Silvanesti Duelist Build Help

[LoyalPaladin]

Hello all,
My build schizophrenia is kicking in and I'm having a really hard time building a character. I want to play a duelist archetype character. Note, this does not have to contain duelist levels. I've tried all kinds of ideas here, but for some reason this isn't sticking with me.

Goals for this build are:

Einhander type duelist.
Wields Elven Thinblade
Dex/Int based
Mobile


Requirements:

Silvanesti Elf (Dragonlance Campaign Setting)
No Flaws
32 Point Buy
Low-to-no cheese.
ECL 15


This is a Dragonlance game. So I need to do decent damage and hopefully don't get eaten alive by every creature that has wings and a breath weapon. Also, flat footing a dragon is pretty useless in terms of increasing your chance to hit.

[Snowbluff]

I nominate Ranger4/RogueX

Distracting Attack Ranger (PHBII)for the easy flank, and then Penetrating Strike Rogue (Dungeonscape), which synergizes with that flanking ACF for always at least 1/2 sneak attack damage.

If feeling cheeky, you can do Swift Ambusher, grabbing some scout for skirmishing bonuses added to the build.

[LoyalPaladin]

I nominate Ranger4/RogueX

Distracting Attack Ranger (PHBII)for the easy flank, and then Penetrating Strike Rogue (Dungeonscape), which synergizes with that flanking ACF for always at least 1/2 sneak attack damage.

If feeling cheeky, you can do Swift Ambusher, grabbing some scout for skirmishing bonuses added to the build.
Hmm. That could work... Is it possible to play a dex based Robilar's Gambit build that is super hard to hit? I'm AFB so I can't check, but do you have to be hit to get your AoO?

[Snowbluff]

Hmm. That could work... Is it possible to play a dex based Robilar's Gambit build that is super hard to hit? I'm AFB so I can't check, but do you have to be hit to get your AoO?
they are traitors
Rolibar's Gambit is if you are attacked, Karmic is if you are hit. You can combine the two for maximum AoO, but that's a lot of penalties. :smallwink:
no heart no soul no trust
Maxing out AC isn't so hard. Einhander helps, so does a shield/cloak. Combat Expertise for it's intented purpose functions here as well. I htink Penetrating Strike works with Craven, if yo uare interested. Of course, Staggering Strike provides some kind control.
do no run from my embrace. it's crushing and painful but the pressure is all that protects you from the vacuum. without me your heart would explode.
LP, nobody has posted. That means no one cares for you. Do you know how you know if someone cares for you. That's if they post on your threads. Only I care for you LP. Don't trust the others.
https://67.media.tumblr.com/f9ff811677aff7a31155983820a795ac/tumblr_nln4ggbIqK1rydwbvo1_500.gif

[Blackhawk748]

LP, nobody has posted. That means no one cares for you. Do you know how you know if someone cares for you. That's if they post on your threads. Only I care for you LP. Don't trust the others.
https://67.media.tumblr.com/f9ff811677aff7a31155983820a795ac/tumblr_nln4ggbIqK1rydwbvo1_500.gif

Bloody Yandere subtext.....

Anyway, i actually got to play this, so i can say that it works rather well in actual gameplay, though i used a Lesser Tiefling.

Rogue1/Swashbuckler 1/Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler 2/Rogue 2/Assassin (or Avenger) 9/ *Something Else, probably more Swordsage* 4

You'll get Int to damage which is great, but since you're using a Thinblade you wont be able to use Shadow Blade, unless you slap Aptitude on it (and you may want to, as its a fairly sizable damage boost.)

Honestly the core of the build is Swashbuckler/Swordsage/Rogue with Assassin (or Avenger) simply being a convenient secondary reason to pump Int, what with the Death Attack and Spells...

An easier build is Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 7/Eternal Blade 10. Grab some Tiger Claw maneuvers (not all of them require two weapons) and some Diamond Mind and go to town.

[LoyalPaladin]

Rolibar's Gambit is if you are attacked, Karmic is if you are hit. You can combine the two for maximum AoO, but that's a lot of penalties. :smallwink:

Maxing out AC isn't so hard. Einhander helps, so does a shield/cloak. Combat Expertise for it's intented purpose functions here as well. I htink Penetrating Strike works with Craven, if yo uare interested. Of course, Staggering Strike provides some kind control.
Maybe a really high AC AoO Einhander build? Is that possible?


