Chnapy
2016-06-23, 05:36 PM
A good day to all of you tall folk in the playground, and a question too :
I've been looking at the rage power Animal fury recently and was surprised by its wording :
While raging, the barbarian gains a bite attack. If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at the barbarian's full base attack bonus –5. If the bite hits, it deals 1d4 points of damage (assuming the barbarian is Medium; 1d3 points of damage if Small) plus half the barbarian's Strength modifier. A barbarian can make a bite attack as part of the action to maintain or break free from a grapple. This attack is resolved before the grapple check is made. If the bite attack hits, any grapple checks made by the barbarian against the target this round are at a +2 bonus.
I was looking for a way to get a good bite attack that would not be tied to race and was really taken aback when it was pointed out to me that the Animal Fury bite was secondary.
Except, is it really? Nowhere does it says so in the description. Instead, we have specific rules for specific cases, rules that seem to make it act like a secondary attack. I take from that that it is a primary natural attack (which bites are by default) that acts like a secondary NA in some specific cases. I thought i'd outline how this bite performs in most cases compared to both kind of attacks :
NB : what follows relies heavily on the rules for standard natural weapons(d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks) and the Multiattack monster feat (d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/multiattack-combat). You might want to read both before going further.
When using this bite in a standard attack, if it is the user's only natural attack :
Primary NA : Full to hit, 1.5 strength to damage
Secondary NA : Full to hit, 1.5 strength to damage
Animal Fury bite : Full to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
When using this bite either with or without another bite (somehow), if the user has only bites as their natural attacks (again, somehow)
Primary NA : Full to hit, 1 strength to damage
Secondary NA : Full to hit, 1 strength to damage
Animal Fury bite : Full to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
When using this bite in a standard attack, if the user has other, non-bites NA :
Primary NA : Full to hit, 1.0 strength to damage
Secondary NA : -5 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
Animal Fury bite : Full to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
When using this bite in a full attack, using only natural attacks, without multiattack :
Primary NA : Full to hit, 1.0 strength to damage
Secondary NA : -5 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
Animal Fury bite : -5 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
When using this bite in a full attack, using manufactured weapons, without multiattack :
Primary NA : -5 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
Secondary NA : -5 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
Animal Fury bite : -5 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
When using this bite in a full attack, using only natural attacks, with multiattack :
Primary NA : Full to hit, 1.0 strength to damage
Secondary NA : -2 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
Animal Fury bite : -5 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
When using this bite in a full attack, using manufactured weapons, with multiattack :
Primary NA : -2 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
Secondary NA : -2 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
Animal Fury bite : -5 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
Now as I said, I'm a bit confused about this feat, so while that is what I think is the RAW I'm open to any corrections you'd want to make.
As it stands, the results I'm getting are mostly based on a couple assumptions :
_The entirety of the feat description is more specific than the entirety of the natural attacks rules. It's what seemed logical to me but maybe the parts of the general rules that only applies in specific cases are more specific? I honestly don't know.
_The -5 to hit only applies during full attacks but the half strength to damage is always on. This is based on the fact that they are stated in different sentences and are respectively tied to "When used as part of a full attack" (alone) and "If the bite hits" (along with damage dice).
_The -5 to hit is not tied to secondary NA (because well, nowhere does it says it is) and as such isn't reduced by Multiattack (which only states that "secondary attacks" have their penalty reduced.
I haven't been able to find an errata for this feat so I assume that we still have to use this mess of a description to this day. I'd be most happy to have missed one though =D.
Also, while not an errata per se, the unchained barbarian comes with its own animal fury which is the following :
The barbarian gains a bite attack. This is a primary natural attack that deals 1d4 points of damage (if the barbarian is Medium; 1d3 if the barbarian is Small) plus the barbarian's Strength modifier. If made as part of a full-attack action with manufactured weapons, the bite attack is made at the barbarian's full base attack bonus – 5, and she adds only 1/2 her Strength modifier to the damage roll. The barbarian can make a bite attack as part of the action to maintain or break free from a grapple. If the bite attack hits, grapple checks attempted by the barbarian against the target until the end of the round gain a +2 bonus.
So the bite is undeniably a primary attack, and the full-attack bit was changed so that instead of contradicting the general rule it is merely redundant (both damage and to hit penalty tied to the same trigger which is a full attack with manufactured weapons)
So my questions are (at last!) :
Do you agree with me as for how this bite works as per the sacrosanct RAW?
And considering how byzantine a system it is, how would you rule it? RAW, primary, or secondary?
