Extraplanar BBEG

[MrStabby]

So I am running a campaign where the main antagonist is from another plane.

Looking ahead I am seeing a problem. If the antagonist comes to the players then banishment is an incredibly powerful spell. If they remain on their own plane then they can be gated into an ambush.

So far there are three solutions I can think of.

1) End the campaign before level 9 spells
2) Promote the antagonist to planar ruler status
3) Give antagonist a magic item to prevent these spells working

1 seems restrictive and limiting, 2 kind of works but may require a bit of rework on the background, 3 is functionally fine but seems a little bit deus ex as a save for them.


Regarding banishment, it is also a big challenge. Sure the antagonist can return eventually but it pretty much limits the threat of the antagonist on another plane. As it is, the guy has massive charisma so between advantage on save vs spells, legendary saves and that he should be pretty secure, but some of his henchlings may net be.

Has anyone experienced these challenges before and has any tips?

[pwykersotz]

I like the idea of a Ring of Dimension Lock or somesuch. As an item, it can be manipulated. The players can attempt to pilfer it, destroy it, and it gets dropped as loot if they win. It's a hindrance that can be overcome, which is good.

[Naanomi]

Have it work through minions; let them banish it a few times ; but set the final encounter on it's home turf. Bonus points if it then banishes the PCs

[MrStabby]

I like the idea of a Ring of Dimension Lock or somesuch. As an item, it can be manipulated. The players can attempt to pilfer it, destroy it, and it gets dropped as loot if they win. It's a hindrance that can be overcome, which is good.

Interesting, I had kind of ruled this out as being a bit cheesy. Player casts gate, "no, no, my magic super-boss has a special magic item that stops that". Although if people were happy with this happening in a game against them I might revisit it. I suspect it would appear more fair if they got information about the existence of the item well in advance.


Have it work through minions; let them banish it a few times ; but set the final encounter on it's home turf. Bonus points if it then banishes the PCs

Banishing the PCs from its own turf is harsh as they will have to find their way back. The PCs have had banishment used against them before but it was on their own plane. I had, on the other hand, considered the final confrontation to be initiated by gating the players to the abyss.

[SLIMEPRIEST]

Two ideas.

Maguffin style: give bbeg a bunch of followers or cultists. They love him. The thing they want most is for him to be with them in our world. They build expensive idols of him and sacrifice, do rituals or pray for him to join them. Powered by their devotions these idols prevent him from being banished. If they want to banish him, the pcs can either get the idols (made of treasure) or kill all cultists to weaken the power of the idols.

Punish laziness style: make sure that bbeg's machinations and influence extend deep into the world. After the pcs banish him, his plans continue unabated. While the pcs are patting themselves on the back, the plans slowly come to fruition. Thousands of innocents are killed because the pcs couldn't finish the job.

No reason you can't use both actually. After struggling and finally banishing bbeg, the pcs realize they made a mistake and one spell is just not going to solve their problems.

[Dark Ass4ssin 1]

You could make the item a well known 'artifact' that would give this guy over powering presence in the material plane (or all planes if this is a "fate of the multiverse" kinda story). When he gets the item it is viewed by the masses as an insurmountable obstacle that makes stopping him seem impossible.

This method would establish how he got such an item, and make it so much more epic when the heros beat him. Him getting this item could be something you go in depth with on a quest or something, and the players know the severity of the consequences of him getting this item beforehand. This would make for a heartbreaking mini arc that would shell shock everybody at the table if you play it up enough.

[pwykersotz]

You could also use Contingency (or simple real-world scenarios such as a trusted lieutenant keeping watch) as a dead-man switch of sorts, where plane shifting or banishing the BBEG causes more problems than it solves. Then advertise that fact.

[TheFlyingCleric]

A clever BBEG should be preparing contingencies against their weaknesses. Doubly so if that weakness has been exploited in the past. In this case, their major weakness is Banishment...

There are several ways in which you can counter Banishment.
- You can stop if before it starts by using counterspell, or some means of automatically passing the save.
- After that, you can return the BBEG by ending the spell before the 1 minute is up. The obvious method is breaking the caster's concentration, but there are others. Dispel Magic is especially powerful; after being banished, the BBEG can simply cast dispel magic of an equal level to the banishment targeting themselves, the spell ends and they return.
- You can also give them some means of simply coming back immediately.

Try not to arbitrarily punish spellcasters for using their spells. Although you don't want banishment to trivialize your encounter, making it completely useless is less than kind to the forward-thinking spellcaster who prepared Banishment every single day in anticipation of the battle with the BBEG.
There should be a weakness, a way for the players to counter the counter. Fair's fair.

