immortals handbooks

[Raishoiken]

So I've semi-recently gotten ahold of two of the booms in this series, being ascension and the first bestiary, and they seem to have some pretty interesting stuff in them. What do you guys think of these books?

[Necromancy]

http://www.somethingawful.com/dungeons-and-dragons/epic-level-insanity/1/

[Necroticplague]

It's often said that if you gave a thousand monkeys an infinite amount of time, they will eventually write the complete works of shakespeare, earnest hemmingway, and lovecraft ordered in alphabetical order. Unfortunately, in the process of doing so, there's gonna be a bunch of start ups and failures that are mostly incoherent messes of massive numbers. The immortals handbook is one such set. It's a horrible monstrosity created by taking a system meant for 1-20, and plugging in numbers in the mid thousands (level twenty is already reaching godlike levels of power, so what the heck is level 20,000 supposed to represent?). Actually playing at the kinds of levels against these challenges recommends is simultaneously so mechanically involved as to be a chore, while so many things become meaningless as to be pointless. Basically everything is an incredibly annoying binary due to how massive all the numbers are: everything isd either solved in one short swoop, or completely intractable.

[Necromancy]

It's playable if you're good with Excel, otherwise rolling up a two thousand hit die monster will take a while

[Âmesang]

I recall trying to use my hordling generator to generate a CR 1,000,000 hordling.

I think the page took so long to load that it just wasn't worth the effort, even for funsies.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I seem to recall that the 9000 HD neutronium golem (or whatever) could be defeated by grease, since it doesn't have ranks in Balance. But I may misremember.

[Flickerdart]

http://www.somethingawful.com/dungeons-and-dragons/epic-level-insanity/1/

Haven't laughed this hard in years. Thank you so much for that link.

[Karl Aegis]

I seem to recall that the 9000 HD neutronium golem (or whatever) could be defeated by grease, since it doesn't have ranks in Balance. But I may misremember.

By that point you're done because it has Spell Stowaway (Grease) and can cast Grease itself.

[Necromancy]

I seem to recall that the 9000 HD neutronium golem (or whatever) could be defeated by grease, since it doesn't have ranks in Balance. But I may misremember.

Except you die from radiation or gravity or something if you're within 30 miles of it.

I read up to the entry for those when he started talking about them being minions of the Time Lords and that's about where I gave up

[Willie the Duck]

I seem to recall that the 9000 HD neutronium golem (or whatever) could be defeated by grease, since it doesn't have ranks in Balance. But I may misremember.

Well that's what I dislike about high level play, it usually comes down to each side searching out for some random vulnerable opening that the other side didn't think to nail shut. Forget rocket tag, the game devolves into loophole tag.

[Necromancy]

Well that's what I dislike about high level play, it usually comes down to each side searching out for some random vulnerable opening that the other side didn't think to nail shut. Forget rocket tag, the game devolves into loophole tag.



GOLEM, NEUTRONIUM Neutraliser
Large Construct
Hit Dice: 250d1000+1,966,080 (2,216,080 hp)
Initiative: +79
Speed: Fly 5,901,426,338 ft. (perfect) (1,180,285,267 squares)
Armor Class: 932 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +80 gravitic mastery, +844 natural), touch 88, flat-footed 932
Base Attack/Grapple: +187/+437
Attack: Slam +512 melee (40,960d10+246; average 225,526)
Full Attack: 2 slams +512 melee (40,960d10+246; average 225,526) Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Gravitic aura, heat aura, pulsed x-ray, starquake Special Qualities: Accretion, construct traits, damage reduction 1500/-, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 1500, gravitic mastery, immunity to magic, low-light vision, magnetar, superluminal, unearthly construction Saves: Fort +163, Ref +162, Will +163
Abilities: Str 502 (+246), Dex 9, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1 Environment: Outer space
Organization: Solitary, patrol (2-4), or with time lord (DvR 192, 960 HD) Challenge Rating: 9721
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 251-353 HD (Large), 354-707 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: +17,427 (assuming intelligence/sentience)



You have any suggestions for a non-loophole kill?

[Douglas]

Well that's what I dislike about high level play, it usually comes down to each side searching out for some random vulnerable opening that the other side didn't think to nail shut. Forget rocket tag, the game devolves into loophole tag.
I can personally testify to this, having participated in a level 74 playtest against a pseudo-deity run by a significantly competent optimizer. Both the party and the enemy had great big long lists of immunities, and combat essentially consisted of trying to find an immunity that was missing from the other side's list.