LP, nobody has posted. That means no one cares for you. Do you know how you know if someone cares for you. That's if they post on your threads. Only I care for you LP. Don't trust the others.

Yeah, seriously. Must be Red Fel's doing.



they are traitors
no heart no soul no trust
do no run from my embrace. it's crushing and painful but the pressure is all that protects you from the vacuum. without me your heart would explode.
https://67.media.tumblr.com/f9ff811677aff7a31155983820a795ac/tumblr_nln4ggbIqK1rydwbvo1_500.gif
How about no...
https://67.media.tumblr.com/85b4bfc3e4951f2748fa361e9396dea6/tumblr_o0gc0jBP2M1v48sxio1_500.gif

[Snowbluff]

Maybe a really high AC AoO Einhander build? Is that possible?
It's the basis of Jack B. Quick. Of course, he used Double Hit to hit back twice, and then used High Sword Low Axe. Like I said, single hand builds are used for AC optimization.


Yeah, seriously. Must be Red Fel's doing.
I am not capable of creating my own beauty? There's no need to play coy when it's just us.


How about no...
https://67.media.tumblr.com/85b4bfc3e4951f2748fa361e9396dea6/tumblr_o0gc0jBP2M1v48sxio1_500.gif
But there is so much you can give me in return. It's a symbiotic relationship.
http://k39.kn3.net/taringa/2/1/1/4/2/3/20/cyan_miku/F06.gif?4695

[Blackhawk748]

There's no need to play coy when it's just us.

Im right here you frozen ninny!!!

https://media.giphy.com/media/l0NwOkgTYRi30mT4Y/giphy.gif

[Snowbluff]

Im right here you frozen ninny!!!

https://media.giphy.com/media/l0NwOkgTYRi30mT4Y/giphy.gif
Ssshhh. I cannot hear those who cannot listen. Soon it will be your time. Mortals are defined by their ability to only last a short time.

But that is a quite a bit of dipping. How does that work out?

[LoyalPaladin]

It's the basis of Jack B. Quick. Of course, he used Double Hit to hit back twice, and then used High Sword Low Axe. Like I said, single hand builds are used for AC optimization.
I'm assuming that means I'd have to use an axe. That's not very elfy.


I am not capable of creating my own beauty? There's no need to play coy when it's just us.
Shh. It's okay.


But there is so much you can give me in return. It's a symbiotic relationship.
http://k39.kn3.net/taringa/2/1/1/4/2/3/20/cyan_miku/F06.gif?4695
I prefer my symbiotic relations to be used for good.
https://66.media.tumblr.com/9dcb936ffbdda23379d8a45d5820126e/tumblr_n4ehynhAvk1su78bpo1_500.gif


Im right here you frozen ninny!!!
Oh, thank Torm. Someone came.

[Blackhawk748]

But that is a quite a bit of dipping. How does that work out?

Surprisingly well. I used it in RHoD and i hit quite reliably and was killing things consistently even without Sneak Attack. Once Death Attack comes online you just instagib the enemy caster and then start murdering whatever is left. Worked like a charm.


Oh, thank Torm. Someone came.

I've been herte for 45 minutes!! Bloody Paladins and their lack of perception skills.....

[Snowbluff]

I'm assuming that means I'd have to use an axe. That's not very elfy. Double Aptitude thinlbades?



I prefer my symbiotic relations to be used for food. I can make it food.


Surprisingly well. I used it in RHoD and i hit quite reliably and was killing things consistently even without Sneak Attack. Once Death Attack comes online you just instagib the enemy caster and then start murdering whatever is left. Worked like a charm. Huh. Interesting. BAB must be a mess, though. Fractional?


I've been herte for 45 minutes!! Bloody Paladins and their lack of perception skills.....

I'm sorry, but my prey is a little slow. It makes them easy pickings.

[Blackhawk748]

Huh. Interesting. BAB must be a mess, though. Fractional?

Nope, just sucked up having lousy BaB at 6th level. Did help that i had a 20 Dex.

[LoyalPaladin]

I've been herte for 45 minutes!! Bloody Paladins and their lack of perception skills.....
I have a... +2....


Double Aptitude thinlbades?
That's a no go. My table has a special dislike for aptitude after I abused it on some hand crossbows...

So basically, looking for a one-handed elven thinblade that has rediculously high ac and abuses Robilars? Help? Once we move to Dex builds, I lose most of my own system mastery haha.

