[3.5] Gods, Archfiends, Elder Evils and Epic Monsters

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

In the great cosmology of D&D, what is the pecking order of the most powerful beings in existence?

Is it simply a case of highest CR = toughest dude?

Do Gods get some extra oomph from Divine Ranks?

All thoughts welcome.

Cheers - T

[Andezzar]

Is it simply a case of highest CR = toughest dude?Basically yes, with the caveat that the CR system is pretty flawed.


Do Gods get some extra oomph from Divine Ranks?Yup (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineRanksPowers.htm). There is also this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#salientDivineAbilities).

[Yogibear41]

Depends on your campaign setting IMO. CR and stat blocks be darned, I'd say that for the most part Deities are the strongest, but at the same time if they were that much stronger than the Archifiends/Elder Evils they probably would have destroyed them, or at least their is a reason they can't destroy them. Perhaps the Deities are supremely more powerful, but cannot interact directly with the material plane, or other planes in the case of Archfiends, so they cannot fully act on their wishes for the mortal realm and that is why they have followers to channel their power into and do their will.

I can't imagine that any deity would really benefit much from having all of creation wiped out by one of the Elder Evils, so most if not all of them would want the thing stopped, clearly if 4-5 deities if not an entire pantheon of 10+ wanted 1 high CR monster wiped out they could easily do it themselves unless something prevented them from doing so.


The Midnight Campaign setting has something similar to this, one of the evil gods got cast down to the mortal realm, and put a huge dent in his power, but in doing so the other gods were locked out of the mortal realm, so one basically unstoppable by mortal standards guy took over the entire world and is gathering power in an attempt to try to return to the realm of the gods and reclaim his lost power more or less. But the other gods are unable to reach the mortal plane and intervene, they can't even grant spells to their clerics, etc. anymore.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Elder evils are campaign enders almost by definition - CR ~20, but killable by PCs. They tend to be individually powerful, and immune or highly resistant to the usual ways of fighting cosmic evil (divine power, for instance), which explains why the PCs must kill them manually. On the other hand, elder evils tend to have few connections or supporters, which explains why they aren't running the place.

Archfiends and deities wield much more political power, and have many followers (some have infinite followers), so they are running the place. Archfiends also wield great personal power, but tend to be more 'usual', fighting eachother on even, PC-familiar terms, and so do deities (amongst similar-ranked deities). Deific power can hard counter certain mundane magic, such as antimagic fields, so they tend to be stronger than archfiends, but the Pact Primeval grants devils some protection, as I suppose the Abyss as a whole does to demons.

I would put the ranking as Deity > Archfiend > Elder Evil, in terms of general power, with the note that in individual combat, elder evils can sometimes beat archfiends and deities, if they have the specific ability to hard-counter that deity/fiend's tricks.

[Belzyk]

As far as I know in the great wheel the most powerful being is The Lady of Pain followed by either a. The over deity or b. The time lords (using that alternative crap)

Edit. Also the Dimensional Master Ala DM is the creator of all. And he only answers to Wide Origin Theobald Cosmos.

[ShurikVch]

Abyss is alive and sentient.
Show me who in official books may be able to kill it?
For comparison: single attack of Abyss killed whole pantheon of deities...

[Jowgen]

If Afro had a thread going, that would be the place to ask this. And get horribly rebuffed, because this sort of question has popped up so much in his threads, he is now far from fond of them (to put it mildly).

Now, as per my understanding, it works out as follows:

-Deities of lesser rank and above flat out win in terms of personal power. Put them and an Archfiend or Arch-Celestial on neutral ground to battle, and the deity won't even break a sweat. In their own Divine realms, most significant deities are all but untouchable, due to the control they have over it. Simply sending in an army for Fiends likely won't do much. However, deities are generally limited to affecting the Material Plane through intermediaries (i.e. cleric); because those are the gentlemen's-agreement Divine Compact rules, by which the deities do their work (whoever breaks the rules gets ganged up on, basically. See Tharduzin.)