[Willie the Duck]

You have any suggestions for a non-loophole kill?

That's the point.

[Gildedragon]

GOLEM, NEUTRONIUM Neutraliser
Large Construct
Hit Dice: 250d1000+1,966,080 (2,216,080 hp)
Initiative: +79
Speed: Fly 5,901,426,338 ft. (perfect) (1,180,285,267 squares)
Armor Class: 932 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +80 gravitic mastery, +844 natural), touch 88, flat-footed 932
Base Attack/Grapple: +187/+437
Attack: Slam +512 melee (40,960d10+246; average 225,526)
Full Attack: 2 slams +512 melee (40,960d10+246; average 225,526) Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Gravitic aura, heat aura, pulsed x-ray, starquake Special Qualities: Accretion, construct traits, damage reduction 1500/-, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 1500, gravitic mastery, immunity to magic, low-light vision, magnetar, superluminal, unearthly construction Saves: Fort +163, Ref +162, Will +163
Abilities: Str 502 (+246), Dex 9, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1 Environment: Outer space
Organization: Solitary, patrol (2-4), or with time lord (DvR 192, 960 HD) Challenge Rating: 9721
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 251-353 HD (Large), 354-707 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: +17,427 (assuming intelligence/sentience)


By Corellon's Corruscating Co...untenance!
Those numbers! They are more befitting a JRPG with its granular damage and very very high levels of anything. How in the infinite layers is one supposed to roll those dice? Let alone count them without tripping over one's own numbers!

[Flickerdart]

By Corellon's Corruscating Co...untenance!
Those numbers! They are more befitting a JRPG with its granular damage and very very high levels of anything. How in the infinite layers is one supposed to roll those dice? Let alone count them without tripping over one's own numbers!
Your mistake is assuming these monsters are meant to appear in games, rather than in the deepest, most erotic dreams of the author.

[Necromancy]

By Corellon's Corruscating Co...untenance!
Those numbers! They are more befitting a JRPG with its granular damage and very very high levels of anything. How in the infinite layers is one supposed to roll those dice? Let alone count them without tripping over one's own numbers!


You should see the SA/SQs



TABLE G-2: NEUTRONIUM GOLEM HEAT AURA
Radius
20 miles
62d1000 (average 31,031)
60 miles
15d1000 (average 7507)
200 miles
3d1000 (average 1501)
600 miles
1d1000 (average 500)



Pulsed X-Ray (Su): A neutronium golem can emit a pulsed x-ray each round as a free action. This wave targets everything within a 1000-mile spread centered on the golem. Those within the area of effect immediately suffer 125d1000 divine fire damage (average 62,562) with no save.

[Battleship789]

I seem to recall that the main complaints for the Immortal's Handbook were a lack of new mechanics and some small editing errors where every number had two to four extra zeros tacked onto the end and the word "feet" got find-replaced to "miles."

[ComaVision]

I can personally testify to this, having participated in a level 74 playtest against a pseudo-deity run by a significantly competent optimizer. Both the party and the enemy had great big long lists of immunities, and combat essentially consisted of trying to find an immunity that was missing from the other side's list.

See, the problem is that you were still playing with dice. At that point, it's best to use the c52 system. I think some people call it "Go Fish".

[Telonius]

Flame's Blessing and 19 ranks of Tumble will let you ignore the heat aura (unless it's some damage other than fire). Make sure you can hit an AC 88. Teleport next to it, wraithstrike, and crit with a Mace of Smiting.

[Gildedragon]

Flame's Blessing and 19 ranks of Tumble will let you ignore the heat aura (unless it's some damage other than fire). Make sure you can hit an AC 88. Teleport next to it, wraithstrike, and crit with a Mace of Smiting.

Divine Fire is probably like flamestrike's fire: half divine damage half fire damage

But my impression is that after certain point you just start over and assume you're playing at a wholly different level where anyone below that cutoff point can't even touch you, and you always hit and one hit kill them. Your new bab is +1 and it is relative to this new tier of reality. Wish is as Prestidigitation, Spells lower than 9 are less than cantrips and hence not cast. The new-tier fire overcomes ANY lower fire resistance etc... Skeletons are an adequate representation of a lich's power against you (no relevant spells, no intelligence (to speak of)), the tarasque is a rat...