[Snowbluff]

That's a no go. My table has a special dislike for aptitude after I abused it on some hand crossbows...
It wasn't me this time?! I must try harder...
http://upic.me/i/tx/kurumi-angry.gif


So basically, looking for a one-handed elven thinblade that has rediculously high ac and abuses Robilars? Help? Once we move to Dex builds, I lose most of my own system mastery haha.

1) Take Weapon Finesse
2) Give up.

combat Expertise and maybe... Law Devotion? Protection Devotion. It's not dex you're optimizing past the SA and Combat Reflexes.

[LoyalPaladin]

It wasn't me this time?! I must try harder...
http://upic.me/i/tx/kurumi-angry.gif
Believe it or not, it was actually Blackhawk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19002727&postcount=3).


1) Take Weapon Finesse
2) Give up.
This is because I forsook casting, isn't it?


combat Expertise and maybe... Law Devotion? Protection Devotion. It's not dex you're optimizing past the SA and Combat Reflexes.
Isn't there a way to do it with Swashbuckler/Duelist?

[Blackhawk748]

Believe it or not, it was actually Blackhawk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19002727&postcount=3).

Isn't there a way to do it with Swashbuckler/Duelist?

I am not liable for thrown DMGs.

Yes, but it makes me want to hurl as it caps your Int to AC bonus at Duelist Levels, and duelist is frankly crap. So ya, nab Law Devotion (as you can flip that to a bonus on attack if you need to) get some Mithral Tessellated Fullplate, pump your Dex, and go stab stuff.

Oh and you can Power Attack with a Thinblade, not saying you should, but is an option.

[LoyalPaladin]

I am not liable for thrown DMGs.

Yes, but it makes me want to hurl as it caps your Int to AC bonus at Duelist Levels, and duelist is frankly crap. So ya, nab Law Devotion (as you can flip that to a bonus on attack if you need to) get some Mithral Tessellated Fullplate, pump your Dex, and go stab stuff.

Oh and you can Power Attack with a Thinblade, not saying you should, but is an option.
I had ToB thrown at me. Not figuratively, literally.

I'm surprised Law Devotion doesn't restrict you to lawful haha. What's the source on the tessellated full plate?

So let's assume Base 10 AC, +10 from dex, +10 from int, +2 from einhander, +13 from armor +6 Bracers of Armor, +5 Ring of Protection, +1 from Dodge, and +2 dodge from Swashbuckler? Wait no. I can't wear armor as a duelist, which is lame. So lemme scratch that and replace it with +6 Bracers of Armor... Total that looks like 46 AC? Maybe another +5 from a defending weapon for 51? Can we do better!? I'll have a -4 from Robilars to bump be back down to 47!

Edit:
I forgot to count Elaborate Parry (+10), Fighting Defensively (+2), and Combat Expertise (+5), so I could reach a total of 63 AC when in Robilar's Gambit. But I'd be taking a -9 to hit, -14 if you count Defending...

[ILM]

I theorybuilt a character once aiming for max AC and one-handed slaying. It's tremendously feat-expensive so it's a bit of a mess: Kalashtar Swashbuckler 3/ Roghe 1/ Monk (Cobra Strike, Decisive Strike variants) 2/ Fighter 2 (Hit and Run)/ Duelist 10/ Warblade 2.

Main feats were Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit, Einhander, Dancing with Shadows, Stormguard Warrior, Carmendine Monk, Improved Combat Expertise and Craven.

The idea is to stack Int to everything and get all the buffs to fighting on the defensive. Also, the interaction of Dancing with Shadows, Stormguard Warrior, Robilar's and Decisive Strike gives the build some decent damage output as long as enemies are kind enough not to use anything that can be defeated with high AC (<- you see where the problem lies): Graceful Lunge boosts the attack bonus, Combat Rhythm and Robilar's give bonuses to damage, doubled with Decisive Strike. A Blurstrike weapon makes the enemy flat-footed for extra damage (Hit and Run, Craven).

Fun, I guess, but certainly limited in real play.

edit: the build gets 18 BAB, Dex to AC, Dex to damage vs. flat-footed, 2x Int to AC, Int to damage, +16 AC when fighting on the defensive (for a -4 penalty), Improved Combat Expertise, and whatever armor/shield/deflection/natural/etc. bonuses you can get to AC since all the above are unnamed.

[LoyalPaladin]

Bloody Yandere subtext.....
Somehow I just saw this post.