-Archfiends, as well as the top celestials and other exemplar races, win in terms of military power. Leading the exemplar races, they have effectively unlimited numbers at their disposal with which to control their home planes. Also, those exemplars who stand at the top of their plane (or layer) have a significant portion of control over it, which serves as a significant defense against Deities. It's not the same full-blown defense a divine realm grants its deity, but its enough to explain in fluff why deities don't just take over the layers where their divine realms are.

-Elder Evils don't really factor in much. They are generally ancient/special beings of significant power that just so happen to have the very particular ability to be flat out immune to the powers of the deities. They generally stand alone, never change, and thus, while they are destructive, they are generally easy to "contain", as in, keep from doing any real damage.

This all boils down to the balance of power that is the outer planes. Everyone's home-advantages make it night impossible for anyone to win in direct confrontation. A deity can't walk into an Arch-Fiend's house and kill him any more than the arch-Fiends's army has any chance of actually conquering that Deity's divine realm. Both occasionally glance at Elder Evils, the irregular piece, but they almost matter less than Vestiges.

The one and only place that thus really matters, is the Material Plane. That is where the Souls and the Worship come from, and those two fuel just about everything.

[AslanCross]

Elder Evils tend to be a threat to the material plane, but not to the gods themselves. The only exception to this seems to be Pandorym, which is supposed to be an anti-pantheon superweapon. It currently exists with its mind split from its body: Its body is a gigantic sphere of annihilation that cannot be controlled by any means (talismans will just cause it to move toward you; rods of cancellation will simply fizzle and cause the sphere to engulf you), while its mind is currently imprisoned in a vast crystal.

The mind itself cannot be fought (if it's completely released, it's game over too), but a fragment of its mind that escapes from the chipped crystal prison is already a CR 25 psionic incorporeal horror that pretty much serves as a black hole for divine magic.

Pandorym's true abilities are not statted, with the book flat out saying that if it recombines, it's game over.

Kyuss is not particularly powerful, but the ritual to awaken it involves dropping a sphere of annihilation into a well of many worlds, so while the Elder Evil itself is not that horrible, a reality-consuming black hole will destroy all existence (including, presumably the gods) anyway.

[Gildedragon]

And within deities their comparative power is uncertain
Wee Jas, for example, pretends to be much weaker than she is by storing a sizeable portion of her divine ranks within her domain. In part because it helps her keep a low profile with other entities and so as not to start a pissing match with other gods about portfolios and the like.

[Thurbane]

How do Epic Monsters (both singular types and species), and Epic Characters, figure into all of this?

I hear so many Epic games centered around killing deities, it must happen sometimes.

[Gildedragon]

How do Epic Monsters (both singular types and species), and Epic Characters, figure into all of this?

I hear so many Epic games centered around killing deities, it must happen sometimes.

DM > Epic PCs >>> Everything Else

Epic NPCs <= Gods in general

[AslanCross]

How do Epic Monsters (both singular types and species), and Epic Characters, figure into all of this?

I hear so many Epic games centered around killing deities, it must happen sometimes.

This is pretty much what happens on a strikingly regular basis in the canon of Forgotten Realms.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dead_Three

[Darth Ultron]

It does really depend on how you define ''power''.

First off CR has nothing to do with anything and you really, really need to step back from the ''encounter and NPC rules''....and really the rules in general.

OK.

A standard cosmology has the gods at the top. Though there are ranks of godhood and their are often older more powerful ''elder gods''.

Archdevils, demon princes, archfey and all the lot are just under this.

Elder evils would come next, followed by epic monsters and then just powerful normal monsters.

But it does all get blurry, depending on what you think ''power'' is. Being A can do ''1d100 damage!" and Being B has a +100 to all knowledge checks. So who is ''more powerful''? Being A would win in a child like fight ''I hit you and win, haha", but B sure would ''win'' a lot more at life in general.

And this is where the game rules just break down and don't work. Just take a powerful being and even just 100 years of history. What did they do for 100 years? Even if you say they only ''went up a level'' every other year...they would still be 50th level. Even if they were ''only'' 20th level they would be very powerful. And then add in creating or gaining magic items or effects.

