Burning domains for Devotion feats

[KernelKertz]

So, Complete Champion has precious little information on what it looks like for a Cleric to burn a domain for the associated Devotion feat. I have two questions:

1) I understand that the Devotions should be under my deity's umbrella, but can I only burn one of the two domains I choose at Cleric creation? If so, then do I have only one domain until a PrC or something else awards me a replacement?

2) When can I choose to burn a domain? Are those Devotion feats bonus feats to be taken at will, or do I have to wait until a natural feat opportunity to choose to burn a domain for the feat?

Depending on the answers to these, I may just go the non-burning route. Thanks for your help!

[animewatcha]

You make the choice at the time you gain it. I've seen builds be done that burn all the domains ( like knowledge devotion for cloistered clerics ). The devotions have to fit within the theme of your deity/character. A cleric of ilmater wanting t o do chaos devotion is a no.

[Troacctid]

So, Complete Champion has precious little information on what it looks like for a Cleric to burn a domain for the associated Devotion feat. I have two questions:

1) I understand that the Devotions should be under my deity's umbrella, but can I only burn one of the two domains I choose at Cleric creation? If so, then do I have only one domain until a PrC or something else awards me a replacement?
The relevant rule:

In addition, you can choose to give up access to a domain in exchange for the corresponding domain feat. Doing so allows you to select up to three domain feats, but you cannot prepare domain spells or use the granted power of the sacrificed domain. In essence, you trade in a domain for an extra feat slot that you can spend only on a specific domain feat.
You can give up a domain, singular. So just one.


2) When can I choose to burn a domain? Are those Devotion feats bonus feats to be taken at will, or do I have to wait until a natural feat opportunity to choose to burn a domain for the feat?
It is a bonus feat. It's not totally clear when, time-wise, you can make the exchange, but as a DM, I treat it as an alternate class feature, so you must either make the decision at the level you gain the domain, or do it via retraining as part of a future level-up. I think that's the most common interpretation.

[Darrin]

You can give up a domain, singular. So just one.


Up to three, actually.



In addition, you can choose to give up access to a domain in exchange for the corresponding domain feat. Doing so allows you to select up to three domain feats, but you cannot prepare domain spells or use the granted power of the sacrificed domain. In essence, you trade in a domain for an extra feat slot that you can spend only on a specific domain feat.
(emphasis added)

So yes, a Cleric 1 can trade their two domains for two devotion feats. If they gain access to a third domain later (usually through a PrC, such as Contemplative), then presumably they can make the swap to a corresponding Devotion feat at that time.

There is also the Cloistered Cleric variant from Unearthed Arcana, which starts with two domains plus the Knowledge domain, and could thus conceivably trade away all three domains. However, Knowledge Devotion has an additional prereq: 5 ranks in a Knowledge skill, which isn't possible at 1st level (outside of a human with Favored/Primary Contact). So you either need to wait until a later level to go into Cloistered Cleric, make the switch at Cloistered Cleric 2 when you have enough ranks, or ignore the prereq.

Every other devotion feat can be taken at 1st level, so it seems particularly puzzling that you can't do this with Knowledge Devotion. It's probably an error the editors didn't catch, so this is one example where you might want to say "table trumps text".

[Pluto!]

If you give up a domain, that domain is gone and it's not coming back.

There is no information provided about when you make the exchange (or the turn undead => extra uses exchange). It really looks like a character-building option to me and there is absolutely no support regarding the logistics of how the exchange would work if done as an in-combat tactical move, but I've also heard PlzBreakMyCampaign talk up the opposing reading, so interpretation is up to you.

[KernelKertz]

Thanks everyone! To summarize just to make sure I'm understanding:

The only domains I have the option of burning are the ones I chose for my Cleric when it started (or when a PrC or something gave me access to a third domain), I can do one or both for their Devotion feat and in so doing lose the opportunity to have that second or first domain. Also, there isn't a strong consensus as to when the burning takes place, but it does not use a normal advancement feat slot.

[Troacctid]

Up to three, actually.

(emphasis added)

So yes, a Cleric 1 can trade their two domains for two devotion feats. If they gain access to a third domain later (usually through a PrC, such as Contemplative), then presumably they can make the swap to a corresponding Devotion feat at that time.
You are missing that WITHOUT trading in domains, you are limited to a max of two domain feats. WITH trading in a domain, you can get up to three. Which kind of implies the opposite of what you're saying—i.e. that you can only trade one domain for a domain feat.

[Darrin]

You are missing that WITHOUT trading in domains, you are limited to a max of two domain feats. WITH trading in a domain, you can get up to three. Which kind of implies the opposite of what you're saying—i.e. that you can only trade one domain for a domain feat.

Ah, I understand now. I always thought both domains could be traded, but that doesn't explain what happens to your domain slots if you trade away all your domains (that is, they become useless). It looks like the designers didn't intend that to happen.

However... from a RAW standpoint, it's still ambiguous. By the current wording, I don't see anything explicitly forbidding a Cloistered Cleric trading out all three domains, so long as he meets the prereqs and doesn't get any Devotion feats in his normal feat slots.

[Thurbane]

There is also the Cloistered Cleric variant from Unearthed Arcana, which starts with two domains plus the Knowledge domain, and could thus conceivably trade away all three domains. However, Knowledge Devotion has an additional prereq: 5 ranks in a Knowledge skill, which isn't possible at 1st level (outside of a human with Favored/Primary Contact).

Unless you can get a ton of extra cash at character generation and buy a copy of the Codex Anathema - although being a Cleirc, you probably don't want an item that hurts your casting stat. :smalltongue:

Alternatively, you could also take a level of another class before your first level of Cloistered Cleric. I have seen builds that go Ninja 1/CC 19, for skillmonkeying and Wis to AC. Or Human Paragon.