Anyway, i actually got to play this, so i can say that it works rather well in actual gameplay, though i used a Lesser Tiefling.

Rogue1/Swashbuckler 1/Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler 2/Rogue 2/Assassin (or Avenger) 9/ *Something Else, probably more Swordsage* 4
All those one level dips are going to get me smote. This DM is pretty old school and too much optimization is how you wind up fighting dragons alone...


You'll get Int to damage which is great, but since you're using a Thinblade you wont be able to use Shadow Blade, unless you slap Aptitude on it (and you may want to, as its a fairly sizable damage boost.)
That's a sad day. I want Aptitude, but my table is so stingy about it now haha.


An easier build is Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 7/Eternal Blade 10. Grab some Tiger Claw maneuvers (not all of them require two weapons) and some Diamond Mind and go to town.
I'll look into this...


The idea is to stack Int to everything and get all the buffs to fighting on the defensive. Also, the interaction of Dancing with Shadows, Stormguard Warrior, Robilar's and Decisive Strike gives the build some decent damage output as long as enemies are kind enough not to use anything that can be defeated with high AC (<- you see where the problem lies): Graceful Lunge boosts the attack bonus, Combat Rhythm and Robilar's give bonuses to damage, doubled with Decisive Strike. A Blurstrike weapon makes the enemy flat-footed for extra damage (Hit and Run, Craven).
I'm already super short on feats, with no flaws. This is a cool build, though!

[Blackhawk748]

Its sounding like the Swashbuckler/Warblade/Eternal Blade is gonna be your best bet, mostly because its only 2 base classes and a Prestige class, so your DM wont chuck a book at you.

[Snowbluff]

Believe it or not, it was actually Blackhawk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19002727&postcount=3). So I I kill him I will be in the lead?



This is because I forsook casting, isn't it? There are 1000 Sins of the Loyal Paladin. Shall I list them all?



Isn't there a way to do it with Swashbuckler/Duelist?

As we've said, if you want to suck.

If you're doing the Eternal Blade thing, Pearl of Black Doubt is a good stance to improve AC. I was avoiding ToB because I know your group can be touchy. For the record my build was 2 base classes from the PHB.

You can do the other route. Take Rolibars and Karmic Strike, but instead of maxing out AC, you trick out a strong DR and Hardness score. If you are attacked, one hit, and if take the hit, you shrug it off and hit again.

A Phoenix Cloak would help, as it would halve the damage. Retributive Amulet is good here too.

[LoyalPaladin]

So I I kill him I will be in the lead?
I don't think that's how that works...


There are 1000 Sins of the Loyal Paladin. Shall I list them all?
How many sins of the Snowbluff are there..?


As we've said, if you want to suck.
A 36 point-buy with 2 flaws one isn't awful. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=856942) Still not great. But it matches this table's usual optimization level... Here is how the LP plays D&D, I am in 3 groups (which all consist of the same people, so it might be more accurate to say 3 games). Group 1 is on Saturday and I'm currently not playing in it because 5e is the pits and I play too much D&D. Group 2 and 3 alternate weeks on Wednesdays. The OP level of group 2 is really high and 3 is medium to high, but group 1... the OP level is more like medium-low to low. The sheet I linked is for 2 or 3's OP level character creation guidelines, but without flaws and the 36 PB it's above the OP level of group 1.


If you're doing the Eternal Blade thing, Pearl of Black Doubt is a good stance to improve AC. I was avoiding ToB because I know your group can be touchy. For the record my build was 2 base classes from the PHB.
Yeah. Group 1 is the one that is touchy about ToB. The DM is awesome and he wouldn't ever outright ban a class (though he'd ban DMZ and variants) or printed feats. But you don't need a good sense motive or spot to tell that ToB, DMM, and high optimization bother him. He also uses HeroForge, which none of us really like anymore after I showed them the light from on high (Myth-Weavers).


You can do the other route. Take Rolibars and Karmic Strike, but instead of maxing out AC, you trick out a strong DR and Hardness score. If you are attacked, one hit, and if take the hit, you shrug it off and hit again.

A Phoenix Cloak would help, as it would halve the damage. Retributive Amulet is good here too.[/QUOTE]
That sort of kills the aesthetic that is the dexterous dodgy duelist.

I will look into the Phoenix Cloak, though. I'm currently sporting a Cloak of the Manta right now, for the nat. armor bonus of +3. Retributive Amulet can't replace Dragonfly Amulet, it's way too good for someone who can't afford Improved Initiative.