[MrStabby]

You could also use Contingency (or simple real-world scenarios such as a trusted lieutenant keeping watch) as a dead-man switch of sorts, where plane shifting or banishing the BBEG causes more problems than it solves. Then advertise that fact.


Contingency is great. My one reservation about it is that the guy the party just defeated made heavy use of them and glyphs as his MO (coupled with a lot of scrying). It works, but doesn't differentiate so well here.


A clever BBEG should be preparing contingencies against their weaknesses. Doubly so if that weakness has been exploited in the past. In this case, their major weakness is Banishment...

There are several ways in which you can counter Banishment.
- You can stop if before it starts by using counterspell, or some means of automatically passing the save.
- After that, you can return the BBEG by ending the spell before the 1 minute is up. The obvious method is breaking the caster's concentration, but there are others. Dispel Magic is especially powerful; after being banished, the BBEG can simply cast dispel magic of an equal level to the banishment targeting themselves, the spell ends and they return.
- You can also give them some means of simply coming back immediately.

Try not to arbitrarily punish spellcasters for using their spells. Although you don't want banishment to trivialize your encounter, making it completely useless is less than kind to the forward-thinking spellcaster who prepared Banishment every single day in anticipation of the battle with the BBEG.
There should be a weakness, a way for the players to counter the counter. Fair's fair.

Counterspell works but the others don't really work so well. Concentration isn't an issue, as it is from outside the plane, so just gone (frankly i couldn't care so much about banishment if they were from the same plane, hence the whole thread). Even if they were not banished to a different plane the dispel magic wouldn't work as they are incapacitated whilst gone.


The bit about punishing spellcasters for their spells - this is exactly what I am trying to avoid. This is why I am talking about telegraphing to the players that some of these spells won't work to they don't feel cheated if they prepare them for an encounter or have the BBEG advance to be ruler of their plane. To be honest I am not sure if selecting banishment every day is forward thinking. Does any caster who knows the spell ever not prepare it?

What I wan't is to create a somewhat self aware antagonist that recognises their own weaknesses and has taken steps to mitigate them. Possibly a more general anti-teleport field might work. No planar travel (so no gate, banishment, ethereal), no misty step, dimension door or shadow-monk teleport. Make it an item than can be wrestled from the bad guy so it can be removed to open up more tactical options. As an implicit ability I can work it into the legends that the players come across so it is a surprise to no one.

[RickAllison]

Contingency is great. My one reservation about it is that the guy the party just defeated made heavy use of them and glyphs as his MO (coupled with a lot of scrying). It works, but doesn't differentiate so well here.



Counterspell works but the others don't really work so well. Concentration isn't an issue, as it is from outside the plane, so just gone (frankly i couldn't care so much about banishment if they were from the same plane, hence the whole thread). Even if they were not banished to a different plane the dispel magic wouldn't work as they are incapacitated whilst gone.


The bit about punishing spellcasters for their spells - this is exactly what I am trying to avoid. This is why I am talking about telegraphing to the players that some of these spells won't work to they don't feel cheated if they prepare them for an encounter or have the BBEG advance to be ruler of their plane. To be honest I am not sure if selecting banishment every day is forward thinking. Does any caster who knows the spell ever not prepare it?

What I wan't is to create a somewhat self aware antagonist that recognises their own weaknesses and has taken steps to mitigate them. Possibly a more general anti-teleport field might work. No planar travel (so no gate, banishment, ethereal), no misty step, dimension door or shadow-monk teleport. Make it an item than can be wrestled from the bad guy so it can be removed to open up more tactical options. As an implicit ability I can work it into the legends that the players come across so it is a surprise to no one.

How about a double on the other side, specially enchanted to enter the material plane when its master is Banished. The players get to actually succeed on Banishing him, but are faced with a different threat.

For extra points, make a Rinzler-sequel double who is really a mind-controlled hero of legend.

[MrStabby]

How about a double on the other side, specially enchanted to enter the material plane when its master is Banished. The players get to actually succeed on Banishing him, but are faced with a different threat.

For extra points, make a Rinzler-sequel double who is really a mind-controlled hero of legend.

Hmm. Thats good.

I am wondering if i can make the guy out of lots of little guys so only bits of him get banished?

[RickAllison]

Hmm. Thats good.

I am wondering if i can make the guy out of lots of little guys so only bits of him get banished?

That seems a little cheap. However, having the party see swarming creatures that eventually reform as him could let their spell function while letting him come back quickly.

