resistance against spell damage to you and all allies within 10 feet)
Total Spellcasting of 9th level (3 from paladin, 6 from sorcerer):

access to 5th level spell slots
access to 2nd level spells from paladin
access to 3rd level spells from sorcerer

6 Sorcery Points which can be spent to create additional spell slots of up to 4th level in your case.
2 Metamagic options (quickened might be good at least, and either twinned or empowered)
1st and 6th level sorcerous origin features (I wouldn't recommend favored soul for two reasons. First, the features from these levels would go to waste (armor and weapon proficiencies, and extra attack), and secondly, favored souls are a bit fiddly to say the least. The extra spells known are certainly nifty, but the feature feels a tad too overpowered. After all, it's from UA, and generally UA tends to be untested and quite possibly broken in terms of balance.)
Two Ability Score Improvements


Paladin 6/Warlock 6 would net you the following:

Lay on Hands for up to 30 HP worth/day
Divine Smite (from 2d8 to the maximum of 4d8, depending on spell slot spent; if you used your warlock slots for Divine Smites, they'd always be +4d8, which is quite nice burst)
Divine Health (immunity vs. disease)
Sacred Oath (with this level spread: I'd suggest Devotion or if you start at 13th level, pick paladin 7 and Oath of the Ancients for Aura of Warding, since both of these Oaths fit well for Pelor's worshiper)
Extra Attack
Aura of Protection (your charisma modifier on top of all saves for you and allies within 10 feet; note: including concentration checks, as they are constitution saving throws)
(Aura of Warding if 7th level Oath of the Ancients: resistance against spell damage to you and all allies within 10 feet)
Total Spellcasting of 3rd level from paladin and a separate 5th level from warlock:

access to up to 2nd level spells and spell slots from paladin
access to up to 3rd level spells from warlock, and constantly 3rd level spell slots from warlock, which refresh on a short rest, but you'd have only 2 per rest.

probably the best (long range) cantrip in the game (Eldritch Blast)
3 invocations which you could focus on improving your Eldritch Blast, in case you find yourself unable to fight in melee range.
Thematically Fiend Patron would be a best fit for your concept, and the features from 3rd and 6th levels are pretty nice for a melee character.
Blade Pact warlock would be great even though you already have Extra Attack; you don't have to take the Thirsting Blade invocation for this to be viable. An always magical pact weapon is really good boon on its own already.
Two Ability Score Improvements


Paladin 6/Bard 6 would net you the following:

Lay on Hands for up to 30 HP worth/day
Divine Smite (from 2d8 to the maximum of 5d8, depending on spell slot spent)
Divine Health (immunity vs. disease)
Sacred Oath (with this level spread: I'd suggest Devotion or if you start at 13th level, pick paladin 7 and Oath of the Ancients for Aura of Warding, since both of these Oaths fit well for Pelor's worshiper)
Extra Attack
Aura of Protection (your charisma modifier on top of all saves for you and allies within 10 feet; note: including concentration checks, as they are constitution saving throws)
(Aura of Warding if 7th level Oath of the Ancients: resistance against spell damage to you and all allies within 10 feet)
Total Spellcasting of 9th level (3 from paladin, 6 from bard):

access to 5th level spell slots
access to 2nd level spells from paladin
access to 3rd level spells from bard

Bardic Inspiration (1d8) x Charisma modifier/short rest (used to help your allies in ability checks, attacks, or saving throws)
Song of Rest (1d6) to help you and your allies recover better after short rests.
Jack of all Trades (half your proficiency bonus on all ability checks with which you're not yet proficient with, most notably your Initiative check, which is a Dexterity check)
Expertise on two skills of your choice
College of Lore would be better of the two from officially published material, because most College of Valor features would go to waste (armor and weapon proficiencies, and extra attack), and because you would get 2 additional spells known from ANY class list (which would then become bard spells for you, and thus castable with Charisma), and because of Cutting Words and bonus skill proficiencies

Cutting Words as an alternative use of bardic inspiration (as a reaction, you can roll your bardic inspiration to mess with enemies' attack rolls, ability checks, or damage rolls within 60 feet of you)
Three of additional skill proficiencies

Countercharm your allies that have been charmed or frightened.
Two Ability Score Improvements

[shuangwucanada]

Sacred Oath (with this level spread: I'd suggest Devotion or if you start at 13th level, pick paladin 7 and Oath of the Ancients for Aura of Warding, since both of these Oaths fit well for Pelor's worshiper)



I thought the Oath of the Ancients are worshipers of Arvoreen or Corellen (SCAG page 132). They are green knights, should they be more nature oriented?