[Snowbluff]

I don't think that's how that works... What, do you give out awards posthumously? How inhumane.



How many sins of the Snowbluff are there..?
Well, uh, zero. I can't actually sin under my own cult. That would be silly.
http://img-cache.cdn.gaiaonline.com/b24c4a449cc9d08095e73ab187904c55/http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/Blondie6449/Unknown%20Artist/Tokisaki%20Kurumi/tumblr_mst2vwvv7z1r1n9qco3_250_zpsw6kx1kuy.gif


A 36 point-buy with 2 flaws one isn't awful. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=856942) Still not great. But it matches this table's usual optimization level... Here is how the LP plays D&D, I am in 3 groups (which all consist of the same people, so it might be more accurate to say 3 games). Group 1 is on Saturday and I'm currently not playing in it because 5e is the pits and I play too much D&D. Group 2 and 3 alternate weeks on Wednesdays. The OP level of group 2 is really high and 3 is medium to high, but group 1... the OP level is more like medium-low to low. The sheet I linked is for 2 or 3's OP level character creation guidelines, but without flaws and the 36 PB it's above the OP level of group 1.

I'd say use the Fighter Counter Attack ACF, but then I remembered that it sucked.


Yeah. Group 1 is the one that is touchy about ToB. The DM is awesome and he wouldn't ever outright ban a class (though he'd ban DMZ and variants) or printed feats. But you don't need a good sense motive or spot to tell that ToB, DMM, and high optimization bother him. He also uses HeroForge, which none of us really like anymore after I showed them the light from on high (Myth-Weavers). I can't keep this straight. .-.




That sort of kills the aesthetic that is the dexterous dodgy duelist. Pfft, whatever mate. I was thinking the same thing, but I thought I would throw it out there.


I will look into the Phoenix Cloak, though. I'm currently sporting a Cloak of the Manta right now, for the nat. armor bonus of +3. Retributive Amulet can't replace Dragonfly Amulet, it's way too good for someone who can't afford Improved Initiative.

Yah, well you can attach nat armor to another item, per the MIC. Also, Dragonfly Medallion blows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items), a +1 warning Spiked Gauntlet is better.

[LoyalPaladin]

I'd say use the Fighter Counter Attack ACF, but then I remembered that it sucked.
Yeah...


I can't keep this straight. .-.
... And then Peggy said... Oh, we're done here?


Pfft, whatever mate. I was thinking the same thing, but I thought I would throw it out there.
Thank you for your contribution.


Yah, well you can attach nat armor to another item, per the MIC. Also, Dragonfly Medallion blows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items), a +1 warning Spiked Gauntlet is better.
That's true. I just don't want to have that discussion with this DM haha. I could put warning on my thinblade.

[Snowbluff]

Thank you for your contribution. You're very welcome.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bAiIre_Jr-Q/Vq9k7C6D3BI/AAAAAAAACd0/gp1BAEkv_8A/w500-h281/kurumi%2Btokisaki%2Bgif%2B5.gif


That's true. I just don't want to have that discussion with this DM haha. I could put warning on my thinblade.

Of course, if you're doing the dodgy duelist thing, you could do all of the above, and add a competence bonus, like a belt of battle, and a luck bonus, like Sandal of the Vagabond to the mix. Overall I think that would fit more with the theme than the Retributive Amulet, which was more ofr the Karmic Strike build.

[LoyalPaladin]

Of course, if you're doing the dodgy duelist thing, you could do all of the above, and add a competence bonus, like a belt of battle, and a luck bonus, like Sandal of the Vagabond to the mix. Overall I think that would fit more with the theme than the Retributive Amulet, which was more ofr the Karmic Strike build.
Yeah, I don't want to assume I'll have WBL and the items I want. So here's (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=854747) what I have...

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, I don't want to assume I'll have WBL and the items I want. So here's (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=854747) what I have...

No wbl makes me sad.

Hmph, while I don't like the Duelist, your AC will be sky high when fighting defensively. I'd say slap on War Devotion but Law Devotion is just better.

You might want to think about improved your attack bonus, if you can. You can't tank it too much if you want to hit with Rolibar's Gambit.

Finally, there has not been enough attention paid to me and my gifs!
https://38.media.tumblr.com/a6e7bc01b6b913f8719d1392a34169e6/tumblr_my8lx6atAu1r9b5wlo1_500.gif
Oh did I mention I got to see my cat last night!