[Eldariel]

By Corellon's Corruscating Co...untenance!
Those numbers! They are more befitting a JRPG with its granular damage and very very high levels of anything. How in the infinite layers is one supposed to roll those dice? Let alone count them without tripping over one's own numbers!

The sad part is, not a single one of those is least bit meaningful since it's trivial to be immune to everything it does and it isn't particularly good at overcoming any immunities. Nor most of the stuff in Immortals Handbook. The designer fundamentally misunderstands the nature of high level D&D (luckily you can use averages for dice piles that high).


I can personally testify to this, having participated in a level 74 playtest against a pseudo-deity run by a significantly competent optimizer. Both the party and the enemy had great big long lists of immunities, and combat essentially consisted of trying to find an immunity that was missing from the other side's list.

Yeah, this is high level game in a nutshell, or even high optimization mid level game (Persistomancers get to play it pretty early on, particularly if we're talking the AMF-immune kind like Initiate of Mystra or Shadow Weave Magic). Though there's also the aspect of trying to subvert or punch through any given immunity (there are some such abilities in the game) and indirect approach (Wishes, on epic levels tailored Epic Spells, etc.). Once everybody essentially has access to every special ability in the game through Shapechange though, things begin to get tricky.


EDIT:

Flame's Blessing and 19 ranks of Tumble will let you ignore the heat aura (unless it's some damage other than fire). Make sure you can hit an AC 88. Teleport next to it, wraithstrike, and crit with a Mace of Smiting.

Surge of Fortune [CC] allows you to automatically threaten crit and Limited Wish allows you to autohit so you can remove the need to roll dice with some magic on the previous turn. There's some stuff that automatically confirms crit too so your attack stats literally don't matter. You can persist Delay Death and Beastland Ferocity or e.g. Troll-blooded feat/spells like Trollshape/Shapechange/any way to acquire Regeneration + Favor of the Martyr to be immune to whatever damage it can deal.

[Necroticplague]

Easy: Get an optimized Hulking Hurler for those levels. Even non-epic hulking hurlers with some TO levels of optimization can have damage capable of one-shotting that thing. At the levels it's a CR-appropriate challenge for, hitting it's incredibly high AC is actually rather trivial (9721 levels, even in all poor BaB classes, would give you Bab+epic attack bonus of 4861). Take the Distant Shot feat so you can hurl from outside it's various lethal auras.

So basically, beating hilariously big numbers with even more hilariously big numbers.

[Eldariel]

Easy: Get an optimized Hulking Hurler for those levels. Even non-epic hulking hurlers with some TO levels of optimization can have damage capable of one-shotting that thing. At the levels it's a CR-appropriate challenge for, hitting it's incredibly high AC is actually rather trivial (9721 levels, even in all poor BaB classes, would give you Bab+epic attack bonus of 4861). Take the Distant Shot feat so you can hurl from outside it's various lethal auras.

So basically, beating hilariously big numbers with even more hilariously big numbers.

I'm pretty sure an optimized level 20 Hulking Hurler would be more than able to one-shot it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You have any suggestions for a non-loophole kill?
This looks like a job for Wedded to History (Golden Ager) and the follow-up feat Master's Voice.

"You may, as a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, attempt to assert control over an unintelligent construct or undead. This requires a Use Magic Device check (DC 20 + creature's HD). If you succeed, you may, as a standard action, command it to perform any task it is capable of performing."

DC 270 UMD is not very easy*, but it's a pretty hilarious way to take out the big bad golem. Command it to fail its save against a supernatural greater humanoid essence (or suppress its magic immunity for a round), and hit it with a point of charisma drain. Problem solved.



*On the other hand, it's CR 9721, for some stupid reason (almost 40 times higher than its HD, with LA +17 427!?). If you don't have +300 UMD at that point, I don't know what you're doing with your skill points.

[Necroticplague]

I'm pretty sure an optimized level 20 Hulking Hurler would be more than able to one-shot it.

That's my point. A level 20 can one-shot it, but might have some trouble hitting. A level 9521 should have no problem hitting it and one shot it by several orders of magnitude.

[Necromancy]

That's my point. A level 20 can one-shot it, but might have some trouble hitting. A level 9521 should have no problem hitting it and one shot it by several orders of magnitude.

How could a level 20 one shot it?

[Eldariel]

That's my point. A level 20 can one-shot it, but might have some trouble hitting. A level 9521 should have no problem hitting it and one shot it by several orders of magnitude.

You can use any of the autohit abilities in the game to circumvent that. Such as Limited Wish or Surge of Fortune.