[MrStabby]

That seems a little cheap. However, having the party see swarming creatures that eventually reform as him could let their spell function while letting him come back quickly.

So I might be able to give the guy sentient weapons - two swords and then have them remain animated whilst he is gone (if he is). That gives the party something to fight. Then cause whatever plain he is in to begin to become part of the abyss so he can return there.

[Osrogue]

The BBEG has high charisma, and knows plane shift/has access to plane shift. You got rid of him for potentially a day. He'll be back.

Other than that, isn't that what legendary resistance for?

[Bubzors]

The BBEG has high charisma, and knows plane shift/has access to plane shift. You got rid of him for potentially a day. He'll be back.

Other than that, isn't that what legendary resistance for?

This and as others have said. If he truly is an extra planar bad ass with world ending campaign ambitions, being sent back home shouldn't be that big of a setback. Yea the PC's may win that day, but he will be back and now with a huge grudge against those who dared to stand up to him.

Actually this could work well. Before the first time they fight him, the BBEG may not have even bothered to take notice. After being banished and having his plans interrupted, he will look at them with rage and maybe a little respect. Now the next time they encounter him, he has advanced his plans and made precautions to stop being banished so easily again.

Makes sense in the narrative too so the PC's get to feel cool for using it the first time, but then realize they didn't really solve the problem and will have further trouble with the strategy later.

[Regitnui]

Has nobody mentioned how Gods are the bet solution for this? Let's take Glasya, Asmodeus' daughter, as our BBEG. Why wouldn't she have trusted mortal agents doing most of the humdrum, recruiting, searching and seducing noble heroes that her plot requires, only coming to the mortal plane herself when it's time to conference with the leaders or reap the benefits? She can be the BBEG without placing herself in a position where she's vulnerable to banishment and overeager adventurers who can't appreciate her beauty.

[MrStabby]

Has nobody mentioned how Gods are the bet solution for this? Let's take Glasya, Asmodeus' daughter, as our BBEG. Why wouldn't she have trusted mortal agents doing most of the humdrum, recruiting, searching and seducing noble heroes that her plot requires, only coming to the mortal plane herself when it's time to conference with the leaders or reap the benefits? She can be the BBEG without placing herself in a position where she's vulnerable to banishment and overeager adventurers who can't appreciate her beauty.

Indeed, although banishment is only the smaller issue - it was gate that was the major concern. The ability to hire 1000 archers in an amphitheatre, traps, spells glyphs and prepared actions can trivialise what should be a climactic final encounter. Unfortunately I have already disclosed the identity of the antagonist.

[Gastronomie]

What about the antagonist has bended the laws of his own existence so he's now a new native of the material plane?

If such thing is even possible. But it does sound badass.

[Regitnui]

Indeed, although banishment is only the smaller issue - it was gate that was the major concern. The ability to hire 1000 archers in an amphitheatre, traps, spells glyphs and prepared actions can trivialise what should be a climactic final encounter. Unfortunately I have already disclosed the identity of the antagonist.

It was just an example, but the extraplanar BBEG should be able to operate through intermediaries, if necessary.

[pwykersotz]

Indeed, although banishment is only the smaller issue - it was gate that was the major concern. The ability to hire 1000 archers in an amphitheatre, traps, spells glyphs and prepared actions can trivialise what should be a climactic final encounter. Unfortunately I have already disclosed the identity of the antagonist.

That one is solved if you allow him to come through with Resilient Sphere active. And it's not an expensive or unreasonable precaution to take for a BBEG of this level either.

Edit:

Besides that, this is a narrative issue, not a mechanics one. Every one of those 1000 archers is a man or woman with dreams, ambitions, goals, and temptations. Every one of those glyphs takes time to scribe, and concentrated magic of that nature has attracted terrible things before. And the villain isn't new to this stuff, he's the big bad for a reason. He is probably using counter-intelligence to understand what is going on.

Can the PC's really trust those archers, or will some of them sow confusion or perhaps aim at the PC's instead, having their true loyalty bought by the BBEG who promises to resurrect a few long dead lovers or children?

What if, in an ironic twist, as the party is halfway through, one of them vanishes? The villain has used Gate himself and has his own army waiting?

There's lots of ways this could go down. The NPC's are yours to control, and this stuff can make the story even greater. And if the PC's think to do counter-counter intelligence and figure these out, that's great! They've truly earned their victory at that point.

[JackPhoenix]

Indeed, although banishment is only the smaller issue - it was gate that was the major concern. The ability to hire 1000 archers in an amphitheatre, traps, spells glyphs and prepared actions can trivialise what should be a climactic final encounter. Unfortunately I have already disclosed the identity of the antagonist.