[Arkhios]

I thought the Oath of the Ancients are worshipers of Arvoreen or Corellen (SCAG page 132). They are green knights, should they be more nature oriented?

They could be pelorites as well, since their tenets speak of kindling the light and the life. Pelor is the god of Sun (with domains Light and Life), and in that way, very closely related to nature itself, I'd say.
Oath of the Ancients paladins are not exclusively green knights, thats just one thing they've been called.

Note that anything written in the PHB or SCAG about their lore aren't the absolute truth. They are just suggestions.

[shuangwucanada]

They could be pelorites as well, since their whole tenets speak of kindling the light and the life. Pelor is the god of Sun (with domains Light and Life), and in that way, very closely related to nature itself, I'd say.
Oath of the Ancients paladins are not exclusively green knights, thats just one thing they've been called.

Note that anything written in the PHB or SCAG about their lore aren't the absolute truth. They are just suggestions.

I see... What do you think of paladin/bard multiclassing?

When I play paladin (multiple times with different oaths) I found it hard to utilize my bonus action with high efficiency (and your spell slots are precious resources) because those smite spells are not as good as divine smite plus they requires concentration, plus some DM may not allow multiple smite effects to stack (mine does, but I can imagine some don't).

Bard seems to provide a lot of useful (and resource-light, unlike sorcerer's quicken spell) bonus actions (healing word, inspiration dice, etc.). At level 6 you also get magic secret from any list and you can go nuts from there!

For example if your DM allows it, you can pick spirit guardian combo with devotion paladin's sanctuary. Or you can go conjure animals which can benefit from your auras. Or sometime some lower level spells are good too, like spiritual weapon that gives you one extra attack per turn, etc.

[Arkhios]

I see... What do you think of paladin/bard multiclassing?

When I play paladin (multiple times with different oaths) I found it hard to utilize my bonus action with high efficiency (and your spell slots are precious resources) because those smite spells are not as good as divine smite plus they requires concentration, plus some DM may not allow multiple smite effects to stack (mine does, but I can imagine some don't).

Bard seems to provide a lot of useful (and resource-light, unlike sorcerer's quicken spell) bonus actions (healing word, inspiration dice, etc.). At level 6 you also get magic secret from any list and you can go nuts from there!

For example if your DM allows it, you can pick spirit guardian combo with devotion paladin's sanctuary. Or you can go conjure animals which can benefit from your auras. Or sometime some lower level spells are good too, like spiritual weapon that gives you one extra attack per turn, etc.

Yeah, paladin6/bard6 would be great as well. Afterwards I meant to do a third breakdown of this combination, but I got interrupted by work, and now I'm on my celly, but I might edit my post later to add that too.

[Biggstick]

Another option if you want to focus more on spell casting is Paladin 2 / Bard 10. Go College of Lore, consider taking the Inspiring Leader feat (for more short rest goodies for your party), have access to 2 sets of Magical Secrets, tons of spell slots (Level 5 Bard spells, but one level 6 slot!).

Pretty beefy spell caster build that can drop smites and spells all day.

[Arkhios]

Edited a Paladin 6/Bard 6 build breakdown to an earlier post if someone (such as OP) is interested.

[MrStabby]

I once played a paladin/bard with shield mastery who used the expertise from lore bard to help with the shove checks. |I found this to be a powerful character.

As suggested lvl 6 in each is what you want to aim for. Jack of all trades and counterspell is awesome, bonus action shove is awesome, advantage on attacks when you have smites is awesome... The problem is ASIs. With a 6/6 start and using an ASI for shield mastery you get your fist stat increase at level 10, which kind of hurts (or level 4 if you go V.human, but miss out on the
bonus stats from some good races).


Sorcerer is a better addition if you want more peak power though. Quicken spell on a sorcerer is somewhat balanced as the best (usually) a sorcerer can do is to also cast a cantrip in the same turn. A paladin sorcerer can instead make two attacks with potential smite damage etc.. Openings like quicken hold person followed by two critical hits from your attacks with all smite damage doubled as well is a very powerful start to many encounters.

[Azreal]

Edited a Paladin 6/Bard 6 build breakdown to an earlier post if someone (such as OP) is interested.

