Stone Age Campaign - balancing spell-casters

[Master Giillo]

Hi guys,

I've been working on a Stone Age setting for D&D 3.5.
I'm mostly happy with what I've got so far but am having trouble coming up with a way to balance spell-casters.
As it's set in ancient times, metal armour and weapons are unavailable. As such, melee-based classes are reduced in effectiveness because their weapons and armour are crude and fragile.
I need a way to sufficiently balance the spell-casting classes (e.g. sorcerers) so that they're not too overpowered.
So far, I've only come up with reducing the spell lists by excluding a bunch of spells that wouldn't exist or be known in a Stone Age setting. (e.g. anything that involves writing or outer planes)

I played around with the idea that material spell components would have to be foraged for but I feel like it will create too much minutia.
Any ideas/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Also, if you want to suggest anything about the setting in general, I'm open to discussion.

[DodgerH2O]

First, don't expect to balance spell-casting with "mundane" classes without a lot of work and/or homebrew.

But what I'd suggest first and foremost is free "upgrades" to stone-age weapons and armor to where they are not reduced in effectiveness. Say thick hide armor gives the AC bonus of half plate. A stone-tipped axe does the same damage as a core game steel axe would. Recalibrate the fluff, keep the mechanics.

Maybe to keep the flavor have them break more easily, but it will not be likely to contribute to the enjoyment of your players or the balance of the game to have suboptimal gear.

Also enchanted stone/bone/wood weapons and armor don't have to be crude and fragile. Sure it's just a wooden club, but that +x reflects the blessing of the totem spirit and allows it to withstand blows that would shatter normal wood.

[Master Giillo]

First, don't expect to balance spell-casting with "mundane" classes without a lot of work and/or homebrew.

But what I'd suggest first and foremost is free "upgrades" to stone-age weapons and armor to where they are not reduced in effectiveness. Say thick hide armor gives the AC bonus of half plate. A stone-tipped axe does the same damage as a core game steel axe would. Recalibrate the fluff, keep the mechanics.

Maybe to keep the flavor have them break more easily, but it will not be likely to contribute to the enjoyment of your players or the balance of the game to have suboptimal gear.

Also enchanted stone/bone/wood weapons and armor don't have to be crude and fragile. Sure it's just a wooden club, but that +x reflects the blessing of the totem spirit and allows it to withstand blows that would shatter normal wood.

Thanks for the quick response. I definitely don't expect to balance spell-casting with mundane. I meant it in a way that I've reduced the effectiveness of the mundane classes and needed to scale spell-casting down too.
I am planning for characters to advance their weapons and armour based on the resources they find/hunt. And yes, they will be easily breakable but - due to the crude construction - easily repairable too. But I still want them to struggle a little for resources/life. It's going to be more of a survival-based game than a grand adventure.

[EldritchWeaver]

I would recommend to use Spheres of Power as an alternative magic system. My post about toning down spellcasters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20891659&postcount=84) and possibly the rest of that thread has more information what options are there.

[gtwucla]

In the setting as described, I would honestly go with one of two things. Make it an entirely spellcasting centric game; as in players choose from a bunch of spellcasting classes. Or tone down the magic entirely by making each spell ritual based or something like that. For example, to cast a spell to increase strength and stamina the character is required to sit down, draw a circle or something and spend the next 10 minutes casting the spell. Then for the next hour he is stronger and more resilient. Both those options require a ton of work, however, figuring out what sort of magic system you want, but at least you'd have a central theme. So if you wanted a quick fix, instead of going through and banning a bunch of spells you could just make pare down the amount of classes available, like melee type characters and half casters like paladins and rangers (and maybe re-flavor them?).

[noce]

In Frostburn there are several exotic primitive weapons. In a primitive campaign, those weapons should be martial instead.
Also, in Races of Stone there are exotic armors made from stone or mammuth pelt. Make them non exotic aswell.

[Bullet06320]

as far as the stone age weapons and armors go
From to Stone to Steel is a good resource
https://www.amazon.com/Stone-Steel-OP-Aaron-Stimson/dp/0972819711/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1466762271&sr=8-1&keywords=stone+to+steel

Dragon Magazine 319 also has rules for bone, stone and other primitive weapon and armor materials, its a darksun article, but would work for your purposes

for spellcasters limiting to adepts and shamans might be the way to go, with a heavily restricted spell list, picking and choosing from the druid and ranger list as well.
increasing casting time, limiting metamagic, and making sure spell components are included. doubling research time for new spells, using alternative spellbooks instead of traditional paper books.

stoneage society is generally hunter/gatherer and most knowledge is oral tradition, with limited writing available, making everyone illiterate would go along way for flavor

[Diovid]

For a Stone Age Campaign I'd argue for a very limited class list. Something like:

Fighter
Rogue (Wilderness Rogue probably)
Barbarian
Ranger
Bard (Savage Bard specifically, possibly in combination with other bard variants)
Scout

I know there are more natural / feral / wild variants for the Paladin and Monk in dragon mags.

Totemist might be another contender.

In this case spellcasters are auto-balanced because savage bards are the only spellcasters that exist.

[noce]

For a Stone Age Campaign I'd argue for a very limited class list. Something like:

Fighter
Rogue (Wilderness Rogue probably)
Barbarian
Ranger
Bard (Savage Bard specifically, possibly in combination with other bard variants)
Scout

I know there are more natural / feral / wild variants for the Paladin and Monk in dragon mags.

Totemist might be another contender.

In this case spellcasters are auto-balanced because savage bards are the only spellcasters that exist.