Thing is... you can kill a demon or devil (any outsider, really) only on his home plane. The 1000 archers? You've only managed to stall the BBEG for a while, before he reforms and is able to return. He'll just work through his minions in the meantime (he's got minions, right?) And sure, you've bought yourself some time... but unless the BBEG is stupid, the characters are risking that they'll end up at the other side of that setup, summoned one by one by a BBEG and an army of his minions.

Would you really want to give the BBEG ideas?

[Rysto]

If the BBEG suspects that a Banishment is coming, it seems that some illusions could be a good investment. Make a mook look huge and terrifying, and if the PCs hit him with the spell without being cautious first, then they'll have learned something. Make sure that you give them a fair chance to see through the illusion. If you can find a way for the PCs to run into some illusions on the way to the BBEG, to give them a clue that he's using them, that would be good.

[Mr.Moron]

Just level with them directly: "Hey because of this campaign's villain focus is an extra planar dude, and banishment is an instant win against them it's gonna be a problem for this campaign in ways it isn't for others. So rather than contrive some kind of workaround or simply resign the game to be about <dude> playing "Avoid the banishment" lets just not have that spell be a thing this time around."

The rules should work in service of the game you're trying to have. With banishment in this situation the game is very much about one single spell that one or two players have and the baddie trying avoid getting tagged by that one action. It reduces the important and relevance of the other players and gives the game a narrow focus.

It is also very much just one spell and removing it is hardly gutting the game or re-writing the engine. I think a straightforward "Hey. This one small part of the game could make a bigger more important part of the game much, much harder to work with" is hardly going to meet much resistance for most groups. At the end of the day players want an exciting boss battle with their BBEG, not a single party member imposing a single save.

Same reason it would be sensible to leave Teleport out of a game about high-seas adventures.

[Envyus]

A can't see ether as a problem. Most Extraplanar big baddies have high Charisma saves and magic resistance for advantage on the save. If they are supposed to be a main villain then them having Legendary Resistance is a given.

If the villain is a planar ruler and controls their own plane, or layer then they can say no to Gate. Even if they are not. Gate requires that you know the name of the creature being gated. Titles, nicknames and Pseudonyms do not work. Most Planer creatures don't go by their true name purely so this does not happen.

[Regitnui]

A good example of an extra planar BBEG is the quori of Eberron; they work by possessing willing targets, which makes them hard enough to get rid of. However, even if you do banish the quori, the host still thinks and acts like the quori anyway, so you've just temporarily moved the true mastermind back to Dal Quor. The quori can then spend the time in Dal Quor observing the fight and returning with more plans.

[Segev]

Just as your PCs probably put up anti-instant-death-effect magics when they go into battle at high level, have your BBEG put up dimensional anchor or similar to protect himself from banishment. He can't be gated in if he's on the same plane as the PCs, so no traps there. Banishment forbids return even by summoning/calling for a time, so they can't banish then gate him in quick succession. And I don't think anything compels an entity to come through the gate if it makes a saving throw (which is why gateing in minions is risky if you don't have a good relationship with them; you could wind up with nothing for your trouble of spending a 9th level spell slot).

[Osrogue]

Solutions for gate:

1. The BBEG can only be killed on his home plane.

2. plane shift

3. More importantly, and the most interesting part is that you need the creature's true name for the summoning aspect of the spell to work.

If the players want to take him out with gate and a prepared strike force or small army they've gathered ahead of time, (because 1000 people is hard to pull together on short noticed), and have overcome any disruptions the BBEG has put into motion, AND discovered the big bad evil guy's true name through some means, then yeah, I think they earned it.

[Envyus]

Solutions for gate:

1. The BBEG can only be killed on his home plane.

2. plane shift

3. More importantly, and the most interesting part is that you need the creature's true name for the summoning aspect of the spell to work.

If the players want to take him out with gate and a prepared strike force or small army they've gathered ahead of time, (because 1000 people is hard to pull together on short noticed), and have overcome any disruptions the BBEG has put into motion, AND discovered the big bad evil guy's true name through some means, then yeah, I think they earned it.

Most BBEG's from the planes are immune to normal weapons as well. So good chance that the 1000 people can't do squat.

[Envyus]

Who is the villain anyway. You have hinted he is from the Abyss. If this is the case then he is immune to Gate by default. As no Demon goes by their true name, and if he is a Demon Lord then he is a planar ruler and can just say no to Gate working on him.