I've been looking at the rage power Animal fury recently and was surprised by its wording :
While raging, the barbarian gains a bite attack. If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at the barbarian's full base attack bonus –5. If the bite hits, it deals 1d4 points of damage (assuming the barbarian is Medium; 1d3 points of damage if Small) plus half the barbarian's Strength modifier. A barbarian can make a bite attack as part of the action to maintain or break free from a grapple. This attack is resolved before the grapple check is made. If the bite attack hits, any grapple checks made by the barbarian against the target this round are at a +2 bonus.
I was looking for a way to get a good bite attack that would not be tied to race and was really taken aback when it was pointed out to me that the Animal Fury bite was secondary.
Except, is it really? Nowhere does it says so in the description. Instead, we have specific rules for specific cases, rules that seem to make it act like a secondary attack. I take from that that it is a primary natural attack (which bites are by default) that acts like a secondary NA in some specific cases. I thought i'd outline how this bite performs in most cases compared to both kind of attacks :
NB : what follows relies heavily on the rules for standard natural weapons(d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks) and the Multiattack monster feat (d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/multiattack-combat). You might want to read both before going further.
When using this bite in a standard attack, if it is the user's only natural attack :
Primary NA : Full to hit, 1.5 strength to damage
Secondary NA : Full to hit, 1.5 strength to damage
Animal Fury bite : Full to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
When using this bite either with or without another bite (somehow), if the user has only bites as their natural attacks (again, somehow)
Primary NA : Full to hit, 1 strength to damage
Secondary NA : Full to hit, 1 strength to damage
Animal Fury bite : Full to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
When using this bite in a standard attack, if the user has other, non-bites NA :
Primary NA : Full to hit, 1.0 strength to damage
Secondary NA : -5 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
Animal Fury bite : Full to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
When using this bite in a full attack, using only natural attacks, without multiattack :
Primary NA : Full to hit, 1.0 strength to damage
Secondary NA : -5 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
Animal Fury bite : -5 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
When using this bite in a full attack, using manufactured weapons, without multiattack :
Primary NA : -5 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
Secondary NA : -5 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
Animal Fury bite : -5 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
When using this bite in a full attack, using only natural attacks, with multiattack :
Primary NA : Full to hit, 1.0 strength to damage
Secondary NA : -2 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
Animal Fury bite : -5 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
When using this bite in a full attack, using manufactured weapons, with multiattack :
Primary NA : -2 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
Secondary NA : -2 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
Animal Fury bite : -5 to hit, 0.5 strength to damage
Now as I said, I'm a bit confused about this feat, so while that is what I think is the RAW I'm open to any corrections you'd want to make.
As it stands, the results I'm getting are mostly based on a couple assumptions :
_The entirety of the feat description is more specific than the entirety of the natural attacks rules. It's what seemed logical to me but maybe the parts of the general rules that only applies in specific cases are more specific? I honestly don't know.
_The -5 to hit only applies during full attacks but the half strength to damage is always on. This is based on the fact that they are stated in different sentences and are respectively tied to "When used as part of a full attack" (alone) and "If the bite hits" (along with damage dice).
_The -5 to hit is not tied to secondary NA (because well, nowhere does it says it is) and as such isn't reduced by Multiattack (which only states that "secondary attacks" have their penalty reduced.
I haven't been able to find an errata for this feat so I assume that we still have to use this mess of a description to this day. I'd be most happy to have missed one though =D.
Also, while not an errata per se, the unchained barbarian comes with its own animal fury which is the following :
The barbarian gains a bite attack. This is a primary natural attack that deals 1d4 points of damage (if the barbarian is Medium; 1d3 if the barbarian is Small) plus the barbarian's Strength modifier. If made as part of a full-attack action with manufactured weapons, the bite attack is made at the barbarian's full base attack bonus – 5, and she adds only 1/2 her Strength modifier to the damage roll. The barbarian can make a bite attack as part of the action to maintain or break free from a grapple. If the bite attack hits, grapple checks attempted by the barbarian against the target until the end of the round gain a +2 bonus.
So the bite is undeniably a primary attack, and the full-attack bit was changed so that instead of contradicting the general rule it is merely redundant (both damage and to hit penalty tied to the same trigger which is a full attack with manufactured weapons)
So my questions are (at last!) :
Do you agree with me as for how this bite works as per the sacrosanct RAW?
And considering how byzantine a system it is, how would you rule it? RAW, primary, or secondary?