I am interested. Honestly I'm definitely leaning towards Lore Bard especially since they potential to pick up 2 9th level spells is there, unless I'm misunderstanding Magical Secrets.

[Arkhios]

I am interested. Honestly I'm definitely leaning towards Lore Bard especially since they potential to pick up 2 9th level spells is there, unless I'm misunderstanding Magical Secrets.

You are. (Don't fret, it's quite common misunderstanding).
You calculate the potential level from your bard level.

Spell levels and spell slot level progress separately from each other.
While you are able to cast spells from 5th level slots, your spells known continue to cap in regards to your class levels.
A 6th level bard can only know up to 3rd level spells. Even when they come from magical secrets.

However, with lore bard you could get the otherwise paladin-only spell, Elemental Weapon, even if you left your paladin level at 6th level and never looked back. It would therefrom be a bard spell for you.

[bid]

However, with lore bard you could get the otherwise paladin-only spell, Elemental Weapon, even if you left your paladin level at 6th level and never looked back. It would therefrom be a bard spell for you.
As opposed to being able to pick and choose any/all 3rd spells every day from paladin 9. It's not an easy choice.

[Arkhios]

As opposed to being able to pick and choose any/all 3rd spells every day from paladin 9. It's not an easy choice.

Yes, I know this from personal experience. I fought with the dilemma for a long time a while back. (Eventually I chose to drop the idea of multiclassing altogether)

[BiPolar]

One of my campaigns is doing a hard reset for the world so my DM is allowing us to make new characters. My character concept right now is a descendant of a demon Prince who wields a Scythe (because cliches are fun) but worships Pelor.

I know I want to at least dip into Paladin for the Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon stuff, but I'm not sure what the best way to multiclass to get some casting going for me as well.

I think your background presents some options, but have you identified what Oath you plan on taking?

[Azreal]

I think your background presents some options, but have you identified what Oath you plan on taking?

I'm pretty torn between Devotion and Ancients. Both fit rather well so I think in the end I may just make a roll of the dice to determine my fate.

[BiPolar]

I'm pretty torn between Devotion and Ancients. Both fit rather well so I think in the end I may just make a roll of the dice to determine my fate.

Thank you! Have you also thought about fighting style?

I've always got concerns with multiclassing, and with Paladins, many of those concerns continue. You're starting your campaign at Level 12, so that does give you some options. However, I think you'll want to get 11 levels in Paladin. I think you really want the Paladin class features of Extra attack, aura of protection, aura of courage and Improved Divine Smite. By sticking Paladin until level 12, you'll get all of those plus your oath extras through level 7.

At that point, you may as well stick through it to 12 to get your next ability score/feat.

After that, many of the features start to lessen. Cleansing touch is a pocket sized Dispel Magic at no spell slot cost, which is pretty damn awesome. However, if you can make up for that with multiclassing, then it's not a huge loss.

Level 15 for Oath feature, whether the constant protection from good/evil or the half-orc ability of choosing to drop to 1HP instead of unconscious is pretty nice, but I think the benefits of classing into something else may outweigh it.

THe spell options as you get into 4th or nice, but again, I think a multiclass may give you more than you get by sticking with paladin. But you shouldn't do it until you get through level 12.

However, I'm typically not a multiclasser and think that the benefits often don't outweigh the delays.

EDIT: I also clearly didn't read your first post at all :( I thought you were going for paladin primary and dip into casting class(es) to supplement. But really, you're talking about the opposite! Not quite sure how to answer now :/

[Arkhios]

I just realized that cutting words combined with Aura of Warding works wonders.
Cutting Words can be used to reduce damage rolls. AoE spell's damage is rolled only once!

So, first your always active Aura of Warding reduces the spell damage to half (resistance), then, as a reaction you can reduce it even further by an amount rolled with Cutting Words Bardic Inspiration!

[Mastro]

I know I want to at least dip into Paladin for the Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon stuff, but I'm not sure what the best way to multiclass to get some casting going for me as well.

Unfortunately, Multiclassing into Paladin does NOT give proficiency in heavy armor. However, picking up the Heavily Armored Feat can change that, because MCing to Paladin DOES give you proficiency in Medium Armor.

[Azreal]

Unfortunately, Multiclassing into Paladin does NOT give proficiency in heavy armor. However, picking up the Heavily Armored Feat can change that, because MCing to Paladin DOES give you proficiency in Medium Armor.

I realize now I worded that poorly. I meant that I would be starting as a Paladin and going into something else.