How could a level 20 one shot it?

Properly stacked Hulking Hurlers begin throwing moons and doing equivalent damage. Properly stacked chargers deal damage preferably expressed in scientific notation. Once you stack enough multipliers, 2 million is frankly quite tame by level 20.

EDIT: Apparently current non-infinite damage world record is (2.5*10^36530)^^73600 - much bigger than we have named numbers for (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6571.0). There are also infinite damage comboes (easiest being the 1d2 Crusader), infinite stats (original Pun-Pun started with these) and so on. Basically, if you want to, you can bend the system over backwards to do pretty much whatever you want.

[Necroticplague]

How could a level 20 one shot it?

Through the use of Overburdened Heave so you can throw a medium load object as a weapon. Use the CWar rule for improvised weapons based on their weight. Abuse the fact carrying capacity increases quadratically as stregnth rises linearly, then further take advantage of unique carrying capacity multipliers (large size, multiple legs, natural heavyweight, belt of wide earth) so have your medium load be an incredibly heavy object. Then, fling it for a whole ton of damage.

[Eldariel]

Through the use of Overburdened Heave so you can throw a medium load object as a weapon. Use the CWar rule for improvised weapons based on their weight. Abuse the fact carrying capacity increases quadratically as stregnth rises linearly, then further take advantage of unique carrying capacity multipliers (large size, multiple legs, natural heavyweight, belt of wide earth) so have your medium load be an incredibly heavy object. Then, fling it for a whole ton of damage.

I recall the thread (sadly can't find the right page on Gleemax Archives) had a build that was dealing like 262000000d6 damage per throw (average ~0.9 milliard or 9 * 10 ^ 8 damage) with all the strength stacking. Though I'm guessing with modern optimization technology we could easily improve upon that millionfold.

EDIT: This is the thread (http://web.archive.org/web/20130723190034/http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873078/Hulking_Hurler_build?pg=99) on Web.Archive. Sadly it's over a hundred pages long and search functions don't work on Archive and some sites are not archived so it's a bit of a pain to find what you're looking for.

EDIT#2: Ah, rockdeworld had a Tauric Hulking Hurler here. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16918028&postcount=6), some basic numbers. Basically, Tauric is stupid and no matter how many templates the combined creatures have, it gets no extra LA so you can have an experimenting Wizard create an abomation that's LA +2. Apparently we have a great index of the old WotC threads here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444041-Threads-from-the-Wizards-forums).

[The Glyphstone]

The Immortals Handbook is the product of strapping boxing gloves to an epileptic monkey, sitting it down in front of a typewriter for a few hours, then putting the results through an editing pass to format the random strings of numbers into monster stat blocks.

[Sword-Geass]

*On the other hand, it's CR 9721, for some stupid reason (almost 40 times higher than its HD, with LA +17 427!?). If you don't have +300 UMD at that point, I don't know what you're doing with your skill points.

Well, obviously I have been allocating every single one of them in Craft (basketweaving) and other of it's usuful variations!


http://www.somethingawful.com/dungeons-and-dragons/epic-level-insanity/1/

I still remember when I first read that, such a good read. :smallbiggrin:

Onto the Immortals Handbook... well, the designer thought that rolling hundreds of numbers was "epic" so he went wild with cuadratic calculations and... that's it.
Still there is one good thing which you can take from the immortals handbook that is actually good: his take on metamagic for epic levels. But that isn't in the bestiary one, and I don't remember in which book of the series was it, neither I have them to check. What I do remeber was that instead of having Improved metamagic reduce the level of all metamagics by one it was actually a replacement for Auto Quicken/Still/Silent (forget about Still and Silent, just think about quicken), it gave you a "free" metamagic adjustment per turn. It also made spells that were quickened completely with that free adjustment a free action instead of a swift, as a replacement for Multispell. That was a nice idea he had, but there isn't anything else to it.

[Necromancy]

You can use any of the autohit abilities in the game to circumvent that. Such as Limited Wish or Surge of Fortune.



Properly stacked Hulking Hurlers begin throwing moons and doing equivalent damage. Properly stacked chargers deal damage preferably expressed in scientific notation. Once you stack enough multipliers, 2 million is frankly quite tame by level 20.

EDIT: Apparently current non-infinite damage world record is (2.5*10^36530)^^73600 - much bigger than we have named numbers for (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6571.0). There are also infinite damage comboes (easiest being the 1d2 Crusader), infinite stats (original Pun-Pun started with these) and so on. Basically, if you want to, you can bend the system over backwards to do pretty much whatever you want.