And then you get the really hard to apply stuff like ''The god Zom has his epic level cleric make an epic level item and place it in a hidden spot.'' So, now, Zom has an epic level magic item. Or even just powerful normal items.

And you get the really hard to apply stuff that just goes way beyond the rules. Like ''Zom mates with a couple female orcs...and now can control all the generations of descendant orcs''.

[trikkydik]

Thurbane,

Are you running a campaign that is strictly gods and deities? if youre looking for epic monsters check out tarrasque, pit feind, greater elementals, Beholders are interesting, any dragon really can be retrofitted into a humanoid. Can you be more specific about your question?

[Thurbane]

Thurbane,

Are you running a campaign that is strictly gods and deities? if youre looking for epic monsters check out tarrasque, pit feind, greater elementals, Beholders are interesting, any dragon really can be retrofitted into a humanoid. Can you be more specific about your question?

Just wondering about people's games in general.

My campaign world does not include epic levels as such, but I am thinking about wrapping up my campaign with an Elder Evil plotline when the characters get to high enough levels...

[trikkydik]

Just wondering about people's games in general.

My campaign world does not include epic levels as such, but I am thinking about wrapping up my campaign with an Elder Evil plotline when the characters get to high enough levels...

Sounds like how my last game ended. though i dont remember what happened, it was over 8 year ago.

I think if you give them split morale decisions that lean them towards good or evil, that will give you a better idea of the player's real alignment (Regardless of whats written on his character sheet.)

Then if they continuously choose to slaughter the innocent you can start throwing archons and angels and good creatures. Obviously the opposite for good choices.


It seems like youre thinking long term, smart.

[AslanCross]

Just wondering about people's games in general.

My campaign world does not include epic levels as such, but I am thinking about wrapping up my campaign with an Elder Evil plotline when the characters get to high enough levels...

The Elder Evils (in the book) tend to have specific immunities that make them anathema to divine power, but also tend to have a certain significance that makes their awakening a "game over" scenario in the first place.

The Leviathan, for example, was not statted out. Its full awakening would be cataclysmic (since it's basically buried under the entire planet). Most of the fighting is done against its aspects (which are about the same level as Great Wyrm dragons).

Atropus had an aspect you also get to fight, but Atropus itself is a moon-sized being that cannot be reasonably damaged. The build-up to the climactic battle, however, is of apocalyptic proportions to begin with, and involves an Abyssal invasion.

Other Elder Evils (Father Llymic, Jenova Ragnorra, and the Hulks of Zoretha) are much lower in CR and exist in a form that can be slain. They can, however, still cause a campaign-ending apocalypse.

[Honest Tiefling]

Depends on your campaign setting IMO.

Yeah, I think this is the best response. Yogibear goes on to say that deities tend to be on the top, and I think that works well for a campaign setting in most cases. But I think there's nothing wrong with changing it up to suit you. If you want to run an Elder Evils game, then by golly, they should be the worst thing to encounter ever.

For my own games, I don't really play with the DnD cosmology very often. I very rarely play with alignment, so archdevils and fiends stop making sense. A lot of gods get to summon devils anyway, so why not make archfiends into evil gods?

Haven't played much with Elder Evils. I think because the games rarely get to a level where that would be feasible in the slightest.

[Hurnn]

I think Gods > Arch Fiends / Exemplars > elder evils is generally correct, with things getting blurry at the borders. Some lesser and demi-gods would probably get spanked by the top tier arch fiends and their like, and the low end arch fiends would get crushed buy a couple of the elder evils.

As an aside I always felt the the Arch fiends and their ilk probably should have had divine ranks when you look at their powers and abilities. Some of them are doing things that are up to DR 11.

I have also toyed with the idea of a campaign where there were no arch fiends and the like and all the power outsiders just worked for the gods directly LE gods had devils CE demons etc. I also considered the reverse no gods and the Arch fiends and what not were the top of the food chain.