Totemists are just plainly coherent with the campaign.
Evil and Chaotic incarnates are just as rightfully so.
Sorcerer too, spontaneous casters can happen in stone age aswell. Maybe the battle variant, since it's reasonable to be sturdier in such a world.
And druids, obviously.

Warlocks, Binders, Wilders, Warblades, Dragon Shamans, Favored Souls, Hexblades, Beguilers. Pretty much any class that doesn't need excessive mental or physical training, or a strong civilization, can fit in the setting pretty well imo.

[prufock]

You've depowered the already weaker classes, so altering existing spellcasters for balance would be a long and arduous task. I would suggest simple elimination. The wildshape ranger (or mystic ranger) is a reasonable analogue for druid, paladin or healer replaces cleric (though that may require further altering for flavour), wilder replaces psion, focused spellcasters (dread necro, beguiler, warmage, etc) instead of sorcerers/wizards, and just forget artificer exists.

[Khedrac]

There's a fairly easy way to make spellcasting much more limited.. Spell Components.

First off remove the Spell Component Pouch and the Eschew Materials feat.
Then enforce components and material foci..

Lots of spells will simply be uncastable as the component will not exist in a stone-age game.
Spells with components will become more of a question - is this worth casting, will I be able to get more X?
Only spells without components (e.g. magic missile) will be the go-to casting choices.

[Sian]

wilder replaces psion

This wouldn't really help, as they are roughly equal in strength, wilder only have a slightly smaller subset of a smaller pool of choices (as they can't specialize) ... But they make up for it in a couple of different ways

[prufock]

This wouldn't really help, as they are roughly equal in strength, wilder only have a slightly smaller subset of a smaller pool of choices (as they can't specialize) ... But they make up for it in a couple of different ways
Wilders are commonly thought to be tier 3, though, precisely because of their limited known list. They still get high level powers, just not a lot of them. It may depend on what level you're playing at; they definitely skirt the edge of tier 2 at least. Similar logic could be used for the fixed-list casters - they still get high-level spells. If we really want to limit them a bit more, you could fairly easily tack on the bard's spell progression to any full caster, capping them off at level 6 spells. You could similarly give the psion the psychic warrior's progression.

[Yogibear41]

Warrior types can eventually get around the draw backs of using stone weapons by upgrading to things such as the Dragonbased arms and armors. Additionally the mention of the exotic weapons in Frostburn + other books are good. I think the bone bow is actually a pretty great weapon IMO. For things like wizards, they won't have access to paper so will have to use other materials for spellbooks, I think complete arcane/complete mage has the info on those. Generally they are sturdier but alot heavier/bulkier so finding ways to carry them around at lower levels might prove challenging especially if they have a lower strength score.

At lower levels I think you can make it pretty balanced, but once you reach higher levels the casters will probably always pull ahead, although some of the Mundanes weakness's in the equipment area can be taken care of by then anyway.

Alot of it also depends on the nature of the setting as well, will it be mostly dinosaurs/savage humanoids? or will things like fey, undead, and other DND monsters be around as well?

[Wonton]

It's a bit extreme, but you could restrict people to only 2/3 and 1/2 casting classes. So, Bard, Paladin, Ranger (I don't remember what else 3.5 had, PF has Alchemist, Warpriest, etc). So, magic still exists, but only to a maximum of 6th-level spells. It would still need some tuning on individual spells probably, but it would also open up some underused classes to more use, rather than just seeing your game overrun by Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Druid.

Or make everyone that wants to play a spellcaster play Shugenja. That'll deter em. :smallbiggrin:

[ExLibrisMortis]

For each class, take the spell list, randomly select 20-50% of the spells, and put them in a new list. Each player then adds one spell of each level to each list. Those lists becomes the spell lists for their respective classes: those are the spells generally known to the people of this world.

[mabriss lethe]

Binders,Warlocks, and DFAs make for good primary casters in a more primitive setting. Bards should probably remain as well.

In a lot of primitive cultures, items with ritual significance are very common. Magic items would be very prevalent in this sort of game world. so much that you might consider altering the item creation rules to make it so that any class can potentially make them. The items created by non-casters would most likely be minor, but useful. (maybe use 1/2 HD in place of caster level for non-casters to meet basic requirements, and replace spell requirements with a spellcraft, knowledge (arcana), or UMD check.) Scrolls would be replaced by something more in keeping with the setting.

Consider making it a gestalt game, or barring that, grant racial bonuses to primitive skills. Individuals within Neolithic cultures had to master a wide range of practical survival skills: Crafting pretty much everything from tools to cordage, weapons, pottery, shelter, basic wound care, gathering food and materials, simple farming, hunting, trapping, occasionally boatmaking, land or sea navigation.

[Troacctid]

Arms & Equipment Guide has a section on Stone Age and Bronze Age weapons and armor and materials.

[VoxRationis]

I'd restrict spell selections, or slow down caster level/spell level progression. Nix any metamagic feats or effects, and be prepared to okay/veto spells on a case-by-case basis, trying to shift spell lists towards what is simple, direct, and thematic rather than mechanically powerful.

[Nousos]

Honestly I would "balance" it by using shugenja as the only 9th casters. Spirit themed spells that are pretty weak compared to most, albeit a few gems. A spell level behind wizards, and the equivalents they get of common strong wiz/sorc spells are often received late. Add or ban spells as needed but its a pretty basic list unless you use Rokugan setting books, which contain almost all SR:yes and save targeting spells.

[Pugwampy]

I dont think there is a balance problem but this depends on your spell casters choice of magic .

If we talking pure damage spells which most actually do , well thats just under powered because every DM past ten years age doubles or triples hit points of monsters .

I suppose save or suck spells are most troublesome but just add in iron will , lightning reflexes or some such to your beasties .