Am I reading this right? Making a million clones doesn't make a one shot. Not sure this method could even bypass DR

Also is there a reliable immunity to divine damage?

[Doc_Maynot]

Also is there a reliable immunity to divine damage?

Well, an extremely cheesy way is to take a level in the Pugilist Fighter alt class (Dragon Magazine #???, the first 3.5 one) and take the ability that lets them arguably take "all damage as nonlethal" due to it's wording. Then, be a warforged and take the feat making you immune to nonlethal damage. Boom, immune to all damage.

Alternatively, there's always the making an ice assassin of an aleax of yourself before true mind switching with them. Which, makes one unkillable.

[Eldariel]

Am I reading this right? Making a million clones doesn't make a one shot. Not sure this method could even bypass DR

You misunderstand the basic idea of the build. The Body Outside Body loop, Blood of the Martyr and Fate Links are used to maximize the damage dealt to the caster himself, who is under Delay Death (and thus cannot die). The caster turns into Jovoc [MMII] with Shapechange and then Sphere of Ultimate Destruction [Unapproachable East] blasts the whole bunch for ~1200 damage which the various links deal to the caster giving us astronomical damage. Jovocs have an ability called "Retributive Aura [Su]" which says:

"This effect is always active in a 30-foot spread centered on the jovoc. Whenever the creature takes damage from any source, every nontanar'ri within the area immediately takes an equal amount of damage. A successful Fortitude-save halves the damage. [b]Regardless of the source of the damage to the jovoc, the damage dealt to the nontanar'ri by this effect is not subject to negation or reduction because of resistance, immunity, damage reduction, spell resistance, or the like."

As Neutronium Golem is not a tanar'ri (Demon), none of its immunities matter. As it's not immune to death or damage, it will die - its HP and hardness (which is probably ignored anyways) are so low that they don't even register as a blip compared to the damage thrown around. Though frankly, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction pales in comparison to the Neutronium Golem's ability to obliterate itself: just do the prep (all in one round), teleport the whole posse next to the Neutronium Golem and you'll all be subjected to ~31k damage which will result in a slightly larger amount of damage off the Retributive Aura.


Of course, e.g. Tauric stack of a Hulking Hurler or a fully stacked Charger build could likewise deal enough damage to obliterate it. Sadly I can't find threads statting a kitted out Charger out and I'm not going to do it myself here as it would take way too long.


Also is there a reliable immunity to divine damage?

I don't think there's anything special to divine damage. Regeneration probably works - I don't have Immortals Handbook handy so I can't be sure if it has some rulings to counter that but at least bogstandard Flamestrike divine damage is subjected to regeneration. Regen converts all damage into non-lethal. Then you just get immunity to non-lethal damage through Favor of the Martyr [Spell Compendium], Gheden [Dragon Magazine 313] or some such. However, even if it doesn't, the build above already uses Delay Death [Spell Compendium] which means it doesn't matter how much and what type of damage you take, as long as the spell is active you'll be fine (and when it ends, the easy option is just getting right up with Contingent Revivify or something - though you generally don't have to worry about that if you just persist the spell).

[Necromancy]

*shrug*

I've little experience with 3.5 at high levels. I just know most "optimized" characters at the high level range look like Rube Goldberg designed them.

[Eldariel]

*shrug*

I've little experience with 3.5 at high levels. I just know most "optimized" characters at the high level range look like Rube Goldberg designed them.

Well, the core aspect of high optimization is the ability to access a broad range of buffs and persist them, potentially further while protecting oneself with an antimagic field (that is, an AMF that keeps all your buffs thus also protecting your buffs from hostile magic). Thus, thanks to the array of spells in the system, you can essentially become immune to most things. The other is ways to mess with actions: immediate action turns, action loops, free action effects (contingencies), etc. This moves the game away from big numbers and more towards trying to find gaps in the opponent's armor/trying to hit a single point hard enough to pierce the immunities in place (Jovoc is a classic case of a very solid tool to get through immunities).

[Telok]

You have any suggestions for a non-loophole kill?

A mount with Teleport, some decent perception modifiers, a chunk of Strength, a butter knife, and the feat Martial Study (Mountain Hammer).

If you can't afford to be strong then be smart, a typical epic level caster ought to be immune it unless it can punch people from across planar boundaries.